The Fine Gael thread

[weareros]

You've verging on making my point for me. I also don't buy the suggestion that FG TDs are resigning because they are facing some sort of an electoral wipeout. As it stands, they are (sadly) the front runners in the polls. That, in conjunction with the fact that seat incumbancy is the best advantage their TDs could ask for, makes it all the more eyebrow raising that over half of them aren't seeking re-election.

Are their TDs getting too hard a time over their government having built the world's most expensive hospital? Or the world's most expensive bike shelter? Or is all not well in the party? Is there some sort of toxicity? Bullying?

Or are we to take our lead from RTÉ and refrain from asking such speculative questions when it comes to Fine Gael?

I think a lot may have made the decision when they were facing a beating from the electorate. But things took a turn. While the Irish working class that looked set to flock to Sinn Fein are left on economic matters, they are similar to British working class in that they are right wing on immigration. So SF looking like it was going to storm to victory have now lost that vote to a motley crew of independents and lost some of younger vote by wavering on things like climate. Fine Gael are really accidentally finding themselves in a stronger position though Harris is clearly more popular with their traditional base than Varadkar. I doubt the hospital will lose votes. Most people know parents who have been in difficult situations with the lack of a top class children's hospital. It will be like Knock Airport back in the day. A lot of criticism but now considered a great investment.

That's a reply that belongs in the WTF Thread! How many times do Fine Gael have to kick people in the ba11s before they stop crawling back for more?
You're talking about a hospital that was supposed to be completed by 2020 and at a budget of €650 million. Would you say delivering it 5 years late (at the earliest), and €1.5 BILLION over budget says about FGs competency? What does the bike shed episode suggest they have learned from the hospital build? And of course people want a modern, fit for purpose children's hospital,  but you're not seriously suggesting that such a thing can't possibly be delivered for any less than €2.2 billion? Accidentally the most expensive hospital ever but ok earth. "Who cares" sez he. Mad.

I said I didn't think it would be a vote loser because Ireland needs a top class children's hospital and in years to come it will prove it's worth. In contrast, look at Grand Central Station in Belfast. That infrastructure project cost over double it's projected amount, maybe even more because John O'Dowd continues to write cheques to cover the rising costs. It's got marble floors (ooh nice) and the boast is that it's bigger than Kings Cross Station in London. While Ireland needed a children's hospital, did Belfast need a bigger train station than London. You often say SF/DUP executive has no power, but I doubt anyone in London put a gun to their head and said the one thing North needs is a train station bigger than Kings Cross with marble floors - especially when John O'Dowd essentially cut much of West of the Bann from the All-Ireland train strategy. So a giant enormous train station (did I say bigger than London which actually handles about 100 million passengers a year) and no feckin train tracks coming anytime in the future. The Children's Hospital will end up costing an exorbitant amount but there's a difference - it was needed and Dublin government is producing the exorbitant surplus money that can cover these costs, while at the same time just dropped another 4 billion into the Ireland's future wealth fund. North on the other hand built this big vanity project and don't have the money to cover pensioner fuel allowances this winter. But will that lose Sinn Fein or DUP one single vote. It won't. Not one feckin vote. And I don't think the children's hospital will cost FG/FF one feckin vote either.

[Snapchap]

I said I didn't think it would be a vote loser because Ireland needs a top class children's hospital and in years to come it will prove it's worth.

So you're saying a fit for purpose hospital couldn't possibly have been built unless it was the most expensive one in the world? That it's impossible to build a "top class" childrens hospital for anything less than €2.2 BILLION? It does beg the question as to why FG budgeted €650m. What does that say about their level of competence? And what does it say about FG supporters like yourself who let them away with such ineptitude time and time again?

In contrast, look at Grand Central Station in Belfast. That infrastructure project cost over double it's projected amount, maybe even more because John O'Dowd continues to write cheques to cover the rising costs. It's got marble floors (ooh nice) and the boast is that it's bigger than Kings Cross Station in London. While Ireland needed a children's hospital, did Belfast need a bigger train station than London. You often say SF/DUP executive has no power, but I doubt anyone in London put a gun to their head and said the one thing North needs is a train station bigger than Kings Cross with marble floors - especially when John O'Dowd essentially cut much of West of the Bann from the All-Ireland train strategy. So a giant enormous train station (did I say bigger than London which actually handles about 100 million passengers a year) and no feckin train tracks coming anytime in the future. The Children's Hospital will end up costing an exorbitant amount but there's a difference - it was needed and Dublin government is producing the exorbitant surplus money that can cover these costs, while at the same time just dropped another 4 billion into the Ireland's future wealth fund. North on the other hand built this big vanity project and don't have the money to cover pensioner fuel allowances this winter. But will that lose Sinn Fein or DUP one single vote. It won't. Not one feckin vote. And I don't think the children's hospital will cost FG/FF one feckin vote either.

Strange example to plump for in your grasp for a whataboutery angle. Since the Belfast Central project was rubber stamped in 2016, it has been overseen by John O'Dowd for all of 8 months, given he only assumed office this February. Since it begun, the project has been overseen by civil servants from 2017-2020, and by an SDLP minster from 2020-22, and again by civil serants during another collapse from 2022-24. Anyway, there's a separate thread for discussing SF.

But back to the question I was pondering. Of the 18 retiring FG TDs, only 5 are of retirement age, and most (13 I think?) decided to retire well into the time when SFs slide in the polls began. So I'm not convinced that quite possibly the largest ever exodus of sitting members of parliament from a ruling party ahead of an election can be down to old age or fear of losing a seat. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's hard not to suspect there's something more to it.

[Rossfan]

They all slept with Jeffrey?
Or Leo?

[Pub Bore]

Who would you elect to do better? SF have no concept of controlling expenditure, as we have seen in NI.

Really??

Yes, really.
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/councils-20m-plan-to-duplicate-headquarters-branded-flagrant-waste-of-ratepayers-money-SXNMCBXPWRA6RJWCPG6HDO6KEU/

You might need to read the article.

[Snapchap]

From The Ditch:

"Paschal Donohoe had a secret phone call with his Israeli counterpart to assure him the Irish government would "block" the Occupied Territories Bill.

Donohoe didn't record the call, which the Israeli side called "confidential", in his ministerial diary."

https://x.com/wereontheditch/status/1838915361044938752?t=Fy7QbES0XayMAhlehNRBHQ&s=19

Welcome back Rossfan. You've been quiet on here since the above was posted.

In other news, The Ditch contacted the government today to inform them that yet another flight is "due to enter Irish sovereign airspace this afternoon carrying at least three munitions of war packages for delivery to the Israel Defense Forces Nevatim air base in Israel". I wonder how much Paschal knows about all these flights and the government's complicity in Israel's genocide?

[weareros]

I said I didn't think it would be a vote loser because Ireland needs a top class children's hospital and in years to come it will prove it's worth.

So you're saying a fit for purpose hospital couldn't possibly have been built unless it was the most expensive one in the world? That it's impossible to build a "top class" childrens hospital for anything less than €2.2 BILLION? It does beg the question as to why FG budgeted €650m. What does that say about their level of competence? And what does it say about FG supporters like yourself who let them away with such ineptitude time and time again?

Never voted for them. Just pointing out that I didn't think it would be a vote loser. Ireland has to invest in health infrastructure. Some of the costs (as in most infrastructure projects) ballooned due to pandemic and extrinsic factors, rising cost of supplies, design changes, planning changes. Some no doubt was a very poor projection by government and oversight. I only contrasted with Grand Central Station because that ballooned too, for many of the same reasons. But the hospital was needed, the train station not at that level. The whole executive signed off on that.

But back to the question I was pondering. Of the 18 retiring FG TDs, only 5 are of retirement age, and most (13 I think?) decided to retire well into the time when SFs slide in the polls began. So I'm not convinced that quite possibly the largest ever exodus of sitting members of parliament from a ruling party ahead of an election can be down to old age or fear of losing a seat. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's hard not to suspect there's something more to it.

I answered this as best I can. Some are old, some have been there a long time, some look like they were facing a seat loss, some were Varadkar loyalists, some don't want to bother with the abuse politicians get these days, some will get much more lucrative offers elsewhere. If I hear of any scandals I'll be sure to post. It's a lot and will probably impact their final seat count in some areas, but generally in a PR system, seats are dished out fairly provided the parties manage their vote share. I remember once in Roscommon out for a walk in Castlerea on election day and a car came flying down the street near the voting hall before braking hard. Out jumps a famous FF politician and he was fuming. There was a bit of arguing with a few other Fianna Fail men he had seen. I asked what all that was about and was told the other FF politician had been canvassing in his area asking for 1st preference votes. Sure enough in a huge shock, he lost his seat. But he knew before voting even started that his colleague had helped scupper his chances by moving into his part of the county. SF too will have learned from their poor vote management in the last election, while FG will have a plan to get the vote out even for the new faces.

[Snapchap]

Never voted for them.

In all my time on this board, I've never heard anyone admit to voting for them. Even their most ardent defenders.

Ireland has to invest in health infrastructure. Some of the costs (as in most infrastructure projects) ballooned due to pandemic and extrinsic factors, rising cost of supplies, design changes, planning changes. Some no doubt was a very poor projection by government and oversight.

Some? Did FG fail to project that costs were likely rise during the build? That designs can change etc? Or did they try to factor this in and still get it wrong to the tune of £150,000,000? In either case, I'd say it was more than "some" poor projections. I'd categorise it as catastrophicly poor projections.

I only contrasted with Grand Central Station because that ballooned too, for many of the same reasons.

It balooned to an overspend of 60%, compared to the NCH, which has had an overspend of 215%. And let's be honest ffs. You brought it up because you thought you could pin any overspend on it on Sinn Féin, and John O'Down specifically.

But the hospital was needed, the train station not at that level.

Of course the hospital was needed, but the point is €2.2 BILLION shouldn't have been needed to build it. Again, unless you are suggesting that anthing less than the most expensive hospital ever built on earth wouldn't have been acceptable?

The whole executive signed off on that.

Convenient that the whole executive signed off on it all of a sudden. It's only minutes since you tried to pin the blame solely and squarely on John O'Dowd, who's tenure over the project since 2017 has been for only the final 8 months.

[weareros]

Sorry I think your quotes got scrambled above so quoting here:

"Convenient that the whole executive signed off on it all of a sudden. It's only minutes since you tried to pin the blame solely and squarely on John O'Dowd, who's tenure over the project since 2017 has been for only the final 8 months."

DUP/Sinn Fein were the two largest parties in NI Executive that signed off on the vanity project. John O'Dowd was only the minister who cut the ribbon, but he was also the minister that said a railway in Fermanagh was a waste of money while opening this monstrosity. Was this not a huge waste of money then? Was he saying Belfast needs a bigger train hub than London? If FF/FG are the two largest parties in Irish government, they are to blame for health/housing. You seem to think SF can get off because Stormont has either no power, or SDLP was the minister in charge of infrastructure in 2016 when Mallon could not proceed on this without executive approval. By the way, who do you blame for the shocking levels of pollution of Lough Neagh and rest of North? It must be someone's fault but not Sinn Fein surely.

[JoG2]

You've verging on making my point for me. I also don't buy the suggestion that FG TDs are resigning because they are facing some sort of an electoral wipeout. As it stands, they are (sadly) the front runners in the polls. That, in conjunction with the fact that seat incumbancy is the best advantage their TDs could ask for, makes it all the more eyebrow raising that over half of them aren't seeking re-election.

Are their TDs getting too hard a time over their government having built the world's most expensive hospital? Or the world's most expensive bike shelter? Or is all not well in the party? Is there some sort of toxicity? Bullying?

Or are we to take our lead from RTÉ and refrain from asking such speculative questions when it comes to Fine Gael?

I think a lot may have made the decision when they were facing a beating from the electorate. But things took a turn. While the Irish working class that looked set to flock to Sinn Fein are left on economic matters, they are similar to British working class in that they are right wing on immigration. So SF looking like it was going to storm to victory have now lost that vote to a motley crew of independents and lost some of younger vote by wavering on things like climate. Fine Gael are really accidentally finding themselves in a stronger position though Harris is clearly more popular with their traditional base than Varadkar. I doubt the hospital will lose votes. Most people know parents who have been in difficult situations with the lack of a top class children's hospital. It will be like Knock Airport back in the day. A lot of criticism but now considered a great investment.

That's a reply that belongs in the WTF Thread! How many times do Fine Gael have to kick people in the ba11s before they stop crawling back for more?
You're talking about a hospital that was supposed to be completed by 2020 and at a budget of €650 million. Would you say delivering it 5 years late (at the earliest), and €1.5 BILLION over budget says about FGs competency? What does the bike shed episode suggest they have learned from the hospital build? And of course people want a modern, fit for purpose children's hospital,  but you're not seriously suggesting that such a thing can't possibly be delivered for any less than €2.2 billion? Accidentally the most expensive hospital ever but ok earth. "Who cares" sez he. Mad.

I said I didn't think it would be a vote loser because Ireland needs a top class children's hospital and in years to come it will prove it's worth. In contrast, look at Grand Central Station in Belfast. That infrastructure project cost over double it's projected amount, maybe even more because John O'Dowd continues to write cheques to cover the rising costs. It's got marble floors (ooh nice) and the boast is that it's bigger than Kings Cross Station in London. While Ireland needed a children's hospital, did Belfast need a bigger train station than London. You often say SF/DUP executive has no power, but I doubt anyone in London put a gun to their head and said the one thing North needs is a train station bigger than Kings Cross with marble floors - especially when John O'Dowd essentially cut much of West of the Bann from the All-Ireland train strategy. So a giant enormous train station (did I say bigger than London which actually handles about 100 million passengers a year) and no feckin train tracks coming anytime in the future. The Children's Hospital will end up costing an exorbitant amount but there's a difference - it was needed and Dublin government is producing the exorbitant surplus money that can cover these costs, while at the same time just dropped another 4 billion into the Ireland's future wealth fund. North on the other hand built this big vanity project and don't have the money to cover pensioner fuel allowances this winter. But will that lose Sinn Fein or DUP one single vote. It won't. Not one feckin vote. And I don't think the children's hospital will cost FG/FF one feckin vote either.

Point of order, it's not just a train station though is it? It'll cater to 20 million a year apparently. And as far as overland train stations go, is King's Cross not one Londons smallest?

The spiralling cost of the children's hospital and the absolute ineptitude should be a vote loser. You can only imagine the brown envelopes being handed over from the very start with the decision to build it in the city... You hooers can't get enough off FF/FG and the establishment

[Snapchap]

DUP/Sinn Fein were the two largest parties in NI Executive that signed off on the vanity project. John O'Dowd was only the minister who cut the ribbon,

Yea the Infrastructure Minister tends to be the one to cut the ribbon on Infrastructe projects.

but he was also the minister that said a railway in Fermanagh was a waste of money while opening this monstrosity.

A new railway network is pie in the sky nonsense akin to Boris' bridge to Scotland.

Was this not a huge waste of money then? Was he saying Belfast needs a bigger train hub than London?

I have no idea. I'm no expert on it. If it's over sized, I'll take your word for it. The point is the financial management of the project. It went over budget by 60% which is not good enough by anyone's standards, but the NCH hospital went over by 215%. I'm quite prepared to say that Belfast doesn't need train station bigger than Kings Cross. You on the other hand are seemingly defending the NCH overspend by so far refusing to accept that a fit for purpose hospital could and should have been possible without haing to make it the most expensive one ever built in the entire world.

If FF/FG are the two largest parties in Irish government, they are to blame for health/housing. You seem to think SF can get off because Stormont has either no power, or SDLP was the minister in charge of infrastructure in 2016 when Mallon could not proceed on this without executive approval. By the way, who do you blame for the shocking levels of pollution of Lough Neagh and rest of North? It must be someone's fault but not Sinn Fein surely.

So a govenment with no fiscal powers is equally accountable for it's fiscal decision making as a glorified county council with absolutely NO fiscal powers and whos job is merely to divide among their departments whatever money is given to it by a government in another country? That's essentially what you are saying. It's the absolute height of ridiculousness.
As for Lough Neagh, there's an absolute multitude of reasons which you can discuss on the relvant thread, though I'm sure you will be able to pinpoint one individual SF politican to blame even though the environment has been under the remit of a DUP minister or civil servants for the best part of the last decade.

[weareros]

Happy to let you have the last word on the matter, Snapchat. Have posted on Lough Neagh thread (not to blame SF but farming practices in general), so will leave that discussion there where it belongs.

[weareros]

You've verging on making my point for me. I also don't buy the suggestion that FG TDs are resigning because they are facing some sort of an electoral wipeout. As it stands, they are (sadly) the front runners in the polls. That, in conjunction with the fact that seat incumbancy is the best advantage their TDs could ask for, makes it all the more eyebrow raising that over half of them aren't seeking re-election.

Are their TDs getting too hard a time over their government having built the world's most expensive hospital? Or the world's most expensive bike shelter? Or is all not well in the party? Is there some sort of toxicity? Bullying?

Or are we to take our lead from RTÉ and refrain from asking such speculative questions when it comes to Fine Gael?

I think a lot may have made the decision when they were facing a beating from the electorate. But things took a turn. While the Irish working class that looked set to flock to Sinn Fein are left on economic matters, they are similar to British working class in that they are right wing on immigration. So SF looking like it was going to storm to victory have now lost that vote to a motley crew of independents and lost some of younger vote by wavering on things like climate. Fine Gael are really accidentally finding themselves in a stronger position though Harris is clearly more popular with their traditional base than Varadkar. I doubt the hospital will lose votes. Most people know parents who have been in difficult situations with the lack of a top class children's hospital. It will be like Knock Airport back in the day. A lot of criticism but now considered a great investment.

That's a reply that belongs in the WTF Thread! How many times do Fine Gael have to kick people in the ba11s before they stop crawling back for more?
You're talking about a hospital that was supposed to be completed by 2020 and at a budget of €650 million. Would you say delivering it 5 years late (at the earliest), and €1.5 BILLION over budget says about FGs competency? What does the bike shed episode suggest they have learned from the hospital build? And of course people want a modern, fit for purpose children's hospital,  but you're not seriously suggesting that such a thing can't possibly be delivered for any less than €2.2 billion? Accidentally the most expensive hospital ever but ok earth. "Who cares" sez he. Mad.

I said I didn't think it would be a vote loser because Ireland needs a top class children's hospital and in years to come it will prove it's worth. In contrast, look at Grand Central Station in Belfast. That infrastructure project cost over double it's projected amount, maybe even more because John O'Dowd continues to write cheques to cover the rising costs. It's got marble floors (ooh nice) and the boast is that it's bigger than Kings Cross Station in London. While Ireland needed a children's hospital, did Belfast need a bigger train station than London. You often say SF/DUP executive has no power, but I doubt anyone in London put a gun to their head and said the one thing North needs is a train station bigger than Kings Cross with marble floors - especially when John O'Dowd essentially cut much of West of the Bann from the All-Ireland train strategy. So a giant enormous train station (did I say bigger than London which actually handles about 100 million passengers a year) and no feckin train tracks coming anytime in the future. The Children's Hospital will end up costing an exorbitant amount but there's a difference - it was needed and Dublin government is producing the exorbitant surplus money that can cover these costs, while at the same time just dropped another 4 billion into the Ireland's future wealth fund. North on the other hand built this big vanity project and don't have the money to cover pensioner fuel allowances this winter. But will that lose Sinn Fein or DUP one single vote. It won't. Not one feckin vote. And I don't think the children's hospital will cost FG/FF one feckin vote either.

Point of order, it's not just a train station though is it? It'll cater to 20 million a year apparently. And as far as overland train stations go, is King's Cross not one Londons smallest?

The spiralling cost of the children's hospital and the absolute ineptitude should be a vote loser. You can only imagine the brown envelopes being handed over from the very start with the decision to build it in the city... You hooers can't get enough off FF/FG and the establishment

I only mentioned Kings Cross because they were boasting it's bigger than Kings Cross. But an internet search shows KC handles over 70 million passengers per year. Translimk says Grand Central will serve 20 million per year. That might even be an exaggeration because Great Victoria was less than 5 million a year. I smell a bit of bullshit but sure the civil servants must have got the auld sums wrong.

[JoG2]

You've verging on making my point for me. I also don't buy the suggestion that FG TDs are resigning because they are facing some sort of an electoral wipeout. As it stands, they are (sadly) the front runners in the polls. That, in conjunction with the fact that seat incumbancy is the best advantage their TDs could ask for, makes it all the more eyebrow raising that over half of them aren't seeking re-election.

Are their TDs getting too hard a time over their government having built the world's most expensive hospital? Or the world's most expensive bike shelter? Or is all not well in the party? Is there some sort of toxicity? Bullying?

Or are we to take our lead from RTÉ and refrain from asking such speculative questions when it comes to Fine Gael?

I think a lot may have made the decision when they were facing a beating from the electorate. But things took a turn. While the Irish working class that looked set to flock to Sinn Fein are left on economic matters, they are similar to British working class in that they are right wing on immigration. So SF looking like it was going to storm to victory have now lost that vote to a motley crew of independents and lost some of younger vote by wavering on things like climate. Fine Gael are really accidentally finding themselves in a stronger position though Harris is clearly more popular with their traditional base than Varadkar. I doubt the hospital will lose votes. Most people know parents who have been in difficult situations with the lack of a top class children's hospital. It will be like Knock Airport back in the day. A lot of criticism but now considered a great investment.

That's a reply that belongs in the WTF Thread! How many times do Fine Gael have to kick people in the ba11s before they stop crawling back for more?
You're talking about a hospital that was supposed to be completed by 2020 and at a budget of €650 million. Would you say delivering it 5 years late (at the earliest), and €1.5 BILLION over budget says about FGs competency? What does the bike shed episode suggest they have learned from the hospital build? And of course people want a modern, fit for purpose children's hospital,  but you're not seriously suggesting that such a thing can't possibly be delivered for any less than €2.2 billion? Accidentally the most expensive hospital ever but ok earth. "Who cares" sez he. Mad.

I said I didn't think it would be a vote loser because Ireland needs a top class children's hospital and in years to come it will prove it's worth. In contrast, look at Grand Central Station in Belfast. That infrastructure project cost over double it's projected amount, maybe even more because John O'Dowd continues to write cheques to cover the rising costs. It's got marble floors (ooh nice) and the boast is that it's bigger than Kings Cross Station in London. While Ireland needed a children's hospital, did Belfast need a bigger train station than London. You often say SF/DUP executive has no power, but I doubt anyone in London put a gun to their head and said the one thing North needs is a train station bigger than Kings Cross with marble floors - especially when John O'Dowd essentially cut much of West of the Bann from the All-Ireland train strategy. So a giant enormous train station (did I say bigger than London which actually handles about 100 million passengers a year) and no feckin train tracks coming anytime in the future. The Children's Hospital will end up costing an exorbitant amount but there's a difference - it was needed and Dublin government is producing the exorbitant surplus money that can cover these costs, while at the same time just dropped another 4 billion into the Ireland's future wealth fund. North on the other hand built this big vanity project and don't have the money to cover pensioner fuel allowances this winter. But will that lose Sinn Fein or DUP one single vote. It won't. Not one feckin vote. And I don't think the children's hospital will cost FG/FF one feckin vote either.

Point of order, it's not just a train station though is it? It'll cater to 20 million a year apparently. And as far as overland train stations go, is King's Cross not one Londons smallest?

The spiralling cost of the children's hospital and the absolute ineptitude should be a vote loser. You can only imagine the brown envelopes being handed over from the very start with the decision to build it in the city... You hooers can't get enough off FF/FG and the establishment

I only mentioned Kings Cross because they were boasting it's bigger than Kings Cross. But an internet search shows KC handles over 70 million passengers per year. Translimk says Grand Central will serve 20 million per year. That might even be an exaggeration because Great Victoria was less than 5 million a year. I smell a bit of bullshit but sure the civil servants must have got the auld sums wrong.

The train station handles just over 20 million (15th biggest in the UK) , that figure you put up will include the underground and St Pancras.

[weareros]

The train station handles just over 20 million (15th biggest in the UK) , that figure you put up will include the underground and St Pancras.

Fair enough JoG2. I was just quoting multiple claims (eg Steve Bradley) that new Belfast Hub called Grand Central Station is bigger than London's Kings Cross, in size of facility. The 20 million passengers for Belfast is a combination of train and bus (from Victoria and Europa bus). I'll give it a year to see if those numbers hold up or if it's a white elephant. But don't want to go off topic on FG thread anymore.

[JoG2]

The train station handles just over 20 million (15th biggest in the UK) , that figure you put up will include the underground and St Pancras.

Fair enough JoG2. I was just quoting multiple claims (eg Steve Bradley) that new Belfast Hub called Grand Central Station is bigger than London's Kings Cross, in size of facility. The 20 million passengers for Belfast is a combination of train and bus (from Victoria and Europa bus). I'll give it a year to see if those numbers hold up or if it's a white elephant. But don't want to go off topic on FG thread anymore.

That's a big 10-4