Maze Stadium to get go ahead to-day

[SammyG]

while unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.

You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?

[lynchbhoy]

while unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.

You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?

do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?

I had avoided that in my reply to sk.

but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere...

[SammyG]

while unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.

You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?

do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?

I had avoided that in my reply to sk.

but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere...

WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.

[snatter]

The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.

So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?

There are people who have publically backed the Maze, people who have publically backed Belfast and people who have made no comment either way (or not that I've seen). The one thing they all had in common was that they want to see a proper business case (as do we all) not a glossy presentation that has already cost over a million quid.

OK, you're obviously having difficulties, so I'll ask the question again:

So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?

My expectation would have  been that not one pro-Maze committee member walked out yesterday.
You've made the statement to the contrary, so back it up, or withdraw it.

The committe consists of
Alliance Mr Kieran McCarthy (Pro-Maze)
Democratic Unionist Party The Lord Browne (don't know)
Mr Nelson McCausland (pro-Belfast)
Mr Jim Shannon (pro-Belfast)
Sinn Fein Mr Francie Brolly (Pro-Maze)
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Paul Maskey (pro-Maze)
Social Democratic and Labour Party Mr Dominic Bradley (don't know)
Mr Pat Ramsey (don't know)
Ulster Unionist Party Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Ken Robinson (don't know)

The walkouts were McCarthy, Browne, MaCausland, Shannon, McNarry and Robinson (so as I said a split of pro anti and unknow/undecided)

Wrong Sammy.
The truth is that McCarthy of the Alliance Party did not walk out yesterday.
In fact he's on the record as castigating those who did:

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7141497.stm

However, his colleague on the committee, Kieran McCarthy of the Alliance Party, said the situation was "a complete fiasco".
"In my opinion it's an own-goal by our committee. They had the opportunity not only to see what's being proposed, but to ask questions and they threw it out," he said.

As for McNarry, his comments on teh Maze would lead me to suggest that he's neutral / slightly closer to the anti-Maze camp, and most certainly not a pro-Mazer.


Look at his quotes on the matter:

http://www.95fm.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=86513&pt=n

UUP committee vice-chair David McNarry said: "The business plan will incorporate the other options, the minister said these drawings could be taken from the Maze and put in the North Foreshore (a rival application near Belfast).

"We understand that this scheme has changed, they have new seating arrangements. We understand that that has added millions to the cost of a stadium built like this.

"We are being told daily this country can`t afford millions for anything... we are doing our duty."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6912363.stm:

Ulster Unionist committee vice chairman David McNarry asked the minister what impact unionist indignation would have on his decision on whether to take forward the Maze stadium plan.

http://uuptoday.org/newsroom/2007/06/22/kennedy-and-mcnarry-call-on-paisley-to-clear-the-air-over-maze-project/

A stadium does not necessarily have to be built on the Maze site. It could be placed elsewhere or not at all whereas the shrine is a project locked into the business plan adopted by Dr Paisley, who only last week signed a joint letter with Martin McGuinness shutting down the Maze monitoring panel and placing full responsibility for the development of the site with his own offices.

-----------------------------------------

Of course Sammy, if you have any evidence to the contrary, then please submit.

Otherwise, as is the norm when you talk out of your arse without thinking, I'll be requesting that you withdraw your false assertion that

Quote from: SammyG on Today at 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.

[his holiness nb]

while unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.

You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?

do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?

I had avoided that in my reply to sk.

but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere...

WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.

I dont think he was suggesting what happened there is the same as auswich by any means Sammy, and I think you know this too, more so they will be of interest to tourists due to historic events which occurred there.
You obviously dont share the view, but many people regard the hunger strikers as heroes and the hunger strikes as a huge part of our history (many dont) and would be interested in visiting the site.
Thats my understanding of these comments.

Re Unionist guilt, do you really not know what is meant by that? Seems very straightforward.

[lynchbhoy]

while unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.

You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?

do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?

I had avoided that in my reply to sk.

but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere...

WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.

I dont think he was suggesting what happened there is the same as auswich by any means Sammy, and I think you know this too, more so they will be of interest to tourists due to historic events which occurred there.
You obviously dont share the view, but many people regard the hunger strikers as heroes and the hunger strikes as a huge part of our history (many dont) and would be interested in visiting the site.
Thats my understanding of these comments.

Re Unionist guilt, do you really not know what is meant by that? Seems very straightforward.

wasnt even thinking of the hunger strikers and that part of it HH to be honest
I was more thinking of the historical value for future tourism as the name of this place was synonymous with the fighting etc over the 35 years

my comparison was along those lines, a well known name more than anything else.
But now its mentioned, there were a vast majority (nearly all in the early days) of catholics imprisoned there 'charged' with 'membership' that weren't - and the authorities knew this.  But it was part of the 'terror' campaign against Irish/catholic/nationalist/republicans etc and suited the purpose.
but the guilt is beating through with some of these folks who would rather the place was levelled and such 'war crimes' forgotten.
No point in re-hashing old debates though, I think i have demonstrated and outlined their lies enough times previously.

[SammyG]

Wrong Sammy.
The truth is that McCarthy of the Alliance Party did not walk out yesterday.
In fact he's on the record as castigating those who did:

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7141497.stm

However, his colleague on the committee, Kieran McCarthy of the Alliance Party, said the situation was "a complete fiasco".
"In my opinion it's an own-goal by our committee. They had the opportunity not only to see what's being proposed, but to ask questions and they threw it out," he said.

Sorry I read a a different article that listed McCarthy as walking out. Happy to withdraw the comment if he didn't (although to be honest you could read his post as castigating the walkouts or as castigating Poots for not delivering, so you'd need to see the context).

As far as McNarry he has stated several times that he supports the Maze, in principal but wants to see the business case. He walked out yesterday as yet again, no business case or costings were put forward

[snatter]

while unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.

You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?

do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?

I had avoided that in my reply to sk.

but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere...

WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.

I dont think he was suggesting what happened there is the same as auswich by any means Sammy, and I think you know this too, more so they will be of interest to tourists due to historic events which occurred there.
You obviously dont share the view, but many people regard the hunger strikers as heroes and the hunger strikes as a huge part of our history (many dont) and would be interested in visiting the site.
Thats my understanding of these comments.

Re Unionist guilt, do you really not know what is meant by that? Seems very straightforward.

Chaps,

you're both entitled to hold different personal opinions on the conflict, and on what should happen to the listed H block.

But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.

I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.

[his holiness nb]

Good point snatter, back to the topic!

[SammyG]

Chaps,

you're both entitled to hold different personal opinions on the conflict, and on what should happen to the listed H block.

But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.

I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.

It would be great if that were true but unfortunatelty the ONLY reason that the Maze is being proposed for the stadium is because of the H Blocks. If the H Blocks didn't exist nobody in there right mind would be proposing building a stadium in a field in the middle of nowhere.

[lynchbhoy]

It would be great if that were true but unfortunatelty the ONLY reason that the Maze is being proposed for the stadium is because of the H Blocks. If the H Blocks didn't exist nobody in there right mind would be proposing building a stadium in a field in the middle of nowhere.

that sounds like a pro-belfast stadium dev persons 'reasoning' for the stadium being built out in lisburn area.

may I suggest the reason for it is nothing to do with whats already there but the fact that theres a lot of free space doing nothing (I cant believe you or anyone else would think there was any kind of link - thats f**king bizzare if not hilarious).

anyway, my pref for the record is a site somewhere that would be easily accessible and advantageous to all main sports - so I think geographically and transport-wise the dungannon area would be best suited. I dont particularly like the town, but its not that bad and lets face it, far better located for everything really as a compromise.

[snatter]

Chaps,

you're both entitled to hold different personal opinions on the conflict, and on what should happen to the listed H block.

But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.

I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.

It would be great if that were true but unfortunatelty the ONLY reason that the Maze is being proposed for the stadium is because of the H Blocks. If the H Blocks didn't exist nobody in there right mind would be proposing building a stadium in a field in the middle of nowhere.

Not true Sammy.

We've arrived a this point because, way back in 1999, it was recognised that stadium provision in NI was sub-standard.
The NI sports council made representations to Westminster that NI needed a new stadium, especially after seeing Wales get theirs.

Initially, the stadium was projected as being for only soccer and rugby, but it was made clear to the NI sports council that it was politically unacceptable to exclude the most attended sport in NI, namely gaelic football.
They were told that their chances of funding would be dependent on the project as being seen as genuinely inclusive.

The stated attraction of the Maze site are that
1. it is the only site so far identified as being acceptable to all three sports governing bodies.
2. its free (unlike the Belfast harbour estate)
3. its available immediatley
4. its conveniently located  for the majority of fans who will actually go there.
5. no planning issues (unlike Ormeau)

Its important to note that no alternative sites have been identified in four years of trying by the anti-Maze lobby.

Having said that, the choice of location is of course politically symbolic in a "swords into plough shares" sort of way.
Our political masters and bankrollers would love to point to a project that's a symbolic legacy of how far we've travelled in realising that if we co-operate then we get things done for the greater good.

The only people attempting to link the stadium to the H block are the shinners and the anti-Maze brigade.
Re the former, you would expect this, you'd assume that they'd be more interested in a memorial to their hunger strikers than in any new stadium.
And for the latter, they will use any excuse in their deluded quest for a UK treasury funded soccer stadium of ther own - just big enough for them, but too small for the gaa (still the most atteneded sport in NI by a country mile).

[SammyG]

The stated attraction of the Maze site are that
1. it is the only site so far identified as being acceptable to all three sports governing bodies.

Only becaiuse one sport (which won't even use the bloody thing) was allowed a politically motivated veto

2. its free (unlike the Belfast harbour estate)

Are you insane, how is 100's of millions (and rising daily) free?

3. its available immediatley

So's my back garden but it still wouldn't make a very good spot for a stadium

4. its conveniently located  for the majority of fans who will actually go there.

Complete lie. There is one single carriage road for access or egress, no public transport and no plans to provide any, no facilities (bars hotels etc)

5. no planning issues (unlike Ormeau)

Total red herring.

Its important to note that no alternative sites have been identified in four years of trying by the anti-Maze lobby.

Another lie. There have been several alternatives

The only people attempting to link the stadium to the H block are the shinners and the anti-Maze brigade.

err what are you on about?

Re the former, you would expect this, you'd assume that they'd be more interested in a memorial to their hunger strikers than in any new stadium.

Correct (strange that they were able to coax/co-erce the GAA into backing them)

And for the latter, they will use any excuse in their deluded quest for a UK treasury funded soccer stadium of ther own - just big enough for them, but too small for the gaa (still the most atteneded sport in NI by a country mile).

Complete and utter bollix.

[Leo]

The inference that the GAA was co-erced by the Shinners is a disgraceful lie. Withdraw it.
The GAA was lobbied by government to come on board on a new stadium as it would not be viable without the. There may be nervousness about presenting the full economic case as this is what it will shoe in stark terms.
Clearly a lot of the unionist opposition is more to do with GAA use of the stadium, yet that is the only sport which will consistently draw the crowds necessary.
Having said that I think the choice of vebue is barmy. All European evidence shows that out-of-town stadia doe not create the economic dynamic needed to maximise the return from the project.

[lynchbhoy]

Correct (strange that they were able to coax/co-erce the GAA into backing them)

now thats complete and utter bollix as you put it
SF haqve no influence over the GAA
I'd say it would be more likely that the Brit gov had a word with the Irish gov who then asked the GAA to go along with this and they had a word with the Ulster council.
Its a political decision - and the GA have been asked to go along with it in this new spirit of co-operation and convergence etc etc

I would say the GAA will play games there , but if its located closer into Belfast, that wont happen as often - if at all.