About time too, I say ;D
"Maze Stadium to get go ahead to-day"
You do have difficulty separating fact and fiction, don't you? Poots is making a presentation to his fellow MLA's at Stormont on the proposed stadium.
It needs to be ratified by them before it can "go ahead". In particular, it needs the support of the Finance Minister, Peter Robinson, who presumably will be influenced by his fellow DUP members, at least some of them are known to have reservations over the proposal.
So my advice is don't skip lunch whilst waiting for any announcement... ;)
Will the DUP say yes to anything whilst in power sharing. Seemed to be pissed at the education ministers plans, pissed at the maze stadium idea of being built in Lisburn. One of their prominant members using his influence for Mr Seymour. FFS they haven't an ounce of sense...and worst don't seem to give a hoot about how it looks to the public. What can you expect...they sold their voters a real dummy run...so they have the face for anything.
Apparently the DUP and UUP have walked out of the meeting about the Maze Stadium this morning in protest.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 13, 2007, 12:29:55 PM
Will the DUP say yes to anything whilst in power sharing. Seemed to be pissed at the education ministers plans, pissed at the maze stadium idea of being built in Lisburn. One of their prominant members using his influence for Mr Seymour. FFS they haven't an ounce of sense...and worst don't seem to give a hoot about how it looks to the public. What can you expect...they sold their voters a real dummy run...so they have the face for anything.
True enough about their craven willingness to sacrifice any "principles" they might ever have held in pursuit of what they deem to be their own (personal?) interests. But I'm not sure how the Maze benefits them, other than a couple of MLA's in whose constituency it will be built (Ahem, Edwin Poots? Wee Jeffrey?).
Of course, they might still back it as part of horse trading with their new boyfriends in SF. However, this one might be a little harder to swallow, since it involves Robinson signing a very large cheque indeed, at a time when schools and hospitals etc are crying out for more money. And whatever else you think of him, Peter Robinson generally guages which way the wind is blowing on such matters pretty accurately.
True, Robinson has proven to be a very sherwd dude, very seldom gets exposed, perhaps occassionally he lets his secterian mask down, but other than that has proven to good at his job so far, but at the sdame time he has not had to have dealt with any of the contentious issues.
I'd rather the money was spent on having at least one decent hospital west of the Bann. NI doesn't need this stadium anymore than any other region of the UK needs a stadium paid for by the government.
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 12:51:13 PM
I'd rather the money was spent on having at least one decent hospital west of the Bann. NI doesn't need this stadium anymore than any other region of the UK needs a stadium paid for by the government.
Not going to argue with you about a decent hospital, but NI soccer team do need a new stadium as Windsor is a decrepit and unsafe shithole.
Let the IFA build them one then.
'Let the IFA build them one then.'
Yeah, a 10,000-seater should be sufficient ... sure they can even give the contract to their chief executive
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 13, 2007, 12:24:26 PM
"Maze Stadium to get go ahead to-day"
You do have difficulty separating fact and fiction, don't you? Poots is making a presentation to his fellow MLA's at Stormont on the proposed stadium.
It needs to be ratified by them before it can "go ahead". In particular, it needs the support of the Finance Minister, Peter Robinson, who presumably will be influenced by his fellow DUP members, at least some of them are known to have reservations over the proposal.
So my advice is don't skip lunch whilst waiting for any announcement... ;)
Wrong, it does not need to be ratified by the Assembly, only the Minister concerned. The Brit government have already promised the additional monies to fund it, so it doesn't even need Robinson's approval, even though he would like everyone to believe he runs the show.
When will people learn? This stadium is not the exclusive preserve of the Unionist North East of Ireland soccer team. GAA and Rugby will also be tenants. All three sports bodies have signed up,uniquely, the Brits are supplying the cash (robbed from Ireland over the last 800 odd years), so why even involve local politicians? Get the Bull Dozers warmed up now, ffs >:(
What's the rush? the GAA are not desperate.
Quote from: T Fearon on December 13, 2007, 01:22:32 PM
When will people learn? This stadium is not the exclusive preserve of the Unionist North East of Ireland soccer team. GAA and Rugby will also be tenants. All three sports bodies have signed up,uniquely, the Brits are supplying the cash (robbed from Ireland over the last 800 odd years), so why even involve local politicians? Get the Bull Dozers warmed up now, ffs >:(
The GAA and rugby don't need it and have only signed up because they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's a white elephant and a disgraceful waste of funds when the health service in Northern Ireland is at crisis point.
QuoteIt's a white elephant and a disgraceful waste of funds
Totally.
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
The GAA and rugby don't need it and have only signed up because they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's a white elephant and a disgraceful waste of funds when the health service in Northern Ireland is at crisis point.
Is it really? I thought it had improved no end over the past few years.
Quote from: Donagh on December 13, 2007, 03:22:09 PM
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
The GAA and rugby don't need it and have only signed up because they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's a white elephant and a disgraceful waste of funds when the health service in Northern Ireland is at crisis point.
Is it really? I thought it had improved no end over the past few years.
Oh yeah? It hasn't improved much in Omagh, but then Omagh doesn't really have a Health Service any more. And have a look at this link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7140488.stm It's a disaster. It would even make Harneys lot look good!!
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 03:41:35 PM
Quote from: Donagh on December 13, 2007, 03:22:09 PM
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
The GAA and rugby don't need it and have only signed up because they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's a white elephant and a disgraceful waste of funds when the health service in Northern Ireland is at crisis point.
Is it really? I thought it had improved no end over the past few years.
Oh yeah? It hasn't improved much in Omagh, but then Omagh doesn't really have a Health Service any more. And have a look at this link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7140488.stm It's a disaster. It would even make Harneys lot look good!!
One hospital is hardly crisis point. I know a few people working in the NHS and they all reckon there have been big improvements over the past few years. Waiting times for surgery have all been brought down to under 6 months (vast improvement), no trolley waits, general cleanliness standards are clear for anyone to see when visiting the hospitals (well Craigavon, the City and Royal), casualty waiting times down significantly in the major hospitals etc...
QuoteI know a few people working in the NHS and they all reckon there have been big improvements over the past few years.
In that case it's unfortunate that it isn't NHS staff that are the ultimate judges of a good health service. It's the public who decide that. People like my father who, when they break their hip, have to spend 5 days in Altnagelvin (as Omagh no longer handle injuries requiring an orthopaedic surgeon) before eventually getting transferred across the border to Sligo General to get it sorted.
Quote from: Donagh on December 13, 2007, 03:57:03 PM
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 03:41:35 PM
Quote from: Donagh on December 13, 2007, 03:22:09 PM
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
The GAA and rugby don't need it and have only signed up because they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's a white elephant and a disgraceful waste of funds when the health service in Northern Ireland is at crisis point.
Is it really? I thought it had improved no end over the past few years.
Oh yeah? It hasn't improved much in Omagh, but then Omagh doesn't really have a Health Service any more. And have a look at this link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7140488.stm It's a disaster. It would even make Harneys lot look good!!
One hospital is hardly crisis point. I know a few people working in the NHS and they all reckon there have been big improvements over the past few years. Waiting times for surgery have all been brought down to under 6 months (vast improvement), no trolley waits, general cleanliness standards are clear for anyone to see when visiting the hospitals (well Craigavon, the City and Royal), casualty waiting times down significantly in the major hospitals etc...
None of them are in the West, which started this Donagh ;)
The amount of wastage in the Health Service is a joke. The last thing it needs is more money to be thrown at it to waste
Quote from: T Fearon on December 13, 2007, 01:22:32 PM
Get the Bull Dozers warmed up now, ffs >:(
I agree. Flatten the H-Blocks!
Quote from: Star Spangler on December 13, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 13, 2007, 01:22:32 PM
When will people learn? This stadium is not the exclusive preserve of the Unionist North East of Ireland soccer team. GAA and Rugby will also be tenants. All three sports bodies have signed up,uniquely, the Brits are supplying the cash (robbed from Ireland over the last 800 odd years), so why even involve local politicians? Get the Bull Dozers warmed up now, ffs >:(
The GAA and rugby don't need it and have only signed up because they don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's a white elephant and a disgraceful waste of funds when the health service in Northern Ireland is at crisis point.
Wrong.
The GAA strategic review identified the provison of a 40k+ capacity (at least 2/3 covered and seated) as a priority for Ulster.
We either go down the ourselves alone route at substantial cost (say £50Million) or get this practically free (say 500k rent per year).
One serious question snatter- how long would it take the GAA to pay off a stadium on 500K a year, that they would then own, and be able to make revenue off themselves with games and related entertainment (concerts etc)
Lets get the stadium built at the maze before the funding is pulled. The shafties are simply going to have to travel a few mile to get to the norths games. Big Rab better get the bulldozer ready. I look forward to seeing his arse hauled off to jail after he has a go at the memorial.
The H blocks should stand and not be bulldozed. They are part of history now and just because they are an embarassment to the unionists does not mean what happened there should be forgotten.
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
Big Rab better get the bulldozer ready. I look forward to seeing his arse hauled off to jail after he has a go at the memorial.
Whats this about?
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
The H blocks should stand and not be bulldozed. They are part of history now and just because they are an embarassment to the unionists does not mean what happened there should be forgotten.
So the bloodshed isn't an embarassment to you then Stew?
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
The H blocks should stand and not be bulldozed. They are part of history now and just because they are an embarassment to the unionists does not mean what happened there should be forgotten.
This is exactly why Solomon Kane wants them demolished.
I cant see why unionist bloodshed would embarrass Stew btw ???
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
Lets get the stadium built at the maze before the funding is pulled. The shafties are simply going to have to travel a few mile to get to the norths games. Big Rab better get the bulldozer ready. I look forward to seeing his arse hauled off to jail after he has a go at the memorial.
Is Big Rab still slabbering away? What about Roger he was a real piece of work :-X :-X :-X
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 13, 2007, 07:36:04 PM
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
The H blocks should stand and not be bulldozed. They are part of history now and just because they are an embarassment to the unionists does not mean what happened there should be forgotten.
This is exactly why Solomon Kane wants them demolished.
I cant see why unionist bloodshed would embarrass Stew btw ???
So it was just unionists caused the bloodshed? Was that all a big Brit-Inspired lie that the Provos detonated bombs and shot people? If anyone wants a memorial to the conflict there are more than enough of them in cemetaries the length and bredth if Northern Ireland and beyond.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 13, 2007, 08:06:41 PM
So it was just unionists caused the bloodshed? Was that all a big Brit-Inspired lie that the Provos detonated bombs and shot people?
??? what a strange post, I never said anything of the sorts, of course there were atrocities on both sides ::)
Quote from: nifan on December 13, 2007, 05:30:29 PM
One serious question snatter- how long would it take the GAA to pay off a stadium on 500K a year, that they would then own, and be able to make revenue off themselves with games and related entertainment (concerts etc)
I'm no accountant or banker, but finger in the air calculation:
Borrowing 50 million GBP at 6% (libor + 1%) over 50 years would need annual repayments of about
3 million per year.
Total interest paid over 50 years would be about 108 Million.
Assuming inflation rate of 4.5%, interest in real terms over period would be over 50 million, ie twice the cost of building it.
So simple answer on how long it would take GAA to repay loan for our own 50 million stadium, at repayment rate of 500k pa?
We would never repay it because we wouldn't get anybody to lend for such a long repayment period, I guess somewhere itro 400 years.
Thats why 500k pa rent is such a no brainer - its a bargain for what we're getting.
Assuming of course that the unionists can stomach having a gaelic player about the place.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 13, 2007, 06:17:29 PM
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
The H blocks should stand and not be bulldozed. They are part of history now and just because they are an embarassment to the unionists does not mean what happened there should be forgotten.
So the bloodshed isn't an embarassment to you then Stew?
Of course it is, but I dont think that bulldozing history serves any purpose.
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2007, 08:01:23 PM
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
Lets get the stadium built at the maze before the funding is pulled. The shafties are simply going to have to travel a few mile to get to the norths games. Big Rab better get the bulldozer ready. I look forward to seeing his arse hauled off to jail after he has a go at the memorial.
Is Big Rab still slabbering away? What about Roger he was a real piece of work :-X :-X :-X
He was but Peter from castlederg was the absolute worst...................bar wee marty and mac that is.
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 11:29:28 PM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 13, 2007, 06:17:29 PM
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
The H blocks should stand and not be bulldozed. They are part of history now and just because they are an embarassment to the unionists does not mean what happened there should be forgotten.
So the bloodshed isn't an embarassment to you then Stew?
Of course it is, but I dont think that bulldozing history serves any purpose.
It does. They bull-dozed Fred West's house because it was a blot on the landscape. History is one thing, but when the relatives of the slain and those maimed are still alive, a shrine to the butchers is nothing but another insult to them. There is a total lack of sensitivity to the victims in this case, no matter who chooses to make make heros out of the paramilitaries.
Quote from: ziggysego on December 13, 2007, 12:33:01 PM
Apparently the DUP and UUP have walked out of the meeting about the Maze Stadium this morning in protest.
They walked out because Poots refused to discuss the business case (because there isn't one) or the details of how much has been spent on consultants etc. Instead he wanted to use the MLAs as cover for yet another PR launch and not surprisingly they told him to go away (or words to that effect). The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
I have read in the past that the intention is to use this stadium for Olympic soccer matches. If that is right they would need to be getting a move on. It takes time to put the infastructure in place for a stadium of this size. It's not just about building the park itself.
The photos are impressive and I look forward to going to matches there when its built.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
Apart from the three glossy photos, were any other design details releasesd yesterday?
Stuff like pitch dimensions, exact details of how the flexible 35k/42k seating arrangment would work.
Are they using temporary seating?
How they would make the stadium look more full when smaller crowds are there, eg when NI soccer is being played?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
There are people who have publically backed the Maze, people who have publically backed Belfast and people who have made no comment either way (or not that I've seen). The one thing they all had in common was that they want to see a proper business case (as do we all) not a glossy presentation that has already cost over a million quid.
Quote from: Sky Blue on December 14, 2007, 08:38:28 AM
I have read in the past that the intention is to use this stadium for Olympic soccer matches. If that is right they would need to be getting a move on. It takes time to put the infastructure in place for a stadium of this size. It's not just about building the park itself.
The Olympics is a complete red herring. Olympic football attracts crowds of 5-10000 and would be dwarfed at the Maze.
Quote from: Sky Blue on December 14, 2007, 08:38:28 AM
The photos are impressive and I look forward to going to matches there when its built.
Not surprising they're impressive. If somebody gave me over a million quid I coould produce a few cracking photos.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 08:54:54 AM
Apart from the three glossy photos, were any other design details releasesd yesterday?
Stuff like pitch dimensions, exact details of how the flexible 35k/42k seating arrangment would work.
Are they using temporary seating?
How they would make the stadium look more full when smaller crowds are there, eg when NI soccer is being played?
Nio mention of any details at all, either about the design or the business case, just more Poots propagnada. That's why there was a walkout, the MLAs were promised a detailed presentation and didn't get one.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:00:35 AM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
There are people who have publically backed the Maze, people who have publically backed Belfast and people who have made no comment either way (or not that I've seen). The one thing they all had in common was that they want to see a proper business case (as do we all) not a glossy presentation that has already cost over a million quid.
OK, you're obviously having difficulties, so I'll ask the question again:
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
My expectation would have been that not one pro-Maze committee member walked out yesterday.
You've made the statement to the contrary, so back it up, or withdraw it.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:00:35 AM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
There are people who have publically backed the Maze, people who have publically backed Belfast and people who have made no comment either way (or not that I've seen). The one thing they all had in common was that they want to see a proper business case (as do we all) not a glossy presentation that has already cost over a million quid.
OK, you're obviously having difficulties, so I'll ask the question again:
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
My expectation would have been that not one pro-Maze committee member walked out yesterday.
You've made the statement to the contrary, so back it up, or withdraw it.
The committe consists of
Alliance Mr Kieran McCarthy (Pro-Maze)
Democratic Unionist Party The Lord Browne (don't know)
Mr Nelson McCausland (pro-Belfast)
Mr Jim Shannon (pro-Belfast)
Sinn Fein Mr Francie Brolly (Pro-Maze)
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Paul Maskey (pro-Maze)
Social Democratic and Labour Party Mr Dominic Bradley (don't know)
Mr Pat Ramsey (don't know)
Ulster Unionist Party Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Ken Robinson (don't know)
The walkouts were McCarthy, Browne, MaCausland, Shannon, McNarry and Robinson (so as I said a split of pro anti and unknow/undecided)
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 13, 2007, 08:06:41 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 13, 2007, 07:36:04 PM
Quote from: stew on December 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
The H blocks should stand and not be bulldozed. They are part of history now and just because they are an embarassment to the unionists does not mean what happened there should be forgotten.
This is exactly why Solomon Kane wants them demolished.
I cant see why unionist bloodshed would embarrass Stew btw ???
So it was just unionists caused the bloodshed? Was that all a big Brit-Inspired lie that the Provos detonated bombs and shot people? If anyone wants a memorial to the conflict there are more than enough of them in cemetaries the length and bredth if Northern Ireland and beyond.
while unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.
this is a seperate issue to the building of a new stadium.
Again I'd like to see a municipal communal stadium build further out towards Dungannon where it would suit GAA and rugby more imo.
OK this woud be further afield from the soccer heartland (windsor park locale etc) but if its a central accessible stadium for the future, then it shoul dbe further out than lisburn - which both sides of the community dislike and think is a sh*thole.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:42:18 AMwhile unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.
You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:45:39 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:42:18 AMwhile unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.
You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?
do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?
I had avoided that in my reply to sk.
but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere... ::)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:45:39 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:42:18 AMwhile unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.
You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?
do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?
I had avoided that in my reply to sk.
but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere... ::)
WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:35:05 AM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:00:35 AM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
There are people who have publically backed the Maze, people who have publically backed Belfast and people who have made no comment either way (or not that I've seen). The one thing they all had in common was that they want to see a proper business case (as do we all) not a glossy presentation that has already cost over a million quid.
OK, you're obviously having difficulties, so I'll ask the question again:
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
My expectation would have been that not one pro-Maze committee member walked out yesterday.
You've made the statement to the contrary, so back it up, or withdraw it.
The committe consists of
Alliance Mr Kieran McCarthy (Pro-Maze)
Democratic Unionist Party The Lord Browne (don't know)
Mr Nelson McCausland (pro-Belfast)
Mr Jim Shannon (pro-Belfast)
Sinn Fein Mr Francie Brolly (Pro-Maze)
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Paul Maskey (pro-Maze)
Social Democratic and Labour Party Mr Dominic Bradley (don't know)
Mr Pat Ramsey (don't know)
Ulster Unionist Party Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Ken Robinson (don't know)
The walkouts were McCarthy, Browne, MaCausland, Shannon, McNarry and Robinson (so as I said a split of pro anti and unknow/undecided)
Wrong Sammy.
The truth is that McCarthy of the Alliance Party did not walk out yesterday.
In fact he's on the record as castigating those who did:
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7141497.stm
QuoteHowever, his colleague on the committee, Kieran McCarthy of the Alliance Party, said the situation was "a complete fiasco".
"In my opinion it's an own-goal by our committee. They had the opportunity not only to see what's being proposed, but to ask questions and they threw it out," he said.
As for McNarry, his comments on teh Maze would lead me to suggest that he's neutral / slightly closer to the anti-Maze camp, and
most certainly not a pro-Mazer.
Look at his quotes on the matter:
http://www.95fm.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=86513&pt=n
QuoteUUP committee vice-chair David McNarry said: "The business plan will incorporate the other options, the minister said these drawings could be taken from the Maze and put in the North Foreshore (a rival application near Belfast).
"We understand that this scheme has changed, they have new seating arrangements. We understand that that has added millions to the cost of a stadium built like this.
"We are being told daily this country can`t afford millions for anything... we are doing our duty."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6912363.stm:
QuoteUlster Unionist committee vice chairman David McNarry asked the minister what impact unionist indignation would have on his decision on whether to take forward the Maze stadium plan.
http://uuptoday.org/newsroom/2007/06/22/kennedy-and-mcnarry-call-on-paisley-to-clear-the-air-over-maze-project/
QuoteA stadium does not necessarily have to be built on the Maze site. It could be placed elsewhere or not at all whereas the shrine is a project locked into the business plan adopted by Dr Paisley, who only last week signed a joint letter with Martin McGuinness shutting down the Maze monitoring panel and placing full responsibility for the development of the site with his own offices.
-----------------------------------------
Of course Sammy, if you have any evidence to the contrary, then please submit.
Otherwise, as is the norm when you talk out of your arse without thinking, I'll be requesting that you withdraw your false assertion that
QuoteQuote from: SammyG on Today at 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:50:37 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:45:39 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:42:18 AMwhile unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.
You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?
do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?
I had avoided that in my reply to sk.
but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere... ::)
WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.
I dont think he was suggesting what happened there is the same as auswich by any means Sammy, and I think you know this too, more so they will be of interest to tourists due to historic events which occurred there.
You obviously dont share the view, but many people regard the hunger strikers as heroes and the hunger strikes as a huge part of our history (many dont) and would be interested in visiting the site.
Thats my understanding of these comments.
Re Unionist guilt, do you really not know what is meant by that? Seems very straightforward.
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 10:06:50 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:50:37 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:45:39 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:42:18 AMwhile unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.
You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?
do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?
I had avoided that in my reply to sk.
but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere... ::)
WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.
I dont think he was suggesting what happened there is the same as auswich by any means Sammy, and I think you know this too, more so they will be of interest to tourists due to historic events which occurred there.
You obviously dont share the view, but many people regard the hunger strikers as heroes and the hunger strikes as a huge part of our history (many dont) and would be interested in visiting the site.
Thats my understanding of these comments.
Re Unionist guilt, do you really not know what is meant by that? Seems very straightforward.
wasnt even thinking of the hunger strikers and that part of it HH to be honest
I was more thinking of the historical value for future tourism as the name of this place was synonymous with the fighting etc over the 35 years
my comparison was along those lines, a well known name more than anything else.
But now its mentioned, there were a vast majority (nearly all in the early days) of catholics imprisoned there 'charged' with 'membership' that weren't - and the authorities knew this. But it was part of the 'terror' campaign against Irish/catholic/nationalist/republicans etc and suited the purpose.
but the guilt is beating through with some of these folks who would rather the place was levelled and such 'war crimes' forgotten.
No point in re-hashing old debates though, I think i have demonstrated and outlined their lies enough times previously. :)
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:04:12 AMWrong Sammy.
The truth is that McCarthy of the Alliance Party did not walk out yesterday.
In fact he's on the record as castigating those who did:
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7141497.stm
QuoteHowever, his colleague on the committee, Kieran McCarthy of the Alliance Party, said the situation was "a complete fiasco".
"In my opinion it's an own-goal by our committee. They had the opportunity not only to see what's being proposed, but to ask questions and they threw it out," he said.
Sorry I read a a different article that listed McCarthy as walking out. Happy to withdraw the comment if he didn't (although to be honest you could read his post as castigating the walkouts or as castigating Poots for not delivering, so you'd need to see the context).
As far as McNarry he has stated several times that he supports the Maze, in principal but wants to see the business case. He walked out yesterday as yet again, no business case or costings were put forward
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 10:06:50 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:50:37 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:45:39 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2007, 09:42:18 AMwhile unpalatable now, I think in a number of years time, Long Kesh will be Irelands 'Auchwitcz' (sp) and a stop on the tourist trail of the country.
You really can be a sickfuck sometimes. How in the name of f**k can you compare a concentration camp, where people were slaughtered in there tens of thousands, to a prison for gangsters, drug dealers and murderers?
do you really want to get bogged down into a discussion over unionist/loyalist/crown security forces guilt yet again ?
I had avoided that in my reply to sk.
but folks like you cant let it pass...its not me that has the problem....you obv have a guilt problem there somewhere... ::)
WTF are you on about? You tried to compare a concentration camp to Long Kesh, what has that got to do with Unionist guilt (whatever the f**k that may be). If you honestly think that imprisoning murderers and drug dealers is the same as slaughtering 6 million innocent people then you need help.
I dont think he was suggesting what happened there is the same as auswich by any means Sammy, and I think you know this too, more so they will be of interest to tourists due to historic events which occurred there.
You obviously dont share the view, but many people regard the hunger strikers as heroes and the hunger strikes as a huge part of our history (many dont) and would be interested in visiting the site.
Thats my understanding of these comments.
Re Unionist guilt, do you really not know what is meant by that? Seems very straightforward.
Chaps,
you're both entitled to hold different personal opinions on the conflict, and on what should happen to the listed H block.
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
Good point snatter, back to the topic!
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:15:34 AMChaps,
you're both entitled to hold different personal opinions on the conflict, and on what should happen to the listed H block.
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
It would be great if that were true but unfortunatelty the ONLY reason that the Maze is being proposed for the stadium is because of the H Blocks. If the H Blocks didn't exist nobody in there right mind would be proposing building a stadium in a field in the middle of nowhere.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 10:18:14 AM
It would be great if that were true but unfortunatelty the ONLY reason that the Maze is being proposed for the stadium is because of the H Blocks. If the H Blocks didn't exist nobody in there right mind would be proposing building a stadium in a field in the middle of nowhere.
that sounds like a pro-belfast stadium dev persons 'reasoning' for the stadium being built out in lisburn area.
may I suggest the reason for it is nothing to do with whats already there but the fact that theres a lot of free space doing nothing (I cant believe you or anyone else would think there was any kind of link - thats f**king bizzare if not hilarious).
anyway, my pref for the record is a site somewhere that would be easily accessible and advantageous to all main sports - so I think geographically and transport-wise the dungannon area would be best suited. I dont particularly like the town, but its not that bad and lets face it, far better located for everything really as a compromise.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 10:18:14 AM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:15:34 AMChaps,
you're both entitled to hold different personal opinions on the conflict, and on what should happen to the listed H block.
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
It would be great if that were true but unfortunatelty the ONLY reason that the Maze is being proposed for the stadium is because of the H Blocks. If the H Blocks didn't exist nobody in there right mind would be proposing building a stadium in a field in the middle of nowhere.
Not true Sammy.
We've arrived a this point because, way back in 1999, it was recognised that stadium provision in NI was sub-standard.
The NI sports council made representations to Westminster that NI needed a new stadium, especially after seeing Wales get theirs.
Initially, the stadium was projected as being for only soccer and rugby, but it was made clear to the NI sports council that it was politically unacceptable to exclude the most attended sport in NI, namely gaelic football.
They were told that their chances of funding would be dependent on the project as being seen as genuinely inclusive.
The stated attraction of the Maze site are that
1. it is the only site so far identified as being acceptable to all three sports governing bodies.
2. its free (unlike the Belfast harbour estate)
3. its available immediatley
4. its conveniently located for the majority of fans who will actually go there.
5. no planning issues (unlike Ormeau)
Its important to note that no alternative sites have been identified in four years of trying by the anti-Maze lobby.
Having said that, the choice of location is of course politically symbolic in a "swords into plough shares" sort of way.
Our political masters and bankrollers would love to point to a project that's a symbolic legacy of how far we've travelled in realising that if we co-operate then we get things done for the greater good.
The only people attempting to link the stadium to the H block are the shinners and the anti-Maze brigade.
Re the former, you would expect this, you'd assume that they'd be more interested in a memorial to their hunger strikers than in any new stadium.
And for the latter, they will use any excuse in their deluded quest for a UK treasury funded soccer stadium of ther own - just big enough for them, but too small for the gaa (still the most atteneded sport in NI by a country mile).
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AMThe stated attraction of the Maze site are that
1. it is the only site so far identified as being acceptable to all three sports governing bodies.
Only becaiuse one sport (which won't even use the bloody thing) was allowed a politically motivated veto
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AM
2. its free (unlike the Belfast harbour estate)
Are you insane, how is 100's of millions (and rising daily) free?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AM
3. its available immediatley
So's my back garden but it still wouldn't make a very good spot for a stadium
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AM
4. its conveniently located for the majority of fans who will actually go there.
Complete lie. There is one single carriage road for access or egress, no public transport and no plans to provide any, no facilities (bars hotels etc)
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AM
5. no planning issues (unlike Ormeau)
Total red herring.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AM
Its important to note that no alternative sites have been identified in four years of trying by the anti-Maze lobby.
Another lie. There have been several alternatives
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AMThe only people attempting to link the stadium to the H block are the shinners and the anti-Maze brigade.
err what are you on about?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AM
Re the former, you would expect this, you'd assume that they'd be more interested in a memorial to their hunger strikers than in any new stadium.
Correct (strange that they were able to coax/co-erce the GAA into backing them)
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:34:55 AM
And for the latter, they will use any excuse in their deluded quest for a UK treasury funded soccer stadium of ther own - just big enough for them, but too small for the gaa (still the most atteneded sport in NI by a country mile).
Complete and utter bollix.
The inference that the GAA was co-erced by the Shinners is a disgraceful lie. Withdraw it.
The GAA was lobbied by government to come on board on a new stadium as it would not be viable without the. There may be nervousness about presenting the full economic case as this is what it will shoe in stark terms.
Clearly a lot of the unionist opposition is more to do with GAA use of the stadium, yet that is the only sport which will consistently draw the crowds necessary.
Having said that I think the choice of vebue is barmy. All European evidence shows that out-of-town stadia doe not create the economic dynamic needed to maximise the return from the project.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 10:50:54 AM
Correct (strange that they were able to coax/co-erce the GAA into backing them)
now thats complete and utter bollix as you put it
SF haqve no influence over the GAA
I'd say it would be more likely that the Brit gov had a word with the Irish gov who then asked the GAA to go along with this and they had a word with the Ulster council.
Its a political decision - and the GA have been asked to go along with it in this new spirit of co-operation and convergence etc etc
I would say the GAA will play games there , but if its located closer into Belfast, that wont happen as often - if at all.
I see the doyenne of OWC, Kate Hoey, took a humiliating hammering from little Bairbre de Brún on the telly last night. In one classic moment, Hoey expressing her opposition to the Long Kesh stadium and support for a Belfast option said the land at Maze should be used to alleviate the social housing problem in Belfast. Surely then the best thing to do would be to build the housing in Belfast instead of a new stadium suggested Bairbre. The wheels on her little Englander bandwagon then fell off completely when none other than George Hook had to correct her and point out that the Chinese might have something to say about her assertion that English is the worlds most spoken language. :D
Lads i have been thinking about this for a while
IF we play in the Maze can you imagine the row over flying the Irish flag and the playing of Amhrán na bhFiann in a state sponsored ground. The unionists will go mad.
Quote from: Donagh on December 14, 2007, 11:07:13 AM
I see the doyenne of OWC, Kate Hoey, took a humiliating hammering from little Bairbre de Brún on the telly last night. In one classic moment, Hoey expressing her opposition to the Long Kesh stadium and support for a Belfast option said the land at Maze should be used to alleviate the social housing problem in Belfast. Surely then the best thing to do would be to build the housing in Belfast instead of a new stadium suggested Bairbre. The wheels on her little Englander bandwagon then fell off completely when none other than George Hook had to correct her and point out that the Chinese might have something to say about her assertion that English is the worlds most spoken language. :D
LOL :D
nice lady Bairbre. Hook is oafish but also smart and funny.
hoey - another half with with an agenda ::)
Quote from: FermGael on December 14, 2007, 11:09:29 AM
Lads i have been thinking about this for a while
IF we play in the Maze can you imagine the row over flying the Irish flag and the playing of Amhrán na bhFiann in a state sponsored ground. The unionists will go mad.
nah, we'll have to have a new anthem and flag for the unified ireland team ;)
...for a wee while at least... ;)
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
The inference that the GAA was co-erced by the Shinners is a disgraceful lie. Withdraw it.
I'll withdraw it when somebody produces some evidence to contradict it. The GAA vetoed the only sensible sites for a stadium in favour of one which has no infrastructure and the wrong capacity from their point of view. Tell me why you think they did this?
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
The GAA was lobbied by government to come on board on a new stadium as it would not be viable without the.
Not strictly true but near enough.
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
There may be nervousness about presenting the full economic case as this is what it will shoe in stark terms.
There is nervousness about presenting the business case because there isn't one
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
Clearly a lot of the unionist opposition is more to do with GAA use of the stadium,
Interesting that you accuse me of lying and then spout a lie yourself. I do not knwo a single person who objects to a shared stadium
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
yet that is the only sport which will consistently draw the crowds necessary.
A myth. The only GAA matches which will require big capacity are actually far too bug for the 35K at the Maze, so it's irrelevant. The fact that the GAA have consistently refused to publish a list of matches that they will use the stadium for.
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
Having said that I think the choice of vebue is barmy. All European evidence shows that out-of-town stadia doe not create the economic dynamic needed to maximise the return from the project.
On that we agree
Quote from: Donagh on December 14, 2007, 11:07:13 AM
I see the doyenne of OWC, Kate Hoey, took a humiliating hammering from little Bairbre de Brún on the telly last night. In one classic moment, Hoey expressing her opposition to the Long Kesh stadium and support for a Belfast option said the land at Maze should be used to alleviate the social housing problem in Belfast. Surely then the best thing to do would be to build the housing in Belfast instead of a new stadium suggested Bairbre. The wheels on her little Englander bandwagon then fell off completely when none other than George Hook had to correct her and point out that the Chinese might have something to say about her assertion that English is the worlds most spoken language. :D
I presume you're reading a Connolly House press release and didn't actually watch the programme?
Oh I watched alright. The next best moment was the NI soccer supporter who wanted the new stadium built in East Belfast because the all of the soccer and Ulster Rugby supporters come from there. :D
"I'll withdraw it when somebody produces some evidence to contradict it"
Sammy surely you arent serious? You came up with an allegation that SF pressured the GAA here with no proof whatsoever and wont take it back until someone provides evidence to show it didnt happen??????
Crazy logic, you are the one suggesting something did happen, the onus is on you to back up these allegations.
How can you provide "evidence" that something didnt happen other than to point out there is no "evidence" that it did?
You should withdraw this statement immediately. This shite about SF influencing the GAA is bullshit and only provides ammunition to the OWC gullible enough to believe it to entrech their prejudices against the GAA.
TAKE IT BACK >:(
The behaviour of the unionists walking out on the architects yesterday was the height of bad manners and showed their utter ignorance...
But had to laugh at big ears whingeing at Stormont during the week how the the whole eligibility thing was totally contrary to the "cross-community" ethos of the statelet's team. The first time i've ever heard a DUP member say the words "cross-community" ... what a hypocrite. You didn't mention anything about the "cross-community" ethos of the statelet's support, Edwin ... I wonder why...
Quote from: Donagh on December 14, 2007, 11:17:27 AM
The next best moment was the NI soccer supporter who wanted the new stadium built in East Belfast because the all of the soccer and Ulster Rugby supporters come from there. :D
Seen this myself - holy fcuk, what are they feeding them in the east?
This sort of bullsh1t really helps the anti-Maze brigade :D
Quote from: full back on December 14, 2007, 11:29:43 AM
Quote from: Donagh on December 14, 2007, 11:17:27 AM
The next best moment was the NI soccer supporter who wanted the new stadium built in East Belfast because the all of the soccer and Ulster Rugby supporters come from there. :D
Seen this myself - holy fcuk, what are they feeding them in the east?
This sort of bullsh1t really helps the anti-Maze brigade :D
I'd say that one dickhead in the audience is a lot less of a problem than the lies about 'sectarian soccer' from Barbara Brown. I think the mask slipped several notches.
Quote from: red hander on December 14, 2007, 11:22:20 AM
The behaviour of the unionists walking out on the architects yesterday was the height of bad manners and showed their utter ignorance...
Sorry the meeting was called to present the business case to the committee. When they arrived they found out there was no business case just some photos from an agency (paid for by us), so they left. I would have thought it was Poots who was displaying bad manners to say the least.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 11:32:21 AM
I'd say that one dickhead in the audience is a lot less of a problem than the lies about 'sectarian soccer' from Barbara Brown. I think the mask slipped several notches.
The lack of quote marks around that phrase there says a lot Sammy.
Quote from: Donagh on December 14, 2007, 11:36:21 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 11:32:21 AM
I'd say that one dickhead in the audience is a lot less of a problem than the lies about 'sectarian soccer' from Barbara Brown. I think the mask slipped several notches.
The lack of quote marks around that phrase there says a lot Sammy.
Sorry I didn't have my shorthand pad, to get the exact quotes. I'll post them once the on-l;ine addition is up.
Care to reply to my last post Sammy? you cant possibly justify not taking that comment back.
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 11:38:33 AM
Care to reply to my last post Sammy? you cant possibly justify not taking that comment back.
I deliberately used the phrase coaxed/co-erced. I don't know which it was but it was certainly one or the other. There is no business or sporting reason for the GAA to support the Maze, so it must be for political reasons.
Right lads, I'm away to the pub and won't be back on until tomorrow or Sunday. Just posting in case I get accused of ignoring anybody.
So you have nothing to back it up, just a hunch ::)
I'm sorry Sammy but you cant honestly be serious.
At least edit to say its your opinion that they were coaxed / co-erced.
Otherwise its a statement of fact based on no evidence, ie. a lie.
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 11:42:44 AM
Right lads, I'm away to the pub and won't be back on until tomorrow or Sunday. Just posting in case I get accused of ignoring anybody.
Have one for Kate, Sammy, she sounds like she needs one. :D
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 11:13:57 AM
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 11:01:06 AM
The inference that the GAA was co-erced by the Shinners is a disgraceful lie. Withdraw it.
I'll withdraw it when somebody produces some evidence to contradict it. The GAA vetoed the only sensible sites for a stadium in favour of one which has no infrastructure and the wrong capacity from their point of view. Tell me why you think they did this?
[/quote]
Fcuk me SammyG. That is the most ridiculous thing you have ever written (which is an achievement by the way). What would you think of a poster who stated that the UDA / DUP or some such coerced the IFA or the IRFU into accepting a venue and then, when asked to withdraw such a baseless assertion, asks for evidence that it isn't true.
I will however humour you. I think the GAA vetoed the two main alternatives in Belfast, the old shipyard (the laughably named Titanic Quarter) and the north foreshore because both are based in what would be classified as hardline loyalist areas and to get 40,000+ Fenians in and out safely would be much more difficult at either of these two sites (than at the Maze). I have stated in the past that the same could arguably apply to the Maze, but you argued something about loyalist sheep. The Maze may not be perfect, but from the GAA's point of view it is the best available site.
I don't think that there was any coercion from the Shinners - no Gaelic club, that I am aware off has ever pulled out a match because the Shinners put pressure on them. Can other sporting bodies say the same?
Enjoy the pints.
I'll ignore the crass behaviour of Sammy G in refusing to withdraw his utterly disgraceful posyts and present you with a new deal ......
How many millins is this stadium?
Divide it by 3 for each of the 3 main field games, GAA, rugby and soccer.
Give one third of the money directly to each association on the following conditions:
1 They match it with their own funding and each build their own stadium for their own needs to minimum modern standards of player, spectator and press accommodation, helath & safety, covered stands, etc.
2 No such money to be released until each project is fully costed, approved, evidence of own money in place and suitable guarantees that grants will not be applied for other purposes (recent history with Irish Leahgue clubs suggests the soccer boys might have some problems here)
The GAA is the only body which could realistically meet this target.
And that is why the business case for a NornIrn stadium falls without their input.
'I'll ignore the crass behaviour of Sammy G in refusing to withdraw his utterly disgraceful posyts and present you with a new deal ......
How many millins is this stadium?
Divide it by 3 for each of the 3 main field games, GAA, rugby and soccer.
Give one third of the money directly to each association on the following conditions:
1 They match it with their own funding and each build their own stadium for their own needs to minimum modern standards of player, spectator and press accommodation, helath & safety, covered stands, etc.
2 No such money to be released until each project is fully costed, approved, evidence of own money in place and suitable guarantees that grants will not be applied for other purposes (recent history with Irish Leahgue clubs suggests the soccer boys might have some problems here)
The GAA is the only body which could realistically meet this target.
And that is why the business case for a NornIrn stadium falls without their input.'
Leo, you're making too much sense to be on this board
Sammy must have the laptop in the pub as he is reading this thread!
Maybe we can have that statement withdrawn before monday after all ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
Sammy must have the laptop in the pub as he is reading this thread!
Maybe we can have that statement withdrawn before monday after all ;)
Sammyg lying again..........................now theres a shocker! :-[
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 11:33:59 AM
Quote from: red hander on December 14, 2007, 11:22:20 AM
The behaviour of the unionists walking out on the architects yesterday was the height of bad manners and showed their utter ignorance...
Sorry the meeting was called to present the business case to the committee. When they arrived they found out there was no business case just some photos from an agency (paid for by us), so they left. I would have thought it was Poots who was displaying bad manners to say the least.
Sammy, I didn't realise that the people in the Bath/Bristol Area had agreed to pay for a stadium for Northern Ireland
Incase anyone missed Lets Talk last night
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/northernireland/tv/media/letstalk/letstalk?size=16x9&bgc=C0C0C0&nbram=1&bbram=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/northernireland/tv/media/letstalk/letstalk?size=16x9&bgc=C0C0C0&nbram=1&bbram=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1)
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
Sammy must have the laptop in the pub as he is reading this thread!
On the contrary, maybe in his rush to get out to the pub he left his computer on at home with the GAA Board page open.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:15:34 AM
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
Not according to SF. Paul Butler stated that one can't happen without the other. Now that's a strange criteria for any sporting venue. Most modern stadia have ample parking, disabled facilities, adequate infrastructure and a convenient location. Apparently our new national stadium needs a terror shrine as well. ::)
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 14, 2007, 08:10:36 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:15:34 AM
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
Not according to SF. Paul Butler stated that one can't happen without the other. Now that's a strange criteria for any sporting venue. Most modern stadia have ample parking, disabled facilities, adequate infrastructure and a convenient location. Apparently our new national stadium needs a terror shrine as well. ::)
Well that's his opinion, not the GAA's.
You (and especially Sammy ) need to be clear that the GAA and SF are not one and the same thing.
Particularly on a day like today when we've seen bombs and bomb threats at GAA grounds across the north.
We've seen Sammy's mask slip already. Yep, beneath Sammy's pseudo liberal facade, we now finally know that he thinks that SF control the GAA. The same mindset as Sammy "keep your clothes on" Wilson, when he infamously claimed GAA= IRA at play.
The problem with these ludicrous slurs is that the rancid bigots who bomb GAA pitches believe them.
I'd love to see the shinners trying to tell GAA fans across the north that we couldn't get a stadium because they couldn't get their interpretive centre. Electorally, they wouldn't stand a chance.
The GAA will sign up for this solely because its good for the GAA, ie what's in our best interests, not SF's.
See my reply to NI fan earlier in this thread - this makes huge financial sense for us and meets a real need on our part.
If we can get the 40k stadium envisaged in the GAA strategic review for 500k pa, rather than 3million pa, then we're quids in.
Oh, and btw, it may be your national stadium, buts its not mine.
I have no problem seeing the GAA and SF as separate, but you are kidding yourself if you see this as an electoral issue for them one way or another. When this whole project goes tits up they will find someone else to blame (and why not, they are good at that). It may make financial sense for the GAA, but it doesn't seem to for anyone else, especially the tax-payers, and crucially private investors who aren't exactly beating DCAL's door down to pump money into this ill-concieved gambit. Private investment, according to Poots is crucial for the Maze project to get off the ground and so far there is no sign of it. I'm not talking about name rights for the stadium or stands, but massive capital intensive projects such as road improvements. Private enterprise paid for the upgrade of the motorway and roads at Sprucefield which I imagine as I type is heaving at the minute with people spending their money. All there are at the minute are some pretty pictures and no serious talk about money from anyone. It all reminds me of that documentary about Craigavon the other week. Once bitten......
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 14, 2007, 09:52:40 PM
I have no problem seeing the GAA and SF as separate, but you are kidding yourself if you see this as an electoral issue for them one way or another. When this whole project goes tits up they will find someone else to blame......
This project will probably fail because, quite simply most NI soccer fans (and probably most unionists) have never wanted their beloved NI to share with the GAA.
There have been reams and reams of various excuses, but in my opinion, that's all they've ever been, excuses.
Do you see the irony in NI fans demanding taxpayers bankroll yet more stands at Windsor, or hey, even a whole new stadium, yet when it comes to building something for all sports, its suddenly a waste of taxpayers money.
It's complete hypocrisy, especially when you consider that this is one-off UK treasury funding, not money already allocated to NI plc.
I'm sure a lot of GAA fans are sick of your pathetic excuses by now.
If it doesn't go ahead, we'll cope without this one-off injection. We'll potter along with Clones / Croke.
Quite simply, you guys won't.
Your meagre attendances, your frivolous expenditure and your inept management guarantee that you can't afford to build a stadium of your own.
And by christ, we'll not sit back this time and accept you spongers being given a North Stand for free while our attenedances are four times bigger and we get shag all.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:30:06 PM
[And by christ, we'll not sit back this time and accept you spongers being given a North Stand for free while our attenedances are four times bigger and we get shag all.
First of all less of the lip. Try and raise the debate out of the gutter.
Secondly, if you took the time to do a bit of research into sporting grants in Northern Ireland you wouldn't be coming out with bullshit like that. Try this for the tip of the iceberg - http://archive.nics.gov.uk/cal/040310b-cal.htm FFS how long has the North stand been there now? You'll be bitching about the potato famine next.
ive always enjoyed my trips to Casement,sure it doesnt have the promise of getting lashed like we do everytime in Clones,but lovely ground with a great atmosphere.
This Maze place?any nearby Town/Village that we would be welcomed in or are they building a load of bars and hotels?
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 14, 2007, 10:52:53 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:30:06 PM
[And by christ, we'll not sit back this time and accept you spongers being given a North Stand for free while our attenedances are four times bigger and we get shag all.
First of all less of the lip. Try and raise the debate out of the gutter.
Cop out - there's no trace of the gutter in what I said there.
There's only been one guest star in the gutter today, and that's our Sammy G, caught out yet again telling lies, and then branding the GAA as nothing more than a tool of SF.
And on the same day as kids get their gaa pitches bombed.
Nice.
Wonder what the G stands for in Sammy G, is it Goebbels by any chance?
He's certainly got the same propangda style.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 14, 2007, 10:52:53 PM
Secondly, if you took the time to do a bit of research into sporting grants in Northern Ireland you wouldn't be coming out with bullshit like that. Try this for the tip of the iceberg - http://archive.nics.gov.uk/cal/040310b-cal.htm FFS how long has the North stand been there now? You'll be bitching about the potato famine next.
Don't worry, I already did, several months ago when I proved that NI govt funding to gaelic games was lower than that given to soccer. I'll dig out the post again if you want me to.
And we haven't even touched on the massive imbalance in public playing field provision in NI.
Afaik, out of 662 council-owned pitches in the North, just 59 are set aside for Gaelic games.
The rest are used for rugby and soccer.
And just because your free North Stand was 20 years ago, doesn't detract from the unfairness of soccer getting massive resources for grounds development whilst gaelic games got nothing, despite our attendances dwarfing yours.
And hey, NI soccer is so inept , it couldn't even look after the stand properly anyway.
Here, does anybody know if the Gary McAllister quoted in the story below as a "community representative" (as they're known now) the same Gary McAllister, spokesman for the Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Supporters' Clubs, aka the anti-Maze ringleader?
Nice story highlighting hypocrisy and sectarian exclusionist thinking.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/oct12_worse_than_the_Catholic_devil_you_know__NEmerson.php
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing worse than the Catholic 'devil you know'
(Newton Emerson, Irish News)
The battle of Brookfield Mill has opened with an onslaught of bigotry. Developer Neil McCann recently purchased the sprawling north Belfast site and filed a planning application for 170 modern apartments plus a row of shops fronting the Crumlin Road.
Residents from the adjoining Protestant Woodvale area were immediately summoned to an 'emergency meeting' attended by Ulster Unionist assembly member Fred Cobain, DUP assembly members Diane Dodds and Nelson McCausland, UDA-linked councillor Frank McCoubrey and 'community representatives' Billy Patterson and Gary McAllister.
There was, as they used to say, "trouble at t'mill". Objections initially focused on sectarian attacks by Catholic youths from neighbouring Ardoyne who regularly use the semi-derelict building as cover.
This is a real problem but as redeveloping the site would be a real solution it didn't take long for the real objection to surface.
"All nationalist areas are trying to bring back professionals in a bid to develop and expand their communities. Basically this is part of a longer-term programme building up and expanding Ardoyne," Nelson McCausland said.
"For years Protestants have stood idly by and let nationalists develop their areas but if they put up a reasonable and logical fight and make things clear and concise there is no reason why this cannot be stopped," Billy Patterson said.
"We have to hit back at this very disturbing proposal and stand side by side and fight this side by side," Frank McCoubrey said.
These 'community leaders' have a curious attitude towards the plight of their constituents. By their own admission, the Brookfield Mill project will "bring back professionals"and "develop" the area.
The reason they give for finding this "disturbing" is that the site's new residents will be nationalists. In fact, in the present housing market, the residents could be of any persuasion although this is not something that the ghetto mentality finds easy to believe. It is also not something that the ghetto mentality finds much of a consolation either.
"Another big problem is a lot of these apartments will be bought and privately rented," Fred Cobain warned the meeting. "In most cases the people who buy these properties won't actually live in them and will lease them out to anyone."
This is indeed a big problem. For Northern Ireland's corner-boy control freaks, the only thing worse than knowing that the other lot live next door is not knowing who lives behind every door. Apartments don't even have front doors or street-level windows or backyard entries.
Their inhabitants can't easily be observed, approached, labelled, harassed, intimidated or evicted.
The ancient Romans called apartment buildings 'insulae' – islands – and they are just as insular today, protected by the cliff-walls of their ground-floor car parks.
In other cities this is seen as a disadvantage but in Belfast it is often a blessing. The outline plans for Brookfield Mill describe its row of shops as a "commercial buffer".
However, in practice the whole site will be a buffer – a habitable, profitable peace wall. The Shankill Mirror describes the row of shops as "another possible Ardoyne shop scenario". Sadly, Billy Patterson did not suggest that this could also be stopped with reason and logic. Perhaps Woodvale's 'community representatives' prefer a dead thoroughfare they can march down once a year to a living street they could use every day, just as they apparently prefer a wasteland full of lurking hooligans to a development that could be home to "anyone". It is almost as if they want their constituents to be afraid.
North Belfast's tribal demography is a zero-sum game that both sides can play and both sides play it often. The republican response to equally urgent regeneration along the Shore Road has been equally sectarian in its fears and motivations.
But even the most obviously bigoted campaigners against new housing for Protestants make some attempt to hide their shame behind self-serving claims of official discrimination. Some people by comparison, have no shame whatsoever.
Although their statements stink of prejudice and paranoia it is the stupidity that truly stands out.
Simple two-faced cunning is beyond them. The people of Woodvale must know that sectarian violence afflicts both communities either side of the Crumlin Road in fairly equal measure.
Yet one community is developing while the other decays, which strongly suggests that the real problem stems from within.
As the 'emergency meeting' broke up and the chummy representatives of unionism and loyalism headed for the door, was there a moment when the residents of Woodvale saw what was really milling in front of them?
October 13, 2006
Quote from: Main Street on December 14, 2007, 04:13:42 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
Sammy must have the laptop in the pub as he is reading this thread!
On the contrary, maybe in his rush to get out to the pub he left his computer on at home with the GAA Board page open.
Correct, computer left on doing an update but sure it's easier to throw abuse about.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PMThere's only been one guest star in the gutter today, and that's our Sammy G, caught out yet again telling lies, and then branding the GAA as nothing more than a tool of SF.
And on the same day as kids get their gaa pitches bombed.
Nice.
Do you ever stop[ lying? Where in the name of fcuk did I say that the GAA were a tool of SF.?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
Wonder what the G stands for in Sammy G, is it Goebbels by any chance?
He's certainly got the same propangda style.
By propaganda I presume you mean sticking to the facts instead pf spouting nonsense.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PMDon't worry, I already did, several months ago when I proved that NI govt funding to gaelic games was lower than that given to soccer. I'll dig out the post again if you want me to.
Lies you made the claim and were shown that it was complete bollix.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PMAnd just because your free North Stand was 20 years ago, doesn't detract from the unfairness of soccer getting massive resources for grounds development whilst gaelic games got nothing, despite our attendances dwarfing yours.[/quiote]
How can the GAA getiting huge cgrants be turned into 'getting nothing'. You must have a very strange view of what nothing is?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
And hey, NI soccer is so inept , it couldn't even look after the stand properly anyway.
WTF?
Quote from: Leo on December 14, 2007, 01:10:38 PM
I'll ignore the crass behaviour of Sammy G in refusing to withdraw his utterly disgraceful posyts and present you with a new deal ......
Not sure what I'm supposed to have done but I'm sure you'll enlighten me
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
How many millins is this stadium?
Divide it by 3 for each of the 3 main field games, GAA, rugby and soccer.
Give one third of the money directly to each association on the following conditions:
1 They match it with their own funding and each build their own stadium for their own needs to minimum modern standards of player, spectator and press accommodation, helath & safety, covered stands, etc.
2 No such money to be released until each project is fully costed, approved, evidence of own money in place and suitable guarantees that grants will not be applied for other purposes (recent history with Irish Leahgue clubs suggests the soccer boys might have some problems here)
The GAA is the only body which could realistically meet this target.
And that is why the business case for a NornIrn stadium falls without their input.
Unfortunately that is looking more and more like the only sensible sollution.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:30:06 PMThis project will probably fail because, quite simply most NI soccer fans (and probably most unionists) have never wanted their beloved NI to share with the GAA.
There have been reams and reams of various excuses, but in my opinion, that's all they've ever been, excuses.
Can you present even one shred of evidence for that nonsensical allegation? How are transport, infrastructure, facilities etc etc etc excuses?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
Do you see the irony in NI fans demanding taxpayers bankroll yet more stands at Windsor, or hey, even a whole new stadium, yet when it comes to building something for all sports, its suddenly a waste of taxpayers money.
WTF are you on about? Nobody is saying don't build a stadium, they are saying don't build one in a field in the middle of nowehere, but then you knoew that any way.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
It's complete hypocrisy, especially when you consider that this is one-off UK treasury funding, not money already allocated to NI plc.
See above?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
I'm sure a lot of GAA fans are sick of your pathetic excuses by now.
What excuses?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
If it doesn't go ahead, we'll cope without this one-off injection. We'll potter along with Clones / Croke.
Quite simply, you guys won't.
Why?
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
Your meagre attendances, your frivolous expenditure and your inept management guarantee that you can't afford to build a stadium of your own.
Interesting viewpoint and by interesting I of course mean complete bollix.
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
And by christ, we'll not sit back this time and accept you spongers being given a North Stand for free while our attenedances are four times bigger and we get shag all.
Again I have to ask how millions in granst amounts to 'shag all'.
Quote from: Deal_Me_In on December 14, 2007, 03:59:10 PMSammy, I didn't realise that the people in the Bath/Bristol Area had agreed to pay for a stadium for Northern Ireland
The stadium will be financed by the UK exchequer, all UK taxpayers will be asked to pay for it.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 14, 2007, 08:10:36 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:15:34 AM
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
Not according to SF. Paul Butler stated that one can't happen without the other. Now that's a strange criteria for any sporting venue. Most modern stadia have ample parking, disabled facilities, adequate infrastructure and a convenient location. Apparently our new national stadium needs a terror shrine as well. ::)
So did Barbara Brown.
Quote from: Chrisowc on December 15, 2007, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 14, 2007, 08:10:36 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:15:34 AM
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
Not according to SF. Paul Butler stated that one can't happen without the other. Now that's a strange criteria for any sporting venue. Most modern stadia have ample parking, disabled facilities, adequate infrastructure and a convenient location. Apparently our new national stadium needs a terror shrine as well. ::)
So did Barbara Brown.
Well that's her opinion, not the GAA's.
You (and especially Sammy ) need to be clear that the GAA and SF are not one and the same thing.
Particularly on a day like today when we've seen bombs and bomb threats at GAA grounds across the north.
I'd love to see the shinners trying to tell GAA fans across the north that we couldn't get a stadium because they couldn't get their interpretive centre. Electorally, they wouldn't stand a chance.
The GAA will sign up for this solely because its good for the GAA, ie what's in our best interests, not SF's.
See my reply to NI fan earlier in this thread - this makes huge financial sense for us and meets a real need on our part.
If we can get the 40k stadium envisaged in the GAA strategic review for 500k pa, rather than 3million pa, then we're quids in.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 12:20:26 PMWell that's her opinion, not the GAA's.
Strange that the GAA have never contradicted these statements. If some DUP politician was claiming to speak for the IFA, I'd have a fit.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 12:20:26 PM
You (and especially Sammy ) need to be clear that the GAA and SF are not one and the same thing.
More bollix, I have never said anything of the sort.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 12:20:26 PM
Particularly on a day like today when we've seen bombs and bomb threats at GAA grounds across the north.
Bomb threats which I and everybody else I know have condemned
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 12:20:26 PM
I'd love to see the shinners trying to tell GAA fans across the north that we couldn't get a stadium because they couldn't get their interpretive centre.
They've already done it, several times.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 12:20:26 PM
Electorally, they wouldn't stand a chance.
Err they won the Nationalist vote
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 12:20:26 PM
The GAA will sign up for this solely because its good for the GAA, ie what's in our best interests, not SF's
See my reply to NI fan earlier in this thread - this makes huge financial sense for us and meets a real need on our part.
If we can get the 40k stadium envisaged in the GAA strategic review for 500k pa, rather than 3million pa, then we're quids in.
And if you can't use it because there's no infrastructure then you'll just move to Clones and fcuk everybody else.
snatter - the 3 million pa - is that what it would cost for the GAA to build a similar stadium?
Im sorry if i missed an earliuer post as I was wondering how much it would cost to finance a stadium themselves?
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 01:16:28 PM
snatter - the 3 million pa - is that what it would cost for the GAA to build a similar stadium?
Im sorry if i missed an earliuer post as I was wondering how much it would cost to finance a stadium themselves?
Answer to you post below (copied from page 3 of this thread).
Assumes it will take £50 M GBP to build a 40k (2/3 covered and seated) stadium for gaelic games.
Personally, I think that's a very conservative estimate.
The £3M GBP for 50 years represents interest plus repayment of capital amount.
In case you don't know already, building such a 40k stadium in Ulster is recommended in the GAA's strategic review.
The economic case for such a stadium has been independently costed and verified by the Economics Dept, UCC.
Quote from: snatter on December 13, 2007, 11:03:49 PM
Quote from: nifan on December 13, 2007, 05:30:29 PM
One serious question snatter- how long would it take the GAA to pay off a stadium on 500K a year, that they would then own, and be able to make revenue off themselves with games and related entertainment (concerts etc)
I'm no accountant or banker, but finger in the air calculation:
Borrowing 50 million GBP at 6% (libor + 1%) over 50 years would need annual repayments of about 3 million per year.
Total interest paid over 50 years would be about 108 Million.
Assuming inflation rate of 4.5%, interest in real terms over period would be over 50 million, ie twice the cost of building it.
So simple answer on how long it would take GAA to repay loan for our own 50 million stadium, at repayment rate of 500k pa?
We would never repay it because we wouldn't get anybody to lend for such a long repayment period, I guess somewhere itro 400 years.
Thats why 500k pa rent is such a no brainer - its a bargain for what we're getting.
Assuming of course that the unionists can stomach having a gaelic player about the place.
cheers snatter - i had missed it, and have been up to my eyes with work (im working now) so havent been trailing through.
I was aware of the desire for such a stadium by the GAA - when i first mentioned it many months ago some gaa people claimed it was rubbish and demanded i prove it!
Im not sure of your sums, im no accountant either.
However, the GAA seems to prefer owning its own grounds, and surely a modern stadium with other incorporated facilities is something they could do for themselves without the hassle of having to deal with the inept IFA and the cmisinformation spewing sib. They would certainly make money from alternative revenue streams - look at croke park!
Ive no problem with a joint venture, but i am not a fan of the maze proposal due to the needs of my sport, which is obviously my priority, but i dont know why the gaa would be keen to get into be with the eejits steering this ship.
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 02:11:11 PM
However, the GAA seems to prefer owning its own grounds, and surely a modern stadium with other incorporated facilities is something they could do for themselves without the hassle of having to deal with the inept IFA and the cmisinformation spewing sib. They would certainly make money from alternative revenue streams - look at croke park!
This makes huge strategic and economic sense for us.
There's a pretty simple case for going in on the Maze:
We'd never make more money paying back a loan £3M pa when we could rent a better facility for 500k pa instead.
We could take the £2.5M pa we'd save and invest it elsewhere.
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 02:11:11 PM
Ive no problem with a joint venture, but i am not a fan of the maze proposal due to the needs of my sport, which is obviously my priority, but i dont know why the gaa would be keen to get into be with the eejits steering this ship.
I'm curious - in what way can the needs of your sport not be met by a shared stadium at the Maze?
If what you're saying is true, then surely the IFA would never have signed up for it.
As far as I can see, the pretty imminent need of Ni soccer is to provide a safe UEFA compliant stadium.
Failing that, they will seriously have to go consider going to Scotland / England.
You just don't have the money to go it alone.
You guys will end up paying roughly 250k pa to use the Maze - again that's a bargain for what you're getting.
And when you fill it to its capacity, and consequently make more money, you have the GAA to thank in bankrolling the stadium's annual running costs.
The 3 million is negating any government support whatsoever, which is what some people - gaa also - are arguing for, a division of the portion of the money.
20 million from the government would make a big chunk of difference.
Revenue from other avenues could help.
Im not saying its a definite goer, but you seem to dismiss it out of hand. And at the end of the day the GAA could own its own facility - surely preferable to the organisation.
QuoteIf what you're saying is true, then surely the IFA would never have signed up for it.
Snatter , your surely aware that the IFA are idiots
Quote from: Chrisowc on December 15, 2007, 11:03:50 AM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on December 14, 2007, 08:10:36 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:15:34 AM
But what have your opinions on that issue got to do with the stadium?
Surely we can split the two issues.
I certainly don't see any interdependence between stadium and what happens to the listed H block.
There's nothing to stop the stadium going ahead while NI plc spends the next 20 years arguing about what happens to the H block.
Not according to SF. Paul Butler stated that one can't happen without the other. Now that's a strange criteria for any sporting venue. Most modern stadia have ample parking, disabled facilities, adequate infrastructure and a convenient location. Apparently our new national stadium needs a terror shrine as well. ::)
So did Barbara Brown.
whose that?
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 02:55:25 PM
The 3 million is negating any government support whatsoever, which is what some people - gaa also - are arguing for, a division of the portion of the money.
20 million from the government would make a big chunk of difference.
Revenue from other avenues could help.
Im not saying its a definite goer, but you seem to dismiss it out of hand. And at the end of the day the GAA could own its own facility - surely preferable to the organisation.
QuoteIf what you're saying is true, then surely the IFA would never have signed up for it.
Snatter , your surely aware that the IFA are idiots
nifan, i take your point about wanting your own stadium for soccer and i'm sure many gaa fans want the same but would you agree that if the shared stadium project comes about it might actually lead to the breaking down of barriers? after all people will have to deal with each other, and people from unionist/nationalist areas will be associating with the same place (if at different times!). surely that can only be good..
At least up North they want to build a Public Stadium for all Sports unlike in Tallaght.
Quote from: SammyG on December 15, 2007, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: Main Street on December 14, 2007, 04:13:42 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
Sammy must have the laptop in the pub as he is reading this thread!
On the contrary, maybe in his rush to get out to the pub he left his computer on at home with the GAA Board page open.
Correct, computer left on doing an update but sure it's easier to throw abuse about.
Abuse? Sammy if we wanted to abuse you we could do a lot better than that ::)
You made a post saying SF "coaxed / co-erced the GAA" on this issue.
When asked for proof you asked us to prove its not true, which is a ridiculous argument by any standards.
This is why you are recieving all these comments, Sammy, you have ducked and dived around admitting you have nothing to back this up, except maybe a hunch, and by refusing to admit this and take the statement back your credibility is taking a real bashing.
I'm not argueing with you over any other point, but you need to either take that back or back the claim up.
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 15, 2007, 04:25:35 PM
Quote from: SammyG on December 15, 2007, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: Main Street on December 14, 2007, 04:13:42 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
Sammy must have the laptop in the pub as he is reading this thread!
On the contrary, maybe in his rush to get out to the pub he left his computer on at home with the GAA Board page open.
Correct, computer left on doing an update but sure it's easier to throw abuse about.
Abuse? Sammy if we wanted to abuse you we could do a lot better than that ::)
You made a post saying SF "coaxed / co-erced the GAA" on this issue.
When asked for proof you asked us to prove its not true, which is a ridiculous argument by any standards.
This is why you are recieving all these comments, Sammy, you have ducked and dived around admitting you have nothing to back this up, except maybe a hunch, and by refusing to admit this and take the statement back your credibility is taking a real bashing.
I'm not argueing with you over any other point, but you need to either take that back or back the claim up.
Similarly not one pro-Mazer walked out of the meeting, but that didn't stop Sammy from baldly stating lies as fact.
The problem is that we've been here so many times with Sammy, that imho, he's lost all credibility.
We'd almost need a full-time editorial team to research and expose his lies.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 15, 2007, 03:47:11 PM
At least up North they want to build a Public Stadium for all Sports unlike in Tallaght.
All the more ironic given that the same architects are designing both Lansdowne and the Maze.
Totally dispels the myth that they couldn't accomodate gaelic games in the fraudulent excuse for a national stadium.
Quote from: magickingdom on December 15, 2007, 03:22:43 PM
nifan, i take your point about wanting your own stadium for soccer and i'm sure many gaa fans want the same but would you agree that if the shared stadium project comes about it might actually lead to the breaking down of barriers? after all people will have to deal with each other, and people from unionist/nationalist areas will be associating with the same place (if at different times!). surely that can only be good..
magickingdom, i agree it would help in a small way - as ive said before if the stadium was the best solution for us all id be 100% behind it - even though i feel some of the talk of sharing it breaking down barriers is a little over the top. Many NI fans wont give a shite about GAA still, and many GAA wont give a shite about NI. Personally the GAA is seldom on my radar, but ive enjoyed the games when ive went, and when ive watched them on telly. I dont think ill ever be a regular by any stretch.
I was very happy with the thought of a shared stadium when it was first mooted, but differing requirements make it harder to achieve in a way acceptable to all.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 05:23:15 PM
Similarly not one pro-Mazer walked out of the meeting, but that didn't stop Sammy from baldly stating lies as fact.
The problem is that we've been here so many times with Sammy, that imho, he's lost all credibility.
We'd almost need a full-time editorial team to research and expose his lies.
Yet more lies and bollix. I posted the list of people along with their Maze affiliations (if known) and the list included pro, anti and unknown which was exactly what I'd said.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 05:28:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 15, 2007, 03:47:11 PM
At least up North they want to build a Public Stadium for all Sports unlike in Tallaght.
All the more ironic given that the same architects are designing both Lansdowne and the Maze.
Totally dispels the myth that they couldn't accomodate gaelic games in the fraudulent excuse for a national stadium.
Or it would 'totally dispel the myth', if we could actually see some plans. At the moment we've been told that we'll have (in no particular order) variable capacity, moveable seats, terracing for GAA (although the latest story form Poots is that GAA no longer want terracing and are happy with 35K), clear sight lines and no loss of atmosphere. All sounds wonderful but we have not seen one single concrete proposal on how they're going to do any of these things.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 02:22:09 PMThis makes huge strategic and economic sense for us.
There's a pretty simple case for going in on the Maze:
Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it a fact. There is no business case for the Maze, so you have no idea whether it makes sense or not.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 02:22:09 PMAnd when you fill it to its capacity, and consequently make more money, you have the GAA to thank in bankrolling the stadium's annual running costs.
I've asked before and you've never answered but I'll try again. Can you please explain how you think a capacity crowd would be accomodated at the Maze? I'd like a breakdown of the mix between cars and public transport, number of parking spaces and time to enter and leave and what facilities would be on offer when they got there?
Quote from: SammyG on December 15, 2007, 05:41:02 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 05:23:15 PM
Similarly not one pro-Mazer walked out of the meeting, but that didn't stop Sammy from baldly stating lies as fact.
The problem is that we've been here so many times with Sammy, that imho, he's lost all credibility.
We'd almost need a full-time editorial team to research and expose his lies.
Yet more lies and bollix. I posted the list of people along with their Maze affiliations (if known) and the list included pro, anti and unknown which was exactly what I'd said.
Lol - Sammy's list of alleged pro-maze walkees consisted of one Alliance guy who didn't walk, and another who, from his published comments is neutral at best.
After providing evidence that McNarry is neutral at best, I invited Sammy to provide evidence to back his claim that McNarry is actually pro-Maze.
To date, Sammy has declined to do so.
My guess is that no evidence exists, and Sammy has just made up another lie, presented as fact.
Sammy, here's the thread again just in case you had too many babychams yesterday afternoon and can't remember it:
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 10:04:12 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:35:05 AM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 09:00:35 AM
Quote from: snatter on December 14, 2007, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: SammyG on December 14, 2007, 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
There are people who have publically backed the Maze, people who have publically backed Belfast and people who have made no comment either way (or not that I've seen). The one thing they all had in common was that they want to see a proper business case (as do we all) not a glossy presentation that has already cost over a million quid.
OK, you're obviously having difficulties, so I'll ask the question again:
So, of the walkees, who are the pro, anti and undecided?
What's the breakdown, or are you making this up?
My expectation would have been that not one pro-Maze committee member walked out yesterday.
You've made the statement to the contrary, so back it up, or withdraw it.
The committe consists of
Alliance Mr Kieran McCarthy (Pro-Maze)
Democratic Unionist Party The Lord Browne (don't know)
Mr Nelson McCausland (pro-Belfast)
Mr Jim Shannon (pro-Belfast)
Sinn Fein Mr Francie Brolly (Pro-Maze)
Mr Barry McElduff (Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Paul Maskey (pro-Maze)
Social Democratic and Labour Party Mr Dominic Bradley (don't know)
Mr Pat Ramsey (don't know)
Ulster Unionist Party Mr David McNarry (Deputy Chairperson) (pro-Maze)
Mr Ken Robinson (don't know)
The walkouts were McCarthy, Browne, MaCausland, Shannon, McNarry and Robinson (so as I said a split of pro anti and unknow/undecided)
Wrong Sammy.
The truth is that McCarthy of the Alliance Party did not walk out yesterday.
In fact he's on the record as castigating those who did:
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7141497.stm
QuoteHowever, his colleague on the committee, Kieran McCarthy of the Alliance Party, said the situation was "a complete fiasco".
"In my opinion it's an own-goal by our committee. They had the opportunity not only to see what's being proposed, but to ask questions and they threw it out," he said.
As for McNarry, his comments on teh Maze would lead me to suggest that he's neutral / slightly closer to the anti-Maze camp, and most certainly not a pro-Mazer.
Look at his quotes on the matter:
http://www.95fm.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=86513&pt=n
QuoteUUP committee vice-chair David McNarry said: "The business plan will incorporate the other options, the minister said these drawings could be taken from the Maze and put in the North Foreshore (a rival application near Belfast).
"We understand that this scheme has changed, they have new seating arrangements. We understand that that has added millions to the cost of a stadium built like this.
"We are being told daily this country can`t afford millions for anything... we are doing our duty."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6912363.stm:
QuoteUlster Unionist committee vice chairman David McNarry asked the minister what impact unionist indignation would have on his decision on whether to take forward the Maze stadium plan.
http://uuptoday.org/newsroom/2007/06/22/kennedy-and-mcnarry-call-on-paisley-to-clear-the-air-over-maze-project/
QuoteA stadium does not necessarily have to be built on the Maze site. It could be placed elsewhere or not at all whereas the shrine is a project locked into the business plan adopted by Dr Paisley, who only last week signed a joint letter with Martin McGuinness shutting down the Maze monitoring panel and placing full responsibility for the development of the site with his own offices.
-----------------------------------------
Of course Sammy, if you have any evidence to the contrary, then please submit.
Otherwise, as is the norm when you talk out of your arse without thinking, I'll be requesting that you withdraw your false assertion that
QuoteQuote from: SammyG on Today at 07:24:47 AM
The walkout included pro, anti and undecideds.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 02:22:09 PM
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 02:11:11 PM
Ive no problem with a joint venture, but i am not a fan of the maze proposal due to the needs of my sport, which is obviously my priority, but i dont know why the gaa would be keen to get into be with the eejits steering this ship.
I'm curious - in what way can the needs of your sport not be met by a shared stadium at the Maze?
NI Fan - afai can see, you still haven't answered my question.
I'm genuinely interested to know how the Maze doesn't the NI soccer team's needs.
Oh, and I forgot to add in reply to your question about why the GAA would want to do business with a bunch of muppets - it's not really - it's contract will be with the Maze holding company.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 05:53:52 PMLol - Sammy's list of alleged pro-maze walkees consisted of one Alliance guy who didn't walk, and another who, from his published comments is neutral at best.
After providing evidence that McNarry is neutral at best, I invited Sammy to provide evidence to back his claim that McNarry is actually pro-Maze.
To date, Sammy has declined to do so.
My guess is that no evidence exists, and Sammy has just made up another lie, presented as fact.
If you're going to spout nonsense it's probably best not to quote the thread that actually shows you're spouting nonsense.
p.s. Still waiting for an answer.
Quote from: SammyG on December 15, 2007, 06:17:30 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 05:53:52 PMLol - Sammy's list of alleged pro-maze walkees consisted of one Alliance guy who didn't walk, and another who, from his published comments is neutral at best.
After providing evidence that McNarry is neutral at best, I invited Sammy to provide evidence to back his claim that McNarry is actually pro-Maze.
To date, Sammy has declined to do so.
My guess is that no evidence exists, and Sammy has just made up another lie, presented as fact.
If you're going to spout nonsense it's probably best not to quote the thread that actually shows you're spouting nonsense.
p.s. Still waiting for an answer.
OK, again you've made the accusation that my thread was nonsenical - prove it.
Pick out one noun, one verb, one adjective,one link to any of McNarry's statement's that aren't true.
I bet you can't because unlike you, I meticulously check my facts before posting.
I don't make sweeping statements that are at best unfounded, or at worst blatant lies.
By contrast, its way so much easier to spot the lies in your discredited and disjointed garbage.
In your Kafkesque mind, when challenged to prove anything, you present no facts, no evidence, just glib statements that everybody else is talking bollix and you're right.
It must be a great parallel world to live in Sammy.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 07:48:54 PMOK, again you've made the accusation that my thread was nonsenical - prove it.
Pick out one noun, one verb, one adjective,one link to any of McNarry's statement's that aren't true.
I bet you can't because unlike you, I meticulously check my facts before posting.
[/uote]
You've quoted McNarry's statements about the presentation and lack of business case and you are some how taking these to mean that he is anti-Maze even though he has stated that he is pro-Maze. And you accuse me of living in a parallel universe?????
p.s. You still haven't answered my questions. I've been asking them for about 18 months surely you must have had time by now.
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 06:12:33 PM
NI Fan - afai can see, you still haven't answered my question.
I'm genuinely interested to know how the Maze doesn't the NI soccer team's needs.
Snatter, we have gone over objections to the maze on numerous occasions.
Im concerned about the size of the venue, the design of the venue, the location of the venue.
I am not only purely concerned for football - i think the many questions that still exist on transport and infrastructure will affect everyone, though if gaa fans dont see them as problems thats their perogative. I personally find them massive issues
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 09:58:10 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 06:12:33 PM
NI Fan - afai can see, you still haven't answered my question.
I'm genuinely interested to know how the Maze doesn't the NI soccer team's needs.
Snatter, we have gone over objections to the maze on numerous occasions.
Im concerned about the size of the venue, the design of the venue, the location of the venue.
I am not only purely concerned for football - i think the many questions that still exist on transport and infrastructure will affect everyone, though if gaa fans dont see them as problems thats their perogative. I personally find them massive issues
Infrastructure is the oft quoted main reason why norn supporters dont wan the stadium built at the maze. The Armagh Norn Iron supporters think that this rationale is bullshite and I would say laziness is part of the reason, I spoke to three hard core norn fans last week and they cite the biggest barrier to the process for a norn iron standpoint is simply that their shaftie element do not want to travel to games and some of them are non too pleased at having the GAA as fellow tenants. :o
Quote from: stew on December 15, 2007, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 09:58:10 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 06:12:33 PM
NI Fan - afai can see, you still haven't answered my question.
I'm genuinely interested to know how the Maze doesn't the NI soccer team's needs.
Snatter, we have gone over objections to the maze on numerous occasions.
Im concerned about the size of the venue, the design of the venue, the location of the venue.
I am not only purely concerned for football - i think the many questions that still exist on transport and infrastructure will affect everyone, though if gaa fans dont see them as problems thats their perogative. I personally find them massive issues
Infrastructure is the oft quoted main reason why norn supporters dont wan the stadium built at the maze. The Armagh Norn Iron supporters think that this rationale is bullshite and I would say laziness is part of the reason, I spoke to three hard core norn fans last week and they cite the biggest barrier to the process for a norn iron standpoint is simply that their shaftie element do not want to travel to games and some of them are non too pleased at having the GAA as fellow tenants. :o
Aye you're right stew. We travel all over the world but we're worried about travelling to the Maze!!!!! Christ you don't half talk some shite.
Did anyone see the plans for long kesh park? what colour are the seats going to be? im sure norn iron supporters will probably kick up a stink about this too.
stew, im not a shaftie though i live there now.
I started going to NI games from derry when i was 6 years old so im not afraid of travelling to home games
Quote from: SammyG on December 16, 2007, 09:19:34 AM
Aye you're right stew. We travel all over the world but we're worried about travelling to the Maze!!!!! Christ you don't half talk some shite.
Well most of ye sem to have a serious problem with travelling there as one of the main reasons ye're against it is that it's not in Belfast.
It would never be that the GAA might be sharing ::) -
QuoteIt would never be that the GAA might be sharing
It may well be for some - ive heard gaa fans not overly keen on sharing with us.
Most NI fans want whats best for the NI football team, just as most gaa fans want whats best for the gaa.
Quote from: SammyG on December 16, 2007, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: stew on December 15, 2007, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: nifan on December 15, 2007, 09:58:10 PM
Quote from: snatter on December 15, 2007, 06:12:33 PM
NI Fan - afai can see, you still haven't answered my question.
I'm genuinely interested to know how the Maze doesn't the NI soccer team's needs.
Snatter, we have gone over objections to the maze on numerous occasions.
Im concerned about the size of the venue, the design of the venue, the location of the venue.
I am not only purely concerned for football - i think the many questions that still exist on transport and infrastructure will affect everyone, though if gaa fans dont see them as problems thats their perogative. I personally find them massive issues
Infrastructure is the oft quoted main reason why norn supporters dont wan the stadium built at the maze. The Armagh Norn Iron supporters think that this rationale is bullshite and I would say laziness is part of the reason, I spoke to three hard core norn fans last week and they cite the biggest barrier to the process for a norn iron standpoint is simply that their shaftie element do not want to travel to games and some of them are non too pleased at having the GAA as fellow tenants. :o
Aye you're right stew. We travel all over the world but we're worried about travelling to the Maze!!!!! Christ you don't half talk some shite.
Thats because it is an excuse for a pish up in a different country. They were talking about having to travel to home games you muppet!!!!
BTW. Gab Hurl was with me when this conversation went down, it was held in our house and all three mena are members of NISC.
Fair enough stew, they are entitled to their opinion, but what other NISCs are opposed who are further away than armagh - from derry and tyrone for example.
My family is against the idea and they all still live in derry.
Quote from: nifan on December 16, 2007, 07:34:11 PM
Fair enough stew, they are entitled to their opinion, but what other NISCs are opposed who are further away than armagh - from derry and tyrone for example.
My family is against the idea and they all still live in derry.
Thats great but they still think that the shaftie supporters wont want to travel down the road to the maze because they are 'lazy bastards'.
BTW Nifan, you have the busiest highway in the six right beside the maze and you also have the railroad right there as well do you not? I think the infrastructure excuse is bollocks and so do a lot of your own supporters.
Adding all the traffic for the stadium to the busiest highway in the six hardly seems like a good idea, for example for night games, or friday night concerts.
The railroad is one of the points of infrastructure that is the problem - there is no capacity, and no plans, to sort this out.
People keep telling us if the stadium is built it will definately be sorted out, but id like to see it before i believe it.
I certainly dont believe its bollocks, and nearly all the supporters I have talked to dont think its bollocks - including the people I know who work for the road service.
Quote from: nifan on December 16, 2007, 07:44:29 PM
Adding all the traffic for the stadium to the busiest highway in the six hardly seems like a good idea, for example for night games, or friday night concerts.
The railroad is one of the points of infrastructure that is the problem - there is no capacity, and no plans, to sort this out.
People keep telling us if the stadium is built it will definately be sorted out, but id like to see it before i believe it.
I certainly dont believe its bollocks, and nearly all the supporters I have talked to dont think its bollocks - including the people I know who work for the road service.
There are other roads about the place nifan as well you know and ALL the traffic does not have to tyravel on the M1.
Quote from: stew on December 16, 2007, 07:38:16 PMThats great but they still think that the shaftie supporters wont want to travel down the road to the maze because they are 'lazy bastards'.
What about all the non-Belafst NISCs who voted against the Maze?
Quote from: stew on December 16, 2007, 07:38:16 PM
BTW Nifan, you have the busiest highway in the six right beside the maze
And no way of getting from the motorway to the stadium, that is the whole problem. Unless you're expecting people to park along the M1 and walk from there?
Quote from: stew on December 16, 2007, 07:38:16 PM
and you also have the railroad right there as well do you not?
There is no train access to the Maze (the nearest unused halt is about 3 miles away) and no plans or money to build any train access. even is this could be got ropund, there aren't enough traisn in the whole of NI to get 40K people to the Maze and back (and all of the trains would have to run through Belfast any way, which would sort of defeat the object).
Quote from: stew on December 16, 2007, 07:38:16 PM
I think the infrastructure excuse is bollocks
So you think that the railway and bus companies and the Roads Service are wrong and you know better, so come on then tell us what you think is ging to happen and how much it will cost.
Quote from: stew on December 16, 2007, 07:38:16 PM. and so do a lot of your own supporters.
At the last survey 82% of NI supporters opposed the Maze, so 18% support it.
stew, you said it was beside the busiest road in the six, as though thats a good thing.
It is obvious most people going to the stadium are going to have to take the M1.
Adding the bulk of traffic going to the stadium to the busiest road in NI doesnt sound like the best solution to me.
Evening kickoffs will necessitate more traffic on the road during rush hour.
The railway is still pie in the sky stuff at the moment as far as anyone is aware.
Quote from: nifan on December 16, 2007, 08:35:52 PM
stew, you said it was beside the busiest road in the six, as though thats a good thing.
It is obvious most people going to the stadium are going to have to take the M1.
Adding the bulk of traffic going to the stadium to the busiest road in NI doesnt sound like the best solution to me.
Evening kickoffs will necessitate more traffic on the road during rush hour.
The railway is still pie in the sky stuff at the moment as far as anyone is aware.
Surely it would be ten times worse trying to cross the busy city.
Quote from: ziggysego on December 16, 2007, 08:39:45 PMSurely it would be ten times worse trying to cross the busy city.
There are 100's of roads in and around Belfast, plus bus and rail access. It also has hotels, bars etc so people can stagger their journey to the match. The Maze has one small side-road with no bus or train access and no other amenities (and no plans or budget to build any)
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 15, 2007, 04:25:35 PM
Quote from: SammyG on December 15, 2007, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: Main Street on December 14, 2007, 04:13:42 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
Sammy must have the laptop in the pub as he is reading this thread!
On the contrary, maybe in his rush to get out to the pub he left his computer on at home with the GAA Board page open.
Correct, computer left on doing an update but sure it's easier to throw abuse about.
Abuse? Sammy if we wanted to abuse you we could do a lot better than that ::)
You made a post saying SF "coaxed / co-erced the GAA" on this issue.
When asked for proof you asked us to prove its not true, which is a ridiculous argument by any standards.
This is why you are recieving all these comments, Sammy, you have ducked and dived around admitting you have nothing to back this up, except maybe a hunch, and by refusing to admit this and take the statement back your credibility is taking a real bashing.
I'm not argueing with you over any other point, but you need to either take that back or back the claim up.
Sammy still waiting for you to do the decent thing here.
Its ok to admit you were wrong Sammy, not a sign of weakness.
Your silence here is damning.
Quote from: nifan on December 16, 2007, 07:44:29 PM
Adding all the traffic for the stadium to the busiest highway in the six hardly seems like a good idea, for example for night games, or friday night concerts.
The railroad is one of the points of infrastructure that is the problem - there is no capacity, and no plans, to sort this out.
People keep telling us if the stadium is built it will definately be sorted out, but id like to see it before i believe it.
I certainly dont believe its bollocks, and nearly all the supporters I have talked to dont think its bollocks - including the people I know who work for the road service.
Ah, but you must remember that
the vast majority of fans attending the Maze will be there to watch gaelic football, not soccer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7117820.stm
The GAA will commit to putting 150000 bums on seats per year, compared to the IFA's 40000 pa.
Most gaelic football fans will come from the west and south.
If you contend that it's a bad idea to have 15k cars making there way to the Maze from the south and west, then how much worse would it be if these GAA fans clogged up not only the rest of the M1 to the east, but Belfast City traffic as well?
That article says 80000 football fans and 40000 rugby fans, who also have nighttime weekday kickoffs to contend with as well.
Quote from: nifan on December 17, 2007, 10:19:40 AM
That article says 80000 football fans and 40000 rugby fans, who also have nighttime weekday kickoffs to contend with as well.
Sorry, you're right I cut and pasted the IRFU figures by mistake.
The point I'm making remains the same however -
THE MAJORITY OF FANS USING ANY MULTI-SPORT STADIUM IN NI WILL BE GAELIC FOOTBALL FOLLWERS.The GAA have committed to put 150000 bums on seats, versus 80000 for the IFA, and 40000 for the IRFU.
Imo, genuinely independent studies of transport patterns of ALL fans to any new stadium, based on likely attendances (say on 2005 figures) should have been done a long time ago.
I reckon that any study would show
a. that nearly all fans would travel by car.
Forget all the guff about multi-modal transport nodes that Belfast offers.
It doesn't matter how many rail stations Belfast has, if there's not a train station in sight across south and west Ulster.
b. i. given the above, overall congestion would be reduced by an out of town site.
ii.Trying to bring 40k supports by road into an already congested city causes gridlock within the city and on the motorway that they're trying to exit.
iii.Surely properly constructed carparks designed solely to take flow off the motorway to be parked will be more efficient than pre-existing city roads already congested trying to get traffic from a to b.
c. Admittedly, mid-week soccer might give NI fans more hassle than they currently have.
But
i. If the Maze / M1 can take 40k coming from S/W Ulster, it could easily take 25k coming from Belfast.
ii. The needs of 25k mid-week soccer fans has to be weighed against 40k gaa ones struggling to travel through Belfast (see above).
iii. I do appreciate that, for Belfast based soccer fans, there will be more work involved in getting to midweek matches, and that their enjoyment will be curbed.
As always in this debate, what's your alternative? You either take the govt funding via the Maze, or have to go for a "yourselves alone" approach and raise funds yourselves (much like the GAA have done for 100 years).
QuoteTHE MAJORITY OF FANS USING ANY MULTI-SPORT STADIUM IN NI WILL BE GAELIC FOOTBALL FOLLWERS.
Yes, youve said. 55% of the users will be gaelic fans. It isnt the "vast majority" you said.
If its a shared stadium there should be discourse as to all uses, not one side claiming as they are biggest they should dictate, which is your general argument.
QuoteImo, genuinely independent studies of transport patterns of ALL fans to any new stadium, based on likely attendances (say on 2005 figures) should have been done a long time ago.
That i would agree with.
The problem here is that there has been nothing independant to date - the whole thing was selected by the SIB, half of whom also made up the Maze regeneration committee.
Quote from: nifan on December 17, 2007, 10:38:30 AM
QuoteTHE MAJORITY OF FANS USING ANY MULTI-SPORT STADIUM IN NI WILL BE GAELIC FOOTBALL FOLLWERS.
Yes, youve said. 55% of the users will be gaelic fans. It isnt the "vast majority" you said.
If its a shared stadium there should be discourse as to all uses, not one side claiming as they are biggest they should dictate, which is your general argument.
Well to my mind, the Maze is a good compromise re location.
Its only 10 miles from Belfast ffs.
If the GAA wasn't compromising, and was flexing its numeric/financial muscle, we'd have plumped for Dungannon or Armagh.
You guys need to take a few humility pills and realise that you'll make up less than a third of the total sports fans using the Maze.
Whilst everybody's views need to be taken into account, we can't let a militant minority dictate to everybody else.
In this whole saga, I haven't seen any recognition by NI fans of just how much they're the junior partners in all of this.
In their comments, I haven't seen one attempt to recognise, never mind cater for, the needs of the much larger numbers of gaelic football fans.
You'd almost think that they would never ever, under any circumstances want to share with us!
Quote from: nifan on December 17, 2007, 10:38:30 AM
QuoteImo, genuinely independent studies of transport patterns of ALL fans to any new stadium, based on likely attendances (say on 2005 figures) should have been done a long time ago.
That i would agree with.
The problem here is that there has been nothing independant to date - the whole thing was selected by the SIB, half of whom also made up the Maze regeneration committee.
I'd add that the UUJ / BCC report was absolutely shameful by claiming that Belfast was the optimal location without doing any geospatial analysis on likely users of the Maze (majority GAA fans), or on their likely travel mode and routes.
so we are agreed there should be independant study and that the whole thing has been horribly mismanaged to date.
At least thats something.
Quote from: nifan on December 17, 2007, 11:29:58 AM
so we are agreed there should be independant study and that the whole thing has been horribly mismanaged to date.
At least thats something.
Purely to dispel the self centred propaganda coming from NI soccer fans, there should be an independent geospatial study to
1. confirm that the majority of fands will be gaelic football ones coming from south / west Ulster.
2. determine fans' likely transport modes - vast majority for all sports will continue to use private cars because NI public transport is sh1t.
3. M1 access is preferable to bringing 40k gaa fans' cars into already congested city centre.
All of the above is pretty obvious to me already - very little to disagree with there surely.
In terms of misanagement, I do think that the key points re why the Maze is better for everybody (not just the one third NI fans) hasn't been delivered effectively.
I can understand why the Maze backers might want to pussy foot around NI fans, but imo taht's a big mistake because you lot are so blinkered to the bigger picture here.
We've had dysfunctional media coverage which has failed to reflect the reality which is that you guys are a militant minority, and that the whole project should be for all sports fans, not just yourselves.
your just trying to be insulting with this "militant minority" crap.
Im a fan whose main concern is for my organization. You are im sure the same - your disregard for the concerns of the NI/rugby fans based on your numerical superirity belies the fact that if the numbers where reversed your concern would still be for the GAA.
Quote from: nifan on December 17, 2007, 11:48:44 AM
your just trying to be insulting with this "militant minority" crap.
Im a fan whose main concern is for my organization. You are im sure the same - your disregard for the concerns of the NI/rugby fans based on your numerical superirity belies the fact that if the numbers where reversed your concern would still be for the GAA.
I'm not insulting anybody here, just stating the facts:
In this whole saga, I haven't seen any recognition by NI fans of just how much they're the junior partners in all of this.
In their comments, I haven't seen one attempt to recognise, never mind cater for, the needs of the much larger numbers of gaelic football fans.
By contrast the GAA has compromised on location. As have the IFA and IRFU, it has to be said.
The only absolutist rejectionists here are the NI soccer fans who in their hyperactive media campaign have never ever considered the needs of gaelic football fans.
We have to ask why is it, when the GAA/IFA/IRFU can agree to the Maze, that you guys can't?
Why should the whole project be centred around the fact that you guys (I'll state again -
a paltry one third of attendees) can't be arsed travelling 10 miles, while 40k gaa fans are expected to take the motorway further east and into Belfast's already congested streets.
Imo, your total lack of consideration for anyone but yourselves is the real insult here. It's almost as if gaelic football fans don't exist, and that you guys are somehow to be the sole beneficiaries of this new stadium.
All the more galling considering that we'll be putting most bums of seats and by extension, paying most of the running costs.
Time you lot grew up and looked beyond your OWC blinkers.
Quotecan't be arsed travelling 10 miles
I didnt have ANY PROBLEM AT ALL travelling from derry to windsor park, so claiming i cant be arsed travelling 10 miles is rubbish.
Quote from: nifan on December 17, 2007, 12:15:42 PM
Quotecan't be arsed travelling 10 miles
I didnt have ANY PROBLEM AT ALL travelling from derry to windsor park, so claiming i cant be arsed travelling 10 miles is rubbish.
OK, on point by point basis, can you say whether you agree / disagree with each of the following:
just an agree or disagree will do. we'll explore your reasons later.
1. the majority of fands will be gaelic football ones coming from south / west Ulster.
2. the vast majority of all fans will continue to use private cars regardless of where the stadium is because NI public transport is sh1t.
3. M1 access to the Maze is preferable to bringing 40k gaa fans' cars into already congested city centre.
4. Overall congestion will be less if 25k NI fans travel from Belfast to Maze, rather than having 40k GAA fans driving the extra distance down the M1 and into an already congested Belfast.
Snatter Im also concerned about the business case, upon which the whole thing hinges for all the sports, and which we have yet to see much from.
Hotels for example supposedly play a part in this? who wants to stay in a hotel at the maze? Away fans for a NI game perhaps, but not much else compared to a more desiable location.
as for your point by point.
1) yes
2) probably. One of the supposed plus points of the stadium in the maze is the potential for a rail spur and station. Surely if there is any feasibility for rail usage it would point to belfast which already has some capacity for rail usage (the train is bunged for rugby/gaa matches in dublin)
Buses would also make some usage - certainly for football with supporters clubs, unsure about gaa - which is a good thing whatever location is used.
3) Assuming all the gaa fans are coming from 1 location. Do they all have to travel on the M1, they will have to use the maze.
4) Overall congestion will be greater travelling during rush hours on weeknight fixtures where the weight of traffic is already considerable, compared to say sunday morning/afternoons.
having just looked at it in plan view, it probably is a good location for a stadium. The M1 looks strong as a future growth corridor. Given Lisburns position as a satillite town and future expansion from Belfast along the motorway it seems like a sensible place considering possible future growth. The raillinks and airport make it accessable to those travelling longer distances though rail links across Ireland need serious improvment. Although I would need to look at the Belfast Development Framework to see if such development is planned along the M1. But just from experience it would seem so.
Creating strong links (bus and rail) with Lisburn would provide a boost to the town and solve the immediate lack of facilites next to the stadium.
(http://www.nitb.com/image.aspx?ImageID=24678&Width=0&Height=0)
If there was a poll amongst GAA fans about the location how many would choose the Maze over Belfast?
I´d suspect > 85% would.
AFAIR the costing was about £90m for the stadium and £60m or £70m for the infrastructure incl car park and access roads.