Armagh v Down- 29th June-Ulster Semi Final Thread

[Hardy]

Maybe it's just that I'm dismayed at the concentrated efforts to remove all physicality from the game, but again I find myself almost alone in defending a player for a physical clash. I don't know if my vision is totally skewed at this stage, but I seem to have seen it differently to most here. (I haven't had time to read the whole thread, so excuse me if I'm missing something).

The way I saw it was that O'Rourke made a legitimate and admirable effort to block the pass, jumping a huge height, but failing to reach the ball. Now he's airborne. How is he supposed to change direction in mid-air? He's not fitted with ailerons and a rudder. He goes where his momentum takes him, which happens to be straight into the player who's wide open after delivering the pass. If he had done anything to make the impact worse, he'd have deserved the card, but he didn't move hand, arm, elbow, boot or leg. He just crashed into Rafferty and hurt him. He was as likely to hurt himself. I could see no evidence of intent.

It's it used to be a physical game.

BC - you're too long in Cork already. I'll have to give you a few tips about immunising yourself against Cork football do-not-touch culture.

[Boozehell]

Speaking of the Ulster Final if the CDC were watching the video of yesterdays match a few of the Armagh players should be getting a few suspensions for blatant elbows and a few other off the ball challenges.  

[screenexile]

Agree with a lot that has been said by the Armagh posters here, concerns over the midfield sector throughout the league resurfaced yesterday. Gordon always seemed to be in position for the catch before McGrane and therefore left McGrane jumping behind him. MOR getting sent off left us with our main breaking ball winner on the line and it could've cost us the match. I have sung his praises quite a bit on the board but yesterday he showed all his negative points. Like Goats I noticed that Brian Mallon was ready to come on presumably for MOR as it was obvious that the red mist had descended and it was only a matter of time before he was sent off. Benny O'Kane was constantly running over to him to try to settle him.
Thought that Aidan started off poorly but as the game went on he became very influential. Charlie Vernon started off like a house on fire but several big hits took it out of him and eventually he blew a gasket. Yes, he does make a few mistakes but Jaysus lads it was his second championship match, he's still settling in, give him time, bit like Stephen Kernan who's just now starting to show what a good player he is.
Ronan Clarke was awesome and as somebody else said he is the best full forward in Ireland (and that includes Kieran Donaghy).
Ciaran McKeever had a great game and showed that he can play as well as a defensive stopper as he can as an attacking wing back, he really has it all. See the Irish News and a few posters on here calling him cynical but him and Coulter were at it all the way through the match.
I am concerned about the Fermanagh match as they will run at us in the same way as Down did and we need to be more disciplined in our tackling, haven't got a chance to watch the rerun but it felt at the time that McQuillan gave a lot of soft frees. We may face the same scenario in the final.

Of course he is! I mean playing well against Cavan and Down is the same as being undoubtedly the best FF in 2 Championship seasons whilst winning the AI in both!

[Orior]

My twopence.

Just after Armagh scored the goal, we stopped winning any ball in the midfield. It was a smart move by Carr bringing Rodgers out, very worrying for Armagh. Part of the problem was down to the absence of MOR in the second half but also a lack of vision accuracy by Hearty. After about the fourth win by Down he should have known or been told to vary it.

I didnt think Vernons goal attempt was at the keeper. More like to his left and low, and therefore it was a great save to get down there.

I also thought the Armagh substitutions were well timed, but the wrong people were substituted. Why bring off Donaghy? Aaron was responsbile for letting a Down man catch a free near the square then pass it out for a handy point. Aaron didnt look very mobile. But at least we survived and the run out will do these fellas a lot of good.

Finally finally, we mentioned this last year too, but where has Armaghs orange jersy's gone? The "orange" tops and orange socks dont match!

[amallon]

Yesterday was a fairly disappointing day for Down, to many mistakes and the wrong options taken on too many ocassions.  Armagh were the better team and Down can have no complaints.  Down are improving thats for sure.  I hope Down can do something in the qualifiers, but Downs attitude towards the qualifers hasn't always been what it should if past years are anything to go by. 

[Smokin Joe]

I didnt think Vernons goal attempt was at the keeper. More like to his left and low, and therefore it was a great save to get down there.

Orior, I was in the McGrane stand looking straight down the line of Vernon's shot.  From my viewpoint it appeared to be straight at McVeigh.

[brokencrossbar1]

Maybe it's just that I'm dismayed at the concentrated efforts to remove all physicality from the game, but again I find myself almost alone in defending a player for a physical clash. I don't know if my vision is totally skewed at this stage, but I seem to have seen it differently to most here. (I haven't had time to read the whole thread, so excuse me if I'm missing something).

The way I saw it was that O'Rourke made a legitimate and admirable effort to block the pass, jumping a huge height, but failing to reach the ball. Now he's airborne. How is he supposed to change direction in mid-air? He's not fitted with ailerons and a rudder. He goes where his momentum takes him, which happens to be straight into the player who's wide open after delivering the pass. If he had done anything to make the impact worse, he'd have deserved the card, but he didn't move hand, arm, elbow, boot or leg. He just crashed into Rafferty and hurt him. He was as likely to hurt himself. I could see no evidence of intent.

Orior, I have to disagree with you about Vernon's shot.  It was hit at the nice level for a keeper.  If you are shotting for goal from that distance you either hit it Liam Hayes style into the top corner, or cut the daisies off the grass.  A foot or two off the ground make keepers look good.

It's it used to be a physical game.

BC - you're too long in Cork already. I'll have to give you a few tips about immunising yourself against Cork football do-not-touch culture.

Here, Hardy, I like you am dismiayed at the lack of physicality in the game, come to our next championship game and you will see a club team in Cork being built on the Cross model  I have to disagree with you in regards to MOR.  If you watch him jumping to "block" the pass by Rafferty.  At no time had he his eyes anywhere near where the ball was.  He was totally focused on clattering him.  It may seem rich to some people who know me on here, but this bugs me.  It is one thing to stop a runner, but this was just an attempt to hurt someone.  I have no problem with someone giving another player a reasonably fair belt but there are limits to which I will condone playing on the edge.  I think he took it over the edge this time, and thankfully it didn't cost us, but it will in the long run, either by him (or another player being sent off) or by returning a ref against us in a tense match.

[thewobbler]

Hardy, I make you right to an extent. But we've all been in that position, and you've got three basic ways to react.

1. Do your best to minimise contact.
2. Continue as if the man doesn't exist and whatever happens, happens.
3. Make sure the man bears the brunt of your body weight by angling yourself in such a way to cause damage.

Number one is out for everyone except pussyfooting groundball players.

Number two is the acceptable option.

Number three is no different to assaulting someone on the street.


The problem exists that in a lot of cases, the line between two and three is quite abritrary. Only the individual knows for sure. In my opinion O'Rourke didn't go to 'do' Rafferty, but he certainly went in hard. That puts him on the line between two and three, which kind of has to be a yellow card in my book, as a third man tackle should be at least a tick by itself.

[Brick Tamlin]

can someone answer me a question please.

Hugh Davey??(and yes its a question)

is someone having a laugh re: the amount of shamrocks players on that down panel.

[RadioGAAGAA]

I missed the sending off yesterday, I was following the ball.


Just seen it on rte's web stream.


I think it was harsh. It wasn't as if O'Rourke carried alot of forward speed into it, and once he is airborne, what is he meant to do.


I think the referee thought he led with the forearm/elbow, and that is why he booked him. Replays will show that was not the case.

[Hardy]

Fair points lads. BC - not looking at the ball is probably circumstantial evidence of intent, OK and I'd missed that. But I doubt if that's what the referee based his decision on. To borrow O'Neill's modest proposal elsewhere, it's better for the game that an odd lad here and there gets broke up than that we turn it into netball.

And you can forget about introducing physical contact into Cork football. You'll be hounded out of the county, vilified in de paypur and denounced as a savage who doesn't appreciate "nice flowing football".

[brokencrossbar1]

Fair points lads. BC - not looking at the ball is probably circumstantial evidence of intent, OK and I'd missed that. But I doubt if that's what the referee based his decision on. To borrow O'Neill's modest proposal elsewhere, it's better for the game that an odd lad here and there gets broke up than that we turn it into netball.

And you can forget about introducing physical contact into Cork football. You'll be hounded out of the county, vilified in de paypur and denounced as a savage who doesn't appreciate "nice flowing football".

That has already started, and that is just within the club!!! We won "ugly" last week and were villified for being too negative and cynical by our own club men!

As regards MOR it was a booking in my view and no more.  The game can be physical without late hits.

[Feckitt]

The weaknesses of the Down full back line have been well documented, but when Armagh's new corner forward Francie Bellew, beats them to the race for an incoming ball, picks up and delivers his pass, then it is time for the Down lads to pack their bags and call for a taxi.

btw, this is not a backhanded criticism of the Bould Francie. Leg-end.

[Goats Do Shave]

I burst into laughter when he came out of full forward to win that ball... how did he sneak up there withough anyone noticing!!? He was free again after that, but wasn't supplied...imagine the cheers he'd get if he took a score!

He played a more roving role yesterday, as he stook to John Clarke. I think Down's tactic was to draw him out, but he's farily comfortable on the ball!

[corn02]

For me it was yellow-card. Could of went either way but I don't think he can have many com plaints, we barely won a break-ball without him though. The one thing I would say is that the ref had it for MOR from the start. Has sent him off before and he didn't even see the incident, just seen the Down man on the ground and produced the yellow.

SK continues to prove myself and others very wrong and I am delighted about it.

Wobbler you are well off the mark, I did not see many Down people being near decapitated. Bellews 50/50 ball, MOR over carrying, AOR getting pushed in the back and the one McKeever getting a tick were all examples of very soft Down frees.

I would have liked to have seen Dongahy move in and Bellew taken ff for Aaron, but of course Donaghy had a yellow which played a part in the decision.

Difference in class was quite evident for me.