It Must be Marching Season

[Tony Baloney]

Is there a change in the Parades Commission coming up soon? I read that somewhere recently.


Or is that just personnel on the panel?


But surely the whole rules and regulations of what is allowed etc. has to be updated to the context of 2026/27 compared to when it was first put together? If so, nationalist politicians should be all over that.


Anybody know what the story is?

Sir John O'Hara KC recently retired High Court judge has been appointed to conduct an investigation in to the operation of the Commission. I imagine his findings and recommendations will form part of any potential overhaul.

David, Allison Morris was saying on Sunday Politics that barristers are trying to claw back a backlog due to earlier industrial action and this will lead to a lot of people being sent to jail in a short period of time. If the prisons are full do the judges make the sentence a light(er) touch to keep them out of prison or do they apply the correct tariff and how/when they go to jail is managed separately?

[David McKeown]

Is there a change in the Parades Commission coming up soon? I read that somewhere recently.


Or is that just personnel on the panel?


But surely the whole rules and regulations of what is allowed etc. has to be updated to the context of 2026/27 compared to when it was first put together? If so, nationalist politicians should be all over that.


Anybody know what the story is?

Sir John O'Hara KC recently retired High Court judge has been appointed to conduct an investigation in to the operation of the Commission. I imagine his findings and recommendations will form part of any potential overhaul.

David, Allison Morris was saying on Sunday Politics that barristers are trying to claw back a backlog due to earlier industrial action and this will lead to a lot of people being sent to jail in a short period of time. If the prisons are full do the judges make the sentence a light(er) touch to keep them out of prison or do they apply the correct tariff and how/when they go to jail is managed separately?

The short answer is no.

The longer answer is much more nuanced. Barristers aren't trying to clear a backlog the Courts are and as best as possible we are trying to facilitate same.

As I've said on the DUP thread, sentencing is an art form and not a science. There's a lot of factors go into it but essentially a custodial sentence has 4 key aims. 1. Punishment 2. Rehabilitation 3. Deterrence 4. Protection of the public.  Each sentence will be set to reflect each of those elements to a greater or lesser extent.

To that end when considering rehabilitation the court will consider the availability of resources within the prison which are practically non existent at this stage. We are continually told it's a 2-3 year wait list for drug addiction and offence focused work. So there may be some allowance for that but it will be minimal.

The reason prisons are full in Northern Ireland though is nothing to do with sentenced prisoners. It's nearly 80% of prisoners here are remand prisoners. It's half that in England and Wales.

There are three/four reasons for that.

1. There's a lack of mental health facilities so a lot who should be getting treatment are remanded.

2. There's no bail hostels anymore as they are used for prisoners on licence. There's been chronic under investment in this area since they introduced licensing for non sexual offences in 2009.

3. Despite their being no legal basis for it, in practice now bail can not be secured without an address PSNI deem suitable.

4. Remand time is much more beneficial to defendants than sentenced time particularly if facing multiple cases.

Might have been more detailed than you were looking but hopefully helps.

[Tony Baloney]

Cheers David. Insightful as always. Last question for the day on this - given the above why are people on 3-figure convictions given "one last chance" by magistrates? Given your above answer surely a line has to be drawn somewhere.

When I read the Armagh Gazette it's the same names every few weeks (you'll no doubt be familiar with some of the characters!) and numbers like 109 previous convictions are not unusual.

What's the answer for these people as jail obviously isnt a deterrent and support services arent working or available? Im sure they are all a combination of mental health/substance abuse cases but something is very wrong and the taxpayer continues to fund the bill for these people. If you know the answer I'll vote for you 😑

[p3427977]

David what do you mean by:

Remand time is much more beneficial to defendants than sentenced time particularly if facing multiple cases

Thanks

[David McKeown]

David what do you mean by:

Remand time is much more beneficial to defendants than sentenced time particularly if facing multiple cases

Thanks

It's a bit complicated and in fact a lot lawyers don't understand it. In the UK remand time automatically converts to sentenced time with out any input from the JUdge. Seems uncomplicated until have multiple cases going on at once which case remand only time on any of the cases will count against each of the sentences if they end up being concurrent which they often will or at least lawyers should try and arrange them to be.

It's a bit of a ridiculous rule that can result in some absurdities like when getting longer sentences can result in less time in custody or as in a case I had a couple of years ago where a guy got 2 years and remand time he had from more than 5 years before he committed the offence ended up counting against the sentence he got.

[red hander]

Is there a change in the Parades Commission coming up soon? I read that somewhere recently.


Or is that just personnel on the panel?


But surely the whole rules and regulations of what is allowed etc. has to be updated to the context of 2026/27 compared to when it was first put together? If so, nationalist politicians should be all over that.


Anybody know what the story is?

Sir John O'Hara KC recently retired High Court judge has been appointed to conduct an investigation in to the operation of the Commission. I imagine his findings and recommendations will form part of any potential overhaul.

David, Allison Morris was saying on Sunday Politics that barristers are trying to claw back a backlog due to earlier industrial action and this will lead to a lot of people being sent to jail in a short period of time. If the prisons are full do the judges make the sentence a light(er) touch to keep them out of prison or do they apply the correct tariff and how/when they go to jail is managed separately?

I wouldn't be too worried about what Bet Lynch said. A complete bluffer.

[Tony Baloney]

Is there a change in the Parades Commission coming up soon? I read that somewhere recently.


Or is that just personnel on the panel?


But surely the whole rules and regulations of what is allowed etc. has to be updated to the context of 2026/27 compared to when it was first put together? If so, nationalist politicians should be all over that.


Anybody know what the story is?

Sir John O'Hara KC recently retired High Court judge has been appointed to conduct an investigation in to the operation of the Commission. I imagine his findings and recommendations will form part of any potential overhaul.

David, Allison Morris was saying on Sunday Politics that barristers are trying to claw back a backlog due to earlier industrial action and this will lead to a lot of people being sent to jail in a short period of time. If the prisons are full do the judges make the sentence a light(er) touch to keep them out of prison or do they apply the correct tariff and how/when they go to jail is managed separately?

I wouldn't be too worried about what Bet Lynch said. A complete bluffer.

[p3427977]

David what do you mean by:

Remand time is much more beneficial to defendants than sentenced time particularly if facing multiple cases

Thanks

It's a bit complicated and in fact a lot lawyers don't understand it. In the UK remand time automatically converts to sentenced time with out any input from the JUdge. Seems uncomplicated until have multiple cases going on at once which case remand only time on any of the cases will count against each of the sentences if they end up being concurrent which they often will or at least lawyers should try and arrange them to be.

It's a bit of a ridiculous rule that can result in some absurdities like when getting longer sentences can result in less time in custody or as in a case I had a couple of years ago where a guy got 2 years and remand time he had from more than 5 years before he committed the offence ended up counting against the sentence he got.

Oh I get that but is time on remand easier than time after sentencing I mean? More privileges etc whilst on remand? I'm pretty sure you said remand was served in prisons as well or is that just in some cases even though the percentage is 80%?

[David McKeown]

David what do you mean by:

Remand time is much more beneficial to defendants than sentenced time particularly if facing multiple cases

Thanks

It's a bit complicated and in fact a lot lawyers don't understand it. In the UK remand time automatically converts to sentenced time with out any input from the JUdge. Seems uncomplicated until have multiple cases going on at once which case remand only time on any of the cases will count against each of the sentences if they end up being concurrent which they often will or at least lawyers should try and arrange them to be.

It's a bit of a ridiculous rule that can result in some absurdities like when getting longer sentences can result in less time in custody or as in a case I had a couple of years ago where a guy got 2 years and remand time he had from more than 5 years before he committed the offence ended up counting against the sentence he got.

Oh I get that but is time on remand easier than time after sentencing I mean? More privileges etc whilst on remand? I'm pretty sure you said remand was served in prisons as well or is that just in some cases even though the percentage is 80%?

Yes time on remand grants you more visits, ability to wear your own clothes and has other advantages but there aren't really that many differences.

Maghaberry is the remand prison but also houses sentenced prisoners while Magilligan is the other way round.

80% of all prisoners are in remand here whilst in England and Wales it's much lower.

[marty34]

The title from an article on the BBC ni website is;

Dissidents may have mounted gun attacks on Garvaghy Road, court hears


Then the actual articles states;

Dissident republicans may have mounted gun attacks on police had officers cleared a path for an Orange parade on the Garvaghy Road, the High Court has heard.


The court has begun hearing a legal challenge against the secretary of state's decision to ban the Drumcree parade on security advice.


A lawyer for the Orange Order member bringing the case told the court about the contents of Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) intelligence material.


Reading from it, he stated it was "almost certain" that dissidents were among protesters and it was "possible" they had access to firearms.


It is "possible" the guns could have been used to attack police, he added.

The lawyer further stated that petrol bombs may have been used in disorder which would have followed police removing protesters.


Interesting how this is worded.

[Armagh18]

A lot of if buts and maybes...

I could win the lotto this week and it's possible that Leitrim will Sam next year...

[Main Street]

The BBC article is not at all clear. It reads as if the OO lawyer was arguing the may/possible/could outcomes,

But The RTE article is clear that the may/possible/could  outcomes was in a police report speculating as to what could happen should the parade be allowed to proceed. and that's the job of the police to do that.  And that's what the parades commission should've interpreted from the police submissions about the livelihood of civil disorder way back in sept 25 instead of focusing on that the police had no direct information about the likelihood of violence.

[AustinPowers]

A lot of if buts and maybes...

I could win the lotto this week and it's possible that Leitrim will Sam next year...

Is  Leitrim winning Sam a consequence of you winning the  lotto? 

It's just  about tarring all  the Garvaghy road residents as  dissidents, and not  concerned residents and parents  who don't want to go back  to the mayhem of  30 years ago.

[Armagh18]

A lot of if buts and maybes...

I could win the lotto this week and it's possible that Leitrim will Sam next year...

Is  Leitrim winning Sam a consequence of you winning the  lotto? 

It's just  about tarring all  the Garvaghy road residents as  dissidents, and not  concerned residents and parents  who don't want to go back  to the mayhem of  30 years ago.

Yeah it's complete bollix.

I see the Shinners have all got their letters today

[weareros]

The BBC article is not at all clear. It reads as if the OO lawyer was arguing the may/possible/could outcomes,

But The RTE article is clear that the may/possible/could  outcomes was in a police report speculating as to what could happen should the parade be allowed to proceed. and that's the job of the police to do that.  And that's what the parades commission should've interpreted from the police submissions about the livelihood of civil disorder way back in sept 25 instead of focusing on that the police had no direct information about the likelihood of violence.

The RTE article also points out that these are the IFs if the police cleared/sanitised the residents off the street.

So there might as well have been a headline:

Protestant Police Force Would Have Beat peaceful residents off the street to allow Orange March thru.

But Unionists went right to speculating about an hypothetical aftermath of police brutality.