Sinn Fein vs Sieg Heil - Spot the Difference

[Myles Na G.]

'which is wide of the mark - the fact you got tanned in the 'debate'
or that it was you that brought up joyce?'
Therein lies your problem - you think everything is a 'fact', or that something has been 'demonstrated' simply because you say so. Scary. 

[020304 Tir Eoghain]

Myles Na G. when you get to my age a couple of decades seem like a couple of years! It was 1974 or 1975
i think the ceremony took place.

[deiseach]

Myles Na G. when you get to my age a couple of decades seem like a couple of years! It was 1974 or 1975
i think the ceremony took place.

My grandmother would occasionally refer to the Christmas where her next door neighbour died as evidence of why she wasn't that fond of Christmas - reminded her of who was gone, which in her case (she died last November aged 103) was everybody. A few years back I asked here when that happened and she said "15 or 20 years ago". I was skeptical and asked my uncle, who replied "1957".

[Donagh]

And anyway as its been explained many times on this thread, Germany and Ireland has a common enemy at the time. I see no problem with Russell dealing with the Nazi's. The same way as i see no problem with Churchill dealing with uncle Joe.

Indeed. Russell also visited the US and USSR in his attempt to raise support for the republican cause and was supportive of his friend Frank Ryan fighting the fascists in Spain. Foreign wars were of no concern to him, though the thread does reminds me of our old next door neighbour who used to tell us how she'd make a point of breaking the blackouts in Lurgan in the hope of guiding the German bombers to Belfast.

[Evil Genius]

Russell also visited the US and USSR in his attempt to raise support for the republican cause and was supportive of his friend Frank Ryan fighting the fascists in Spain. Foreign wars were of no concern to him, though the thread does reminds me of our old next door neighbour who used to tell us how she'd make a point of breaking the blackouts in Lurgan in the hope of guiding the German bombers to Belfast.

The difference is that Russell did not assist either the USA or USSR in their war effort, in return for any assistance gained from them.

Whereas, by actively collaborating with the Nazis, Russell and the IRA inter alia  assisted the Luftwaffe directly in bombing their own fellow Irish men, women and children in Belfast and elsewhere.

P.S. Your neighbour sounds like a right nasty oul  c u n t.

[full back]

Russell also visited the US and USSR in his attempt to raise support for the republican cause and was supportive of his friend Frank Ryan fighting the fascists in Spain. Foreign wars were of no concern to him, though the thread does reminds me of our old next door neighbour who used to tell us how she'd make a point of breaking the blackouts in Lurgan in the hope of guiding the German bombers to Belfast.

The difference is that Russell did not assist either the USA or USSR in their war effort, in return for any assistance gained from them.

Whereas, by actively collaborating with the Nazis, Russell and the IRA inter alia  assisted the Luftwaffe directly in bombing their own fellow Irish men, women and children in Belfast and elsewhere.

P.S. Your neighbour sounds like a right nasty oul  c u n t.

I wouldnt say nasty, more brainless

*Oh yas, zer is ze light left on, zat must be Loirgan - now we know ezactly ver ze Belfast iz* 

Comic genius, comic genius

[Myles Na G.]

'Indeed. Russell also visited the US and USSR in his attempt to raise support for the republican cause and was supportive of his friend Frank Ryan fighting the fascists in Spain. Foreign wars were of no concern to him, though the thread does reminds me of our old next door neighbour who used to tell us how she'd make a point of breaking the blackouts in Lurgan in the hope of guiding the German bombers to Belfast.'

Probably not your intention, but your post speaks volumes about republicans and the republican mindset. I think you're absolutely right about Russell. I think the wider political picture was of no concern to him. I think he was genuinely incapable of looking at the world situation and making sense of it - all he cared about was taking a kick at the Brits. The wider ramifications of a Nazi victory, the morality of supporting them - all that was beyond the scope of this Little Irelander. Likewise your old neighbour. My father's family lost their house and most of their possessions during one of the bombing raids on Belfast. The house across the street from theirs took a direct hit and several people were killed. Over a 1000 people - Irish people, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, atheists - died in Belfast as a result of the raids. But that wouldn't matter to your old neighbour. As long she thought 'the Brits' were getting a pasting, she'd be happy. This is precisely why we should not allow statues of these blinkered, hate-filled morons to be erected in our parks and public spaces.

[deiseach]

I wouldnt say nasty, more brainless

*Oh yas, zer is ze light left on, zat must be Loirgan - now we know ezactly ver ze Belfast iz* 

Comic genius, comic genius

Kinda like my wife's great uncle Charles - he loved Hitler so much that he was convinced that mowing a swastika into his lawn would cause the Luftwaffe to pass him by

[Rossfan]

For the record I have no problem with extreme Nationalists putting up a Statue to a republican leader of a previous era.
And to clarify ...I have no objection to them putting up statues to leaders/activists of later eras either.

[boojangles]

'Indeed. Russell also visited the US and USSR in his attempt to raise support for the republican cause and was supportive of his friend Frank Ryan fighting the fascists in Spain. Foreign wars were of no concern to him, though the thread does reminds me of our old next door neighbour who used to tell us how she'd make a point of breaking the blackouts in Lurgan in the hope of guiding the German bombers to Belfast.'

Probably not your intention, but your post speaks volumes about republicans and the republican mindset. I think you're absolutely right about Russell. I think the wider political picture was of no concern to him. I think he was genuinely incapable of looking at the world situation and making sense of it - all he cared about was taking a kick at the Brits. The wider ramifications of a Nazi victory, the morality of supporting them - all that was beyond the scope of this Little Irelander. Likewise your old neighbour. My father's family lost their house and most of their possessions during one of the bombing raids on Belfast. The house across the street from theirs took a direct hit and several people were killed. Over a 1000 people - Irish people, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, atheists - died in Belfast as a result of the raids. But that wouldn't matter to your old neighbour. As long she thought 'the Brits' were getting a pasting, she'd be happy. This is precisely why we should not allow statues of these blinkered, hate-filled morons to be erected in our parks and public spaces.

Where did that Hate come from? Why would Russell have been filled with Hatred? 
Myles do you believe that Ireland would have 26 of its 32 Counties free if Republicans back around the the 20s had persisted with peaceful means?

[Evil Genius]

Myles do you believe that Ireland would have 26 of its 32 Counties free if Republicans back around the the 20s had persisted with peaceful means?

If I might intervene, the answer to your question would appear to be "No".

But in dealing with Russell, you and just about everyone else is missing/dodging what is for me a key point. Namely, that there were many, many thousands of Republicans who were active in the War of Independence etc.

Yet 20 years later, the vast majority of those self-same activists declined to collaborate with the Nazis in their fight against the Allies. Therefore, if Russell was right/entitled to seize the opportunity, does that mean that all the others were no longer "true" Republicans? Does it mean that having "liberated" the 26 counties, they no longer gave a damn about the 6?

And that's before you get to the many thousands of Irishmen, North and South, who actually volunteered to fight for the Allies, including some, such as Quinn Martin's grandfather, who had fought the Brits in 1920 etc.

And all of that is before you get back to what would have happened in Ireland, had Russell's Nazi friends actually won the War. For as was seen even with territories which were not actually occupied by the Germans, such as Vichy France and Italy, there is no doubt that even after any "free" and "independent" United Ireland was permitted to be established by the Germans, they would have come calling on the Dail with their lists of Irish Jews, Communists, Trades Unionists and Gypsies etc, as well as carefully selected representatives from the Unionist population of Ireland.

Then again, a ruthless sc**bag like Sean Russell doubtless didn't give a flying fcuk about any of those people, either... 

[Donagh]

The difference is that Russell did not assist either the USA or USSR in their war effort, in return for any assistance gained from them.

Whereas, by actively collaborating with the Nazis, Russell and the IRA inter alia  assisted the Luftwaffe directly in bombing their own fellow Irish men, women and children in Belfast and elsewhere.

Actually he did but I wouldn't expect you to actually inform yourself about anything before you go of on an ill-informed rant about something.

The real difference is that some of us here know more about Russell than you can ever invent or desperately glean from Wiki. Russell was no fascist, in fact I challenge you to produce any evidence that he helped the Luftwaffe bomb anywhere. If you cannot you should retract your lies, though God knows, I wonder why people even bother to reply to you any more considering the amount of bullshit you've been caught out with.

P.S. Your neighbour sounds like a right nasty oul  c u n t.

Never a better woman graced County Armagh. 

[Myles Na G.]

'Where did that Hate come from? Why would Russell have been filled with Hatred? 
Myles do you believe that Ireland would have 26 of its 32 Counties free if Republicans back around the the 20s had persisted with peaceful means?'
Who knows how things would've turned out - had the struggle for independence remained political rather physical, I think independence would undoubtedly have been delayed, possibly for decades. I think a 32 county Ireland would have gained independence at some point after the second world war, possibly with some constitutional link to Britain left in place. Whatever scenario you care to imagine, I think an independent, 32 county Ireland would have been much, much closer today had we not had the various armed campaigns that have only served to deepen the divisions in our country.

[mylestheslasher]

EG - Would you be shocked if I told you that during WW2 that Jews in Israel actually visited the Nazi's to request  help them in their fight against arabs, a fight in which they were not to bothered about human rights or murder of innocents.
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/zionist_collaboration_with_the_nazis.htm

Assuming it is true, I would find it shocking, but not surprising. After all, there are eg ultra-conservative Jews who do not recognise the State of Israel, frequently clashing violently with the IDF etc. Or there was this bunch of nutters, who are now in prison in Israel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6985808.stm

Does this mean that Israeli jews are actually anti jewish?

Of course not. It simply means that every state/tribe/religion/people etc has it share of head-cases, with that share liable to be larger in places like the Middle East (or Ireland!  ) than in more stable environments.

History is indeed a complex thing, try not to over simplify it.

History is often complex, but it is also sometimes much more simple. Which latter point brings me back to Sean Russell - for what I hope will be the final time 

Namely, when faced with a difficult situation in 1939 etc, most Irish people assumed a position of Neutrality, with a significant minority (both North and South) throwing their lot in with the Allies in the fight against Fascism. Personally, I admire the latter greatly, but accept that many Neutrals were in a difficult position, so would not rush to judge any individual without knowing more about his/her circumstances etc.

However, when it comes to that very tiny minority of Irish people like Russell who actively collaborated with the Nazis, then I do, indeed, take a simple view of them. Frankly, they were nasty, bigoted extremists, of whom the best that could be said was that they did not give a fcuk about what the Nazis were doing elsewhere, so long as it might help them achieve their own, selfish ends. As such, they were despicable imo.

But however much contempt I might feel for them, I suppose I must acknowledge that i was not living in their time. No such qualification exists for the people who today, with the benefit of a reasonably clear historical record, still insist on "honouring" low-life like Russell. For it is clear that these supporters are prepared to forgive any sin, so long as the sinner hated the Brits sufficiently.

Which would be bad enough in any circumstances, but when these are (so-called) Socialists, who are prepared to overlook the sin of Nazi-collaboration, it demonstrates to me that these apologists are every bit as hate-filled as their "hero" was before them.

That simple enough for you?

P.S. I only briefly flicked through the Link you cite, but considering its origins, I wonder will those who seek to castigate me over occasionally quoting Wiki will have anything to say about the credibility of your sources? Indeed, someone else earlier cited a crackpot US Neo-Nazi source to support some point or other against me, without being challenged, as well...

Just for your information the people who went from Israel to the nazis may have been nutters and extremists, but they were also part of the Israeli administration of the time, not some minute bunch of lunatics. Of course, like Russell, they did not know the sheer brutality and master plan of the nazis, which only came to light later. My point is that there is nothing knew in a group aligning itself with a enemy of their enemy. For what it is worth, I believe that the same policy is deeply flawed and has a habit of biting you in the arse in future (see US/UK vrs Bin Laden, Sadaam etc etc. I still see nothing wrong with remembering a man who devoted his life to the republican cause.

ps - I first read of the Israel Nazi link in Robert Fisks "The war for civilisation", I could find no link to that book on the net so you'll have to take my word for it. The link above was the best I could retrieve on the issue at short notice.

[boojangles]

'Where did that Hate come from? Why would Russell have been filled with Hatred? 
Myles do you believe that Ireland would have 26 of its 32 Counties free if Republicans back around the the 20s had persisted with peaceful means?'
Who knows how things would've turned out - had the struggle for independence remained political rather physical, I think independence would undoubtedly have been delayed, possibly for decades. I think a 32 county Ireland would have gained independence at some point after the second world war, possibly with some constitutional link to Britain left in place. Whatever scenario you care to imagine, I think an independent, 32 county Ireland would have been much, much closer today had we not had the various armed campaigns that have only served to deepen the divisions in our country.

I honestly don't think peaceful means could have been upheld.The British forces were more than forceful in their treatment of Irish/Catholics in this country for too long.It was not possible for people to stand idly by and watch their own people being slaughtered.
It is very sad to think that we could have an independent 32 county Ireland now.But TBH I feel that there are/were far too many people who never had any intention of being part of a United Ireland, without a Union with Britain. The armed struggle went on on both sides.