comments by bishop mckeown recently regarding the dup and sinn fein have thrown a spotlight on the catholic churches privileged position in modern day Irish society IMO. the good bishop states that both parties somehow profit from promoting division in the wee six thriving on division.
so a man who represents a religion IE the roman catholic church thinks that having the taxpayer foot the bill for teaching his ethos in exclusive schools adorned with the names and emblems of his faith with teachers exclusively from HIS faith feels hard done by.
bishop mckeown thinks that by pissing off the men who represent the people who maintain and pay for his privileged position will somehow advance his agenda of feathering his and his Church's own nest. why would he want to see more integrated schools? they are the death knell of the dominance of catholic schools. eg i attended my youngsters first communion recently what i saw made me sick- a half dozen qualified teachers bowing and scraping and doing the job of a priest. it is HIS job to administer the faith! HIS job to teach catholic doctrine! why should taxpayers foot the bill? if mckeown want to promote HIS faith he should set up religious classes run by HIS faith in parochial halls. parents who want to learn catholism should bring their kids along. i wonder how many he'd get..?
there should be religious education in schools but it should be lessons 'about' religion and i mean all religions not just catholic ethos/doctrine. lessons to teach our kids what to expect should they meet someone of another faith. society should not be paying for the creation of catholics anymore than we would want to pay for the creation of Scientology or Mormons or any other religion.
In lawnseed's new ireland there will be no religion in schools. the teaching time now spent doing nativity plays and preparing for confession/communion and confirmation could be used to top up on math and English or P.E subjects our kids need more of.
BRING ON THE DUNGOUT
Someone should have educated you on how to spell education.....
Quote from: laoislad on July 02, 2013, 10:36:45 PM
Someone should have educated you on how to spell education.....
i'll keep you around after 'the dungout' for spelling 'education' and sex education duties ;)
I'm with you Lawnseed. Bishop McAreavey came to my school for a talk with leavers. During the talk he asked me what I wanted to do after school. At the time I intended to study at Trinity with a view to ultimately working in politics in Dublin. The Bishop asked why not join a party up here and I told him it was because there was no politics only sectarianism and it didn't appeal to me. Upon hearing that the bishop asked me to reconsider on the basis and ill never forget what he said that "the other side used to loose there best minds to England but that was slowing down so our side couldn't afford to loose people to Dublin. As it was us versus them to make sure they didn't take over again".
Nothing speeded up my distancing from the catholic faith quicker than that talk and its naked secterianism.
I agree with the DUP as there should be all integrated education.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 02, 2013, 10:59:22 PM
I'm with you Lawnseed. Bishop McAreavey came to my school for a talk with leavers. During the talk he asked me what I wanted to do after school. At the time I intended to study at Trinity with a view to ultimately working in politics in Dublin. The Bishop asked why not join a party up here and I told him it was because there was no politics only sectarianism and it didn't appeal to me. Upon hearing that the bishop asked me to reconsider on the basis and ill never forget what he said that "the other side used to loose there best minds to England but that was slowing down so our side couldn't afford to loose people to Dublin. As it was us versus them to make sure they didn't take over again".
Nothing speeded up my distancing from the catholic faith quicker than that talk and its naked secterianism.
Well, Bishop McAreavy was not wrong.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 02, 2013, 10:59:22 PM
I'm with you Lawnseed. Bishop McAreavey came to my school for a talk with leavers. During the talk he asked me what I wanted to do after school. At the time I intended to study at Trinity with a view to ultimately working in politics in Dublin. The Bishop asked why not join a party up here and I told him it was because there was no politics only sectarianism and it didn't appeal to me. Upon hearing that the bishop asked me to reconsider on the basis and ill never forget what he said that "the other side used to loose there best minds to England but that was slowing down so our side couldn't afford to loose people to Dublin. As it was us versus them to make sure they didn't take over again".
Nothing speeded up my distancing from the catholic faith quicker than that talk and its naked secterianism.
he shouldnt have been in the school in the first place.. why doesnt he stand out on the street and canvas passers by to see if he can convert some of them? because he doesn't have to.. irish society insures his faiths survival by brainwashing our kids the minute they begin their education.
this reminds me of a case where a lad (15) i was at school with lost his dad. he was off school for a while and when he came back he was naturally very vunerable and tearful. during morning prayer one of the teachers (stoops) noticed he wasnt saying his prayers and stopped the prayer to ask him why he wasnt praying. he lad said he'd lost his faith and no longer believed in god. he was brought out infront of the class and ordered to pray infront of all of us, he said again 'i dont believe in god' he was told to hold out his hand and was slapped with a strap again and again until he burst out crying and ran out of the class. the stoop chased after him and he was brought back. then he was taken to the principle a "christian' brother" where he was further beaten and then sent home. the next day when he returned he was told that the only way he could get back into school was if he prayed at morning assembly infront of the whole school... he refused. about a week later he did it just please his widowed mother who didnt want him going to the tech. i'll never forget the smug look on the faces of the shower of shite who were supposed to be teaching us as he had to repeat the hail mary in a decade of the rosary. that lad should have waited until he was older and went back and kicked the shit outta them all
Maybe Lawnseed you should discuss your issues with the priest/bishop that are so annoying you. What's the point in putting up another Catholic Church bashing thread ? It's been done to death here - are you looking for accolades from Mylestheslasher, Eamoncal etc. ?
Bravo, Lawnseed. Bravo, my boy.
Can't argue with most of that.
Quote from: lawnseed on July 02, 2013, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 02, 2013, 10:59:22 PM
I'm with you Lawnseed. Bishop McAreavey came to my school for a talk with leavers. During the talk he asked me what I wanted to do after school. At the time I intended to study at Trinity with a view to ultimately working in politics in Dublin. The Bishop asked why not join a party up here and I told him it was because there was no politics only sectarianism and it didn't appeal to me. Upon hearing that the bishop asked me to reconsider on the basis and ill never forget what he said that "the other side used to loose there best minds to England but that was slowing down so our side couldn't afford to loose people to Dublin. As it was us versus them to make sure they didn't take over again".
Nothing speeded up my distancing from the catholic faith quicker than that talk and its naked secterianism.
he shouldnt have been in the school in the first place.. why doesnt he stand out on the street and canvas passers by to see if he can convert some of them? because he doesn't have to.. irish society insures his faiths survival by brainwashing our kids the minute they begin their education.
this reminds me of a case where a lad (15) i was at school with lost his dad. he was off school for a while and when he came back he was naturally very vunerable and tearful. during morning prayer one of the teachers (stoops) noticed he wasnt saying his prayers and stopped the prayer to ask him why he wasnt praying. he lad said he'd lost his faith and no longer believed in god. he was brought out infront of the class and ordered to pray infront of all of us, he said again 'i dont believe in god' he was told to hold out his hand and was slapped with a strap again and again until he burst out crying and ran out of the class. the stoop chased after him and he was brought back. then he was taken to the principle a "christian' brother" where he was further beaten and then sent home. the next day when he returned he was told that the only way he could get back into school was if he prayed at morning assembly infront of the whole school... he refused. about a week later he did it just please his widowed mother who didnt want him going to the tech. i'll never forget the smug look on the faces of the shower of shite who were supposed to be teaching us as he had to repeat the hail mary in a decade of the rosary. that lad should have waited until he was older and went back and kicked the shit outta them all
Couldn't agree more. He should not have been in the school. Terrible for that young lad but not something that surprises me.
There has been multi-denominational education in RoI for many years - both my children attended schools of Educate-Together (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educate_Together (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educate_Together) patronage. Highly recommended, for atheists anyway (which is all I can comment on) - there's no religious instruction allowed in the schhol-day, while there is some broad education on religion and religions in general.
Quote from: laoislad on July 02, 2013, 10:36:45 PM
Someone should have educated you on how to spell education.....
And how to use capital letters.
I presume Lawnseed and the other Catholic Church bashing Nordies have the choice of sending ye're kids to a State school that doesn't do Catholic ethos.
A bit hypocritical to send kids to a Catholic school and then say "they're forcing Catholicism on my kids" ::)
Seems to be a lot of confusing religious instruction and religious education going on. All schools in the north have the same 'religious education' in that they all teach the same shared curriculum. Religious instruction in Catholicism is given in Catholic Maintained (CCMS) and some "integrated" but not in State/Protestant or Other Maintained (Irish language schools).
The only extra thing the CCMS schools offer is a "Catholic ethos" whatever that is but most tend to wrap it up with an "Irish cultural ethos". Indeed I know of atheists who quite happily send their children to CCMS schools for the Irish cultural ethos including one couple in particular who were very disappointed to discover "integrated" didn't mean "secular" and moved their son to CCMS.
Personally I believe religious instruction is a matter for the home and schools should be strictly secular. My own children attend a secular school but I can fully understand parents who send their children to CCMS as it's the nearest they can get to a school in the north which reflects their own cultural background and values i.e. an Irish cultural ethos.
http://www.roscommonherald.ie/2013/04/02/23-primary-schools-to-switch-from-catholic-patronage/ (http://www.roscommonherald.ie/2013/04/02/23-primary-schools-to-switch-from-catholic-patronage/)
Recent news story on conversion of 'Catholic'-patronage primary-schools - there's 'insufficient demand' for any alternative in Roscommon, apparently.
Quote from: Billys Boots on July 03, 2013, 10:40:53 AM
There has been multi-denominational education in RoI for many years - both my children attended schools of Educate-Together (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educate_Together (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educate_Together) patronage. Highly recommended, for atheists anyway (which is all I can comment on) - there's no religious instruction allowed in the schhol-day, while there is some broad education on religion and religions in general.
My daughter is starting Gaelscoil in September and they actually follow the ET curriculum, think they might come under the same governing body and the lack of religious instruction was a definite selling point.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2013, 12:46:03 PM
My daughter is starting Gaelscoil in September and they actually follow the ET curriculum, think they might come under the same governing body and the lack of religious instruction was a definite selling point.
There are different curricula in southern schools?
QuoteMy daughter is starting Gaelscoil in September and they actually follow the ET curriculum, think they might come under the same governing body and the lack of religious instruction was a definite selling point.
Definitely not Dinny - See http://afpatrunachta.wordpress.com/choice-of-ethos/ (http://afpatrunachta.wordpress.com/choice-of-ethos/) Its multidenominational rather than non-denominational and I know from my own kids experience the local PP was on the board and full religious instruction for communion and confirmation was part of the deal
QuoteI'm with you Lawnseed. Bishop McAreavey came to my school for a talk with leavers. During the talk he asked me what I wanted to do after school. At the time I intended to study at Trinity with a view to ultimately working in politics in Dublin. The Bishop asked why not join a party up here and I told him it was because there was no politics only sectarianism and it didn't appeal to me. Upon hearing that the bishop asked me to reconsider on the basis and ill never forget what he said that "the other side used to loose there best minds to England but that was slowing down so our side couldn't afford to loose people to Dublin. As it was us versus them to make sure they didn't take over again"
Whatever about Lawnseed's original point, it is reasonable enough to regret that people opposed to sectarianism leave and so leave the the field clear for bigots as a consequence. This is not really to do with religion, someone from SF would have made the same point.
Quote from: Declan on July 03, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
QuoteMy daughter is starting Gaelscoil in September and they actually follow the ET curriculum, think they might come under the same governing body and the lack of religious instruction was a definite selling point.
Definitely not Dinny - See http://afpatrunachta.wordpress.com/choice-of-ethos/ (http://afpatrunachta.wordpress.com/choice-of-ethos/) Its multidenominational rather than non-denominational and I know from my own kids experience the local PP was on the board and full religious instruction for communion and confirmation was part of the deal
ET is multi-denominational as well though. There is no specific denominational taught in the Gaelscoil that my daughter will be attending and the PP is certainly not on the board. They very much have aligned themselves to ET, they even share a building. Hence why I thought they might come under the same governing body.
I was only aware of one ET gaelscoil - it was in Cork. I'm at a bit of a loss why AFP would have been the patron body Dinny, unless there weren't enough parents interested in running with the ET model.
Quote from: Ulick on July 03, 2013, 12:50:38 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2013, 12:46:03 PM
My daughter is starting Gaelscoil in September and they actually follow the ET curriculum, think they might come under the same governing body and the lack of religious instruction was a definite selling point.
There are different curricula in southern schools?
No Ulick, the curriculum is identical in all schools - the Catholic patronage schools provide (additional) religious instruction during the school-day, which is not part of the national curriculum. Catholic parents (in non Catholic-patronage schools) organise religious instruction for their children which is taught outside the normal school-day (normally in the evenings, once a week at the school I know). Communion and confirmation is organised by the (Catholic) parents' committee in conjunction with the local parish, I think.
Quote from: Billys Boots on July 03, 2013, 01:11:04 PM
I was only aware of one ET gaelscoil - it was in Cork. I'm at a bit of a loss why AFP would have been the patron body Dinny, unless there weren't enough parents interested in running with the ET model.
I'd say it's just me confusing things, my wife has been more involved, has been elected chairperson of the parents committee. My daughter was enrolled in both ET and GS and we decided on the GS.
Didn't even realise that the curricula was the same for all primary schools :-[
Mental note - most take more interest in my children's education...
Quote from: Billys Boots on July 03, 2013, 12:30:59 PM
http://www.roscommonherald.ie/2013/04/02/23-primary-schools-to-switch-from-catholic-patronage/ (http://www.roscommonherald.ie/2013/04/02/23-primary-schools-to-switch-from-catholic-patronage/)
Recent news story on conversion of 'Catholic'-patronage primary-schools - there's 'insufficient demand' for any alternative in Roscommon, apparently.
We aren't going to throw away 1500 years of history/tradition/heritage so we can be like all the rest of the Quasisecularist Upper Middle Class Neo Liberal boring world.
We Rossies were , are and always will be a class apart.
We also have an unfair advantage in that when you see the lovely place God made for us you can't but be impressed by Him and believe.
Mind you I can understand why Mayogodhelpus is a non believer ;D
Have to say that I think it's partially because of the phasing out ot RE; or less significance given to it, that social norms and value have taken a mighty kick in the gonads. I'm a basic non believer, not hater, but I do think RE helps to further enforce certain aspects of decency and respect which is increasingly lacking in many our our yonger generation
Religious education is not being phased out in the Irish curriculum; religious instruction has been.
that's why I added the bit about less significance given to
It's a broken system. I remember at Nathy's even after we'd completed the mandatory religion Junior Cert course and not opted to take religion for the Leaving we had to take three religion classes a week.
Luckily we had a pretty great teacher so it wasn't a bore but the clincher for me was that we'd stopped doing PE and having any computer classes at all after JC. That's so backways in terms of preparing children for the future I hardly know where to start.
Quote from: ardal on July 03, 2013, 03:08:19 PM
that's why I added the bit about less significance given to
I'd disagree Ardal - my kids learned about what the different religions were, what they believed, what their rules and customs were. They weren't told you have to do this and that; weren't subjected to rules; were encouraged more to think about issues - I thought it was a very rounded approach, and more likely to produce positive social results than the alternative (from my own days anyway).
Ulick is on the money here. And Bishop McKeown (one of the good ones) from what I understand is challenging the "integration" of education for profiteering. Take for example the proposed merging of the secondary schools in Armagh, is that not a fictional "merging" for money? Fill out the forms, check the boxes and get a few million from some fund or other....
You don't have to be religious to attend Catholic or Protestant schools. If you want your child to go to a school where they can compete at a high level in Gaelic games and be surrounded in an Irish culture then surely an integrated school is not the answer?
I wonder what the standard of football would be in clubs/parishes where only integrated schools existed? Maybe schools don't play a huge part but from what I remember getting football at a competitive level at school made all the difference.....
We need to have Catholic school to maintain the standard of Gaelic Football?
I've heard it all now.
We should have sufficient Catholic schools to meet the genuine demand that is obviously there for them. But no more than that. Political reasoning shouldn't come into it and as for Gaa. Jebus.
Quote from: ardal on July 03, 2013, 03:01:21 PM
Have to say that I think it's partially because of the phasing out ot RE; or less significance given to it, that social norms and value have taken a mighty kick in the gonads. I'm a basic non believer, not hater, but I do think RE helps to further enforce certain aspects of decency and respect which is increasingly lacking in many our our yonger generation
Have they?
Racism and homophobia are no longer acceptable attitudes. Political corruption was once considered a fact of life but nowadays is subject to one tribunal after another and the public is sick of it. Smoking indoors around non smokers was once considered acceptable but not anymore. People didn't used to pass any remarks about animal cruelty but nowadays people are horrified by it. There's more respect for the rules of the road than there used to be.
Seems to me like social norms and values have improved.
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 04:42:39 PM
We need to have Catholic school to maintain the standard of Gaelic Football?
I've heard it all now.
We should have sufficient Catholic schools to meet the genuine demand that is obviously there for them. But no more than that. Political reasoning shouldn't come into it and as for Gaa. Jebus.
Sorry for bringing GAA into the discussion on a GAA board. I was agreeing with Ulick that the schools can be and are used by many non believers to expose their kids to Irish ethos and culture. Following on form that, seeing as GAA is a part of Irish culture, my point is that integrated schools will not and have not produced too many GAA standouts.
Unless you live in a town with a big club like Cross who have a fantastic underage system and compete at the top level then you aren't getting top competition. Schools are how this has been addressed in the past. Kids go to schools known for football and get exposed to higher levels of competition, better coaching and better football. In my final year in secondary school we had 7 or 8 Future All Ireland winners on our McRory team. Can't see that happening at the integrated level.....
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 04:50:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 04:42:39 PM
We need to have Catholic school to maintain the standard of Gaelic Football?
I've heard it all now.
We should have sufficient Catholic schools to meet the genuine demand that is obviously there for them. But no more than that. Political reasoning shouldn't come into it and as for Gaa. Jebus.
Sorry for bringing GAA into the discussion on a GAA board. I was agreeing with Ulick that the schools can be and are used by many non believers to expose their kids to Irish ethos and culture. Following on form that, seeing as GAA is a part of Irish culture, my point is that integrated schools will not and have not produced too many GAA standouts.
Unless you live in a town with a big club like Cross who have a fantastic underage system and compete at the top level then you aren't getting top competition. Schools are how this has been addressed in the past. Kids go to schools known for football and get exposed to higher levels of competition, better coaching and better football. In my final year in secondary school we had 7 or 8 Future All Ireland winners on our McRory team. Can't see that happening at the integrated level.....
You think mentioning Gaa on a GaaBoard is a winning argument. It isn't. This is a thread on religion in schools. There are many political, demographic and cultural issues. If you think your schools should be bastions of your culture then you de facto accept that other schools should be bastions of unionism and loyalism. I'd rather not promote the differences any more than we have to.
And Gaelic Games are alive and kicking, despite our love of predicting their demise.
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
"
I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games."
Here is where your mock-devoted pious facade crumbles. You assume because you blindly defend the Church that you are a better parent, that you can teach more about Irish history, Irish music, Irish language and gaelic Games than I can. And this without knowing anything about me. Your arrogance can't hide your hypocrisy.
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 06:48:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
"I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games."
Here is where your mock-devoted pious facade crumbles. You assume because you blindly defend the Church that you are a better parent, that you can teach more about Irish history, Irish music, Irish language and gaelic Games than I can. And this without knowing anything about me. Your arrogance can't hide your hypocrisy.
No, you read that completely wrong, in fact the opposite of what I intended. I don't assume any of that. You might be a wonderful parent, who knows. You might be able to teach your kids all these things.
As for me I can't teach my kids about Irish history, Culture, Language or Gaelic games anywhere close to the level they would receive in a Catholic School. Pushing integrated education takes these things away from my children and others who aren't as gifted as you might be.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 06:48:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
"I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games."
Here is where your mock-devoted pious facade crumbles. You assume because you blindly defend the Church that you are a better parent, that you can teach more about Irish history, Irish music, Irish language and gaelic Games than I can. And this without knowing anything about me. Your arrogance can't hide your hypocrisy.
No, you read that completely wrong, in fact the opposite of what I intended. I don't assume any of that. You might be a wonderful parent, who knows. You might be able to teach your kids all these things.
As for me I can't teach my kids about Irish history, Culture, Language or Gaelic games anywhere close to the level they would receive in a Catholic School. Pushing integrated education takes these things away from my children and others who aren't as gifted as you might be.
Am I supposed to believe that your short post, which started as a lecture, then moved to suggesting culture didn't matter to me before finally saying I was brilliant at teaching my children something which didn't matter to me?
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
what? i started this thread, i dont do soapbox. i'm not in muppets brigade!!! the facts are we have an unelected rep of the catholic church playing politics. a guys who's faith enjoys a very privilaged position in irish society whereby the state funds and nurtures thier religion. hes slagging off the the two main parties in the six counties because he see his privilages coming under scrutiny. this comes on the back of berties promise to make the hard pressed irish taxpayer pay the compo to the victoms of religious paedos.. paying the victoms of one of the wealthiest institutions on the planet??!! i think mr mckeown should count his blessings since it is he who benefits the most from sectarian hatred/differences and he who wants to highlight the "difference" in christian churches when they are basically just like soccer teams playing the same game. one started by tyrant roman emperor (augustus) and another started by a horny old english king (henry)
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 08:32:49 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 06:48:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
"I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games."
Here is where your mock-devoted pious facade crumbles. You assume because you blindly defend the Church that you are a better parent, that you can teach more about Irish history, Irish music, Irish language and gaelic Games than I can. And this without knowing anything about me. Your arrogance can't hide your hypocrisy.
No, you read that completely wrong, in fact the opposite of what I intended. I don't assume any of that. You might be a wonderful parent, who knows. You might be able to teach your kids all these things.
As for me I can't teach my kids about Irish history, Culture, Language or Gaelic games anywhere close to the level they would receive in a Catholic School. Pushing integrated education takes these things away from my children and others who aren't as gifted as you might be.
Am I supposed to believe that your short post, which started as a lecture, then moved to suggesting culture didn't matter to me before finally saying I was brilliant at teaching my children something which didn't matter to me?
I'm asking if you are (if you cared about it)? Because if you are (and you did care about it) then culture wouldn't matter in schools to someone like you - but what about everyone else?
I understand you don't care for religion, now you don't care for Irish culture.
Religion aside, many people here do care about Irish Culture - its the source of this discussion board. For me the GAA goes hand in hand with Irish Culture.
I would imagine that you are in a small minority who have no room in education for the preservation and promotion of Irish culture.
So basically
Quote from: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 10:09:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
what? i started this thread, i dont do soapbox. i'm not in muppets brigade!!! the facts are we have an unelected rep of the catholic church playing politics. a guys who's faith enjoys a very privilaged position in irish society whereby the state funds and nurtures thier religion. hes slagging off the the two main parties in the six counties because he see his privilages coming under scrutiny. this comes on the back of berties promise to make the hard pressed irish taxpayer pay the compo to the victoms of religious paedos.. paying the victoms of one of the wealthiest institutions on the planet??!! i think mr mckeown should count his blessings since it is he who benefits the most from sectarian hatred/differences and he who wants to highlight the "difference" in christian churches when they are basically just like soccer teams playing the same game. one started by tyrant roman emperor (augustus) and another started by a horny old english king (henry)
I think you're doing a great soapbox....
The state does not Nurture the Roman Catholic Church - tell us how the State cares for and encourages the development of the faith / Church?
How do you know Bishop McKeown is concerned with these "privileges"? (which you have yet to define or explain).
How do you know he is not concerned with the preservation of the faith, concerned that if left to parents that kids will not receive any education of or introduction to God?
Please tell us how Bishop McKeown benefits most from sectarianism?
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 10:41:22 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 10:09:31 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
what? i started this thread, i dont do soapbox. i'm not in muppets brigade!!! the facts are we have an unelected rep of the catholic church playing politics. a guys who's faith enjoys a very privilaged position in irish society whereby the state funds and nurtures thier religion. hes slagging off the the two main parties in the six counties because he see his privilages coming under scrutiny. this comes on the back of berties promise to make the hard pressed irish taxpayer pay the compo to the victoms of religious paedos.. paying the victoms of one of the wealthiest institutions on the planet??!! i think mr mckeown should count his blessings since it is he who benefits the most from sectarian hatred/differences and he who wants to highlight the "difference" in christian churches when they are basically just like soccer teams playing the same game. one started by tyrant roman emperor (augustus) and another started by a horny old english king (henry)
I think you're doing a great soapbox....
The state does not Nurture the Roman Catholic Church - tell us how the State cares for and encourages the development of the faith / Church?
How do you know Bishop McKeown is concerned with these "privileges"? (which you have yet to define or explain).
How do you know he is not concerned with the preservation of the faith, concerned that if left to parents that kids will not receive any education of or introduction to God?
Please tell us how Bishop McKeown benefits most from sectarianism?
the state does not nurture the roman catholic church?? the taxpayer provides them with buildings,teachers etc to teach their faith. were i a couch hopping scientoligist i'd be asking why not my religion as well?
the provision of these facilities to the catholic faith and not other religions IS a privilege.
he is concerned with the preservation of HIS faith through the status quo.
bishop mckeown benefits from sectarianism?? heres how.. i know a man who moved to london in the sixties a country gent he found a church near his work. he attended "mass" there for nearly 3mths before someone told him he was infact going to a church of england. thats how mr mckeown benefits from sectarianism that type of sceneario could never happen here suchn is the level of heightened sectarianism. mr mc keowns position is helped by the perceived treat to the existance of his faith by the other christian faiths.
as for an introduction to god.. as a child i was told that 'god is everywhere...' 'even in your schoolbag' if this is infact the case why should anyone go looking for him? mr mc keowns only concern is that his dwindling congregation will dissappear completely.. since catholic schools are his main and mostly his only way of maintaining his numbers any talk of more intergration by peter robinson makes him a threat and someone to attack. i agree with robbo. if this place is to move on our children need to meet and grow up together as schoolmates.
Catholicisim is not Irish culture.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 04, 2013, 12:13:59 AM
Catholicisim is not Irish culture.
Thanks be to God. 8)
In this day and age it's impossible to justify the state subsidizing an education system that's designed to crank out the next generation of indoctrinated sheep who will grow up to carry on dropping money in the basket in the chapel every weekend. The sooner this subsidy stops the better.
Quote from: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 11:24:25 PM
the state does not nurture the roman catholic church?? the taxpayer provides them with buildings,teachers etc to teach their faith. were i a couch hopping scientoligist i'd be asking why not my religion as well?
The education taught in these schools as has been pointed out is basically the same as other state run schools. What these schools maintain is a Catholic ethos for which in today's Ireland you can read Irish ethos. There are very few schools in the entire country where Clergy teach. In fact I think st. Patrick's in Armagh is the only one in the country with a Priest as Head Master. Religion is taught in these schools as another subject, which students can choose to drop when it comes to G.C.S.E level. there are no additional religion classes on offer and religion is not taught during other lessons. So I'm still unclear from your answer how the state is nurturing the Catholic Faith
Quote from: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 11:24:25 PM
the provision of these facilities to the catholic faith and not other religions IS a privilege.
There are many other schools throughout the country who maintain a Protestant / Christian ethos. These schools are also funded by the state and offer nothing different in terms of academics that "Catholic" schools but different sporting opportunities based on cultural ethos.
Quote from: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 11:24:25 PM
he is concerned with the preservation of HIS faith through the status quo.
Don't see anything wrong with that and would expect nothing less from a bishop trying to Shepherd the people
Quote from: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 11:24:25 PM
bishop mckeown benefits from sectarianism?? heres how.. i know a man who moved to london in the sixties a country gent he found a church near his work. he attended "mass" there for nearly 3mths before someone told him he was infact going to a church of england. thats how mr mckeown benefits from sectarianism that type of sceneario could never happen here suchn is the level of heightened sectarianism. mr mc keowns position is helped by the perceived treat to the existance of his faith by the other christian faiths.
Not a great example. Here's why. The man who moved to London if he really was a Catholic should have known he wasn't at Mass. If he was paying attention he would have seen that there was no tabernacle, no sanctuary light, he would have wondered why there was no crucifix or no statues. He might have wondered to himself why the consecration didn't happen, the main part of the Mass. I don't think it's fair to make that assessment on all Catholics based on one "Catholic" who obviously doesn't fully participate in the teachings of the Church.
Quote from: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 11:24:25 PM
as for an introduction to god.. as a child i was told that 'god is everywhere...' 'even in your schoolbag' if this is infact the case why should anyone go looking for him? mr mc keowns only concern is that his dwindling congregation will dissappear completely.. since catholic schools are his main and mostly his only way of maintaining his numbers any talk of more intergration by peter robinson makes him a threat and someone to attack. i agree with robbo. if this place is to move on our children need to meet and grow up together as schoolmates.
God is spiritually present everywhere, that is correct. The Catholic church teaches that God is fully present (body, soul and divinity) in the Holy Eucharist. You can't meet him anywhere else (in that way) but in the Catholic Church.
Countries all over the world have faith based schools and universities. They are packed. Their protestant neighbours have no problems with them, because their politics are the same.
So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.
Quote from: ardchieftain on July 04, 2013, 01:25:33 AM
So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.
He also thinks you need to be Catholic to be Irish, a church of the long gone Roman Empire and a representative of a foreign and hostile state, The Vatican City. A church imposed on us by another extinct and formally hostile foreign state, England.
The Roman Catholic Church, the church that would have us ruled by London and Rome.
Father Horan seem to be doing some good things for ye, you may have to give the ould faith a second chance.
It was a priest that cursed ye to wander the Earth All-Irelandless, after all.
Quote from: Syferus on July 04, 2013, 02:33:05 AM
It was a priest that cursed ye to wander the Earth All-Irelandless, after all.
Superstitious rubbish.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 04, 2013, 03:03:22 AM
Quote from: Syferus on July 04, 2013, 02:33:05 AM
It was a priest that cursed ye to wander the Earth All-Irelandless, after all.
Superstitious rubbish.
It's still holdin' true, though. Might have a fair wait ahead of you yet, the Flying Doctor looks in top form.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 04, 2013, 02:17:40 AM
Quote from: ardchieftain on July 04, 2013, 01:25:33 AM
So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.
He also thinks you need to be Catholic to be Irish, a church of the long gone Roman Empire and a representative of a foreign and hostile state, The Vatican City. A church imposed on us by another extinct and formally hostile foreign state, England.
The Roman Catholic Church, the church that would have us ruled by London and Rome.
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
PS if you don't believe any of that ask yourself why the DUP are so keen to get rid of the Maintained and Other Maintained sectors.
Quote from: Ulick on July 04, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 04, 2013, 02:17:40 AM
Quote from: ardchieftain on July 04, 2013, 01:25:33 AM
So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.
He also thinks you need to be Catholic to be Irish, a church of the long gone Roman Empire and a representative of a foreign and hostile state, The Vatican City. A church imposed on us by another extinct and formally hostile foreign state, England.
The Roman Catholic Church, the church that would have us ruled by London and Rome.
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
Agree 100 per cent, Catholic schools in the north contributed significantly to the maintenance of the Irish identity during a period whe it was treated at best as "other" and at worst to be discriminated against and subverted at every opportunity. Thank god the nationalist community in the north is now confident in itself and is no longer on its knees.
Quote from: artisan2010 on July 04, 2013, 07:53:27 AM
Quote from: Ulick on July 04, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 04, 2013, 02:17:40 AM
Quote from: ardchieftain on July 04, 2013, 01:25:33 AM
So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.
He also thinks you need to be Catholic to be Irish, a church of the long gone Roman Empire and a representative of a foreign and hostile state, The Vatican City. A church imposed on us by another extinct and formally hostile foreign state, England.
The Roman Catholic Church, the church that would have us ruled by London and Rome.
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
Agree 100 per cent, Catholic schools in the north contributed significantly to the maintenance of the Irish identity during a period whe it was treated at best as "other" and at worst to be discriminated against and subverted at every opportunity. Thank god the nationalist community in the north is now confident in itself and is no longer on its knees.
If there is one thing I will give the Catholic church credit for it is for education during the troubles, but its record on voicing any dissatisfaction with British wrongdoings during this time is extremely poor other than the honorable exception of Cardinal Ó Fiaich.
It may have been self serving to an extent, but with no industries to walk into like our protestant neighbours a good education was your only hope.
As to Icemans point Catholicism and Irishness were synonymous for decades, home rule equals Rome rule had a ring of truth to it. Through the dastardly deeds of the church itself this link is well and truly broken and for the good of everyone.
Do RTE still have the angelus at 6PM every evening, a call to the family rosary for 10 minutes of mumbling...
Quote from: Ulick on July 04, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 04, 2013, 02:17:40 AM
Quote from: ardchieftain on July 04, 2013, 01:25:33 AM
So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.
He also thinks you need to be Catholic to be Irish, a church of the long gone Roman Empire and a representative of a foreign and hostile state, The Vatican City. A church imposed on us by another extinct and formally hostile foreign state, England.
The Roman Catholic Church, the church that would have us ruled by London and Rome.
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
Don't forget the hedge schools.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 03, 2013, 04:44:36 PM
Quote from: ardal on July 03, 2013, 03:01:21 PM
Have to say that I think it's partially because of the phasing out of RE; or less significance given to it, that social norms and value have taken a mighty kick in the gonads. I'm a basic non believer, not hater, but I do think RE helps to further enforce certain aspects of decency and respect which is increasingly lacking in many our our younger generation
Have they?
Racism and homophobia are no longer acceptable attitudes. Political corruption was once considered a fact of life but nowadays is subject to one tribunal after another and the public is sick of it. Smoking indoors around non smokers was once considered acceptable but not anymore. People didn't used to pass any remarks about animal cruelty but nowadays people are horrified by it. There's more respect for the rules of the road than there used to be.
Seems to me like social norms and values have improved.
Seems to me that you're leaping before looking.
Norms and values in society are basic issues of respect, please, thank you, saying sorry, not attacking people because you want to take what they have, common courtesy; not car rage etc.
Tribunals? Who's been sentenced thus far and how many tribunals have we had and at what cost. Who has paid the cost?
As a people we complain a hell of a lot which is completely justified but then again actions speak louder than words
Quote from: ardal on July 04, 2013, 10:11:39 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 03, 2013, 04:44:36 PM
Quote from: ardal on July 03, 2013, 03:01:21 PM
Have to say that I think it's partially because of the phasing out of RE; or less significance given to it, that social norms and value have taken a mighty kick in the gonads. I'm a basic non believer, not hater, but I do think RE helps to further enforce certain aspects of decency and respect which is increasingly lacking in many our our younger generation
Have they?
Racism and homophobia are no longer acceptable attitudes. Political corruption was once considered a fact of life but nowadays is subject to one tribunal after another and the public is sick of it. Smoking indoors around non smokers was once considered acceptable but not anymore. People didn't used to pass any remarks about animal cruelty but nowadays people are horrified by it. There's more respect for the rules of the road than there used to be.
Seems to me like social norms and values have improved.
Seems to me that you're leaping before looking.
Norms and values in society are basic issues of respect, please, thank you, saying sorry, not attacking people because you want to take what they have, common courtesy; not car rage etc.
And are these basic values under threat or in retreat? I'm not seeing any indication that they are. People in the street are as polite now as they ever were. Since when did you need to be "saved" or "washed in the blood of the lamb" to adhere to values like that? Religion takes far too much credit for instilling virtues that are already instilled by human nature.
QuoteTribunals? Who's been sentenced thus far and how many tribunals have we had and at what cost. Who has paid the cost?
As a people we complain a hell of a lot which is completely justified but then again actions speak louder than words
Huh? What's all this got to do with the price of fish?
QuoteIn this day and age it's impossible to justify the state subsidizing an education system that's designed to crank out the next generation of indoctrinated sheep who will grow up to carry on dropping money in the basket in the chapel every weekend
Ah yes, the erudition and open minded nature of such anti Catholic contributions here is in sharp contrast to these schools which don't fully respect people who don't agree with their view.
Quote from: Ulick on July 04, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
Absolutely right. It's gas how people only see in Catholic schools throughout the 20th century a regime of brainwashing, harsh both physically and mentally. This is fair enough on its own merits - it was brainwashing and it was harsh - but any serious analysis of the education system in the North has to take into account the regime that would have being operating in an integrated system. Anyone who thinks that the Nationalist community would have emerged intact from a system which would have been proceeding from the principle that Northern Ireland was as British as Finchley is fooling themselves. Of course, maybe those people advocating such a system wanted everyone to receive such an education, but they should be honest about it.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 04, 2013, 10:30:29 AM
Quote from: ardal on July 04, 2013, 10:11:39 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 03, 2013, 04:44:36 PM
Quote from: ardal on July 03, 2013, 03:01:21 PM
Have to say that I think it's partially because of the phasing out of RE; or less significance given to it, that social norms and value have taken a mighty kick in the gonads. I'm a basic non believer, not hater, but I do think RE helps to further enforce certain aspects of decency and respect which is increasingly lacking in many our our younger generation
Have they?
Racism and homophobia are no longer acceptable attitudes. Political corruption was once considered a fact of life but nowadays is subject to one tribunal after another and the public is sick of it. Smoking indoors around non smokers was once considered acceptable but not anymore. People didn't used to pass any remarks about animal cruelty but nowadays people are horrified by it. There's more respect for the rules of the road than there used to be.
Seems to me like social norms and values have improved.
Seems to me that you're leaping before looking.
Norms and values in society are basic issues of respect, please, thank you, saying sorry, not attacking people because you want to take what they have, common courtesy; not car rage etc.
And are these basic values under threat or in retreat? I'm not seeing any indication that they are. People in the street are as polite now as they ever were. Since when did you need to be "saved" or "washed in the blood of the lamb" to adhere to values like that? Religion takes far too much credit for instilling virtues that are already instilled by human nature.
QuoteTribunals? Who's been sentenced thus far and how many tribunals have we had and at what cost. Who has paid the cost?
As a people we complain a hell of a lot which is completely justified but then again actions speak louder than words
Huh? What's all this got to do with the price of fish?
Sorry Eamonnca but you introduced Tribunals as people doing something so if you don't know the price of fish, take a rod and go fishing with the kids; alternatively buy them a game for their X Box.
With regards to the general respect that society has for each other, why don't you put it on youtube as you attack someone in the street, or twitter me as I sit in the seat opposite you, sure what's the problem we can buy everything we want but what do we need?
PS My use of "you" is plural.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 10:35:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 08:32:49 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 03, 2013, 06:48:06 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 03, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....
Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.
"I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games."
Here is where your mock-devoted pious facade crumbles. You assume because you blindly defend the Church that you are a better parent, that you can teach more about Irish history, Irish music, Irish language and gaelic Games than I can. And this without knowing anything about me. Your arrogance can't hide your hypocrisy.
No, you read that completely wrong, in fact the opposite of what I intended. I don't assume any of that. You might be a wonderful parent, who knows. You might be able to teach your kids all these things.
As for me I can't teach my kids about Irish history, Culture, Language or Gaelic games anywhere close to the level they would receive in a Catholic School. Pushing integrated education takes these things away from my children and others who aren't as gifted as you might be.
Am I supposed to believe that your short post, which started as a lecture, then moved to suggesting culture didn't matter to me before finally saying I was brilliant at teaching my children something which didn't matter to me?
I'm asking if you are (if you cared about it)? Because if you are (and you did care about it) then culture wouldn't matter in schools to someone like you - but what about everyone else?
I understand you don't care for religion, now you don't care for Irish culture.
Religion aside, many people here do care about Irish Culture - its the source of this discussion board. For me the GAA goes hand in hand with Irish Culture.
I would imagine that you are in a small minority who have no room in education for the preservation and promotion of Irish culture.
So basically
What sort of nutcase are you?
I think I should leave you to argue with yourself, as you simply make up things that I never said and attribute them to me.
Quote from: Ulick on July 04, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on July 04, 2013, 02:17:40 AM
Quote from: ardchieftain on July 04, 2013, 01:25:33 AM
So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.
He also thinks you need to be Catholic to be Irish, a church of the long gone Roman Empire and a representative of a foreign and hostile state, The Vatican City. A church imposed on us by another extinct and formally hostile foreign state, England.
The Roman Catholic Church, the church that would have us ruled by London and Rome.
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
I'll speak for myself thank you.
My main argument with Iceman is simply that the best argument for Catholic Schools to remain, isn't for the promotion of Gaelic Games as he suggested.
The 2nd best argument isn't that we need them to preserve Irish culture. We don't. The Church is about its own culture, end of. They promoted their culture, Latin masses etc, we promoted our culture, not the other way round. If you examine all Catholic Church records of births, marriages & deaths going back as far as you can, you will not find a single one in the Irish language. Why? Their leadership doesn't even consider itself subject to our laws, never mind our culture.
The best argument for Catholic schools, as I've already said, is that there is a demand for them and that demand should be met.
Quote from: deiseach on July 04, 2013, 12:13:02 PM
Quote from: Ulick on July 04, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
Absolutely right. It's gas how people only see in Catholic schools throughout the 20th century a regime of brainwashing, harsh both physically and mentally. This is fair enough on its own merits - it was brainwashing and it was harsh - but any serious analysis of the education system in the North has to take into account the regime that would have being operating in an integrated system. Anyone who thinks that the Nationalist community would have emerged intact from a system which would have been proceeding from the principle that Northern Ireland was as British as Finchley is fooling themselves. Of course, maybe those people advocating such a system wanted everyone to receive such an education, but they should be honest about it.
The irony is deiseach that the Provisionals and SF were actually in favour of integrated education as far back as the early 70's but they could not adopt it as an overt policy as to do so would go in direct conflict with the singularly most influential body in the nationalist community, the RC church.
The Catholic schools I attended tried to bate the culture out of you.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 04, 2013, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 04, 2013, 12:13:02 PM
Quote from: Ulick on July 04, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.
Absolutely right. It's gas how people only see in Catholic schools throughout the 20th century a regime of brainwashing, harsh both physically and mentally. This is fair enough on its own merits - it was brainwashing and it was harsh - but any serious analysis of the education system in the North has to take into account the regime that would have being operating in an integrated system. Anyone who thinks that the Nationalist community would have emerged intact from a system which would have been proceeding from the principle that Northern Ireland was as British as Finchley is fooling themselves. Of course, maybe those people advocating such a system wanted everyone to receive such an education, but they should be honest about it.
The irony is deiseach that the Provisionals and SF were actually in favour of integrated education as far back as the early 70's but they could not adopt it as an overt policy as to do so would go in direct conflict with the singularly most influential body in the nationalist community, the RC church.
Jebus lads, if the Brits ever introduced any auld Penal Laws we'd be Morris Dancing at the crossroads every night, wouldn't we?
Quote from: ardal on July 04, 2013, 12:22:31 PM
Sorry Eamonnca but you introduced Tribunals as people doing something so if you don't know the price of fish, take a rod and go fishing with the kids; alternatively buy them a game for their X Box.
With regards to the general respect that society has for each other, why don't you put it on youtube as you attack someone in the street, or twitter me as I sit in the seat opposite you, sure what's the problem we can buy everything we want but what do we need?
PS My use of "you" is plural.
What are you waffling about?
In my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours. Under no circumstances should any school be under the patronage of any church nor have some bishop or priests as the head of that school unless they are voted in as a chairman like in any other committee. Seems a reasonable approach to me but I am sure the religious nazis would have another view on this.
Did you know in Germany to avail of a specific church you declare that you are a member and pay an extra "church tax" which pays for the upkeep of that church through government funding. You won't be married or confirmed etc unless you pay the tax. I think that is a great idea. Imagine how many people in Ireland would save a few pound from drinking or smoking to pay for the upkeep of their church.
Bishop Martin's views on school patronage which most Catholics would support :
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/catholics-must-let-go-of-schools-martin-1.1254624 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/catholics-must-let-go-of-schools-martin-1.1254624)
However if Myles and his ilk had their way we "religious nazis" would have to go back to the hedge schools of the penal days.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on July 04, 2013, 08:45:18 PM
In my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours. Under no circumstances should any school be under the patronage of any church nor have some bishop or priests as the head of that school unless they are voted in as a chairman like in any other committee. Seems a reasonable approach to me but I am sure the religious nazis would have another view on this.
Did you know in Germany to avail of a specific church you declare that you are a member and pay an extra "church tax" which pays for the upkeep of that church through government funding. You won't be married or confirmed etc unless you pay the tax. I think that is a great idea. Imagine how many people in Ireland would save a few pound from drinking or smoking to pay for the upkeep of their church.
If Irish people had to pay Church tax, the census would be 95% atheist.
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on July 04, 2013, 11:46:24 PM
Bishop Martin's views on school patronage which most Catholics would support :
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/catholics-must-let-go-of-schools-martin-1.1254624 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/catholics-must-let-go-of-schools-martin-1.1254624)
However if Myles and his ilk had their way we "religious nazis" would have to go back to the hedge schools of the penal days.
No you can learn the real subjects in a real school, you can tell your fairytails along the hedgerows.
The principal in Nathy's during my time (a priest, of course) was found to have been claiming a wage for a dead former staff member for years. Actually made me like him more, though I didn't like him much to begin with.
Fact is a lot of the reason we still have so many Catholic schools is because the State gets free priest teachers and Church-subsidised expenditure. It was always rubbed into us in Nathy's that we were getting significantly less from the State as Community Colleges and the like.
Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2013, 01:52:24 AM
The principal in Nathy's during my time (a priest, of course) was found to have been claiming a wage for a dead former staff member for years. Actually made me like him more, though I didn't like him much to begin with.
Fact is a lot of the reason we still have so many Catholic schools is because the State gets free priest teachers and Church-subsidised expenditure. It was always rubbed into us in Nathy's that we were getting significantly less from the State as Community Colleges and the like.
Um, what? You suddenly liked him when you found out he was a thieving, lying fraud? What does a priest have to do before you people will stop licking their taws and defending them? Rape a child or somethi ... oh.
Quote from: muppet on July 04, 2013, 06:53:27 PM
Jebus lads, if the Brits ever introduced any auld Penal Laws we'd be Morris Dancing at the crossroads every night, wouldn't we?
Probably. But if the goal was to preserve our cultural identity in the North in the face of Unionist propoganda and we had a choice between Catholic schools and Penal Laws, which would you choose?
QuoteIn my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours.
This is generally what happens in Educate Together schools.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 04, 2013, 08:34:50 PM
Quote from: ardal on July 04, 2013, 12:22:31 PM
Sorry Eamonnca but you introduced Tribunals as people doing something so if you don't know the price of fish, take a rod and go fishing with the kids; alternatively buy them a game for their X Box.
With regards to the general respect that society has for each other, why don't you put it on youtube as you attack someone in the street, or twitter me as I sit in the seat opposite you, sure what's the problem we can buy everything we want but what do we need?
PS My use of "you" is plural.
What are you waffling about?
My humble apologies. I'd thought you had more gumsome and intellect to decipher for yourself. Sorry again
Quote from: Billys Boots on July 05, 2013, 09:13:02 AM
QuoteIn my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours.
This is generally what happens in Educate Together schools.
cannot speak for the educational system in England in general, but in certain pockets where relations live- the above is how Catholic schools operate or operated at least in the 70's in England.
there was a weekly religion class, but it featured all religions.
Specific Catholic instruction was performed on a weekly basis by your own parish priest (or CC).so parisioners were divided up according to their parish and went to the appointed classroom with said priest/CC.
However, I may add that if it is a 'Catholic' school here that people want to send their kids to - that this school costs the state less and it adheres to the national curriculum (though I find that to be a bit out of date) and the school gets good results - then what is the problem.
if you dont want your kid to receive religious instruction then dont send them to that school.
however, most kids dont listen to that religious stuff anyway (and a lot of other classes) so its all handbags here imo !!
Other schools will permit them to sit quietly in the class while religious instruction is going on.
Most kids will be close to falling asleep in such classes so I cant see that being any problem other than boredom!
Lynchbhoy, I think I would consider that allowing the Catholic church to run their education system for the past 90 years has not cost the state less (in hindsight) than running a proper state-led education system, from the off.
Quote from: Billys Boots on July 05, 2013, 12:01:01 PM
Lynchbhoy, I think I would consider that allowing the Catholic church to run their education system for the past 90 years has not cost the state less (in hindsight) than running a proper state-led education system, from the off.
cant say I'd agree with that but no big deal.
Im talking about what individual costs have been per school.
what you say though is easy in hindsight, but you have to remember that historically , whether you like it or not, that the schools were set up for the catholic kids by the church as hedge schools were not quite up to it.
We cannot change history, so a debt of gratitude on education is owed to the catholic church.
also they currently churn out highly educated kids - top notch in terms of leaving cert etc- so imo why change this because it is not to the liking of some and not secular?
I think in time these schools will mostly die off anyhow, but think it would be very daft to get rid of them when they are performing well. The clamour to go to secular educate together schools is fine - but if thats what you want, great.
Others dont want it. Choice is a great thing.
If I had kids I'd be sending them to a tried and tested plus trusted establishment before I'd send to an educate together school (for many reasons).
Its a bit like choosing a company with whom to do business with. You usually want to partner up with someone with a track record, not take any chance/risk. Again that will possibly improve with time.
Don't disagree about the history - presently there are very, very few priests/nuns/brothers/monks left in the teaching profession, it's almost 100% secular (in terms of teachers). Thus the 'educated kids', nowadays, have nothing to do with the church - it certainly isn't because they have religious instruction, as opposed to religious education.
Educate Together has been providing patronage to national schools since 1978 - there are ca. 70 primary schools operating under their patronage in Ireland today. You can have whatever problems you like with them, but it would be a fallacy to say that they're not tried and tested, with a very good track record.
Yeah , the idea is good as it gives choice - but these are still only in early stages in this country.
Maybe it's just around here but i know of a few families who took their kids out of educate together schools to go back into mainstream tried and tested school- yes catholic based ones.
IMO these 'catholic schools' are not what people think they are. In the early 80's our Christian brothers school never taught religion or only a couple of teachers would pray ( eg say the angelus).
From what I hear this is commonplace now - so can't understand why people have issues with 'catholic schools'!
I attended De LaSalle brothers and must say they were fantastic educators. I went on to attain 2 degrees and a postgraduate diploma. They taught very little religion in the secondary school, but did in the primary. However in my opinion any religion is too much religion if taught on curriculum time. I would rather my future children taught about Gaelic myths and possibly Norse, Norman or Planter mythology as they are our ancestors, not Latin or Semetic myths.
Quote from: deiseach on July 05, 2013, 08:57:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 04, 2013, 06:53:27 PM
Jebus lads, if the Brits ever introduced any auld Penal Laws we'd be Morris Dancing at the crossroads every night, wouldn't we?
Probably. But if the goal was to preserve our cultural identity in the North in the face of Unionist propoganda and we had a choice between Catholic schools and Penal Laws, which would you choose?
Deiseach, do you think that question is slightly loaded?
The Irish in the North faced far worse than rugby and cricket in school and yet their culture is still world renowned.
If we're going to get into "what if" speculation about what would have happened if there were no catholic schools then two can play at that game. How about the state sector would have been half full of fenians and there's no way they'd have allowed those schools to become de-facto protestant schools with no accommodation for the Irish language or Gaelic games in PE? But with our ones absent from the system there was no opposition to that. The authorities could make the state sector as protestant/unionist in ethos as they liked and the Catholics/nationalists didn't care because they had their own separate system.
Interestingly, integrated education is not a new idea. There were "model schools" in the early nineteenth century in which Catholics and protestants were taught together. There were no religious symbols allowed on display except during religious lessons when the flocks* were separated into different rooms, a sign was put up saying that religious instruction was underway, and the clergy was allowed in to direct the teaching. Religious symbols had to be put away at the end of each religion lesson.
The model schools were ahead of their time, and like the apologists for segregation of today they had their opponents back then too. Church leaders opposed such an inclusive and secular system because they weren't satisfied with the quality of brainwashing, so we ended up with the segregated system we still have today, and the segregated society that goes with it.
*Does the God Squad not feel a bit embarrassed by the fact that they're openly referred to as "sheep" in need of a "shepherd"?
Quote from: ardal on July 05, 2013, 10:24:54 AM
My humble apologies. I'd thought you had more gumsome and intellect to decipher for yourself. Sorry again
Don't apologise. It's my fault for never taking a course in gibberish.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
*Does the God Squad not feel a bit embarrassed by the fact that they're openly referred to as "sheep" in need of a "shepherd"?
No - because we are humble enough to accept that we're not perfect - unlike the secularists who think they know everything. ;)
Quote from: Rossfan on July 05, 2013, 10:42:04 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
*Does the God Squad not feel a bit embarrassed by the fact that they're openly referred to as "sheep" in need of a "shepherd"?
No - because we are humble enough to accept that we're not perfect - unlike the secularists who think they know everything. ;)
Humble my arse. In this 26 counties alone you spill your shit across our constitution. You impose yourselves on our education system. You ring your bells on our televisions. The religious to humility is like Ebola to a newborn child.
You need help Mr ironically named MayoGODhelpus. All that hate and anger is not good for you.
The Constitution was voted in by the people of the 26 Counties.
If you don't like the Angelus then don't listen to it.
I can't stand fcukin Ryan Tubridy so I always make sure not to watch the LLS.
If it wasn't for the Catholic and Church of Ireland schools the vast majority of the people of the 26 Cos would never have got an education.
Eboli ?? Maybe you've got it??
Quote from: Rossfan on July 05, 2013, 10:42:04 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
*Does the God Squad not feel a bit embarrassed by the fact that they're openly referred to as "sheep" in need of a "shepherd"?
No - because we are humble enough to accept that we're not perfect - unlike the secularists who think they know everything. ;)
Okay, I'll bite.
Scientist: "I don't know the answer to this question, so I'll do some research and use use empirical evidence to draw conclusions, then subject it to peer review and see how well it stands up to scrutiny."
Theist: "The answer to this question is simple: God did it. That's the answer to everything that man cannot answer. You name it, I can explain it using this old text that was written by middle-eastern goat herders who thought the earth was flat. And you'd better effing believe me, coz if you don't you'll be tortured for all eternity after your death like all the other people who don't believe me."
So tell me again, who thinks he knows it all?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on July 04, 2013, 08:45:18 PM
In my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours. Under no circumstances should any school be under the patronage of any church nor have some bishop or priests as the head of that school unless they are voted in as a chairman like in any other committee. Seems a reasonable approach to me but I am sure the religious nazis would have another view on this.
Did you know in Germany to avail of a specific church you declare that you are a member and pay an extra "church tax" which pays for the upkeep of that church through government funding. You won't be married or confirmed etc unless you pay the tax. I think that is a great idea. Imagine how many people in Ireland would save a few pound from drinking or smoking to pay for the upkeep of their church
yes myles. but why have it in the school at all. why not a church hall?
i'm surprised by the notion that to be really irish you need to be catholic and all this pure mentality that we had instilled that must be why we ignore the laws of the country we live in much preferring to circumvent the rules in any underhand way we can leading to the shit we are in right now. I suggest that 'catholic' countries are the most corrupt on the planet, Italy? spain, Ireland, Portugal all great countries.. i'm sure.
as for clergy in eduacation ::) I was taught in a christain brothers school and I can state the fact that only that they are dead now they'd be in jail for inappropriate behaviour or abuse or some parent/pastpupil would be doing time for killing one of the f**kers! but sure at least they made me irish...
Quote from: muppet on July 05, 2013, 08:49:14 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 05, 2013, 08:57:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 04, 2013, 06:53:27 PM
Jebus lads, if the Brits ever introduced any auld Penal Laws we'd be Morris Dancing at the crossroads every night, wouldn't we?
Probably. But if the goal was to preserve our cultural identity in the North in the face of Unionist propoganda and we had a choice between Catholic schools and Penal Laws, which would you choose?
Deiseach, do you think that question is slightly loaded?
The Irish in the North faced far worse than rugby and cricket in school and yet their culture is still world renowned.
Of course it's loaded, but you were the one who brought up the Penal Laws. Seeing as you seemed to present it as an either/or choice, I asked which you'd rather. As for rugby and cricket in schools, do you really think that's the only difference between the educations delivered in the respective sectors in schools in the North?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
If we're going to get into "what if" speculation about what would have happened if there were no catholic schools then two can play at that game. How about the state sector would have been half full of fenians and there's no way they'd have allowed those schools to become de-facto protestant schools with no accommodation for the Irish language or Gaelic games in PE? But with our ones absent from the system there was no opposition to that. The authorities could make the state sector as protestant/unionist in ethos as they liked and the Catholics/nationalists didn't care because they had their own separate system.
Looking at the history of Northern Ireland, the idea that there was 'no way' the Unionist hegemonists would have been able to perpetrate a system whereby it was their way or the (Queen's) highway is just plain weird. There's 'no way' the Northern state would have permitted the Irish language to be taught or Gaelic games played in schools. And those are pretty benign examples. Much more serious would be the history taught in the respective schools. There's nothing wrong with a good what-if exercise, but this is a terrible one.
Quote from: deiseach on July 08, 2013, 11:07:01 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 05, 2013, 08:49:14 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 05, 2013, 08:57:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 04, 2013, 06:53:27 PM
Jebus lads, if the Brits ever introduced any auld Penal Laws we'd be Morris Dancing at the crossroads every night, wouldn't we?
Probably. But if the goal was to preserve our cultural identity in the North in the face of Unionist propoganda and we had a choice between Catholic schools and Penal Laws, which would you choose?
Deiseach, do you think that question is slightly loaded?
The Irish in the North faced far worse than rugby and cricket in school and yet their culture is still world renowned.
Of course it's loaded, but you were the one who brought up the Penal Laws. Seeing as you seemed to present it as an either/or choice, I asked which you'd rather. As for rugby and cricket in schools, do you really think that's the only difference between the educations delivered in the respective sectors in schools in the North?
Of course not, but it is hardly the reason to retain the status quo, which is what Iceman was arguing.
Imho we should be moving away from our historical baggage.
Quote from: muppet on July 08, 2013, 03:05:26 PM
Of course not, but it is hardly the reason to retain the status quo, which is what Iceman was arguing.
Imho we should be moving away from our historical baggage.
Fair enough, I take your point.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 11:14:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 05, 2013, 10:42:04 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
*Does the God Squad not feel a bit embarrassed by the fact that they're openly referred to as "sheep" in need of a "shepherd"?
No - because we are humble enough to accept that we're not perfect - unlike the secularists who think they know everything. ;)
Okay, I'll bite.
Scientist: "I don't know the answer to this question, so I'll do some research and use use empirical evidence to draw conclusions, then subject it to peer review and see how well it stands up to scrutiny."
Theist: "The answer to this question is simple: God did it. That's the answer to everything that man cannot answer. You name it, I can explain it using this old text that was written by middle-eastern goat herders who thought the earth was flat. And you'd better effing believe me, coz if you don't you'll be tortured for all eternity after your death like all the other people who don't believe me."
Can you please tell me the names of the 2 individuals who said/wrote that? any links etc
Or is it you just putting your own views ( prejudiced and blinkered etc - like all of us) and dressing them up as the thoughts of two other people? ;D
It's a summary of two arguments. It's a rebuttal of the "arrogant scientists think they know it all" trope. If anybody thinks they know it all it's the religious.
In your biased opinion.
I hereby inaugurate the Fiddler bursary of €5 in Betfair tokens for the first person to deliver an unbiased opinion in this forum. The contest closes on 31st December 2020 if there is no successful claimant by then.
Anyway another succinct summary of the diverse approaches of science and religion to the great questions of life, the universe, everything:
Science is questions that may not be answered. Religion is answers that may not be questioned.
Of course it's my opinion. Who else's opinion would it be?
Sorry lads and ladies, was offline for a ween o' days.
My points have been misrepresented as always..... As has the significance of the "Catholic" tag on "Catholic schools". Our baldy SanFranscisco friend would have us all believe that Catholic education means everyone stops on the hour every hour for prayers, that all students are being nurtured for the Priesthood or Holy Orders and the lessons taught are all tied in to Catholicism. none of that is true.
Today Catholic doesn't mean very much in schools. It's a tag, a stamp and for the most part when a school has a Catholic ethos it really means an Irish ethos. The Irish language will be studied and offered at GCSE level, Gaelic games will be the primary sports of the school and Irish music and all things cultural will be at the very core of what the school does and who the school are.
Going after the "Catholic" part, and from what I see the only way to do that is with "integrated" education, then I believe you lose the "Irish" part too.
No reading between the lines, no making shit up - this is my main point.
Argo ......
Quote from: The Iceman on July 09, 2013, 06:56:16 PM
Sorry lads and ladies, was offline for a ween o' days.
My points have been misrepresented as always..... As has the significance of the "Catholic" tag on "Catholic schools". Our baldy SanFranscisco friend would have us all believe that Catholic education means everyone stops on the hour every hour for prayers, that all students are being nurtured for the Priesthood or Holy Orders and the lessons taught are all tied in to Catholicism. none of that is true.
Today Catholic doesn't mean very much in schools. It's a tag, a stamp and for the most part when a school has a Catholic ethos it really means an Irish ethos. The Irish language will be studied and offered at GCSE level, Gaelic games will be the primary sports of the school and Irish music and all things cultural will be at the very core of what the school does and who the school are.
Going after the "Catholic" part, and from what I see the only way to do that is with "integrated" education, then I believe you lose the "Irish" part too.
No reading between the lines, no making shit up - this is my main point.
Argo ......
My son starts an integrated school next month.
They will teach Irish, Gaelic Games will be the primary sports, indeed they were the only ones represented (by 2 local clubs) at the 2 open days I attended, and Irish music will be taught. Other cultures will also be well represented.
Just looked at their website and they also offer Irish dancing lessons after school and even offer Irish lessons for adults at night.
Quote from: lawnseed on July 06, 2013, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on July 04, 2013, 08:45:18 PM
In my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours. Under no circumstances should any school be under the patronage of any church nor have some bishop or priests as the head of that school unless they are voted in as a chairman like in any other committee. Seems a reasonable approach to me but I am sure the religious nazis would have another view on this.
Did you know in Germany to avail of a specific church you declare that you are a member and pay an extra "church tax" which pays for the upkeep of that church through government funding. You won't be married or confirmed etc unless you pay the tax. I think that is a great idea. Imagine how many people in Ireland would save a few pound from drinking or smoking to pay for the upkeep of their church
yes myles. but why have it in the school at all. why not a church hall?
i'm surprised by the notion that to be really irish you need to be catholic and all this pure mentality that we had instilled that must be why we ignore the laws of the country we live in much preferring to circumvent the rules in any underhand way we can leading to the shit we are in right now. I suggest that 'catholic' countries are the most corrupt on the planet, Italy? spain, Ireland, Portugal all great countries.. i'm sure.
as for clergy in eduacation ::) I was taught in a christain brothers school and I can state the fact that only that they are dead now they'd be in jail for inappropriate behaviour or abuse or some parent/pastpupil would be doing time for killing one of the f**kers! but sure at least they made me irish...
Have it in the school as the kids are already assembled there. If you want your kids to stay for an extra hour at your cost then grand. If you don't care to give your kids a religious education they go home at 3pm (end of the normal school day) on the bus. I'm not sure what the rest of your post has to do with this thread?
Depends how you define culture I suppose.
Christianity was certainly a part of our culture. So was superstition, occupation by a foreign power and poverty. Famine was part of our culture along with frequent rebellion. Infighting was a huge part of our culture along with poetry, literature and many dialects of our own language.
Nothing lasts for ever. Some of the above has thankfully left us, more is on the way out sadly, while the Church is seeing probably the most rapid decline of the above list in the last 20 years.
I might put this another way.
Which should the Government prioritise, due to our cultural decline:
* subsidising the Irish Language
or
* subsidising the Catholic Church to remain in most of our schools?
Like I said earlier, I was educated in Catholics Schools and have no ideological objection to it whatsoever. However I just think it should meet the demand. Those who want it should, wherever possible have it, the rest can have secular schools as they desire.
Quote from: muppet on July 09, 2013, 07:04:20 PM
Just looked at their website and they also offer Irish dancing lessons after school and even offer Irish lessons for adults at night.
Given the choice, I'd pick the school that beat religious dogma into them.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: ardal on July 05, 2013, 10:24:54 AM
My humble apologies. I'd thought you had more gumsome and intellect to decipher for yourself. Sorry again
Don't apologise. It's my fault for never taking a course in gibberish.
You obviously didn't take the course because you wrote and delivered it. You're just being pedantic now.
Quote from: ardal on July 11, 2013, 01:02:08 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 05, 2013, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: ardal on July 05, 2013, 10:24:54 AM
My humble apologies. I'd thought you had more gumsome and intellect to decipher for yourself. Sorry again
Don't apologise. It's my fault for never taking a course in gibberish.
You obviously didn't take the course because you wrote and delivered it. You're just being pedantic now.
*snore*