Players on Strike?/Real Debate (Merged)

[Clubmember]

You or I don't bring in millions of euros to the GAA coffers or government in form of revenue, so why would we be entitled to it?

The players don't bring in the bucks either. It's what Jerry Seinfeld called 'rooting for laundry'.

How do you mean they don't bring in the bucks?
Tv Rights
Sponsorship
Gate receipts

Check out the GAA accounts to see exactly how much money players generate.

[The Police]

I have yet to hear an inter-county player state how they're out of pocket playing for their county. Until they do, and I know it would be hard to do so without incurring abuse, then I don't buy the striking issue.

A couple have on here said that they manage teams and would welcome a few pounds for it in terms of the time they spend doing so. Of course you would. Unfortunately that's the world 70-80% of the population have signed up to. I never will. If you don't want to put the time in for simply the love of it, don't do it.

[deiseach]

How do you mean they don't bring in the bucks?
Tv Rights
Sponsorship
Gate receipts

Check out the GAA accounts to see exactly how much money players generate.

Many people watch their own counties. Others watch for the sport. Few (if any) watch individual players. People deride (rightly) the jersey-kissing antics of Waterford players, but it does tell you about the motivation of eveyone involved.

[darbyo]

A couple have on here said that they manage teams and would welcome a few pounds for it in terms of the time they spend doing so. Of course you would. Unfortunately that's the world 70-80% of the population have signed up to. I never will. If you don't want to put the time in for simply the love of it, don't do it.

Hang on a second there that is not what was said. You're trying to make out like I said 'I do a bit of gardening out my back but it would be better if I got paid like a landscape gardener', that's simply not the case. I can only speak for myself and I never take money from my club to train teams but this past year I trained the U8,10,12 and senior club team, I don't live in my home town anymore so it involved a 4 hour round trip at least 5 nights a week when all teams were going. I also trained my University team, I accepted neither expenses nor payment for any team. Now I did all this purely out of passion for football and a desire to prepare my various club teams properly, especially the under age kids. Don't get me wrong I love it, but it is very tiring and at adult level picking teams, organizing challenge matches etc, is also very time consuming.
               Now if I moved further up the country I could no longer stay involved with my home club, but I'd love to still stay involved in football, I think I know my stuff and if I got a few bob for it the club I trained would get back far more in terms of time commitment and (I think) knowledge than what it paid for. And I think it's quite unfair for lads to say you're ruining the GAA or you're only trying to line your own pockets etc., when infact quality coaching at underage especially can make a huge difference to the future of the club. Like everything else there are good coaches and bad coaches unfortunately some bad ones can still command a fee and these give people a stick to beat you with. Oh and just to reiterate I have yet to take a brown cent for coaching any team, I'm just saying that I don't feel I'd be the devil reincarnate if in the future I did.
And sorry if my post sounds like an application for 'most commited GAA man of the year award', I'm just giving some context to my point of view.

[deiseach]

And sorry if my post sounds like an application for 'most commited GAA man of the year award', I'm just giving some context to my point of view.

You'll have more than a few boyos challenging you to pissing contests before long.

[darbyo]

 , yeah I'm already regretting the post.

[ONeill]

You said:

But it is so time consuming that I would feel justified in taking a few bob if offered.

That (and sorry about The Police post - I forgot to change) I don't understand. You're either upholding your amateur ethos that you admire and sign up to, or you bury your head in the sand and add to the mossy ball by accepting a bit here and there. Whether it's your club or not means nothing. Petrol money etc should be looked after. But receiving a brown envelope beyond then it's wrong in my book.

[darbyo]

You're either upholding your amateur ethos that you admire and sign up to, or you bury your head in the sand and add to the mossy ball by accepting a bit here and there. Whether it's your club or not means nothing. Petrol money etc should be looked after. But receiving a brown envelope beyond then it's wrong in my book.

See this is where we differ, I don't think it is as simple as that. Between phone calls, planning out a periodized training structure, checking on players, attending meetings, keeping up to date on fixtures, going to see future opponents etc., it is a hugely demanding job in terms of time and energy. And for me personally, I'd want to be involved at the 8-14 level to ensure the club is coaching the fundamentals in the best way. In a perfect world (where I was also a millionaire) I would never take any money for coaching the sport I love, but why should I give up my time for free when other coaches are going in and getting a few pound for it. In my own club the senior hurling coach was getting paid, yet it was costing me money to do the football.
                The reality is that I'd actually feel embarrassed for taking money but I have bills to pay like everyone else, I'm a qualified Sports Scientist with a life long involvement in the GAA, yet the coach before me may have been paid and the one after me might be aswell. I'd surely be a fool to offer my services for nothing when chancers are out there getting paid. My involvement in the GAA team would also rule out taking a rugby or soccer team for whom I'd only coach for money. If nobody got paid for coaching then that would be fine but the level of preparation now demanded by players means it is very demanding 'hobby'. I feel I could sleep easy at night if I was paid as I know I give more than what I get. Mercenary coaches are a blight on the GAA, but genuine quality coaches justify some monetary reward IMO.

[ONeill]

Yes, we won't agree. You said:

but why should I give up my time for free when other coaches are going in and getting a few pound for it.

That encapsulates your argument. Why would what others earn or their attitude on this issue affect your views of the GAA ethos?
You either agree with the amateur stance or you don't.

[darbyo]

Again O'Neill you excessively simplify the argument. You either agree or disagree with a certain principal there is no grey area it seems. This I disagree with, though I must admit that I felt a bit uneasy writing the particular line you quoted but it is still a fair point. You haven't addressed any of my points about the time and effort etc. now demanded of modern coaches even at club level. My own father was a coach on and off for many years, but he didn't plan out 6 week programs based on peaking for a particular match. Nor id he go to future opponents matches to see what tactics they employed etc.
The GAA has changed there are full time employees now running
the organisation this is now a sport not quite professional but no longer amateur.There is another thread about the development of the GAA in Britain and in it jobs for development officers are advertised. These are the realities of the modern GAA and I don't think it is aparticularly bad situation to be in. Like I've said playersd generally don't mind coaches getting paid if they are worth it, clubs want success and are willing to fund it and coaches who are good,commit a serious amount of time to their task. Is it really a terrible evil?

[ONeill]

It's not a terrible evil and those who accept payment are not villianous people.

However, players can compare what a manager does to what he does. Top class players train outside of offical training, maybe 5-6 nights a week. They put in as much mental preparation as a manager as well as much more physical effort. They are equally as accountable. If managers are seen to be accepting payment for their efforts, then players will expect similar treatment for what they see as greater effort during the week and on the day.

Accepting money, even though it's willingly offered (always for the hope of instant success btw), starts a ball rolling that cannot be halted. You either remain amateur in terms of fiscal rewards or you don't.

Should teachers who take 2-3 school teams after school in terms of training and competitive matches be paid extra also? They don't. God help us if it gets to that stage.

I'm not attacking you, darbyo, but I simply abhor your outlook on the financial entitlements of a GAA manager (beyond reimbursed expenses). You're buying into a psyche I cannot abide in modern Ireland.

[darbyo]

You're buying into a psyche I cannot abide in modern Ireland.

With respect I think that's a bit unfair O'Neill, I've never taken money from the GAA (and may never do) I just feel that I could do (as a coach) without becoming a self serving mercenary. Again I'm slow to type this as I'm not sure how it comes across when others who don't know me read it, but if I was paid by a club to train a senior team I'd probably spend the money on a set of jersey's for the under age kids (to keep) and a meal and a few drinks for the senior team at the end of the year as a token of gratitude for the effort put in. You seem to think I buy into the idea that you don't give something for nothing, well you couldn't be further from the truth. I just feel you're on dodgy ground, coaches, managers and even some players (if rumours are to be believed) especially in Ulster are getting paid for their involvement in the GAA. The horses have bolted on this one already, I feel, so it isn't a question of closing the gate but managing the situation to the advantage of the overall organization.
                  You make a valid point about teachers but many schools are now finding it difficult to get teachers to take schools teams and there is talk of allowing teachers who take schools teams to be reimbursed for this as overtime (I think).
        I admire and largely agree with your general point of view but feel that you're fighting a battle already lost and more importantly I disagree that it will lead to professionalism in the GAA, which I think you suggested.

[INDIANA]

I'm not attacking you, darbyo, but I simply abhor your outlook on the financial entitlements of a GAA manager (beyond reimbursed expenses). You're buying into a psyche I cannot abide in modern Ireland.

i don't agree with that statement.Many Gaa managers lose money from training teams -now if you have a family that's not really an acceptable state of affairs. You spend far more time as a manager than you did as a player on ana average week. this i've found out myself and i played to a very high level at one point so i know the time required n terms of training as  a player. I've no problem with a manager being reimbursed for loss of earnings- and i don't believe the theory that's it's sympotmatic of modern Ireland. It's called basic economics.
What i have a problem with is managers who are paid by the training session and who flog inter county players into the ground to line their own pockets. The GPA have to realise there limit to teh standards that can be achieved within and amateur framework and the time now is to cut back the training at inter county level- a lot of which is simply aimed at stamina levels- causes burn-out and reduces the shelf life of inter county players. I believe teams returning to training before christmas should be universally banned.
PLayers should get all the perks going- but equally too i've no problem with a manager being paid loss of earnings where he has genuinely lost money in coaching  ateam. But being paid by the training session- or those cases of managers who don't work at all- and are effectively paid a salary- i've no time for. That report that came out recently -should be accepted and implemented immediately-other wise we're heading towards professionalism with these ridiculous training schedules players are asked to keep.
There have been paid officals within the GAA since its inception- does the GPA now want to reward every player since the 60's with a cut of the Gate receipts of every game they played in? Because it appears to me they don't seem to know exactly what they want or what exactly they stand for. I'd just like to remind people there were bigger crowds at finals in the 60's then  watched this year's all-ireland finals.

[darbyo]

I'd just like to remind people there were bigger crowds at finals in the 60's then  watched this year's all-ireland finals.

In fairness that has as much to do with terracing and health & saftey standards as anything else.

What i have a problem with is managers who are paid by the training session and who flog inter county players into the ground to line their own pockets.

Absolutly correct, as I've said mercenary managers are a blight on the association, but paying genuine managers is not a problem IMO. Most quaility coaches understand the benefits of rest and should have no problem with an off season.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

We have had an Actuaries Report commissioned; the first independent scientific evaluation of the costs involved for inter-county players due to their substantial commitment to teams. Depending on the duration of service, anywhere from €100,000 to €150,000 was estimated as the cost of an average county career.

This proposal detailed an extensive list of vouched expenses incurred by inter-county players.

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Above are 2 actual quotes from the GPA website about the grants process etc.....I assume they aren't lying about the report as it would be easily checked by the GAA during negotiations....the idea of vouched expenses also surely is an idea that can't be argued with either is it???