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O hAílpín says inter-county players should be paid
By Daragh Ó Conchúir
Thursday, April 29, 2010

CORK'S hurling All Star Seán Óg O hAilpín is adamant inter-county GAA players should be paid for performing at the highest level and for "entertaining hundreds of thousands of people".

Speaking in an interview for the Irish language newspaper, Foinse, O hAilpín made no bones about his wish for a structure that would facilitate the payment of players.

He said he would be in favour of establishing a central fund, similar to that proposed by Tadhg Kennelly last year, with a cut of the funding generated by media rights, sponsorship and gate receipts being funnelled into it.

"I would like to see the day that players get paid," said the former All-Ireland winning captain.

"The market in Ireland is very small and there are only five or six games during the year that are sold out. Maybe it would be worthwhile looking at some system relying on gate receipts or maybe even to establish a central fund for players. I'm definitely in favour of paying the players. They have to get something."

The Na Piarsaigh stalwart added that he will never become a media pundit after his retirement, having dabbled in it earlier in his career with TG4, because he claimed criticising sportspeople who are preparing professionally while receiving no money would not be in his nature.

"I think about what I'll do when I finish hurling. I certainly have no interest in becoming a media pundit. I have a problem giving out about players, especially when they're not being paid. They have to go back to their work, their homes, their families after every game. I understand that completely."

O hAilpín admits that he has always wanted to be a professional sportsman and that he is jealous of his younger brothers, Setanta and Aisake, for having that opportunity with Aussie Rules club Carlton Blues, even if he has lived another dream by representing Cork instead.

"I would give my right hand to have that chance (in the AFL). Setanta has carved out a career there and is making his living from it. I wanted to be a professional when I was a young boy but that's life.

"I got something else instead that was brilliant. I got the chance to play for Cork at the highest level."

Interestingly, although Eoin Cadogan is currently juggling the two codes at senior level, O hAilpín, doesn't think it is sustainable in the long term.

He knows what he's talking about, having done it himself, playing in both All-Ireland finals in 1999. He eventually packed up the football and considers it to have been a wise decision.

"We train four or five times a week. If you're training like that for hurling and then if your football manager is asking you to train another four or five times, there aren't enough days in the week.

"You could be marking Henry Shefflin against Kilkenny next Sunday — a player who puts his whole time into hurling training. Then the following week, against Kerry, you could be playing against Colm Cooper who is putting 100% into the football. They might be two Irish sports but the skills involved are completely different. As soon as I gave up football (for Cork), my hurling improved. You can't do it these days."


This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Thursday, April 29, 2010


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.ie/sport/gaa/o-hailpin-says-inter-county-players-should-be-paid-118452.html#ixzz0mTfAiwnh

No surprise this one. At least he is honest about his agenda

What he means is "I would like to be paid"

Quote from: longrunsthefox on April 29, 2010, 10:35:58 AM
No surprise this one. At least he is honest about his agenda

+1

Quote from: longrunsthefox on April 29, 2010, 10:35:58 AM
No surprise this one. At least he is honest about his agenda

What is his agenda, he is at the tail end of his career so won't earn a red cent out of it.  For what it is worth too he is not a GPA head like Donal Og before anyone starts banging that drum.  This is an individual's opinion and he is expressing the feelings of, i would guess, a lot of inter county players who give up so much to entertain us.  It is a live and valid point and will not go away as much as some people would like to try to make it go away.

wont be a media pundit like cos his speech is brutal like

He's not the only one by a long shot, read a few interviews on some site with some younger lads at the start of their careers and the majority of them want to be paid.

It's hardly surprising that a lot of players would like to be paid. I'd like to be paid for playing tennis as badly as I do. But that doesn't mean it would be the right decision for Tennis Ireland to start paying people like me (even though I entertain countless dozens of people with the way I play).

In other news, pope is Catholic.

I'd say if you asked any player would you like to be a professional GAA player, the vast majority would say yes please.

However, the GAA as an organisation must not go down that road, in my opinion, for reasons that have been done to death here.

Anyhow, my mantra is that players who represent their county are honoured to do so, but should be looked after and not be directly out of pocket because of their involvement.

Thus by all means pay gym membership, give them gear, help them with diet etc. But that's it.

Quite frankly its pretty pathetic at this stage. If thats much of a problem Sean Og- play something else.
I used to know lads at college who were international rowers and trained 6 days a week, twice a day for a grant of 1000 Irish punts per annum. This concept that GAA is only the amateur bastion left in the world really is bullshit when you get down to it.
If you want to be a professional play something else- you won't be missed.

Alternatively he could retire and make a fortune 'coaching' teams, cos that's no problem nudge nudge wink wink.sshh here comes the taxman.

Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2010, 11:29:48 AM
It's hardly surprising that a lot of players would like to be paid. I'd like to be paid for playing tennis as badly as I do. But that doesn't mean it would be the right decision for Tennis Ireland to start paying people like me (even though I entertain countless dozens of people with the way I play).

That would be great fun to watch, you and I must meet in Carrigaline for a game before I go!  But seriously, the difference between your ananlogy and Indiana's is that Tennis Ireland and the Irish Rowing Association will not generate millions per annum on the back of the sports, the GAA will generate that amount of money with inter county squads, as will associated companies like O'Neill's and the various different sponsors.  While it is right to ensure that players are looked after, is that really enough to compensate them for what they do.  Of course it is an honour to play for your county but you have to work hard to get there.  It is an honour for Brian O'Driscoll to captain his country to a Grand Slam but did he do it just for the honour?  Bullshit, he is good at what he does and gets handsomly rewarded.

The commitments of the current inter county player, and for that matter a player on a top club side, have changed dramtically in the least 15 years.  When this question comes up on the board I often wonder how many of the nay sayers have played at a decent level to understand the commitment that is required and the abuse on your body that this involves?  I know AZ has played at a decent level but that was before the way things are done now.  I know 1 or 2 others do so at the minute and they are of the opinion that more money should be fed back to the players.  Full pay for play is unsustainable but a structured payment system backed by the sponsors and a central body should be implemented.  This should incorporate things like a basic wage, fringe benefits to include gym membership, health care cover(to continue after they retire) and other individual bonuses like sponsored cars etc.  So long as it is carefully monitored and a proper structure put in place I think it would work.

Name the date, BC and turn up with your right arm in a sling.

Anyway, this argument has been done to death here, as AZ says and we all know each others' positions. Just to summarise my position, for old time's sake:

1. The player does not provide any kind of service to the GAA; the GAA provides a service to the player and that's the fundamental difference between amateur sport and sports where people have to be paid to participate.

2. The GAA cannot sustain payments to players without radically restructuring (destroying, in my view) the major competitions to the extent that the top level competitions (whatever they would be called by the sponsors who would decide their names) would be confined to the very small number of teams (whatever they would be called by the sponsors who would decide their names) that the market could support, playing to a new set of rules (heavily influenced by the sponsors who would ensure they were sexed up for TV).

It has proven impossible for all other sports to resist the march of pay for play, so you're probably right that it's bound to happen. But I won't be watching it.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 29, 2010, 12:14:27 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2010, 11:29:48 AM
It's hardly surprising that a lot of players would like to be paid. I'd like to be paid for playing tennis as badly as I do. But that doesn't mean it would be the right decision for Tennis Ireland to start paying people like me (even though I entertain countless dozens of people with the way I play).

That would be great fun to watch, you and I must meet in Carrigaline for a game before I go!  But seriously, the difference between your ananlogy and Indiana's is that Tennis Ireland and the Irish Rowing Association will not generate millions per annum on the back of the sports, the GAA will generate that amount of money with inter county squads, as will associated companies like O'Neill's and the various different sponsors.  While it is right to ensure that players are looked after, is that really enough to compensate them for what they do.  Of course it is an honour to play for your county but you have to work hard to get there.  It is an honour for Brian O'Driscoll to captain his country to a Grand Slam but did he do it just for the honour?  Bullshit, he is good at what he does and gets handsomly rewarded.

The commitments of the current inter county player, and for that matter a player on a top club side, have changed dramtically in the least 15 years.  When this question comes up on the board I often wonder how many of the nay sayers have played at a decent level to understand the commitment that is required and the abuse on your body that this involves?  I know AZ has played at a decent level but that was before the way things are done now.  I know 1 or 2 others do so at the minute and they are of the opinion that more money should be fed back to the players.  Full pay for play is unsustainable but a structured payment system backed by the sponsors and a central body should be implemented.  This should incorporate things like a basic wage, fringe benefits to include gym membership, health care cover(to continue after they retire) and other individual bonuses like sponsored cars etc.  So long as it is carefully monitored and a proper structure put in place I think it would work.

I am well aware of the requirements today- I don't think I need to put the teams I was fortunate to play for and coach as a justification for my opinion. And the point you're missing is you can't get a little bit pregnant.
Same way you can't pay players a little bit. You either do it or you don't. And when you start you can't stop. What you're proposing is a non runner in my opinion because players will want all the cake once they get a some form of payment. The younger generations will simply say I'm generating all the cash and I want it all. Then the club scene becomes like the Irish Rugby club scene.

Then its end game. the association we have is gone forever and it ain't ever coming back.
There is too much training at county level anyway for what is a poor standard. In my view. You only have to look at the lack of the basics last weekend to see the low standard of football at present. But the GAA wasn't smart enough to stop the monster when it started.
So its probably inevitable but when it does start thats my involvement finished. I'd prefer to remember being part of something I consider special rather than partake in something I inherently don't believe in.
I'm sick of the high opinions some county players have of their individual talents despite being unable to kick the ball accurately with one foot never mind two. And they want to be paid for that?

Quote from: INDIANA on April 29, 2010, 12:42:10 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 29, 2010, 12:14:27 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2010, 11:29:48 AM
It's hardly surprising that a lot of players would like to be paid. I'd like to be paid for playing tennis as badly as I do. But that doesn't mean it would be the right decision for Tennis Ireland to start paying people like me (even though I entertain countless dozens of people with the way I play).

That would be great fun to watch, you and I must meet in Carrigaline for a game before I go!  But seriously, the difference between your ananlogy and Indiana's is that Tennis Ireland and the Irish Rowing Association will not generate millions per annum on the back of the sports, the GAA will generate that amount of money with inter county squads, as will associated companies like O'Neill's and the various different sponsors.  While it is right to ensure that players are looked after, is that really enough to compensate them for what they do.  Of course it is an honour to play for your county but you have to work hard to get there.  It is an honour for Brian O'Driscoll to captain his country to a Grand Slam but did he do it just for the honour?  Bullshit, he is good at what he does and gets handsomly rewarded.

The commitments of the current inter county player, and for that matter a player on a top club side, have changed dramtically in the least 15 years.  When this question comes up on the board I often wonder how many of the nay sayers have played at a decent level to understand the commitment that is required and the abuse on your body that this involves?  I know AZ has played at a decent level but that was before the way things are done now.  I know 1 or 2 others do so at the minute and they are of the opinion that more money should be fed back to the players.  Full pay for play is unsustainable but a structured payment system backed by the sponsors and a central body should be implemented.  This should incorporate things like a basic wage, fringe benefits to include gym membership, health care cover(to continue after they retire) and other individual bonuses like sponsored cars etc.  So long as it is carefully monitored and a proper structure put in place I think it would work.

I am well aware of the requirements today- I don't think I need to put the teams I was fortunate to play for and coach as a justification for my opinion. And the point you're missing is you can't get a little bit pregnant.
Same way you can't pay players a little bit. You either do it or you don't. And when you start you can't stop. What you're proposing is a non runner in my opinion because players will want all the cake once they get a some form of payment. The younger generations will simply say I'm generating all the cash and I want it all. Then the club scene becomes like the Irish Rugby club scene.

Then its end game. the association we have is gone forever and it ain't ever coming back.
There is too much training at county level anyway for what is a poor standard. In my view. You only have to look at the lack of the basics last weekend to see the low standard of football at present. But the GAA wasn't smart enough to stop the monster when it started.
So its probably inevitable but when it does start thats my involvement finished. I'd prefer to remember being part of something I consider special rather than partake in something I inherently don't believe in.
I'm sick of the high opinions some county players have of their individual talents despite being unable to kick the ball accurately with one foot never mind two. And they want to be paid for that?

How am I missing the point?  I say pay them, but do so in a structured semi professional manner which is controlled.  I know that the arguments will be that there will be player transfer etc etc but that has happened over the years anyway, albeit at a lower level. 

You are right though, the GAA has released the "monster" as you describe it so instead of saying well now what do we do to control this you're happy enough to throw the head up and walk away.  You talk about county players with a high opinion of themselves, to be honest, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself if you think that that is the way to deal with the issue.  I used to think that it shouldn't happen but the more I see of it the more I realise that if it is not addressed properly and the players engaged fully with then there will be a major fcuk up.  There is far too much backward thinking in the administrators who are more concerned with tinkering with the rules of the game than looking at the overall organisation and structures.  Until this attitude is changed the games will rumble on and on not really evolving. 

I believe that there should be a bit of foresight in how the whole system is to develop over the next 20 years, and the issue of payment will be part of that as will the restructuring of the competitions.

Abu Dhabi - 29 April 2020

Sponsors Goldman Sachs confirmed today that there will be no relegation from the 4 team GPA Premiership in the coming season, due to start in September to coincide with the Champions League timetable.  This will please the Cork Red Sox who recently announced the signing of Sean Og Cavanagh and Peader Og Canavan from rivals Tryone Red Hands.  Dub Blue Stars and Kerry Kerrygolds the other teams that make up the Premiership are said to be content with the decision.

When asked what this meant for the footballers of Longford the GAA President Sir Fred Goodwin said "f**k them, nobody wants losers about the place but we may consider opening a place for Bahrain St Abdullah's next year."

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 29, 2010, 12:56:09 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on April 29, 2010, 12:42:10 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 29, 2010, 12:14:27 PM

Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2010, 11:29:48 AM
It's hardly surprising that a lot of players would like to be paid. I'd like to be paid for playing tennis as badly as I do. But that doesn't mean it would be the right decision for Tennis Ireland to start paying people like me (even though I entertain countless dozens of people with the way I play).

That would be great fun to watch, you and I must meet in Carrigaline for a game before I go!  But seriously, the difference between your ananlogy and Indiana's is that Tennis Ireland and the Irish Rowing Association will not generate millions per annum on the back of the sports, the GAA will generate that amount of money with inter county squads, as will associated companies like O'Neill's and the various different sponsors.  While it is right to ensure that players are looked after, is that really enough to compensate them for what they do.  Of course it is an honour to play for your county but you have to work hard to get there.  It is an honour for Brian O'Driscoll to captain his country to a Grand Slam but did he do it just for the honour?  Bullshit, he is good at what he does and gets handsomly rewarded.

The commitments of the current inter county player, and for that matter a player on a top club side, have changed dramtically in the least 15 years.  When this question comes up on the board I often wonder how many of the nay sayers have played at a decent level to understand the commitment that is required and the abuse on your body that this involves?  I know AZ has played at a decent level but that was before the way things are done now.  I know 1 or 2 others do so at the minute and they are of the opinion that more money should be fed back to the players.  Full pay for play is unsustainable but a structured payment system backed by the sponsors and a central body should be implemented.  This should incorporate things like a basic wage, fringe benefits to include gym membership, health care cover(to continue after they retire) and other individual bonuses like sponsored cars etc.  So long as it is carefully monitored and a proper structure put in place I think it would work.

I am well aware of the requirements today- I don't think I need to put the teams I was fortunate to play for and coach as a justification for my opinion. And the point you're missing is you can't get a little bit pregnant.
Same way you can't pay players a little bit. You either do it or you don't. And when you start you can't stop. What you're proposing is a non runner in my opinion because players will want all the cake once they get a some form of payment. The younger generations will simply say I'm generating all the cash and I want it all. Then the club scene becomes like the Irish Rugby club scene.

Then its end game. the association we have is gone forever and it ain't ever coming back.
There is too much training at county level anyway for what is a poor standard. In my view. You only have to look at the lack of the basics last weekend to see the low standard of football at present. But the GAA wasn't smart enough to stop the monster when it started.
So its probably inevitable but when it does start thats my involvement finished. I'd prefer to remember being part of something I consider special rather than partake in something I inherently don't believe in.
I'm sick of the high opinions some county players have of their individual talents despite being unable to kick the ball accurately with one foot never mind two. And they want to be paid for that?

How am I missing the point?  I say pay them, but do so in a structured semi professional manner which is controlled.  I know that the arguments will be that there will be player transfer etc etc but that has happened over the years anyway, albeit at a lower level. 

You are right though, the GAA has released the "monster" as you describe it so instead of saying well now what do we do to control this you're happy enough to throw the head up and walk away.  You talk about county players with a high opinion of themselves, to be honest, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself if you think that that is the way to deal with the issue.  I used to think that it shouldn't happen but the more I see of it the more I realise that if it is not addressed properly and the players engaged fully with then there will be a major fcuk up.  There is far too much backward thinking in the administrators who are more concerned with tinkering with the rules of the game than looking at the overall organisation and structures.  Until this attitude is changed the games will rumble on and on not really evolving. 

I believe that there should be a bit of foresight in how the whole system is to develop over the next 20 years, and the issue of payment will be part of that as will the restructuring of the competitions.

You can't control professional players BC. Just look at every other code in the world. I think people are incredibly naive to think players won't want all the cake. Its basic human nature.

Quote

You can't control professional players BC. Just look at every other code in the world. I think people are incredibly naive to think players won't want all the cake. Its basic human nature.

I know what you mean, I just don't think tehre will be the money available to the counties to make it a huge issue.  It is a parochial game and you won't have multi nationals pumping money into it.  There will be finite amounts of money available and consequently there won't be the same issuea as have been seen in rugby for instance.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 29, 2010, 01:50:30 PM

Quote

You can't control professional players BC. Just look at every other code in the world. I think people are incredibly naive to think players won't want all the cake. Its basic human nature.

I know what you mean, I just don't think tehre will be the money available to the counties to make it a huge issue.  It is a parochial game and you won't have multi nationals pumping money into it.  There will be finite amounts of money available and consequently there won't be the same issuea as have been seen in rugby for instance.

The players out there won't give a shite. They'll feel they should be getting in gate receipts. This is coming sooner rather than later and when it does its the end. Might talke 10 years but its on its way.

Soon Ireland won't be big enough to run its own banks.  How anyone thinks GAA can go semi pro is beyond me. The League of Ireland would be a fate worse than death for the great sports we have today.

I think there would be some clear advantages to going professional, especially for the club game but, as most have poited out, we can't afford it and there the story starts and ends. Sean Og is entitled to his opinion and entitled to express it, however, the reality of a professional GAA would falter on the small print. I believe that we must look after our players as best we can and should invest in them in terms of education and career development etc. and I welcome Sean Og's honesty and the opportunity that it affords us all to debate and rationalize the merits or otherwise of various courses of action. It is a good thing to have this out in the open and Sean Og and anyone who supports his view should be challenged to offer detailed plans on how we could afford it. If they can show us that we can afford it and that it would benefit the GAA as a whole then I would have no problem supporting it. I think none of us should be pro- or anti-professionalism and instead, we should evalute this and other issues on what is actually beneficial for the GAA going forward.

Love of the jersey would soon be a thing of the past!
How many more IC transfers would there be?

Quote from: drici on April 29, 2010, 10:50:56 AM
Find it highly unlikely that any of these 'quotes' were in the magazine Foinse.

Translated quote is still a quote.

QuoteHow many more IC transfers would there be?

Precisely none.

The GAA could not support semi-professionalism across 32 teams. The money isn't there.

If the game goes semi-pro, it would have to be on an elite team basis to support itself, which would in turn mean freedom of contract to move between teams.

In which case the semi-pro game would be doomed, as it would need its own facilities and stadiums, and its own fanbase. And I couldn't tell the GPA enough times that as each year more people turn up to watch Down's second team playing in the McKenna Cup than watch Kerry play in the 1st round of the Championship, there is more than a strong indicator that GAA people follow their team, not its players.

Quote from: Logan on April 29, 2010, 02:59:11 PM
Love of the jersey would soon be a thing of the past!
How many more IC transfers would there be?

I think this could be controlled Logan especially if everyone was centrally contracted to the GAA as opposed to being contracted to Armagh or Wexford for example. Wahtever about a professional GAA I do strongly believe that we need to look at the whole structure of our competitive year and the demands (or lack) that are being placed on our players.

Here are just some of teh glaring issues at play with our season:

The joke that is our league, which constitutes over 60% of the competitive games for most counties.

No proper pre-season for IC

No proper off season and the one we do have is enforced a month after all games are finished and two months after all but two counties are finished, and tw0 weeks befor the season starts, I mean what the hell is October if not the off-season?

The timing of the U21 IC championships, the hurling in particular is a disgrace.

The fact that our best players are being asked to play for up to 10 teams simultaneously while our average players are hardly getting games at all. If your 17 and good enough for your senior team then you shouldn't be playing minor or U21, we can't have it every way.

That's just a few glaring issues but there are many more unfortunately.

Quote from: thewobbler on April 29, 2010, 03:06:58 PM

QuoteHow many more IC transfers would there be?

Precisely none.

The GAA could not support semi-professionalism across 32 teams. The money isn't there.

If the game goes semi-pro, it would have to be on an elite team basis to support itself, which would in turn mean freedom of contract to move between teams.

In which case the semi-pro game would be doomed, as it would need its own facilities and stadiums, and its own fanbase. And I couldn't tell the GPA enough times that as each year more people turn up to watch Down's second team playing in the McKenna Cup than watch Kerry play in the 1st round of the Championship, there is more than a strong indicator that GAA people follow their team, not its players.

You couldn't replicate the mental anguish of County Mayo in a professional context. Even in the darkest days in division 3 Man. city never got near it.   

Quote from: thewobbler on April 29, 2010, 03:06:58 PM

QuoteHow many more IC transfers would there be?

Precisely none.

The GAA could not support semi-professionalism across 32 teams. The money isn't there.

If the game goes semi-pro, it would have to be on an elite team basis to support itself, which would in turn mean freedom of contract to move between teams.

In which case the semi-pro game would be doomed, as it would need its own facilities and stadiums, and its own fanbase. And I couldn't tell the GPA enough times that as each year more people turn up to watch Down's second team playing in the McKenna Cup than watch Kerry play in the 1st round of the Championship, there is more than a strong indicator that GAA people follow their team, not its players.

There would if it went professional.
Players would want to move to the best club to get paid more for more appearances.

Quote from: Zulu on April 29, 2010, 03:14:23 PM

Quote from: Logan on April 29, 2010, 02:59:11 PM
Love of the jersey would soon be a thing of the past!
How many more IC transfers would there be?

I think this could be controlled Logan especially if everyone was centrally contracted to the GAA as opposed to being contracted to Armagh or Wexford for example. Wahtever about a professional GAA I do strongly believe that we need to look at the whole structure of our competitive year and the demands (or lack) that are being placed on our players.

Here are just some of teh glaring issues at play with our season:

The joke that is our league, which constitutes over 60% of the competitive games for most counties.

No proper pre-season for IC

No proper off season and the one we do have is enforced a month after all games are finished and two months after all but two counties are finished, and tw0 weeks befor the season starts, I mean what the hell is October if not the off-season?

The timing of the U21 IC championships, the hurling in particular is a disgrace.

The fact that our best players are being asked to play for up to 10 teams simultaneously while our average players are hardly getting games at all. If your 17 and good enough for your senior team then you shouldn't be playing minor or U21, we can't have it every way.

That's just a few glaring issues but there are many more unfortunately.

Agree with some of that.
But central contracts won't work, they are only in rugby to manage the players for the international basis.
Professionalism will mean counties will be able to pay money - there is no way a 'wealthier' county won't pay more (above or below the table) to get the best players.

But as was pointed out before ... it's like arguing about the length of a unicorns horn.
It's never going to happen.
We can't support it.

Quote from: Zulu on April 29, 2010, 02:52:43 PM
I think there would be some clear advantages to going professional, especially for the club game but, as most have poited out, we can't afford it and there the story starts and ends. Sean Og is entitled to his opinion and entitled to express it, however, the reality of a professional GAA would falter on the small print. I believe that we must look after our players as best we can and should invest in them in terms of education and career development etc. and I welcome Sean Og's honesty and the opportunity that it affords us all to debate and rationalize the merits or otherwise of various courses of action. It is a good thing to have this out in the open and Sean Og and anyone who supports his view should be challenged to offer detailed plans on how we could afford it. If they can show us that we can afford it and that it would benefit the GAA as a whole then I would have no problem supporting it. I think none of us should be pro- or anti-professionalism and instead, we should evalute this and other issues on what is actually beneficial for the GAA going forward.

Could I challenge you to outline what these clear advantages are Zulu when balanced against the negative outcomes? This notion that clubs up and down the land will be happy developing talented players and then kissing them goodbye before enjoying the game being played by those not quite good enough to get paid is cloud cuckoo stuff from my perspective. It's pride in the parish or nothing as far as I'm concerned. Personally I'm not involved in the GAA to get players to the point where they can get paid.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on April 29, 2010, 10:35:58 AM
No surprise this one. At least he is honest about his agenda

Honest if not realistic...

it would never work - one question if the GAA ever went pay for play, how the grass roots volunteers, which run the GAA from the bottom up, continue?

Quote from: Celt_Man on April 29, 2010, 04:05:50 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on April 29, 2010, 10:35:58 AM
No surprise this one. At least he is honest about his agenda

Honest if not realistic...

it would never work - one question if the GAA ever went pay for play, how the grass roots volunteers, which run the GAA from the bottom up, continue?

As we know, this is all at least for the near future fantasty,but
If GAA went pay for play,You would be looking at an AFL type structure for the IC teams,whereby
the professional GAA would be seperate organisation,with a ruling body,
Whereas the club game would be like a feeder league(the best players would get drafted/bought??? by the professional teams and would then cease to play with their club.
The club game would probably be ruled over by a seperate elected body,although the GAA central council itself i suppose could oversee the running of the entire code,i suppose.

Quote from: theskull1 on April 29, 2010, 04:00:28 PM

Quote from: Zulu on April 29, 2010, 02:52:43 PM
I think there would be some clear advantages to going professional, especially for the club game but, as most have poited out, we can't afford it and there the story starts and ends. Sean Og is entitled to his opinion and entitled to express it, however, the reality of a professional GAA would falter on the small print. I believe that we must look after our players as best we can and should invest in them in terms of education and career development etc. and I welcome Sean Og's honesty and the opportunity that it affords us all to debate and rationalize the merits or otherwise of various courses of action. It is a good thing to have this out in the open and Sean Og and anyone who supports his view should be challenged to offer detailed plans on how we could afford it. If they can show us that we can afford it and that it would benefit the GAA as a whole then I would have no problem supporting it. I think none of us should be pro- or anti-professionalism and instead, we should evalute this and other issues on what is actually beneficial for the GAA going forward.

Could I challenge you to outline what these clear advantages are Zulu when balanced against the negative outcomes? This notion that clubs up and down the land will be happy developing talented players and then kissing them goodbye before enjoying the game being played by those not quite good enough to get paid is cloud cuckoo stuff from my perspective. It's pride in the parish or nothing as far as I'm concerned. Personally I'm not involved in the GAA to get players to the point where they can get paid.

Every sport in the world is run on the basis that many volunteers put hours of unpaid work and the best of those players eventually go off and play for teams that can offer a better standard. It isn't even uncommon for that to happen in the GAA as it is. Anyway many clubs don't see their IC men from one end of the year to the other bar championship games so I don't think people would walk away from the GAA if IC players only played IC. I'm sure many clubs could do with a cash windfall from an IC team 'signing up' their best player and with all the best players playing IC the playing field would still be even enough. I can only speak for myself but I'm not involved to produce players for either my club or county, I get involved because I want to be part of the games as a coach or player and in time administrator.

As for the advantages to the clubs? Well the biggest and most obvious is that we could organise club competitions  and run them in an orderly fashion. A club scene where club games aren't played for most of the summer isn't a club scene at all. I don't equate being a club GAA man with wanting your IC players playing club as well as IC, I equate it with wanting whats best for the club players and there is a strong argument that having a level for the very best and a level for the rest is no bad thing.

I can only talk from my own experiences but I've coached a number of teams in Ireland and I'm currently coaching a team in Britian. Although many of the same problems exist, in many ways, it is far more enjoyable coaching a team in Britian than it is in Ireland. And this is because I don't have to worry that my 6 or 7 best players are hardly ever at training because they are with one county team or another or that we don't know when we are playing because it will depend on how all the county teams get on in the early rounds. Over here I, and my players, know when we are playing for the next 3 months at home I didn't when our first game was let alone anything after that.

Like everything there are pros and cons but we shouldn't simply look at the negatives of everything when there are also major advantages.

Zulu - where do you think the clubs would get their funds to survive in the professional age? Hint - look at Irish club rugby post professionalism. Are you sure that massive falls in attendances and income is a "clear advantage" of professionalism?

Hardy, I don't know what it is like in Meath but I generally played my club football and hurling infront of less than 200 - 400 people, and it was often far less than that. I don't for a moment think that a professional GAA is likely in the next 100 years but if it did occur and counties had to compensate clubs for their players I'd imagine €100K for 2 or 3 players would be far more than clubs would get through their county championships over a 3 or 4 year period.

Professionalism would do to the GAA wht its done to rugby. Twould be one way to get the inter pro's going again as I doubt we would be able to sustain squads of 24-30 for any more than 4-5 pro teams in the country. The All Ireland Rugby league was massive in Ireland before the pro set up - where is it now?

The AIL was never massive in Ireland and unlike rugby we are asking players to play both IC and club on a regular basis, therefore club players are sitting around waiting for players who already have a packed season to come back and play with them. Professionalism isn't going to happen but we should be thinking a bit more throughly about the IC v club situation as the club season is a complete joke in many counties.

Sean Og probably declared this too soon for the hierarchy in the GPA but give it time and more and more will declare their their real intentions for intercounty players. so be it... I think it is inevitable too but thankfully have seen many many years when this wasn't an issue for players... ie: pay for play     

Nothing like a good oul conspiracy theory fox  ;)
I read of an interview with Mick O'Connell ( pre 2002 player from Kerry) where the interviewer asked him( expecting a resounding NOOOO)  would he have liked if the GAA was professional to which he replied "of course I would. Standards  would have risen as players could devote all their time to the game "
Like Seán óg I would like to get paid for doing something I happen to like doing.
Professionalism would be totally unsustainable for a one country sport especially with a target population of around 4 million.
The most that will happen will be "match day expenses" for I.C players in the bigger Championship games with the sponsors picking up the tab.

QuoteI read of an interview with Mick O'Connell ( pre 2002 player from Kerry) where the interviewer asked him( expecting a resounding NOOOO)  would he have liked if the GAA was professional to which he replied "of course I would. Standards  would have risen as players could devote all their time to the game "

Would be interested to read that interview Rosfan - where did you read it. Sounds at odds with anything I ever heard Mick O'Connell say on the subject. Are you sure you are not mixing him up with the other Kerry Micko who would probably look for back pay if professionalsim ever came in!!!

Quote from: Zulu on April 29, 2010, 06:10:18 PM
The AIL was never massive in Ireland and unlike rugby we are asking players to play both IC and club on a regular basis, therefore club players are sitting around waiting for players who already have a packed season to come back and play with them. Professionalism isn't going to happen but we should be thinking a bit more throughly about the IC v club situation as the club season is a complete joke in many counties.

People lose all interest in watching club games with no county players so you get a respective drop in income come championship time. The chariman of one of the richest rugby clubs in the country is a neighbour of mine. And they are now financially broke. You are incorrect on the AIL. I went to AIL games at this club- often 8-9000 there. Its now a wasteground. More people go to watch our lowest grade junior football team playing championship then attend AIL games with this team now. 200 is the average attendence at an AIL Div 1 game now.

There's references to the hurling matches played in 1759 for 100 guineas, this is not a new thing at all.

I'm surprised at Sean Og coming out saying that in one way ... he is getting plenty of 'travel expenses' I'm sure for his many media appearances, Lynx ads, adidas and the like.

Not that I don't think fair play to the fella, but I'm sure some players are looking at him thinking - you're looking for professionalism? aren't you doing well enough at the minute?

i must be owed a fortune!!! playing 30 years and a manging also. think i'll have enough to retire soon

Quote from: INDIANA on April 29, 2010, 10:13:23 PM

Quote from: Zulu on April 29, 2010, 06:10:18 PM
The AIL was never massive in Ireland and unlike rugby we are asking players to play both IC and club on a regular basis, therefore club players are sitting around waiting for players who already have a packed season to come back and play with them. Professionalism isn't going to happen but we should be thinking a bit more throughly about the IC v club situation as the club season is a complete joke in many counties.

People lose all interest in watching club games with no county players so you get a respective drop in income come championship time. The chariman of one of the richest rugby clubs in the country is a neighbour of mine. And they are now financially broke. You are incorrect on the AIL. I went to AIL games at this club- often 8-9000 there. Its now a wasteground. More people go to watch our lowest grade junior football team playing championship then attend AIL games with this team now. 200 is the average attendence at an AIL Div 1 game now.

With respect Indiana, 8-9K attending some games didn't make it massive, you could have driven around a lot of Ireland without coming across a rugby supporter, let alone pitch 15 years ago. The pitch situation may not have improved much but the fan base has. Some AIL games had reasonable gates but the vast majority of the country barely new it was on, that isn't a massive sporting league.

As I pointed out already, there aren't good crowds going to club games as it is and even in Dublin which has 2 recent AI club champions don't get great crowds going so I don't think the club games provide a serious source of revenue to clubs and it is one which we could replace quite easily I would imagine.

The club scene isn't a money generator and it shouldn't be viewed as such, I'm sure there are many intermediate and senior club players who would prefer to play regular games in a well structured season, even if the crowds are smaller than what they have to put up with a present.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 29, 2010, 08:35:52 PM
Nothing like a good oul conspiracy theory fox  ;)
I read of an interview with Mick O'Connell ( pre 2002 player from Kerry) where the interviewer asked him( expecting a resounding NOOOO)  would he have liked if the GAA was professional to which he replied "of course I would. Standards  would have risen as players could devote all their time to the game "
Like Seán óg I would like to get paid for doing something I happen to like doing.
Professionalism would be totally unsustainable for a one country sport especially with a target population of around 4 million.
The most that will happen will be "match day expenses" for I.C players in the bigger Championship games with the sponsors picking up the tab.

Why would you like to be paid for a past-time? Is money everything these days? maybe it is...

Today's Irish Daily Mail :

"The GAA last night came under increasing pressure to consider paying players as two more inter -county players called for a controversial rethink. Kerry footballer Kieran Donaghy and Aisake O hAilpin have joined Aisake's brother Sean Og in calling for some form of professionalism in Gaelic games."

Quote from: Zulu on April 29, 2010, 10:30:22 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on April 29, 2010, 10:13:23 PM

Quote from: Zulu on April 29, 2010, 06:10:18 PM
The AIL was never massive in Ireland and unlike rugby we are asking players to play both IC and club on a regular basis, therefore club players are sitting around waiting for players who already have a packed season to come back and play with them. Professionalism isn't going to happen but we should be thinking a bit more throughly about the IC v club situation as the club season is a complete joke in many counties.

People lose all interest in watching club games with no county players so you get a respective drop in income come championship time. The chariman of one of the richest rugby clubs in the country is a neighbour of mine. And they are now financially broke. You are incorrect on the AIL. I went to AIL games at this club- often 8-9000 there. Its now a wasteground. More people go to watch our lowest grade junior football team playing championship then attend AIL games with this team now. 200 is the average attendence at an AIL Div 1 game now.

With respect Indiana, 8-9K attending some games didn't make it massive, you could have driven around a lot of Ireland without coming across a rugby supporter, let alone pitch 15 years ago. The pitch situation may not have improved much but the fan base has. Some AIL games had reasonable gates but the vast majority of the country barely new it was on, that isn't a massive sporting league.

As I pointed out already, there aren't good crowds going to club games as it is and even in Dublin which has 2 recent AI club champions don't get great crowds going so I don't think the club games provide a serious source of revenue to clubs and it is one which we could replace quite easily I would imagine.

The club scene isn't a money generator and it shouldn't be viewed as such, I'm sure there are many intermediate and senior club players who would prefer to play regular games in a well structured season, even if the crowds are smaller than what they have to put up with a present.

Zulu in the current climate club championship games provide a greater source of revenue for the DCB then you think. I'm not joking. As I said the GAA has allowed a monster that it cannoy now control develop.

Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 10:17:58 AM
Today's Irish Daily Mail :

"The GAA last night came under increasing pressure to consider paying players as two more inter -county players called for a controversial rethink. Kerry footballer Kieran Donaghy and Aisake O hAilpin have joined Aisake's brother Sean Og in calling for some form of professionalism in Gaelic games."

Tell them we had a Rethink and the answer is still "NO". If you don't like it then don't play the sport, I'm sick to the teeth of these greedy selfish Intercounty footballers and Hurlers. I'm playing senior Div 1 football and have done for the last 15 years, I'm manager for the reserve team and on our committee, I'm also on two other subcommittee's and the only thing i get out of the GAA is go and sell more tickets but i do it cause i love our game and the club. So when i hear about these IC men crying about money it sickens my bollix

Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 10:17:58 AM
Today's Irish Daily Mail :

"The GAA last night came under increasing pressure to consider paying players as two more inter -county players called for a controversial rethink. Kerry footballer Kieran Donaghy and Aisake O hAilpin have joined Aisake's brother Sean Og in calling for some form of professionalism in Gaelic games."

... and then there were three. Here we go... hell slap it up the GAA bosses who hadn't the balls to stand up to the GPA.   

Quote from: longrunsthefox on April 30, 2010, 11:45:43 AM

Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 10:17:58 AM
Today's Irish Daily Mail :

"The GAA last night came under increasing pressure to consider paying players as two more inter -county players called for a controversial rethink. Kerry footballer Kieran Donaghy and Aisake O hAilpin have joined Aisake's brother Sean Og in calling for some form of professionalism in Gaelic games."

... and then there were three. Here we go... hell slap it up the GAA who hadn't the balls to stand up to the GPA.   

The hole in the dyke appeared with the payment of managers. There's still no will to tackle the manager situation so it's no surprise others want their slice of the pie.

Quote from: passedit on April 30, 2010, 11:49:08 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on April 30, 2010, 11:45:43 AM

Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 10:17:58 AM
Today's Irish Daily Mail :

"The GAA last night came under increasing pressure to consider paying players as two more inter -county players called for a controversial rethink. Kerry footballer Kieran Donaghy and Aisake O hAilpin have joined Aisake's brother Sean Og in calling for some form of professionalism in Gaelic games."

... and then there were three. Here we go... hell slap it up the GAA who hadn't the balls to stand up to the GPA.   

The hole in the dyke appeared with the payment of managers. There's still no will to tackle the manager situation so it's no surprise others want their slice of the pie.

I agree but have you ever managed a team? Playing was so much easier.

What has to be stamped out is managers being paid by the training session and some of the fees some of them earn which are ridiculous- especially one of whom was on TV recently

I see people in my own club give hours at committee meetings, organising youth football, fund-raising, coaching kids and wouldn't dream of crying for money.  These boys are a disgrace and would be nobodies without the GAA and all the volunteers. They are well looked after and many of their jobs and status is through playing for their county. If they don't like it they should f** off. They won't though because they need their county football and hurling more than the GAA needs them. In Cork there were lads only too glad and proud to pull on the jersey when the hurlers, (Sean and Donal Ogs included  ::)) threw the dummy out of the pram.       

Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2010, 11:52:05 AM
I agree but have you ever managed a team? Playing was so much easier.

What has to be stamped out is managers being paid by the training session and some of the fees some of them earn which are ridiculous- especially one of whom was on TV recently

I have indeed Indiana, and no I didn't enjoy it as I was trying to play as well but combining both was less onerous than the current intercounty player's lot. When an IC player sees some chancer picking up €80 a session for some junior team it's only human nature to ask where's mine.

In my eyes the whole Intercounty scheme has exploded in last few years. Its no longer fun for anyone involved, its professional in all but name. I hate it to be honest.
The clubs are completely ignored. In Monaghan, our senior team didn't play a game until after the NFL and now they are playing Sunday-Wednesday-sunday with reserve games in between and county training on the other nights. This will happen for another few weeks until the end of May, when they'll be nothing for weeks.
This week the seniors played sunday, C's on Monday, B's on wednesday and Seniors again tonight with B's tomorrow night. The seniors where due to play again on Monday but it was pulled, not because they club player was been protected but because the county team want to play a challlenge on Sunday.
Players will pick up injuries, get fed up, don't know when championship is etc etc. All to suit a group of 24/30 elite players. And this is all for one or maybe 2/3 games a year  ???

If we introduce pay for play, the club will die. Once pay is introduced you are bound by employment legislation and thats a whole new can of worms. The GAA has already gone mad with court cases on recent years and this would take it to a whole new levels. County squads would have to protect there employees and that would mean that they belong to the county board and not the club. And thats a view on a very simplistic level.

In my eyes the GAA need to tackle the position of county football. Its shouldn't take 5 weeks to play the first round of the Ulster championship, 2 or 3 at the very most.

Quote from: passedit on April 30, 2010, 12:09:06 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2010, 11:52:05 AM
I agree but have you ever managed a team? Playing was so much easier.

What has to be stamped out is managers being paid by the training session and some of the fees some of them earn which are ridiculous- especially one of whom was on TV recently

I have indeed Indiana, and no I didn't enjoy it as I was trying to play as well but combining both was less onerous than the current intercounty player's lot. When an IC player sees some chancer picking up €80 a session for some junior team it's only human nature to ask where's mine.

In a few years that IC player will be that chancer  ;D

Quote from: bingobus on April 30, 2010, 12:10:29 PM
In my eyes the whole Intercounty scheme has exploded in last few years. Its no longer fun for anyone involved, its professional in all but name. I hate it to be honest.
The clubs are completely ignored. In Monaghan, our senior team didn't play a game until after the NFL and now they are playing Sunday-Wednesday-sunday with reserve games in between and county training on the other nights. This will happen for another few weeks until the end of May, when they'll be nothing for weeks.
This week the seniors played sunday, C's on Monday, B's on wednesday and Seniors again tonight with B's tomorrow night. The seniors where due to play again on Monday but it was pulled, not because they club player was been protected but because the county team want to play a challlenge on Sunday.
Players will pick up injuries, get fed up, don't know when championship is etc etc. All to suit a group of 24/30 elite players. And this is all for one or maybe 2/3 games a year  ???

If we introduce pay for play, the club will die. Once pay is introduced you are bound by employment legislation and thats a whole new can of worms. The GAA has already gone mad with court cases on recent years and this would take it to a whole new levels. County squads would have to protect there employees and that would mean that they belong to the county board and not the club. And thats a view on a very simplistic level.

In my eyes the GAA need to tackle the position of county football. Its shouldn't take 5 weeks to play the first round of the Ulster championship, 2 or 3 at the very most.

Why do you say professionalism will destroy the club when it appears clear that amateur GAA is destroying the clubs, this is what you said yourself about the current situation..

QuoteThe seniors where due to play again on Monday but it was pulled, not because they club player was been protected but because the county team want to play a challlenge on Sunday.
Players will pick up injuries, get fed up, don't know when championship is etc etc. All to suit a group of 24/30 elite players. And this is all for one or maybe 2/3 games a year  ???

IMO it can't get much worse than that. We all agree that we can't afford to pay palyers and retain the basic structure of IC GAA, i.e. the county teams. Therefore it isn't an issue worth worrying about, however what is worth considering is how we look after our IC players who do generate massive money for the whole association and provide a proper club ceason to the majority of our players. We must find that balance because tellin IC to f**k off if they're not happy is no solution at all.

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 12:20:15 PM

Quote from: bingobus on April 30, 2010, 12:10:29 PM
In my eyes the whole Intercounty scheme has exploded in last few years. Its no longer fun for anyone involved, its professional in all but name. I hate it to be honest.
The clubs are completely ignored. In Monaghan, our senior team didn't play a game until after the NFL and now they are playing Sunday-Wednesday-sunday with reserve games in between and county training on the other nights. This will happen for another few weeks until the end of May, when they'll be nothing for weeks.
This week the seniors played sunday, C's on Monday, B's on wednesday and Seniors again tonight with B's tomorrow night. The seniors where due to play again on Monday but it was pulled, not because they club player was been protected but because the county team want to play a challlenge on Sunday.
Players will pick up injuries, get fed up, don't know when championship is etc etc. All to suit a group of 24/30 elite players. And this is all for one or maybe 2/3 games a year  ???

If we introduce pay for play, the club will die. Once pay is introduced you are bound by employment legislation and thats a whole new can of worms. The GAA has already gone mad with court cases on recent years and this would take it to a whole new levels. County squads would have to protect there employees and that would mean that they belong to the county board and not the club. And thats a view on a very simplistic level.

In my eyes the GAA need to tackle the position of county football. Its shouldn't take 5 weeks to play the first round of the Ulster championship, 2 or 3 at the very most.

Why do you say professionalism will destroy the club when it appears clear that amateur GAA is destroying the clubs, this is what you said yourself about the current situation..

QuoteThe seniors where due to play again on Monday but it was pulled, not because they club player was been protected but because the county team want to play a challlenge on Sunday.
Players will pick up injuries, get fed up, don't know when championship is etc etc. All to suit a group of 24/30 elite players. And this is all for one or maybe 2/3 games a year  ???

IMO it can't get much worse than that. We all agree that we can't afford to pay palyers and retain the basic structure of IC GAA, i.e. the county teams. Therefore it isn't an issue worth worrying about, however what is worth considering is how we look after our IC players who do generate massive money for the whole association and provide a proper club ceason to the majority of our players. We must find that balance because tellin IC to f**k off if they're not happy is no solution at all.

There is no workable solution Zulu. One has to give and it will be the clubs. And the IC players know this and thats what I object too.
The clubs can't survive without the IC players and the IC players haven't the time to play with them and in some cases don't want to play for them.

So where the money is being created is where the players will go.

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 12:20:15 PM

Quote from: bingobus on April 30, 2010, 12:10:29 PM
In my eyes the whole Intercounty scheme has exploded in last few years. Its no longer fun for anyone involved, its professional in all but name. I hate it to be honest.
The clubs are completely ignored. In Monaghan, our senior team didn't play a game until after the NFL and now they are playing Sunday-Wednesday-sunday with reserve games in between and county training on the other nights. This will happen for another few weeks until the end of May, when they'll be nothing for weeks.
This week the seniors played sunday, C's on Monday, B's on wednesday and Seniors again tonight with B's tomorrow night. The seniors where due to play again on Monday but it was pulled, not because they club player was been protected but because the county team want to play a challlenge on Sunday.
Players will pick up injuries, get fed up, don't know when championship is etc etc. All to suit a group of 24/30 elite players. And this is all for one or maybe 2/3 games a year  ???

If we introduce pay for play, the club will die. Once pay is introduced you are bound by employment legislation and thats a whole new can of worms. The GAA has already gone mad with court cases on recent years and this would take it to a whole new levels. County squads would have to protect there employees and that would mean that they belong to the county board and not the club. And thats a view on a very simplistic level.

In my eyes the GAA need to tackle the position of county football. Its shouldn't take 5 weeks to play the first round of the Ulster championship, 2 or 3 at the very most.

Why do you say professionalism will destroy the club when it appears clear that amateur GAA is destroying the clubs, this is what you said yourself about the current situation..

Professionalism will take it to another level. In fact as someone said you'd have two organisations. Alot of clubs rely on there 1/2 real quality Intercounty players. If it goes professional then these clubs will struggle. The gaa club will become feeder clubs to county panels, development panels, etc. I could see the competitiveness going from clubs, they will get no reward from any players leaving and will just be left to struggle on. This may not happen as much in bigger countries where many clubs won't have any county players but in the majority of counties clubs will struggle to remain competitive.

I can already see the conflict between club and county teams growing at a huge rate. If it was the case that the county was elite, in affect, you'd drive a barrier between the two that may never come down. I could even see counties having an ameteur team and professional team competing in separate competitions.

The tail will not wag the dog!! It is simply not sustainable. Some inter county players seem to forget where it all began.....
at their local club with volunteer coaches etc.

Quotehere is no workable solution Zulu. One has to give and it will be the clubs. And the IC players know this and thats what I object too.

There's a workable solution to everything surely?

QuoteProfessionalism will take it to another level. In fact as someone said you'd have two organisations. Alot of clubs rely on there 1/2 real quality Intercounty players. If it goes professional then these clubs will struggle.

I think that what you're talking about there is not maintaining clubs but maintaining success and I don't see why they have to be connected. Anyway if a small club lost its two best players it would weaken the team but bigger clubs might lose 5 or 6 players and be no less weakened so the competitiveness of the club scene could remain.

If we look at soccer, there are loads of people playing club soccer and there are levels there for everyone, yet the best players go pro why couldn't our club games survive if 30 -50 players left to play at a higher level? 

The point I'm making has less to do with professionalism anyway because that isn't possible but I do think we need to look at solutions to the issues bingobus has highlighted and I can assure you it is a lot worse in other counties.

Our IC season needs to be restructured,
the provincial championships need to be binned,
the Railway cup should never see the light of day again,
restrictions should be put in placed on how many IC teams a player can play for,
dual players should be forced to choose by playing both codes on the same weekend,
the AI's should be finished by August,
and the league should be connected to the championship.

There are some radical enough proposals there but all of tehm should be implemented as quickly as possible IMO as we need to get our heads out of our asses and realize that we can't be all things to all men. Rugby and soccer are getting their acts topgether and will replace us as the main sport if we aren't careful. At the moment our IC season is a series of glorified challenge matches until July or even August and our club scene is put on hold to facilitate that farce, we have manged to make a bollocks of both them which is no small feat.

Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 10:17:58 AM
Today's Irish Daily Mail :

"The GAA last night came under increasing pressure to consider paying players as two more inter -county players called for a controversial rethink. Kerry footballer Kieran Donaghy and Aisake O hAilpin have joined Aisake's brother Sean Og in calling for some form of professionalism in Gaelic games."

That's like something Alan Partridge would come up with.

Zulu, I get what you saying but I think the IC players/CB forget how much they rely on the clubs for support. They majority go to IC matches because the club have players playing that they have the connection with. I know I wouldn't have missed in the past cause cause I had friends/flatmates/clubmates playing. Others go regardless of this.

But I think the direct connection and accessability between club and IC draws the majority of the crowd and generates the interest from an early age that lasts a lifetime. If this connection goes, so will the crowds imho.

Plus you would see the case where big club matches would be played directly in competition to IC matches, as the club player connection would be completely gone. Will the crowd follow there club team or go chasing the paid IC team?

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 01:00:44 PM

Quotehere is no workable solution Zulu. One has to give and it will be the clubs. And the IC players know this and thats what I object too.

There's a workable solution to everything surely?

QuoteProfessionalism will take it to another level. In fact as someone said you'd have two organisations. Alot of clubs rely on there 1/2 real quality Intercounty players. If it goes professional then these clubs will struggle.

I think that what you're talking about there is not maintaining clubs but maintaining success and I don't see why they have to be connected. Anyway if a small club lost its two best players it would weaken the team but bigger clubs might lose 5 or 6 players and be no less weakened so the competitiveness of the club scene could remain.

If we look at soccer, there are loads of people playing club soccer and there are levels there for everyone, yet the best players go pro why couldn't our club games survive if 30 -50 players left to play at a higher level? 

The point I'm making has less to do with professionalism anyway because that isn't possible but I do think we need to look at solutions to the issues bingobus has highlighted and I can assure you it is a lot worse in other counties.

Our IC season needs to be restructured,
the provincial championships need to be binned,
the Railway cup should never see the light of day again,
restrictions should be put in placed on how many IC teams a player can play for,
dual players should be forced to choose by playing both codes on the same weekend,
the AI's should be finished by August,
and the league should be connected to the championship.

There are some radical enough proposals there but all of tehm should be implemented as quickly as possible IMO as we need to get our heads out of our asses and realize that we can't be all things to all men. Rugby and soccer are getting their acts topgether and will replace us as the main sport if we aren't careful. At the moment our IC season is a series of glorified challenge matches until July or even August and our club scene is put on hold to facilitate that farce, we have manged to make a bollocks of both them which is no small feat.

But surly thats the point Zulu. If we look at the soccer they cant sustain a professional level here.  The few clubs in the Airtricity League are almost bankrupt except the ones that made money out of the property boom. Even the clubs in England which are getting 20 - 30K attendances every week are going bust.
How would we finance 32 IC teams here in Ireland, especially when some teams are only playing less than 10 games a year.

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 01:00:44 PM

Quotehere is no workable solution Zulu. One has to give and it will be the clubs. And the IC players know this and thats what I object too.

There's a workable solution to everything surely?

QuoteProfessionalism will take it to another level. In fact as someone said you'd have two organisations. Alot of clubs rely on there 1/2 real quality Intercounty players. If it goes professional then these clubs will struggle.

I think that what you're talking about there is not maintaining clubs but maintaining success and I don't see why they have to be connected. Anyway if a small club lost its two best players it would weaken the team but bigger clubs might lose 5 or 6 players and be no less weakened so the competitiveness of the club scene could remain.

If we look at soccer, there are loads of people playing club soccer and there are levels there for everyone, yet the best players go pro why couldn't our club games survive if 30 -50 players left to play at a higher level? 

The point I'm making has less to do with professionalism anyway because that isn't possible but I do think we need to look at solutions to the issues bingobus has highlighted and I can assure you it is a lot worse in other counties.

Our IC season needs to be restructured,
the provincial championships need to be binned,
the Railway cup should never see the light of day again,
restrictions should be put in placed on how many IC teams a player can play for,
dual players should be forced to choose by playing both codes on the same weekend,
the AI's should be finished by August,
and the league should be connected to the championship.

There are some radical enough proposals there but all of tehm should be implemented as quickly as possible IMO as we need to get our heads out of our asses and realize that we can't be all things to all men. Rugby and soccer are getting their acts topgether and will replace us as the main sport if we aren't careful. At the moment our IC season is a series of glorified challenge matches until July or even August and our club scene is put on hold to facilitate that farce, we have manged to make a bollocks of both them which is no small feat.

Some good points made there but it's the delivery and the solution to these that is in question.

What would you replace the provincial championships with and are you advocating that IC players only play for their county and let the club scene carry on without them ?

QuoteBut surly thats the point Zulu. If we look at the soccer they cant sustain a professional level here.  The few clubs in the Airtricity League are almost bankrupt except the ones that made money out of the property boom. Even the clubs in England which are getting 20 - 30K attendances every week are going bust.
How would we finance 32 IC teams here in Ireland, especially when some teams are only playing less than 10 games a year.

We can't IMO but we should debate this fully and not simply say we can't when we don't really know. The point I was making however was more in relation to lower level soccer which provides regular games to thousands of moderately talented soccer players. We should be able to do that as well but we don't and the main reason is the connection between IC and club. There could be massive advantages to having an expanded IC season that can be played seperate to the club scene and if we can afford to pay those lads then all the better, but I don't think we could. I'm not arguing for a professional GAA and I am not in favor of it but I am not against it either.

QuoteZulu, I get what you saying but I think the IC players/CB forget how much they rely on the clubs for support. They majority go to IC matches because the club have players playing that they have the connection with. I know I wouldn't have missed in the past cause cause I had friends/flatmates/clubmates playing. Others go regardless of this.

But I think the direct connection and accessability between club and IC draws the majority of the crowd and generates the interest from an early age that lasts a lifetime. If this connection goes, so will the crowds imho.

Plus you would see the case where big club matches would be played directly in competition to IC matches, as the club player connection would be completely gone. Will the crowd follow there club team or go chasing the paid IC team?

Well I think there would still be a connection in the way that lads would like to see a young player from their own club do well at the highest level, though I accept that the bond wouldn't be as great and may weaken as the years pass. However, there are other ways it could benefit both club and county, for example part of the contract for professional players would include some coaching in the schools and back with their own clubs. In addition, in terms of retaining players if you could get paid for it then lads might continue to play for thier clubs in teh hope that they might get selected.

As for supporting both club and county, well I think that county games can be played Friday, Saturday or Sunday (day or evening) and the clubs could play their games on the evenings or days when the county isn't playing and so aviod a clash.

And this is the point I'd make, we re too quick to find faults with things in the GAA and not half as egar to find solutions. I'm not pro- or anti-professionalism, I'm not pro- or anti-Monaghan/Armagh/Mayo/Dublin/Cork/etc. GAA, what I want is a progressive GAA that will be stronger nationally and locally in 100 years than it is now. If that means seperating club and county and going professional then I'm all for it, if it means the exact opposite then I'm all for that too.

Everything should be on the table and we should debate these things and be willing to question everything in the pursuit of the best way forward because what we've before won't necessarily work in the very differnet modern Ireland.

Quote

QuoteSome good points made there but it's the delivery and the solution to these that is in question.

What would you replace the provincial championships with and are you advocating that IC players only play for their county and let the club scene carry on without them ?

On the provincial championships, I'd get rid of them and link the league and championship. You get seeded on the basis of your league performance and play the championship as a all Irealnd pure knockout competition. Start the league in April and finish in May and then play the championship in June, July and August. This gives a 3 month pre-season to prepare the players properly for the league, a structured season, regular games for all IC players and a realistic chance of silverware for 90% of teams (their league). The first two rounds of the championship is palyed on the basis of seedings but form QF onwards it is open draw, this gives us back the do or die element of the championship and guarantees more novel pairings, though we are still bound to get a fair share of local match ups.

With most counties out of the championship by mid July clubs will have 2 weeks of July, all of August, September and October to get their champiionships played before winter starts to set in.

As for the IC players playing only IC well yes in a professional GAA most certainly, in the above scenario IC players should still be able to play with their clubs but I think we have to look at that as well because having a fractured, stop, start club championship to accomodate IC players isn't being pro-club IMO.

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 02:35:45 PM

QuoteBut surly thats the point Zulu. If we look at the soccer they cant sustain a professional level here.  The few clubs in the Airtricity League are almost bankrupt except the ones that made money out of the property boom. Even the clubs in England which are getting 20 - 30K attendances every week are going bust.
How would we finance 32 IC teams here in Ireland, especially when some teams are only playing less than 10 games a year.

We can't IMO but we should debate this fully and not simply say we can't when we don't really know. The point I was making however was more in relation to lower level soccer which provides regular games to thousands of moderately talented soccer players. We should be able to do that as well but we don't and the main reason is the connection between IC and club. There could be massive advantages to having an expanded IC season that can be played seperate to the club scene and if we can afford to pay those lads then all the better, but I don't think we could. I'm not arguing for a professional GAA and I am not in favor of it but I am not against it either.

QuoteZulu, I get what you saying but I think the IC players/CB forget how much they rely on the clubs for support. They majority go to IC matches because the club have players playing that they have the connection with. I know I wouldn't have missed in the past cause cause I had friends/flatmates/clubmates playing. Others go regardless of this.

But I think the direct connection and accessability between club and IC draws the majority of the crowd and generates the interest from an early age that lasts a lifetime. If this connection goes, so will the crowds imho.

Plus you would see the case where big club matches would be played directly in competition to IC matches, as the club player connection would be completely gone. Will the crowd follow there club team or go chasing the paid IC team?

Well I think there would still be a connection in the way that lads would like to see a young player from their own club do well at the highest level, though I accept that the bond wouldn't be as great and may weaken as the years pass. However, there are other ways it could benefit both club and county, for example part of the contract for professional players would include some coaching in the schools and back with their own clubs. In addition, in terms of retaining players if you could get paid for it then lads might continue to play for thier clubs in teh hope that they might get selected.

As for supporting both club and county, well I think that county games can be played Friday, Saturday or Sunday (day or evening) and the clubs could play their games on the evenings or days when the county isn't playing and so aviod a clash.

And this is the point I'd make, we re too quick to find faults with things in the GAA and not half as egar to find solutions. I'm not pro- or anti-professionalism, I'm not pro- or anti-Monaghan/Armagh/Mayo/Dublin/Cork/etc. GAA, what I want is a progressive GAA that will be stronger nationally and locally in 100 years than it is now. If that means seperating club and county and going professional then I'm all for it, if it means the exact opposite then I'm all for that too.

Everything should be on the table and we should debate these things and be willing to question everything in the pursuit of the best way forward because what we've before won't necessarily work in the very differnet modern Ireland.

Quote

There is no way a club structure without IC players will work -none. I've seen the numbers at AIL plummet to near extinction because of it. The LOI is insolvent. Every professional structure in this country has literlally been unworkable. Rugby has 2 and a half professional teams despite being awash with money.

Good example. Last Wednesday night Vincents played Na Fianna in the SFL with all county players playing. PLace was packed. Couldn't get into Mobhi Road. Na Fianna got a huge crowd in the bar afterwards.
The same fixture took place in Vincents last year during the summer with no county players. Barely 50 people there. As I said the club scene will die a sorry death without them.

The hard fact is the GAA are breaching no contracts. Every county player gets involved in full knowledge of the term and conditions. If they don't like the T&C they are quite within their rights to walk away and let someone else fill their place.

It's dying a death as it is Indiana, you seem to be equating the health of the club scene with crowds, I on the other hand equate with playing numbers and a good structure. My playing days are coming to an end but I know I'd prefer to play and train with 25 other lads on a regular basis with games set in stone (more or less) than training with 14 lads for a game some time in the future which is as of yet unfixed and could be cancelled a week before it if the county team draw a championship game.

QuoteThe hard fact is the GAA are breaching no contracts. Every county player gets involved in full knowledge of the term and conditions. If they don't like the T&C they are quite within their rights to walk away and let someone else fill their place.

They might get someone to replace them but nobody will watch.

Ok ... My Solution for Professional GAA is go to a Super 12.

Split the Country into 12 (Ancient Domains) Teams and play a Hurling and Football Super League

Champions League style - Home and Away fixtures with Play offs, 22 Games and play-off's.



Big style, money, girls, cheer leaders and fireworks ... let's go for the money boys!
There's SO many benefits to it.

There'll be no grass roots, but who really cares about that?

I presume that's tongue in cheek Logan?

There's no way we could do both codes as professional sports and I see no reason why the GAA would be unique in world sport in that the lower levels would disintegrate if there was a professional tier.

Yes and no.

IF (and it's a big if) the GAA decided to go professional - that's the only way it could work.

The country could support 12 Football teams of 30 players (360 players) and 8 Hurling teams of 30 players (240) on a salary of 50k a year.

That would be 600 players on an average of 30k = 18 million.

Now a rookie would come in on 18k a year, a quality player might hit 50K plus all his endorsements - surely the GAA could manage that kind of money initially?

Imagine how the standard of play would improve and how the TV would have to improve to present it.
There would be alot more investment on all sides.


Grass roots would be a concern though - you'd have to rely more and more on the Government to support them - but not much more different than soccer or rugby are now.

Don't think a dual code professional system could work, the only way professionalism is possible would be to go with football and leave hurling as an amateur sport. If you're professional you'd have to maximise your propmotional opportunities and the one organization couldn't do it for both codes. In addition for a county like Limerick, they'd need to get in a good few non-Limerick men to make them competitive and I don't think Limerick folk would support that team with any real loyalty. Football might work with restrictions on the amount of transfers allowed into a county, not sure if that is possible but we'd have to retain the majority of squad members coming from each county itself for it to be a runner IMO. Unlike rugby they are competing against foreign teams so any reasonable Irish representation allows us to easily support them, I don't think a Tyrone team made up of primarily Armagh, Derry and Down men would easily generate support from any of those counties.

In saying that less teams means greater quality and bigger potential fan bases so you'd never know, which brings me back to my original point. We should discuss these things even if we all accept they are unlikely in the foreseeable future because we need to think about what the future might hold rather than simply saying x, y or z definitely won't work because none of us know what will or won't work for sure.

Quote from: Tatler Jack on April 29, 2010, 09:51:38 PM

QuoteI read of an interview with Mick O'Connell ( pre 2002 player from Kerry) where the interviewer asked him( expecting a resounding NOOOO)  would he have liked if the GAA was professional to which he replied "of course I would. Standards  would have risen as players could devote all their time to the game "

Would be interested to read that interview Rosfan - where did you read it. Sounds at odds with anything I ever heard Mick O'Connell say on the subject. Are you sure you are not mixing him up with the other Kerry Micko who would probably look for back pay if professionalsim ever came in!!!

Can't remeber what paper it was in ...about 10 years ago but it sticks in my mind because I would have expected him to say NOOOOO!!!! as well.
Mind you he was a perfectionist so it would be logical to expect him to be in favour of anything which would improve the quality of the game.

The other Micko would lose a fortune if professionalism ever came in ...imagine all the Tax/PRSI and Levies he's have to pay  ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 05:30:18 PM
Don't think a dual code professional system could work, the only way professionalism is possible would be to go with football and leave hurling as an amateur sport. If you're professional you'd have to maximise your propmotional opportunities and the one organization couldn't do it for both codes.

Dual code would work fine.
It would be more about how many Hurling teams you'd have.
You'll only really get 6 or max 8 big Super hurling teams in the country. I think you could support them financially.

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 05:30:18 PM
In addition for a county like Limerick, they'd need to get in a good few non-Limerick men to make them competitive and I don't think Limerick folk would support that team with any real loyalty.

You're thinking about counties - forget about that.
I'm talking about a Super league of 12 teams - big areas and huge populations
Think of bigger catchment areas emcompassing places like Meath&Westmeath. An area like that could easily support 30 players finanically.

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 05:30:18 PM
Football might work with restrictions on the amount of transfers allowed into a county, not sure if that is possible but we'd have to retain the majority of squad members coming from each county itself for it to be a runner IMO. Unlike rugby they are competing against foreign teams so any reasonable Irish representation allows us to easily support them, I don't think a Tyrone team made up of primarily Armagh, Derry and Down men would easily generate support from any of those counties.

Again, stop thinking county.
And even if you think about it, if it's marketed right people will support who they want to or like - especially once there is a transfer system in place and salary cap.

Once a year have the State of Origin game too - awesome strategy!

Quote from: Zulu on April 30, 2010, 05:30:18 PM
In saying that less teams means greater quality and bigger potential fan bases so you'd never know, which brings me back to my original point. We should discuss these things even if we all accept they are unlikely in the foreseeable future because we need to think about what the future might hold rather than simply saying x, y or z definitely won't work because none of us know what will or won't work for sure.

Exactly!

I do think it's possible on that scale and I think it would be great for the game at the top table.

Grass roots would be an issue still though.

well, if it ever comes in then I'll walk away from the sport. spent too many nights and weekends knocking my pan in for the club for some 'c**k' to want his share of the money. I've been out of pocket for years playing taking players and trips away with th club. never asked for a penny (well i did get a referee outfit) have never got any money refereeing as well!!

he has been trained and given a free 'professional' training plan sincethe started to play for their local clubs

i would not entertain them and not watch them play. 

IS there not a counter argument that players should pay to play!!  Think of all the enjoyment they get, faciltiies provided, training since they were kids and the chance to play in front of big crowds and in stadia like Croker. Outside of playing there are lots of other benefits - free drink, swooning women, etc.

Maybe we are looking at the pay for play the wrong way around!!

Quote from: Tatler Jack on April 30, 2010, 06:56:50 PM
IS there not a counter argument that players should pay to play!!  Think of all the enjoyment they get, faciltiies provided, training since they were kids and the chance to play in front of big crowds and in stadia like Croker. Outside of playing there are lots of other benefits - free drink, swooning women, etc.

Maybe we are looking at the pay for play the wrong way around!!

If you were mean you might say Mayo people have a strong case there!  ;D
(Sorry! Couldn't resist)

QuoteDual code would work fine.

I don't think it would because you're asking the same fans to support both 'teams', for example if you had an Ulster team in hurling and two Ulster teams in football, who support the Ulster hurling team that will be weak enough or populated by Kilkenny, tipp and Cork men? The same would be true of a Connacht or North Leinster hurling team, as would be the case down South in football, If Tipp were a stand alone hurling team why would many Tipp supporters follow a Munster or midlans football team? It is expensive and time consuming following a team, especially a professional one, which would have to play 15 to 20 games a year to fund itself, who is going to go to 40 games between hurling and football? Even just to get all the games in a calander year they'd have to play both codes on many weekends, so people wouldn't be able to get to both even if they wanted to.

Rugby works because they play foreign teams so we can all get behind them and they have a huge potential support base. Imagine the scenario if the IRFU were trying to promote both rugby league and union and were asking the same people to support both? It wouldn't work and nor would a professional football and hurling league/championship. The only possible way to have a professional GAA would be to do it for football and retain the county structures as much as possible. Allow 2-4 transfers and maybe have almagamation teams for the smaller midland counties. and even then I'm kind of shelving a few realities that would make that unrealistic also but it would at least give you a chance of retaining the fan base.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 30, 2010, 06:39:37 PM
well, if it ever comes in then I'll walk away from the sport. spent too many nights and weekends knocking my pan in for the club for some 'c**k' to want his share of the money. I've been out of pocket for years playing taking players and trips away with th club. never asked for a penny (well i did get a referee outfit) have never got any money refereeing as well!!

he has been trained and given a free 'professional' training plan sincethe started to play for their local clubs

i would not entertain them and not watch them play.

+1
People who make clubs tick would have nothing to do with it. And theres your house of cards right there.

Would you pay Antrim for that performance last week? a decent club team would have beaten them.

Is a bloody crazy situation that we have so called Gaels on here wanting to give inflated egos money to run around a pitch and play a sport which is a amateur sport.

no one makes any real money. if you want a job in Gaa then become a coach for the Gaa. teach school kids and work for the clubs to keep this tradition alive, but to claim that  your the one thats bring 80 thousand people to Croke, and you deserve money for that is ridiculous, that something that people have been doing for over 100 years!!!! and hopefully for an other 100 years

It's been said 100 times over by many, many people, that the GAA is professional in everything but name. Everytime this debate comes up there's a knocking of heads. Why? Because there will always be resistance because work at clubs is just as important as what happened in IC level and it would make the sport in ways more elite.

What the point of talking about going down this road is, I don't know. It will never happen, the money isn't there.

Do I want it to happen, GAA go pro?? No.
But I don't think that's what he meant. And this isn't the Premiership it could never be, and I'd hate it to be like that.

And to be fair, if you asked any GAA player, club to IC level, anyone, would they like to get paid for playing GAA, of course they would. It'd make their life a hell of a lot easier, you've so many IC and club players out of work. And I guarantee you that Sean Og is not alone out there in saying what he did, and fair play for Sean Og for his honesty.

I think what he meant and what people are taking he meant are two different things.
We're not talking about it turning into the Premiership. That'd be sickening to say the least, and it would never happen, and that's the truth of it.


Semi professional, would be something, like Donal Og said on the interview on the Late Late a few months ago, that the AI final between Tipp and KK, you wouldn't see a greater spectacle this year, you wouldn't find many people who'd have a problem giving 5%, about €3.75 of a ticket that cost €75, to an organisation that helps those players if they get into difficulty, medically, financially, psychologically, help with school, injuries etc. I'm not sure you'd have found many people in there that would have a problem with that.

Would ye?

Ya it's different to professional system, and getting paid for play, but the point stands. At the end of the day, just a simple question, taking out everything else, the clubs, the volunteer attitude, everything. Would people have a problem seeing a certain amount of gate money going to the players or a players association?


The GAA in many ways in outdated, a lot of things need to be changed, the treatment of the clubs, CBs, the way things are run in many counties, the underage set up, the schedules of the games. A lot of things. A lot of things need changing, but paying for play isn't one of those things, treatment of players needs to be looked at, I mean the lists go on and on, but not pay for play.

Don't pay them, don't make it pro, it'd take away from the GAA, what it is, what it stands for.

They wont and I don't think that's what he meant either, but I could be wrong, but it'd go a long way if the GAA worked out a way to treat everyone IC players and clubs included, a hell of a lot better. Make life just a little bit easier.

And while you've guys dedicating their lives to clubs and putting in so much time and hours and sacrifices into the club, the GAA wouldn't run without them, without the volunteers putting in the time they do the GAA couldn't function and I'm not questioning that for a second.

But the IC players weren't treated well for a long time, they were treated with very little to no respect by the GAA, and that needed to change and it has a bit, and for me while I wouldn't want to see pay for play, I wouldn't have a problem seeing a few bob go to the players, and because of that players like Eoin Cadogan or Joe Canning a little extra help with be it financial/medical/education/psychological help..etc.

I don't think many people would deny them that. If they did, well, it'd just show me a lot of people with a lot of biterness.

I remember there was a programme about Sean Og and the brothers a couple of years ago and he was always banging on about being stuck "in da benk" all week while the other two were in Australia as professional athletes.

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 30, 2010, 11:16:42 PM
Is a bloody crazy situation that we have so called Gaels on here wanting to give inflated egos money to run around a pitch and play a sport which is a amateur sport.

no one makes any real money. if you want a job in Gaa then become a coach for the Gaa. teach school kids and work for the clubs to keep this tradition alive, but to claim that  your the one thats bring 80 thousand people to Croke, and you deserve money for that is ridiculous, that something that people have been doing for over 100 years!!!! and hopefully for an other 100 years

Would you have a problem of, say €3.75 of a 75 euro ticket for the AI final going to a player who put in that type of performance?
Would you have a problem with €3.75 going to Henry Shefflin after playing like that in an AI final?

Quote from: Minder on April 30, 2010, 11:20:42 PM
I remember there was a programme about Sean Og and the brothers a couple of years ago and he was always banging on about being stuck "in da benk" all week while the other two were in Australia as professional athletes.

Would you not think of only if you were in his situation, but stuck "in da benk" all week, while 2 of your brothers were living it up in Australia as pro athletes.

Quote from: Reillers on April 30, 2010, 11:23:08 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 30, 2010, 11:16:42 PM
Is a bloody crazy situation that we have so called Gaels on here wanting to give inflated egos money to run around a pitch and play a sport which is a amateur sport.

no one makes any real money. if you want a job in Gaa then become a coach for the Gaa. teach school kids and work for the clubs to keep this tradition alive, but to claim that  your the one thats bring 80 thousand people to Croke, and you deserve money for that is ridiculous, that something that people have been doing for over 100 years!!!! and hopefully for an other 100 years

Would you have a problem of, say €3.75 of a 75 euro ticket for the AI final going to a player who put in that type of performance?
Would you have a problem with €3.75 going to Henry Shefflin after playing like that in an AI final?

Yep I would. Reward the elite Reillers. Forget about the poor sods in Carlow and these places. Then again thats the GPA and the Cork hurlers all over isn't it? At least if you're going to promote professionlism Donal at least do it properly.

Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2010, 11:26:20 PM

Quote from: Reillers on April 30, 2010, 11:23:08 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 30, 2010, 11:16:42 PM
Is a bloody crazy situation that we have so called Gaels on here wanting to give inflated egos money to run around a pitch and play a sport which is a amateur sport.

no one makes any real money. if you want a job in Gaa then become a coach for the Gaa. teach school kids and work for the clubs to keep this tradition alive, but to claim that  your the one thats bring 80 thousand people to Croke, and you deserve money for that is ridiculous, that something that people have been doing for over 100 years!!!! and hopefully for an other 100 years

Would you have a problem of, say €3.75 of a 75 euro ticket for the AI final going to a player who put in that type of performance?
Would you have a problem with €3.75 going to Henry Shefflin after playing like that in an AI final?

Yep I would. Reward the elite Reillers. Forget about the poor sods in Carlow and these places. Then again thats the GPA and the Cork hurlers all over isn't it? At least if you're going to promote professionlism Donal at least do it properly.

I said ignore everything else. Forget about all of that, would you have a problem seeing  about €4 of your money of that €75 ticket going towards the players or something that helped out the players, players that include IC players, Carlow included.
But like I said, it'd take a bitter person to deny them that.

I wouldn't go Reillers and I wouldn't watch it ont telly either

Forget everything else.....the GPA love to live in this intercounty bubble don't they

Quotewould you have a problem seeing  about €4 of your money of that €75 ticket going towards the players

I would Reillers because I don't support professionalism. But maybe you don't understand professionalism in the same way as you did not understand veto.

I have no problem in players being well treated as they mostly are but the day IC players are paid is the day I finish my association with the GAA - and I have been involved for well over 40 years.

Quote from: theskull1 on April 30, 2010, 11:40:59 PM
I wouldn't go Reillers and I wouldn't watch it ont telly either

Forget everything else.....the GPA love to live in this intercounty bubble don't they

I'd hate to see them being paid, but like would you really have a problem if about a couple of euro from the gate takings going to players or to a players association that helps players out when they need it.

But all these IC players, they are first and foremost, club players. And that's where their loyalties are. There are so many problems in the clubs up and down the country, I've seen them, I'm sure you have as well, there's very liitle you or me, or anyone else can do about it, what we think of how clubs are ran or treated or what money goes where, well you know it is irrelevant to the top officials in the GAA.

I'm not in favour of the players being paid, but I wouldn't have a problem with about €3 or so going towards the players who put in the work with the clubs and IC teams to get where they have and play to the level they do.
I just wouldn't have a problem if a few euros went to help out those players who need that help. I'd like it even more if they could widen their base to the club scene, which if I remember rightly, is something they want to do.

They are like I said clubs players first and always.
There are a lot of players out of work, a lot of them, and if they can be helped then that's great, and we'll need to figure out how to help the rest of them a long the way.
Would rather help some than none.

Quote from: Tatler Jack on April 30, 2010, 11:50:08 PM

Quotewould you have a problem seeing  about €4 of your money of that €75 ticket going towards the players

I would Reillers because I don't support professionalism. But maybe you don't understand professionalism in the same way as you did not understand veto.

I have no problem in players being well treated as they mostly are but the day IC players are paid is the day I finish my association with the GAA - and I have been involved for well over 40 years.

I wouldn't support professionalism either.
I understand pefectly what it is and what it involves. But I wouldn't have much of a problem if a few euro went to an association like it was planed for, that help players out when they needed it. I'm not saying a fuckin pay package each week. I'm saying that if a lad, lads in CIT/UCC who are playing IC hurling at senior and U21 level, playing with the college and with their club, and say that one of those lads got in financial difficulty while he was in college or got an injury or whatever, he could be helped out, and there would be money there to help him out.
It's not pay for play, no where near it, so probably irrelevant to what's being discussed in a way, but that's as much as I'd want to see of it.

Quote from: Reillers on April 30, 2010, 11:28:39 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2010, 11:26:20 PM

Quote from: Reillers on April 30, 2010, 11:23:08 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 30, 2010, 11:16:42 PM
Is a bloody crazy situation that we have so called Gaels on here wanting to give inflated egos money to run around a pitch and play a sport which is a amateur sport.

no one makes any real money. if you want a job in Gaa then become a coach for the Gaa. teach school kids and work for the clubs to keep this tradition alive, but to claim that  your the one thats bring 80 thousand people to Croke, and you deserve money for that is ridiculous, that something that people have been doing for over 100 years!!!! and hopefully for an other 100 years

Would you have a problem of, say €3.75 of a 75 euro ticket for the AI final going to a player who put in that type of performance?
Would you have a problem with €3.75 going to Henry Shefflin after playing like that in an AI final?

Yep I would. Reward the elite Reillers. Forget about the poor sods in Carlow and these places. Then again thats the GPA and the Cork hurlers all over isn't it? At least if you're going to promote professionlism Donal at least do it properly.

I said ignore everything else. Forget about all of that, would you have a problem seeing  about €4 of your money of that €75 ticket going towards the players or something that helped out the players, players that include IC players, Carlow included.
But like I said, it'd take a bitter person to deny them that.

It wouldn't. Are the players prepared to put the association into bankruptcy so they can be paid?

Quote from: INDIANA on May 01, 2010, 12:29:37 AM

Quote from: Reillers on April 30, 2010, 11:28:39 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2010, 11:26:20 PM

Quote from: Reillers on April 30, 2010, 11:23:08 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 30, 2010, 11:16:42 PM
Is a bloody crazy situation that we have so called Gaels on here wanting to give inflated egos money to run around a pitch and play a sport which is a amateur sport.

no one makes any real money. if you want a job in Gaa then become a coach for the Gaa. tea
ch school kids and work for the clubs to keep this tradition alive, but to claim that  your the one thats bring 80 thousand people to Croke, and you deserve money for that is ridiculous, that something that people have been doing for over 100 years!!!! and hopefully for an other 100 years

Would you have a problem of, say €3.75 of a 75 euro ticket for the AI final going to a player who put in that type of performance?
Would you have a problem with €3.75 going to Henry Shefflin after playing like that in an AI final?

Yep I would. Reward the elite Reillers. Forget about the poor sods in Carlow and these places. Then again thats the GPA and the Cork hurlers all over isn't it? At least if you're going to promote professionlism Donal at least do it properly.

I said ignore everything else. Forget about all of that, would you have a problem seeing  about €4 of your money of that €75 ticket going towards the players or something that helped out the players, players that include IC players, Carlow included.
But like I said, it'd take a bitter person to deny them that.

It wouldn't. Are the players prepared to put the association into bankruptcy so they can be paid?

I wonder if you read any of my posts, or if you just go through them and randomly pick a few words to rant at.
I said that no matter what anyone did or didn't want, pay for play wise, it would never happen because we would never be able to afford it.
And like I said, that €3.75 from a €75 ticket, that 5% to go towards helping players was the GPA's plan not so long ago. And that idea has nothing to do with paying the players. Just a helping hand if a player should need it.

And like I said, I'm not promoting it but I'd live with it. And it says a lot about people if they're that bitter that they'd resent giving about €3 of their ticked to a player like Henry Shefflin or a young player like Joe Canning, who it could help out a lot if it was needed.

reillers why dont you broaden the premise of your argument to include all dedicated administrators and coaches in clubs? What about a few quid for them as well...is there anyone else we'd need to think of?

This is a very Orwellian (1984) position youre putting forward

Quote from: theskull1 on May 01, 2010, 12:47:28 AM
reillers why dont you broaden the premise of your argument to include all dedicated administrators and coaches in clubs? What about a few quid for them as well...is there anyone else we'd need to think of?

This is a very Orwellian (1984) position youre putting forward

Sure that's it isn't it. Who's to say that the coaches don't put as much effort and time in and such as the playres, and why should the players get special treatment..etc. You can't please everyone all the time. And I just made that point above. There are so many people involved with the GAA, not just IC players, not just club players, or managers so many countless number of people who do as much work and who's work, in it's own right is just as important as the next. Who's to say who deserves what.

I remember listening to a radio interview back in the '80s when Offaly had just beaten Wexford and one of the Offaly players was being interviewed. (Can't recall the year but I do know the player and the opposition in the provincial final was to be Kilkenny.)
Anyway, he was asked a question about Offaly's training schedule as they prepared for the final. I don't recall his exact words but what he had to say went something like this:

We are taking it very seriously alright. We're going to train three times a week from here in and all the lads who take a drink have promised to lay off it until the Leinsters are over.

The interviewer passed no comment and I didn't come across any reference to it on radio or in the papers afterwards. The same goes for TV.  I think it's fair to say that the Offaly hurlers' preparations for a Leinster final seemed routine enough back then and that was in the fairly recent past.
Would the same training methods be used by any team, county or club, today?
Somehow, I doubt it very much!
Yet the demands on player's time and resources have increased exponentially in the interim. Members of all IC panels in the land forego any sort of a normal life for the greater part of a year; they can forget about socialising or taking the girl friend or missus and kids on holidays at a time that best suits them and are very likely to wind up very much out of pocket in the process.
There are a thousand and one issues involved here so I'm only highlighting the first few that come to mind. How many farmers or shift workers or self-employed individuals are currently members of any IC panel at present?
You can throw those who are on reduced working hours or who are unemployed into the mix and you still won't come up with a sizeable number.
I am not proposing any sort of fixed wages here and I don't think the disgruntled players are either. I'm just saying that their complaints be considered and some way found to redress their concerns. The problem isn't going to go away if we continue to pretend it doesn't exist. I'm thinking of the GPA here and the way it came into being because the players' concerns were being ignored.
Well, we're stuck with the GPA now, for better or worse, and it is here to stay.
Some sort of pay for play is going to follow in it's wake. What sort of arrangement is arrived at depends very much on the general GAA membership and the way they react to the players' requests. But they can't go on ignoring what their top performers are saying.
Otherwise, the GPA will have the last say one again.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 01, 2010, 01:02:00 PM
I remember listening to a radio interview back in the '80s when Offaly had just beaten Wexford and one of the Offaly players was being interviewed. (Can't recall the year but I do know the player and the opposition in the provincial final was to be Kilkenny.)
Anyway, he was asked a question about Offaly's training schedule as they prepared for the final. I don't recall his exact words but what he had to say went something like this:

We are taking it very seriously alright. We're going to train three times a week from here in and all the lads who take a drink have promised to lay off it until the Leinsters are over.

The interviewer passed no comment and I didn't come across any reference to it on radio or in the papers afterwards. The same goes for TV.  I think it's fair to say that the Offaly hurlers' preparations for a Leinster final seemed routine enough back then and that was in the fairly recent past.
Would the same training methods be used by any team, county or club, today?
Somehow, I doubt it very much!
Yet the demands on player's time and resources have increased exponentially in the interim. Members of all IC panels in the land forego any sort of a normal life for the greater part of a year; they can forget about socialising or taking the girl friend or missus and kids on holidays at a time that best suits them and are very likely to wind up very much out of pocket in the process.
There are a thousand and one issues involved here so I'm only highlighting the first few that come to mind. How many farmers or shift workers or self-employed individuals are currently members of any IC panel at present?
You can throw those who are on reduced working hours or who are unemployed into the mix and you still won't come up with a sizeable number.
I am not proposing any sort of fixed wages here and I don't think the disgruntled players are either. I'm just saying that their complaints be considered and some way found to redress their concerns. The problem isn't going to go away if we continue to pretend it doesn't exist. I'm thinking of the GPA here and the way it came into being because the players' concerns were being ignored.
Well, we're stuck with the GPA now, for better or worse, and it is here to stay.
Some sort of pay for play is going to follow in it's wake. What sort of arrangement is arrived at depends very much on the general GAA membership and the way they react to the players' requests. But they can't go on ignoring what their top performers are saying.Otherwise, the GPA will have the last say one again.

Top performers. Nail on head. Enough said. 2 OhAilpin brothers and the "STAR" who last time I seen him was burning the tyres round Fitzgerald Stadium in his sponsored car.

The so called top performers in the GAA are doing very well.

Why don't the journos talk to those who are not considered top performers ?.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 01, 2010, 01:02:00 PM
I remember listening to a radio interview back in the '80s when Offaly had just beaten Wexford and one of the Offaly players was being interviewed. (Can't recall the year but I do know the player and the opposition in the provincial final was to be Kilkenny.)
Anyway, he was asked a question about Offaly's training schedule as they prepared for the final. I don't recall his exact words but what he had to say went something like this:

We are taking it very seriously alright. We're going to train three times a week from here in and all the lads who take a drink have promised to lay off it until the Leinsters are over.

The interviewer passed no comment and I didn't come across any reference to it on radio or in the papers afterwards. The same goes for TV.  I think it's fair to say that the Offaly hurlers' preparations for a Leinster final seemed routine enough back then and that was in the fairly recent past.
Would the same training methods be used by any team, county or club, today?
Somehow, I doubt it very much!
Yet the demands on player's time and resources have increased exponentially in the interim. Members of all IC panels in the land forego any sort of a normal life for the greater part of a year; they can forget about socialising or taking the girl friend or missus and kids on holidays at a time that best suits them and are very likely to wind up very much out of pocket in the process.
There are a thousand and one issues involved here so I'm only highlighting the first few that come to mind. How many farmers or shift workers or self-employed individuals are currently members of any IC panel at present?
You can throw those who are on reduced working hours or who are unemployed into the mix and you still won't come up with a sizeable number.
I am not proposing any sort of fixed wages here and I don't think the disgruntled players are either. I'm just saying that their complaints be considered and some way found to redress their concerns. The problem isn't going to go away if we continue to pretend it doesn't exist. I'm thinking of the GPA here and the way it came into being because the players' concerns were being ignored.
Well, we're stuck with the GPA now, for better or worse, and it is here to stay.
Some sort of pay for play is going to follow in it's wake. What sort of arrangement is arrived at depends very much on the general GAA membership and the way they react to the players' requests. But they can't go on ignoring what their top performers are saying.
Otherwise, the GPA will have the last say one again.

Lar the problem is the star players like Sean og and Star and Co don't give a shite about those lower down the food chain. Thats the problem I have with it. They know a 32 county proposal isn't workable and are quite happy to carve up what we have now and re-hash it as some form of a bastardised Magners league. Longford, Carlow etc go into oblivion and we end up with something we don't want.
Believe me when I say this Lar that people on top inter county panels do very well. Its the poor sods playing for counties who have no chance and give up the better part of their lives for no reward is who I sympathise with. playing for the cork hurlers and dublin footballers Lar is no chore.
I really think Sean Og has some neck on him.

Quote from: INDIANA on May 01, 2010, 02:51:07 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 01, 2010, 01:02:00 PM
I remember listening to a radio interview back in the '80s when Offaly had just beaten Wexford and one of the Offaly players was being interviewed. (Can't recall the year but I do know the player and the opposition in the provincial final was to be Kilkenny.)
Anyway, he was asked a question about Offaly's training schedule as they prepared for the final. I don't recall his exact words but what he had to say went something like this:

We are taking it very seriously alright. We're going to train three times a week from here in and all the lads who take a drink have promised to lay off it until the Leinsters are over.

The interviewer passed no comment and I didn't come across any reference to it on radio or in the papers afterwards. The same goes for TV.  I think it's fair to say that the Offaly hurlers' preparations for a Leinster final seemed routine enough back then and that was in the fairly recent past.
Would the same training methods be used by any team, county or club, today?
Somehow, I doubt it very much!
Yet the demands on player's time and resources have increased exponentially in the interim. Members of all IC panels in the land forego any sort of a normal life for the greater part of a year; they can forget about socialising or taking the girl friend or missus and kids on holidays at a time that best suits them and are very likely to wind up very much out of pocket in the process.
There are a thousand and one issues involved here so I'm only highlighting the first few that come to mind. How many farmers or shift workers or self-employed individuals are currently members of any IC panel at present?
You can throw those who are on reduced working hours or who are unemployed into the mix and you still won't come up with a sizeable number.
I am not proposing any sort of fixed wages here and I don't think the disgruntled players are either. I'm just saying that their complaints be considered and some way found to redress their concerns. The problem isn't going to go away if we continue to pretend it doesn't exist. I'm thinking of the GPA here and the way it came into being because the players' concerns were being ignored.
Well, we're stuck with the GPA now, for better or worse, and it is here to stay.
Some sort of pay for play is going to follow in it's wake. What sort of arrangement is arrived at depends very much on the general GAA membership and the way they react to the players' requests. But they can't go on ignoring what their top performers are saying.
Otherwise, the GPA will have the last say one again.

Lar the problem is the star players like Sean og and Star and Co don't give a shite about those lower down the food chain. Thats the problem I have with it. They know a 32 county proposal isn't workable and are quite happy to carve up what we have now and re-hash it as some form of a bastardised Magners league. Longford, Carlow etc go into oblivion and we end up with something we don't want.
Believe me when I say this Lar that people on top inter county panels do very well. Its the poor sods playing for counties who have no chance and give up the better part of their lives for no reward is who I sympathise with. playing for the cork hurlers and dublin footballers Lar is no chore.
I really think Sean Og has some neck on him.

Making judgements with nothing to back it up is almost insulting and to say that the likes of Sean og basically only cares about himself not what's going on down in the lower leagues and such is out of line and completley based on your own imagination and your personal vendetta against Cork hurlers, when you know nothing about them, and to be fair, you couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to you having a go at Sean Og. Not like that matters.

If you think that the "top" IC players do very well for themselvse and are living an easy life, then you're living in a great world. The best of the best, Cannings and Shefflins of the country might get a car or so out of it, but those days are well and truely gone. And so what if they get a reward or two out of the work they do, but you resent that. I mean you think that what if Joe Canning is offered a pair of boots then a sponsorship from Adidas he should turn it down? Because of those poors sods who get no reward from playing IC.

There are countless numbers of players, IC included who are unemployed, including Cork players. Your witch hunt again the GPA and Cork hurlers yet again is based on your hate and nothing else. What do you think they get out of it, one might.

Oh get real would ya, where do you think we are the Premiership? You're agenda against the Cork hurlers and the GPA has gotten beyond tiring. Tell me, what times are you living in? Because last time I looked you'd countless IC players up and down the country, Cork included unemployed and living in the real world and feeling the stresses of the real world that everyone but you seems to be living in.

Tell me, what exactly makes their lives so easy?

I am not an inter-county player but I do play senior club, so as you can imagine I take my football very seriously.  I live and work in Dublin, but I am from the midlands.  I drive approx 300 miles per week solely for football training/matches, 8 months a year.  I don't get one cent in expenses.  My club could never afford to pay it nor would I look for it when I see the work that goes in by a few individuals (my father included) just to keep the club ticking over.  I do it, and take the financial hit, because I want to.  I am sure there are similar cases in almost every club in the country.  The inter-county lads in my club make a profit on their petrol expenses.  I don't begrudge them their expenses but when I hear the likes of Sean Og and Donaghy talking like that it sickens my hole.  They don't know how good they have it.

Very well said Shark. Sean Og hasn't a clue about the ethos of the GAA or more likely with all the fame, status and adulation he got from being in the GAA he has forgotten it. Now he thinks the GAA owes him something  :-\

Quote from: INDIANA on May 01, 2010, 02:51:07 PM

Lar the problem is the star players like Sean og and Star and Co don't give a shite about those lower down the food chain. Thats the problem I have with it. They know a 32 county proposal isn't workable and are quite happy to carve up what we have now and re-hash it as some form of a bastardised Magners league. Longford, Carlow etc go into oblivion and we end up with something we don't want.
Believe me when I say this Lar that people on top inter county panels do very well. Its the poor sods playing for counties who have no chance and give up the better part of their lives for no reward is who I sympathise with. playing for the cork hurlers and dublin footballers Lar is no chore.
I really think Sean Og has some neck on him.

I know what you are saying, Indy; I can go along with the lot of it.
That is why I'd like to see some pre-emptive action before the thing gets out of hand because it won't go away of its own accord. First you had the GPA, soon afterwards the expenses grants issue arose and now you have the pay for play plea which will morph into a request, before finally becoming a demand.
I think it's fair to say that in all cases the noise has come from the same quarter. A number of high-profile IC players from a number of the stronger counties.
Now, IC players as a body do have some very genuine concerns but I don't see membership the GPA being the best way to go about solving them.
The GPA is not a Gaelic players' association and it doesn't pretend to be one either.
It's an elitist pressure lobby –no more and no less and it's now become an integral part of the Association.
To me, it's going to cause problems from now on. It is a great pity that, right from the start, the initiative was left to those who pushed for such a body and it's now a semi-autonomous unit within the Association.
Remember the time the Government agreed in principle to provide funding for sporting and community-based concerns? When it came to the GAA's turn, the running was left to the GPA. It was always destined to go to them and those they represented. When they finally got it, as they were always going to, it came dressed up in the form of travel expenses.
The GAA showed as much initiative throughout the negotiations as Mayo, God help us, did last Sunday. ;D
Nickey & Co, thought it was a cute idea to stand aside and allow an outside agency, ie the Government, step in and pay money to a group of Association members for expenses incurred in their involvement with the said Association. Furthermore, they did this in the full knowledge that this money had been secured through the efforts of a body, the GPA, which they did not recognise. So, while they expenses were to be assessed and paid through county boards, the GAA stepped aside.
But you can't half dig a hole. The Government has indeed fallen on hard times but Sean Og and his mates still want their 'expenses.' Expenses were a convenient way of getting around GAA sensibilities about its amateur status and Government issues about the tax status of such grants.
Maybe I'm just a cynical old codger but I don't think Sean Og and his buddies really expect to get paid in the form of straight wages.  They have already proven themselves far too shrewd to go chasing after what they know full well isn't there.
My betting is that, when enough posturing on both sides has been done, the lads will settle for an enhanced form of expenses and won't worry too much about who will pick up the tab.

Quote from: Reillers on April 30, 2010, 11:57:53 PM

Quote from: theskull1 on April 30, 2010, 11:40:59 PM
I wouldn't go Reillers and I wouldn't watch it ont telly either

Forget everything else.....the GPA love to live in this intercounty bubble don't they

I'd hate to see them being paid, but like would you really have a problem if about a couple of euro from the gate takings going to players or to a players association that helps players out when they need it.

I'd have a problem yes because in the space of about two minutes your pay demands went from €4 per ticket to €2 per ticket for an AI final

If we pay this money, next year it'll be €10 a ticket on all finals and so on..

If Sean Og is so concerned about the plight of his fellow IC players he should setup a charitable trust from the large six figure sum he makes in commercial activites based on his GAA derived profile

Quote from: Reillers on May 01, 2010, 12:56:50 AM

Quote from: theskull1 on May 01, 2010, 12:47:28 AM
reillers why dont you broaden the premise of your argument to include all dedicated administrators and coaches in clubs? What about a few quid for them as well...is there anyone else we'd need to think of?

This is a very Orwellian (1984) position youre putting forward

Who's to say who deserves what.

The official guide and the amateur ethos of the organisation

just more sh1te coming out of Cork

its time the gaa started spreading the cash out, its a profitable organisation and to be a county player these days its like a full time job

Quote from: umgolaarmagh on May 02, 2010, 03:22:09 PM
to be a county player these days its like a full time job

hardly full time if you spend your days "stuck in da benk"?

The only solution to make the begrudgers on this forum happy is to abolish inter County games, sell off all the stadia and dont allow spectators into any games. :P :-*

Be interesting to hear from all the boys/girls who were arguing not so long ago that no one was looking pay for play or professionalism.

Delighted to see the O'Hasbeens stuffed by Galway today. Shows were their focus was this week £££££s.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 02, 2010, 09:37:07 PM
The only solution to make the begrudgers on this forum happy is to abolish inter County games, sell off all the stadia and dont allow spectators into any games. :P :-*

Fair play to you Rosfan you are nothing if not consistent...."usual suspects!" , "begrudgers" and the usual "im a fierce clever fella" type arguments,

Those of us who oppose professionalism have done more than our share in ensuring that games are played, stadia provided, and are spectators at many games. But your contribution to this debate any time it has arisen amounts to nothing more than cat calling from the back of the hall. 

You can understand why IC players would like some sort of payment.

Think about it, nearly everyone involved in an IC set up is paid - except the players. I know of one player that retired and went into coaching and was getting 150 a night for training a team. The player's are the ones that fill stadiums - not coaches.

Just off the top of my head thinking about people who would be receiving cash for being involved with Cavan:

Manager - Paid
Physio - Paid
Masseur - Paid
Groundsman - Paid
Secretary - Full-Time position
GK coach - paid

Personally I wouldn't like to see GAA go professional but I do agree that a certain and significant portion of gate receipts should be divided up between the two participating team's that fill a ground on that day.

Like I would hate to see GAA player's on contracts and only playing for cash but I personally would have no problem whatsoever with players receving a chunk from the gate receipts.

Quote from: put-it-up on May 03, 2010, 12:59:22 AM
You can understand why IC players would like some sort of payment.

Think about it, nearly everyone involved in an IC set up is paid - except the players. I know of one player that retired and went into coaching and was getting 150 a night for training a team.

The player's are the ones that fill stadiums - not coaches.

Just off the top of my head thinking about people who would be receiving cash for being involved with Cavan:

Manager - Paid
Physio - Paid
Masseur - Paid
Groundsman - Paid
Secretary - Full-Time position
GK coach - paid

Personally I wouldn't like to see GAA go professional but I do agree that a certain and significant portion of gate receipts should be divided up between the two participating team's that fill a ground on that day.

Like I would hate to see GAA player's on contracts and only playing for cash but I personally would have no problem whatsoever with players receving a chunk from the gate receipts.

and there's me thinking it was the supporters filled the stadiums...

Quote from: longrunsthefox on May 03, 2010, 01:46:15 AM

Quote from: put-it-up on May 03, 2010, 12:59:22 AM
You can understand why IC players would like some sort of payment.

Think about it, nearly everyone involved in an IC set up is paid - except the players. I know of one player that retired and went into coaching and was getting 150 a night for training a team.

The player's are the ones that fill stadiums - not coaches.

Just off the top of my head thinking about people who would be receiving cash for being involved with Cavan:

Manager - Paid
Physio - Paid
Masseur - Paid
Groundsman - Paid
Secretary - Full-Time position
GK coach - paid

Personally I wouldn't like to see GAA go professional but I do agree that a certain and significant portion of gate receipts should be divided up between the two participating team's that fill a ground on that day.

Like I would hate to see GAA player's on contracts and only playing for cash but I personally would have no problem whatsoever with players receving a chunk from the gate receipts.

and there's me thinking it was the supporters filled the stadiums...

There is always one smart arse around here ;D

You think all the supporters would pay into a ground where there were no player's in action?

We pay into the ground to be entertained. I wouldn't imagine there are too many industries in the world where the entertainers got none of the profits. In a circus, i'm sure the acts get some money. Imagine a stand-up comedian selling out a venue and not getting a cent of what was taken in at the door. If professional athletes knew how hard GAA players worked for the love of the game, I would say they would think that GAA lads are barking mad ;D

IC players should be given a few extra shillings from the gate receipts if you ask me..

Quote from: put-it-up on May 03, 2010, 02:36:09 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on May 03, 2010, 01:46:15 AM

Quote from: put-it-up on May 03, 2010, 12:59:22 AM
You can understand why IC players would like some sort of payment.

Think about it, nearly everyone involved in an IC set up is paid - except the players. I know of one player that retired and went into coaching and was getting 150 a night for training a team.

The player's are the ones that fill stadiums - not coaches.

Just off the top of my head thinking about people who would be receiving cash for being involved with Cavan:

Manager - Paid
Physio - Paid
Masseur - Paid
Groundsman - Paid
Secretary - Full-Time position
GK coach - paid

Personally I wouldn't like to see GAA go professional but I do agree that a certain and significant portion of gate receipts should be divided up between the two participating team's that fill a ground on that day.

Like I would hate to see GAA player's on contracts and only playing for cash but I personally would have no problem whatsoever with players receving a chunk from the gate receipts.

and there's me thinking it was the supporters filled the stadiums...

There is always one smart arse around here ;D

You think all the supporters would pay into a ground where there were no player's in action?

We pay into the ground to be entertained. I wouldn't imagine there are too many industries in the world where the entertainers got none of the profits. In a circus, i'm sure the acts get some money. Imagine a stand-up comedian selling out a venue and not getting a cent of what was taken in at the door. If professional athletes knew how hard GAA players worked for the love of the game, I would say they would think that GAA lads are barking mad ;D

IC players should be given a few extra shillings from the gate receipts if you ask me..

Where does it end in a sport that can't expand? Few quid today- is a lot in 10 years. In other words gate receipts won't get much bigger between now and then so the players cut will get bigger. Then clubs have nothing to build facilities with. There is no way that players getting paid doesn't mean the end of the clubs. Some of them are on the breadline anyway.
It would have to be financed outside the receipts of the association to have any chance.

Has anyone mentioned the lad that sells the hot dogs yet?
He gets paid.  :P ::)

Quote from: put-it-up on May 03, 2010, 12:59:22 AM
You can understand why IC players would like some sort of payment.

Think about it, nearly everyone involved in an IC set up is paid - except the players. I know of one player that retired and went into coaching and was getting 150 a night for training a team. The player's are the ones that fill stadiums - not coaches.

Just off the top of my head thinking about people who would be receiving cash for being involved with Cavan:

Manager - Paid
Physio - Paid
Masseur - Paid
Groundsman - Paid
Secretary - Full-Time position
GK coach - paid

... all so that lads can play football in the best of facilities, supported by the best coaching and physical training services and professional administration and never have to put their hands in their pockets for it, apart from the negligible annual membership fee (I wonder how many IC players actually pay it).

The GAA provides its members with the best facilities of any sport in the country bar none (only golf* comes close), paid for by the voluntary contributions of the members and now the greedy few want to be paid to use them.

* How much does it cost to join a golf club? How much is the annual membership after that? Do golf clubs pay coaches, administrators, groundsmen, etc. Of course they do. Do they pay their members for using these services and facilities? Try asking your club pro for free lessons.

Quote from: Tatler Jack on May 03, 2010, 12:24:10 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on May 02, 2010, 09:37:07 PM
The only solution to make the begrudgers on this forum happy is to abolish inter County games, sell off all the stadia and dont allow spectators into any games. :P :-*

Fair play to you Rosfan you are nothing if not consistent...."usual suspects!" , "begrudgers" and the usual "im a fierce clever fella" type arguments,

Those of us who oppose professionalism have done more than our share in ensuring that games are played, stadia provided, and are spectators at many games. But your contribution to this debate any time it has arisen amounts to nothing more than cat calling from the back of the hall.

I'm opposed to professionalism too on the basis that it cannot be sustainable.
I play(badly) a biteen of music but will never be good enough to even get a token few €s.
However I don't go around criticising those talented ones who can make a living out of doing something they love.
The usual begrudgers are the lads running down the IC players at the slightest opening. Not many real arguments being made against professionalism but a lot of "Sean og is a ****"  "Donaghy is a *****"  "IC players are greedy ****s" "I' m finished with the GAA if IC players get paid"
Methinks I'm not the only consistent one hereabouts ;)

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 29, 2010, 11:34:22 AM
In other news, pope is Catholic.

I'd say if you asked any player would you like to be a professional GAA player, the vast majority would say yes please.

However, the GAA as an organisation must not go down that road, in my opinion, for reasons that have been done to death here.

Anyhow, my mantra is that players who represent their county are honoured to do so, but should be looked after and not be directly out of pocket because of their involvement.

Thus by all means pay gym membership, give them gear, help them with diet etc. But that's it.

tyrone county board have been doing this for year

I don't want to see professionalism
I don't think it's a benefit or improvement in the game
I don't think we can sustain it (as is with 32+ counties)

I would like to see two things though for the players ...

1. Strict CAB like investigation of County Managers (this is one reason why many players are asking for money)
2. Proper care (medical bills, meals, travel expenses all paid for immediately - not 6-12 months after)
3. Tax Breaks or tax incentives (so that at source a player on a county panel can apply and pay reduced tax)

2 & 3 Should also be enforced for County Managers

If the players are getting paid would the Bosman rule not kick in?  Players would be free to transfer to whatever county they wanted as its illegal to stop staff from leaving one emloyer to work for another.  How could the Corks, Kerry's and Dublins be stopped from buying other poorer counties star players? 

Quote from: Logan on May 03, 2010, 02:38:54 PM
I don't want to see professionalism
I don't think it's a benefit or improvement in the game
I don't think we can sustain it (as is with 32+ counties)

I would like to see two things though for the players ...

1. Strict CAB like investigation of County Managers (this is one reason why many players are asking for money)
2. Proper care (medical bills, meals, travel expenses all paid for immediately - not 6-12 months after)
3. Tax Breaks or tax incentives (so that at source a player on a county panel can apply and pay reduced tax)

2 & 3 Should also be enforced for County Managers

can't source tax breaks for an amateur. you'd be laughed out of it

Quote from: put-it-up on May 03, 2010, 02:36:09 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on May 03, 2010, 01:46:15 AM

Quote from: put-it-up on May 03, 2010, 12:59:22 AM
You can understand why IC players would like some sort of payment.

Think about it, nearly everyone involved in an IC set up is paid - except the players. I know of one player that retired and went into coaching and was getting 150 a night for training a team.

The player's are the ones that fill stadiums - not coaches.

Just off the top of my head thinking about people who would be receiving cash for being involved with Cavan:

Manager - Paid
Physio - Paid
Masseur - Paid
Groundsman - Paid
Secretary - Full-Time position
GK coach - paid

Personally I wouldn't like to see GAA go professional but I do agree that a certain and significant portion of gate receipts should be divided up between the two participating team's that fill a ground on that day.

Like I would hate to see GAA player's on contracts and only playing for cash but I personally would have no problem whatsoever with players receving a chunk from the gate receipts.

and there's me thinking it was the supporters filled the stadiums...

There is always one smart arse around here ;D

You think all the supporters would pay into a ground where there were no player's in action?

We pay into the ground to be entertained. I wouldn't imagine there are too many industries in the world where the entertainers got none of the profits. In a circus, i'm sure the acts get some money. Imagine a stand-up comedian selling out a venue and not getting a cent of what was taken in at the door. If professional athletes knew how hard GAA players worked for the love of the game, I would say they would think that GAA lads are barking mad ;D

IC players should be given a few extra shillings from the gate receipts if you ask me..

So if the ground is full at a club championship game should the players get paid as by your reckoning they have filled it. It goes on and on... if there were no club underage coaches there'd be no players, if there were no club comittees there'd be no players etc etc...  to hell with your elitism...

And if there were no players there would be no need for coaches,committees etc etc etc although Eugene McGee reckons the Committees would continue holding meetings anyway  :D

Quote from: INDIANA on May 03, 2010, 06:44:52 PM

Quote from: Logan on May 03, 2010, 02:38:54 PM
I don't want to see professionalism
I don't think it's a benefit or improvement in the game
I don't think we can sustain it (as is with 32+ counties)

I would like to see two things though for the players ...

1. Strict CAB like investigation of County Managers (this is one reason why many players are asking for money)
2. Proper care (medical bills, meals, travel expenses all paid for immediately - not 6-12 months after)
3. Tax Breaks or tax incentives (so that at source a player on a county panel can apply and pay reduced tax)

2 & 3 Should also be enforced for County Managers

can't source tax breaks for an amateur. you'd be laughed out of it

?
Eh.... obviously then it wouldn't be amateur then would it?

We're talking about allowing players to be rewarded in a manner that doesn't destroy the game and sport.

Quote from: Logan on May 03, 2010, 08:37:07 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on May 03, 2010, 06:44:52 PM

Quote from: Logan on May 03, 2010, 02:38:54 PM
I don't want to see professionalism
I don't think it's a benefit or improvement in the game
I don't think we can sustain it (as is with 32+ counties)

I would like to see two things though for the players ...

1. Strict CAB like investigation of County Managers (this is one reason why many players are asking for money)
2. Proper care (medical bills, meals, travel expenses all paid for immediately - not 6-12 months after)
3. Tax Breaks or tax incentives (so that at source a player on a county panel can apply and pay reduced tax)

2 & 3 Should also be enforced for County Managers

can't source tax breaks for an amateur. you'd be laughed out of it

?
Eh.... obviously then it wouldn't be amateur then would it?

We're talking about allowing players to be rewarded in a manner that doesn't destroy the game and sport.

What people need to realise is that things are going to change, and it's up to the GAA to control it, so some concessions will probably have to be made. The more resistance there is the more damage could be done. When it is in the hands of the GAA at least there is control to it.

The attitude of some club members, the we don't get anything, why should they..for me, is as harmful as the other side.

For me..If they're good enough to play IC, fair play, I wont begrudge anyone anything. I'm not in anyway suggesting or agreeing with pay for play, but I wont begrudge anyone sponsorships or concessions they get for playing.
But there are some people who can possibly do and as much harm as the people saying that the likes of the GPA and the professional aspect are destroying the game, the people who dig their heels in and refuse to give in to any sort of concessions, are putting the game in danger all the same.

I'm sure the majority do not want pay for play, and are only looking for some sort of recognition, if concessions are made, even if they are small ones, it will make a difference, but the more resistance they meet, the more they'll fight.

What happened with all you boys who accused others of being paranoid, obsessed  or anti-gpa just for the sake of it. 'Pay for play', it will never happen, the gpa don't want it and the players don't either. Well, well, well. Sure Donal óg looked into it and it isn't feasible so that's the end of that.
Of course it's on the agenda and in all likelihood will come into being.
Partly because of what the pro pay element say; so many in admin, but particularly in Croke Park are being paid that the powers that be will not have the grounds to oppose payment, and yes managers get paid and a fair few others.
The problem is sustaining so many when the players' payments come into play and for so many reasons it will fundamentally change the GAA.
But before I make my mind up on this what are the reasons again?
Oh aye, because players give so much commitment.  No, no, no. That's an old reason.
Got it now. Because so many go to watch individual players and there are thousands at matches. No, no, no. Only part of it.
It's because others get monies so why shouldn't they.
Or it's because of the strength of sponsorship.
Or it's maybe because if they don't get a cut the gpa will try to undermine the GAA's sponsorship and be as disruptive as possible.
So why haven't the now recognised gpa come out and said 'pay for play' is not on the agenda and Sean óg and the other boys are only indulging in wishful thinking?
Wouldn't be that Sean óg's interview and the other boys' support was orchestrated would it?

Anyone else who can list a reason previously given for pay for play feel free.

Quote from: Reillers on May 03, 2010, 09:47:50 PM

Quote from: Logan on May 03, 2010, 08:37:07 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on May 03, 2010, 06:44:52 PM

Quote from: Logan on May 03, 2010, 02:38:54 PM
I don't want to see professionalism
I don't think it's a benefit or improvement in the game
I don't think we can sustain it (as is with 32+ counties)

I would like to see two things though for the players ...

1. Strict CAB like investigation of County Managers (this is one reason why many players are asking for money)
2. Proper care (medical bills, meals, travel expenses all paid for immediately - not 6-12 months after)
3. Tax Breaks or tax incentives (so that at source a player on a county panel can apply and pay reduced tax)

2 & 3 Should also be enforced for County Managers

can't source tax breaks for an amateur. you'd be laughed out of it

?
Eh.... obviously then it wouldn't be amateur then would it?

We're talking about allowing players to be rewarded in a manner that doesn't destroy the game and sport.

What people need to realise is that things are going to change, and it's up to the GAA to control it, so some concessions will probably have to be made. The more resistance there is the more damage could be done.  the more resistance they meet, the more they'll fight.

That sounds like a strike threat to me?

I would've thought that by formally recognising the GPA, giving them offices in Croke Park and funding player welfare programs would have been a huge concession.

Exactly what more are you're lot looking for? A free jeep to compliment the sponsored car?

QuoteWhat happened with all you boys who accused others of being paranoid, obsessed  or anti-gpa just for the sake of it. 'Pay for play', it will never happen, the gpa don't want it and the players don't either. Well, well, well. Sure Donal óg looked into it and it isn't feasible so that's the end of that.
Of course it's on the agenda and in all likelihood will come into being.

Will you go away out of it Scully. Not that I'm surprised you fail to grasp it, but there is a difference between wanting something and actively seeking it. Of course every player in the country would like to be paid for doing something they love but I don't know of even one who thinks it is likely or is willing to fight for it. FFS Sean Og won't even be eligible for it should it ever come to pass so he has nothing to personally gain by talking about professionalism. The man gave his opinion, he isn't the brightest spark anyway, but that is all he did. The GPA have said it isn't feasible and everyone else knows it isn't feasible so it won't happen but don't let that stop your paranoid, scaremongering ramblings.

Get a reality check Zulu.
Do ye think that will be the end of it?

Quote from: Zulu on May 04, 2010, 05:21:01 PM

QuoteWhat happened with all you boys who accused others of being paranoid, obsessed  or anti-gpa just for the sake of it. 'Pay for play', it will never happen, the gpa don't want it and the players don't either. Well, well, well. Sure Donal óg looked into it and it isn't feasible so that's the end of that.
Of course it's on the agenda and in all likelihood will come into being.

Will you go away out of it Scully. Not that I'm surprised you fail to grasp it, but there is a difference between wanting something and actively seeking it. Of course every player in the country would like to be paid for doing something they love but I don't know of even one who thinks it is likely or is willing to fight for it. FFS Sean Og won't even be eligible for it should it ever come to pass so he has nothing to personally gain by talking about professionalism. The man gave his opinion, he isn't the brightest spark anyway, but that is all he did. The GPA have said it isn't feasible and everyone else knows it isn't feasible so it won't happen but don't let that stop your paranoid, scaremongering ramblings.

A bit presumptious of you to presume 'every' player would like to be paid. There are players gave their 'grants' to their clubs and Phillip Jordan and Oisin McConville spoke out strongly agianst GPA proposed strike for money a few years ago. Not all the players have lost sight of the ethos of the GAA.   

How about a voluntary extra euro to be added to the price of a ticket for every game - to be divided equally among the two panels involved in the game.

Wouldnt cost the GAA a cent.
Those against pay for play should not pay the voluntary euro.
Those who would like to see the players get a few bob and can afford it, can give the voluntary euro. At a wild guess I'd imagine about 10% to 20% would pay the extra euro.
While the GAA may be involved in administering it they would get Revenue approval beforehand that this is a gift from the public rather than salary, so the players are not employees and there are no employment laws to get mixed up in. Under gift tax law, players can get up to about €10k tax free, and after that pay tax at 25%.
Ensure transfers are kept very tight so players can't follow the buck.

Quote from: dowling on May 04, 2010, 07:59:35 PM
Get a reality check Zulu.
Do ye think that will be the end of it?

There might be a few more talking about it in papers but yes I do think that will be the end of it. The GPA accept we can't afford it and very few in the wider GAA community want it so it won't happen but sure you couldn't care less about realities like that your too busy making up fantastical plots for world domination by the GPA.

QuoteA bit presumptious of you to presume 'every' player would like to be paid.

I obviously don't know for sure but I'd be surprised if serious IC players wouldn't like to play football/hurling full time and not have to get up for work every Monday morning. Giving your grant to your club doesn't mean you wouldn't like to be a professional footballer in an ideal world and wanting to get paid for doping something you love doesn't mean you've abandoned any ethos.

Quote from: Hound on May 04, 2010, 09:01:17 PM
How about a voluntary extra euro to be added to the price of a ticket for every game - to be divided equally among the two panels involved in the game.

Wouldnt cost the GAA a cent.
Those against pay for play should not pay the voluntary euro.
Those who would like to see the players get a few bob and can afford it, can give the voluntary euro. At a wild guess I'd imagine about 10% to 20% would pay the extra euro.
While the GAA may be involved in administering it they would get Revenue approval beforehand that this is a gift from the public rather than salary, so the players are not employees and there are no employment laws to get mixed up in. Under gift tax law, players can get up to about €10k tax free, and after that pay tax at 25%.
Ensure transfers are kept very tight so players can't follow the buck.

That's a fine idea in theory, but who''s going to pay extra to pay someone for something they haven't been paid for so far?

On another point, what would happen if every supporter got behind the idea and paid the extra few bob?  Would each player get the same amount or would ego get in the way (it always does with money) ?

Would a big point scorer get more money than someone else?

I dint think there is any appetite for an official above board pay for pay scheme .Its the under the table payments that will cause the issue . How many inter county panelists are out of work at the moment ?

Quote from: johnpower on May 04, 2010, 11:07:08 PM
I dint think there is any appetite for an official above board pay for pay scheme .Its the under the table payments that will cause the issue . How many inter county panelists are out of work at the moment ?

possibly the same number that was out of work during the the 20's 30's 40' 50's 60's and 70's.

unemployment and people migrating to other countries has been going on for years and years to come. there are plenty of people who can slot into county teams

Zulu in effect pay for play has already happened with the substantial sum of money given over to the gpa. The practice is there, the only thing that will change in time will be the form and amount of payment.
Who would have thought not that long ago that it would have been feasible for the gpa to be given offices in Croke Park and have a lump sum packed away in their back pocket?
Ok the gpa said professionalism wasn't feasible but was that perhaps just expediency? There's an awful lot of emphasis on player welfare and a lot of demand for financial cover for such. To me if it walks like a duck... And all that.
I wouldn't doubt for one minute that the gpa and individual members of it still have professionalism in their sights even if it is under a different name for now.
What I can't understand is why the more opened minded here, and I would include you in that, to support their argument say even the gpa say it isn't feasible. Before they were saying they weren't interested in professionalism. So why do a feasibility study into it at all then?
From personal experience speaking to certain gpa members, the hardcore for want of a better description, there's always been a desire to have pay for play.
Some arguments are hard to oppose in theory. There's no doubt, for the hierarchy and managers, the GAA is now a career move so how can managers but especially those in Croke oppose the theory of others getting paid. There is a lot of duplicity and hypocrisy.
I'm convinced there will be a formula found to make professionalism feasible in time. But it wont be compatible with the GAA of today and will profoundly change it for the worse.

Indeed, Dowling.


Dessie Farrell on professionalism, 2002:

"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present."

"Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won".


Donal Óg Cusack on professionalism, 2005:

"Money is very much in the game as we speak.

"All you have to do is go to Croke Park and look at their budgets for the year.

"The idea of volunteerism? I don't accept that. If I was training a young guy and I thought he could go on to become a professional athlete and make a great life for himself, I would be delighted to see him go on and do that.

"And if you look at other sports – soccer, rugby, Australian Rules – the volunteer aspect has never been affected by the game being professional."

"Everybody can see how professional it <the GAA> is on one level – they say they have respect for players but the relationship with the GPA is practically non-existent.

"They can't want players to produce this product, then sell it and tell players it's all for the love of the game."


Clearly these men are staunch opponents of professionalism.

Cheers Hardy.
I know some people will still argue with that but I don't really see how they can.

I had been told earlier of the Irish Mail article by a M. Clifford today. Just read it. Who is he? Is he the new spokesman for the GPA? According to him all youse that are anti 'Pay for Play' should not worry because "These are not fears but unbridled paranoia" 

Quote from: dowling on May 05, 2010, 09:49:54 AM
Zulu in effect pay for play has already happened with the substantial sum of money given over to the gpa. The practice is there, the only thing that will change in time will be the form and amount of payment.
Who would have thought not that long ago that it would have been feasible for the gpa to be given offices in Croke Park and have a lump sum packed away in their back pocket?
Ok the gpa said professionalism wasn't feasible but was that perhaps just expediency? There's an awful lot of emphasis on player welfare and a lot of demand for financial cover for such. To me if it walks like a duck... And all that.
I wouldn't doubt for one minute that the gpa and individual members of it still have professionalism in their sights even if it is under a different name for now.
What I can't understand is why the more opened minded here, and I would include you in that, to support their argument say even the gpa say it isn't feasible. Before they were saying they weren't interested in professionalism. So why do a feasibility study into it at all then?
From personal experience speaking to certain gpa members, the hardcore for want of a better description, there's always been a desire to have pay for play.
Some arguments are hard to oppose in theory. There's no doubt, for the hierarchy and managers, the GAA is now a career move so how can managers but especially those in Croke oppose the theory of others getting paid. There is a lot of duplicity and hypocrisy.
I'm convinced there will be a formula found to make professionalism feasible in time. But it wont be compatible with the GAA of today and will profoundly change it for the worse.

Do you believe that the way IC players were treated in the past was acceptable? Yes or no.
The GPA was formed by players up and down this country (not just Cork and for a time there was just 2 Cork players in it)
formed it because they felt it was neccesary to do so. They felt that they were not being treated well enough, it wasn't formed for them to try and figure out a way of getting pay for play. It's not what it was about, despite people's opinions. It was to try and have some say in whether the GAA used their image in ads, or about preventing things like Niall McCarthy having to travel all the way down from Derry in the bus with blood pooring out of his head because no doc was able to go with them.
 
Were they wrong to look for some sort of body of representation that looked after them? Not money wise, that body has not asked for professionalism. Were they wrong to look to have their wellfare looked after? It wasn't coming from the GAA and that's what they all looked somewhere else to something else. I mean that's why it's there. That's the idea of it anyway.

Every player up and down this country would like to, in a dream land, be paid for playing GAA, everyone involved would love if they get money, from the lads who take care of the ground to the IC players, everyone would love to be paid for all the work we do.

But that's just a fantasy, no one wants professionalism, the majority don't want it anyway, it will never happen, not in our lifetime, and EVERYONE, players included knows that.

It will never happen, and the country could never afford it, especially not now. It will never happen so what the point of arguing it to death is, I don't know.

Sure the conspiracy lads have  to have something to keep them moaning about those nasty Inter County and player  types -- with of course an Inter County Player being the Devil incarnate altogether.

Quote from: Reillers on May 05, 2010, 06:53:53 PM

Quote from: dowling on May 05, 2010, 09:49:54 AM
Zulu in effect pay for play has already happened with the substantial sum of money given over to the gpa. The practice is there, the only thing that will change in time will be the form and amount of payment.
Who would have thought not that long ago that it would have been feasible for the gpa to be given offices in Croke Park and have a lump sum packed away in their back pocket?
Ok the gpa said professionalism wasn't feasible but was that perhaps just expediency? There's an awful lot of emphasis on player welfare and a lot of demand for financial cover for such. To me if it walks like a duck... And all that.
I wouldn't doubt for one minute that the gpa and individual members of it still have professionalism in their sights even if it is under a different name for now.
What I can't understand is why the more opened minded here, and I would include you in that, to support their argument say even the gpa say it isn't feasible. Before they were saying they weren't interested in professionalism. So why do a feasibility study into it at all then?
From personal experience speaking to certain gpa members, the hardcore for want of a better description, there's always been a desire to have pay for play.
Some arguments are hard to oppose in theory. There's no doubt, for the hierarchy and managers, the GAA is now a career move so how can managers but especially those in Croke oppose the theory of others getting paid. There is a lot of duplicity and hypocrisy.
I'm convinced there will be a formula found to make professionalism feasible in time. But it wont be compatible with the GAA of today and will profoundly change it for the worse.

preventing things like Niall McCarthy having to travel all the way down from Derry in the bus with blood pooring out of his head because no doc was able to go with them.
 

(http://gopcounterculture.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/goodfellas.jpg)

"Just get on the team bus Doc and no-one gets hurt. Try any funny business and we'll blaggard you in the media and can organise funeral boycotts on request..."

Told you Hardy.

I would differ on why the gpa was set up. With the increased GAA revenue a few boys decided there was potential for players to get a cut. And to strengthen their case they've latched on to welfare and this commitment bit along with raising their importance in the GAA as if the rest of us aren't worth a fcuk and other players don't have the same needs. Like no one gives commitment or has needs like a IC player.

Ad no one is making this a Cork issue Reillers by the way.

First off dowling, credit where credit is due your reply is a fair and reasonable post. However I think you ignore many of the realities that simply ensure a professional GAA is not a possibility.

QuoteZulu in effect pay for play has already happened with the substantial sum of money given over to the gpa. The practice is there, the only thing that will change in time will be the form and amount of payment.

I disagree, they have been given money from central funds, clubs and counties get money through CP also, as do many committees etc. That isn't professionalism that is money for player welfare and it would have been spent on player welfare whether it was through the GPA or some other player welfare body. They also have to clearly show how they are spending the money before they can access it so no player will pocket any of it for simply playing the games.

QuoteWho would have thought not that long ago that it would have been feasible for the gpa to be given offices in Croke Park and have a lump sum packed away in their back pocket?

I would have and the decision is not before time. It is pointless GAA administration and GAA players being at loggerheads. A solution had to be found and like or not the GPA are the players representatives.

QuoteOk the gpa said professionalism wasn't feasible but was that perhaps just expediency? There's an awful lot of emphasis on player welfare and a lot of demand for financial cover for such. To me if it walks like a duck... And all that.

Why would it be expediency? Why admit it wasn't feasible if that is their goal? Of course there should be a lot of emphasis on player welfare, we demand a huge amount from our players and they generate huge amounts of money, the least we can do is ensure they are looked after as best we can.

QuoteI wouldn't doubt for one minute that the gpa and individual members of it still have professionalism in their sights even if it is under a different name for now.

Only a fool wouldn't want to get paid for doing what they love but the GPA know as well as anyone that professionalism isn't a realistic goal so there is no point in pursuing it. Anyway they know that there is no way they'd generate the support of the rest of the GAA so it simply isn't a runner.

QuoteWhat I can't understand is why the more opened minded here, and I would include you in that, to support their argument say even the gpa say it isn't feasible. Before they were saying they weren't interested in professionalism. So why do a feasibility study into it at all then?

Why not do one? IMO the GAA should have done it as we should make decisions on facts, not conjecture. If you think a professional GAA is feasible then please outline it for me because I can't think of any way that a professional GAA would a) work and fund itself and b) get the necessary support for it to become a reality.

QuoteI'm convinced there will be a formula found to make professionalism feasible in time.

That's like saying you're convinced the world will end if we don't all repent. You might be right but if you want to be taken seriously you have to show us why you think that.

QuoteBut it wont be compatible with the GAA of today and will profoundly change it for the worse

I'd broadly agree, which is why it won't happen. The players aren't fools and none of the current day players will see any money even if we do go professional as it won't happen in the next 10 years. All the players would love to get paid I'm sure but they wouldn't want it if it destroyed the GAA and if it wasn't sustainable. The reality is it isn't sustainable and would fundamentally change the GAA from what it is.

Quote from: dowling on May 05, 2010, 07:22:42 PM
Told you Hardy.

I would differ on why the gpa was set up. With the increased GAA revenue a few boys decided there was potential for players to get a cut. And to strengthen their case they've latched on to welfare and this commitment bit along with raising their importance in the GAA as if the rest of us aren't worth a fcuk and other players don't have the same needs. Like no one gives commitment or has needs like a IC player.

Ad no one is making this a Cork issue Reillers by the way.

So you think that all these players involved, all who started it did it purely because they thought they saw the potential for players to get a cut?
You are such a cynic.

The GPA was founded..in Ulster..Donal O'Neill founded it, the likes of Fergal Logan, Peter Canavan all backed it and it eventually found it's way out of Ulster.
Were they looking for a cut?

It grew and was backed then because it was needed, the players wanted an outlet, they wanted someone or something to stand up for their rights.
They were being treated like crap and they felt that the players association was needed. There's one in every other sport, why not in the GAA.
And through that they wanted to stop the GAA from using their image whenever they pleased, to help out players when they needed it be it medically, financially and whatever else, not pay for play.
Now things are better but they could be better, if a player gets injured they shouldn't have to wait months to get that money that compinsates them.

It's just, I get what you're saying right. The organisation is and always be and I firmly believe that, an amateur organisation. But the GAA, IMO, can't expect the players, especially the IC players to act like and train professionally on one hand and treat them like crap on the other hand, they can't have it both ways. Now I'm not saying it should be professional, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that they can't expect them to act like and train like professional athletes and treat them like they did, in a purely amateur way.


Like I said, you're getting very worked up about something that can't happen and everyone knows it, it can't happen because the money isn't there, it wasn't there when we had money and it certainly isn't there now. And more importantly then that is the fact that they would never get the backing it needs.
Ya the odd individual, like Sean Og, might turn around say oh he'd love if they got paid, you'd have to be a deluded man to think that they wouldn't all love to get paid for playing, to get paid for doing something you love or have to go to work everyday and fit training around the rest of their lives. But that is just a fantasy. Hell they might even want it to go pro, which I don't think is what Sean Og was saying, but that's another thing really, but the truth of it is and every man and his dog knows it, that it will never happen.

The GPA is there to represent the players and if it wasn't formed some other organisation would have been to protect and serve the welfare of it's players, if they never were formed, something else would have been.
They do work, a lot of work, with their twin counties, Cork's one is Down, or it was, and a lot of work is done there. It's not just about the top IC players, it's far from it and I think you make judgements on something you're not fully informed about.
Many people hate it, or hate the idea of it, but if the GPA manage to get it to the club scene, like they want to, then great, maybe we'll get our physio cover back,  ;) It's hard enough, the times we are in now, it's hard enough to get by.

People used to go to out training for the escape, down to the ball alley hit around for a while, not have to worry about will they have a job in the morning or will they have to leave or whatever. For me I go training and see empty places in the dressing room, fewer and fewer because so many are after emmigrating and I've no doubt that it's the same scenario up and down the country. Things are hard enough. Because of that, I wont begrudge anyone who earns a sponsorship from Adidas or gets a free car or ever a free pair of boots because they are good at the game. They work hard enough for it.
We do what we do to get along and I also wont begrudge them if the IC players get an extra euro or two to cover them for injuries or if they get stuck in money difficulties, with college or whatever.

I'm not promoting pay for play but I certainly wont have a go at lads who are able to earn the extra euro out of it.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 05, 2010, 07:10:45 PM
Sure the conspiracy lads have  to have something to keep them moaning about those nasty Inter County and player  types -- with of course an Inter County Player being the Devil incarnate altogether.

Think you mentioned earlier on this thread that you play a biteen of music. Pity you have only the one tune!!!

Quote from: Reillers on May 06, 2010, 06:01:36 PM

Quote from: dowling on May 05, 2010, 07:22:42 PM
Told you Hardy.

I would differ on why the gpa was set up. With the increased GAA revenue a few boys decided there was potential for players to get a cut. And to strengthen their case they've latched on to welfare and this commitment bit along with raising their importance in the GAA as if the rest of us aren't worth a fcuk and other players don't have the same needs. Like no one gives commitment or has needs like a IC player.

Ad no one is making this a Cork issue Reillers by the way.

I also wont begrudge them if the IC players get an extra euro or two to cover them for injuries or if they get stuck in money difficulties, with college or whatever.

I don't think anyone (even the most ardent anti Cork/GPA person) would want to see anyone, least of all a college student out of pocket.

The problem is when it goes from ensuring no-one is stuck, to a certain few deciding whether to build on an east or a west wing on the site they got for cost price from the builder.

Ps - Bobby texted me there to say the word around Cork is that you're moving northwards next year...Na Piarsaigh..any truth??

Quote from: Tatler Jack on May 06, 2010, 07:48:30 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on May 05, 2010, 07:10:45 PM
Sure the conspiracy lads have  to have something to keep them moaning about those nasty Inter County and player  types -- with of course an Inter County Player being the Devil incarnate altogether.

Think you mentioned earlier on this thread that you play a biteen of music. Pity you have only the one tune!!!

I'm responding to posters who have one tune ( nasty greedy inter co/GPA etc etc etc).

I wonder if anyone here would consider it a possibility of IC teams being adopted by a commercial sponsor or indeed a number of sponsors would come to pass.
I'm not advocating it but I can see the current basketball model of sponsorship being adapted in some shape or form by the GAA. I have been told that there are some counties that already have such deals in operation even if they are of the under the table variety. Like the payment, as opposed to legitimate expenses, of managers, is rumoured to be widespread.

But of course I don't believe a word of any such payments being made by anyone to anyone else.  ;)
All the same, I'd love to know what Sean Og would make of such scurrilous rumours.

Lads, lads, are ye still at this.  Would ye not leave the poor old GPA alone?

it really is a non starter lads, there is no real money about. we play this sport cause we love it, not for money. if your one of the lucky ones to be playing on the big stage then you really are blessed.

think of the lesser lights playing on shitty council pitches were the motor bikes have ripped up the pitch, dogs chasing the ball or cold showers after a rained soaked game. training gear is never available and the rig has not been washed since the last game as the managers washing machine is broken!!

but you know what, none of that would ever put me off going to these games, putting petrol in my car picking up mates and heading down the Glens to play hurling/football matches, or the expense of training gear boots helmets hurling sticks and whatever else the common player needs.

the IC players have it all and still want more. well they can go and fook themselves. they wont get any of my money should it go that way

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 07, 2010, 12:27:39 PM
it really is a non starter lads, there is no real money about. we play this sport cause we love it, not for money. if your one of the lucky ones to be playing on the big stage then you really are blessed.

think of the lesser lights playing on shitty council pitches were the motor bikes have ripped up the pitch, dogs chasing the ball or cold showers after a rained soaked game. training gear is never available and the rig has not been washed since the last game as the managers washing machine is broken!!

but you know what, none of that would ever put me off going to these games, putting petrol in my car picking up mates and heading down the Glens to play hurling/football matches, or the expense of training gear boots helmets hurling sticks and whatever else the common player needs.

the IC players have it all and still want more. well they can go and fook themselves. they wont get any of my money should it go that way

There's maybe not as much money about millltown row2 but two points to bear in mind. It's a question of redirecting monies and/or adding a little, be it to gate money at all levels and club affiliation fees.
Someone already asked if we would mind if a small percentage of gate money went to players. To my mind that will be the way it's addressed, only for 'that percentage' to be added to charges somewhere.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 06, 2010, 09:47:23 PM

Quote from: Tatler Jack on May 06, 2010, 07:48:30 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on May 05, 2010, 07:10:45 PM
Sure the conspiracy lads have  to have something to keep them moaning about those nasty Inter County and player  types -- with of course an Inter County Player being the Devil incarnate altogether.

Think you mentioned earlier on this thread that you play a biteen of music. Pity you have only the one tune!!!

I'm responding to posters who have one tune ( nasty greedy inter co/GPA etc etc etc).

And sure we're only responding to players who keep bringing up that they should be paid.


Zulu I suppose between us it comes down to how we read the whole situation. For me Hardy's post put it better than me. There's little point in us going over old ground but in that post it's clear to me that the gpa have an objective of professionalism but have decided to take a certain route to get there rather than a direct route.
I don't think for one minute that the gpa take the wider support into account. To deal with Croke Park is all that matters and in all honesty ther's very little that Croke Park reccomends to Congress now which doesn't get carried.

One thing that gets me in all this is that people say supporters demand ic players lead a certain lifestyle. Bollocks. It's the players and managers who do the pushing.

Quote from: Hardy on May 05, 2010, 10:48:30 AM
Dessie Farrell on professionalism, 2002:

"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present."

"Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won".

That it some gem of a quote!
Farrell has learned to keep his keep mouth shut since then.

Interesting article in the Indo this morning with Donal Og flogging his book:

"The attrition in the Cork dressing- room has abated, the boardroom of the GPA no longer bristles with ideas on how best to agitate"

Were they two sides of the same coin?

Quote from: heffo on May 21, 2010, 08:33:36 AM
Interesting article in the Indo this morning with Donal Og flogging his book:

"The attrition in the Cork dressing- room has abated, the boardroom of the GPA no longer bristles with ideas on how best to agitate"

Were they two sides of the same coin?

Je ne regrette rien.


No regrets. Won't read any KK books cos they're not honest like he is.  ;)

Quote from: Premier Emperor on May 10, 2010, 06:40:36 PM

Quote from: Hardy on May 05, 2010, 10:48:30 AM
Dessie Farrell on professionalism, 2002:

"We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present."

"Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won".

That it some gem of a quote!
Farrell has learned to keep his keep mouth shut since then.

Exactly...I knew I heard that fecker say that before. He said it more recent than that too. Lads, if If it looks like shit, smells like shit...it's probably shit...I cannot believe how stupid and short sighted these people are.

Nonsense, if the GPA say they don't want professionalism or anything to that effect some of you just dismiss it as the GPA being cute and playing us all for fools. Yet you constantly rehash these quotes, which is 8 years old now, as proof of their ultimate goal. Some of you have your minds made up and only evidence that suits your argument, regardless how out of date it is, is valid, anything that doesn't suit is dismissed as propaganda.

From the (new) GPA website:The mission statement of the organisation reads "The GPA is committed to protecting and promoting all aspects of player welfare and to the provision of a collective voice for inter-county players."

By focusing solely on inter-county players, the GPA completely contradict the very ethos of the GAA. Why single out one tiny percentage of people playing gaelic games? You seriously have to ask yourself why this is the case.

Even the name is a misnomer. It should be called inter-county gaelic players association. If it were for all players, I would have no problem with it whatsoever. Its stated aims seem noble. However, when you get into the segregation of "elite" players getting special treatment, you need to begin to question the motives.

There is no doubting the huge sacrifices that players make. However, there are huge sacrifices made by many in the association including reduced time with family etc but we do it for one reason and one reason only. I am personally out of pocket for time I spent on GAA matters. However, I would not want one single penny for it. Call it a grant, call it whatever you want, I personally wouldn't take it.

I mean, they demanded a percentage of GAA income in recent negotiations. I just cannot fathom that. If you do that, you take money from our clubs, you take money from our youth development projects. Who exactly benefits? and is the wider goal of the GAA served?

Players should be well looked after but ALL players equally.

Quote from: sheamy on May 22, 2010, 10:56:30 AM
From the (new) GPA website:The mission statement of the organisation reads "The GPA is committed to protecting and promoting all aspects of player welfare and to the provision of a collective voice for inter-county players."

By focusing solely on inter-county players, the GPA completely contradict the very ethos of the GAA. Why single out one tiny percentage of people playing gaelic games? You seriously have to ask yourself why this is the case.

Even the name is a misnomer. It should be called inter-county gaelic players association. If it were for all players, I would have no problem with it whatsoever. Its stated aims seem noble. However, when you get into the segregation of "elite" players getting special treatment, you need to begin to question the motives.

There is no doubting the huge sacrifices that players make. However, there are huge sacrifices made by many in the association including reduced time with family etc but we do it for one reason and one reason only. I am personally out of pocket for time I spent on GAA matters. However, I would not want one single penny for it. Call it a grant, call it whatever you want, I personally wouldn't take it.

I mean, they demanded a percentage of GAA income in recent negotiations. I just cannot fathom that. If you do that, you take money from our clubs, you take money from our youth development projects. Who exactly benefits? and is the wider goal of the GAA served?

Players should be well looked after but ALL players equally.

I agree that all players should be looked after from club to IC players, but in reality they're not, while it's not ideal, I'm not going to be bitter like a lot of people because the IC players are trying to get themselves looked after, and the "special treatment" I wonder what you think this special treatment is, because certain people on here are under the illusion that they get treated like professional soccer players, when they don't.
At the end of the day. The GAA have a long history of treating people and clubs like crap. With the GPA, that's one less group that are being mistreated. And I'm not going to be bitter and jealous because of that, unlike a lot of people.

And I'm not going to get absolutely hysterical if they get a car out of it, or say get a nice sponsorship from the likes of Adidas out of it, or whatever. You get by how you can. And I'm not going to begrudge them for that just because I don't get the "special treatment" so many of ye fantasise about.

Instead a lot of people have that attitude of..why should they get it when we don't. Times are hard enough as it is.

Quote from: Reillers on May 22, 2010, 11:38:24 AM

Quote from: sheamy on May 22, 2010, 10:56:30 AM
From the (new) GPA website:The mission statement of the organisation reads "The GPA is committed to protecting and promoting all aspects of player welfare and to the provision of a collective voice for inter-county players."

By focusing solely on inter-county players, the GPA completely contradict the very ethos of the GAA. Why single out one tiny percentage of people playing gaelic games? You seriously have to ask yourself why this is the case.

Even the name is a misnomer. It should be called inter-county gaelic players association. If it were for all players, I would have no problem with it whatsoever. Its stated aims seem noble. However, when you get into the segregation of "elite" players getting special treatment, you need to begin to question the motives.

There is no doubting the huge sacrifices that players make. However, there are huge sacrifices made by many in the association including reduced time with family etc but we do it for one reason and one reason only. I am personally out of pocket for time I spent on GAA matters. However, I would not want one single penny for it. Call it a grant, call it whatever you want, I personally wouldn't take it.

I mean, they demanded a percentage of GAA income in recent negotiations. I just cannot fathom that. If you do that, you take money from our clubs, you take money from our youth development projects. Who exactly benefits? and is the wider goal of the GAA served?

Players should be well looked after but ALL players equally.

I agree that all players should be looked after from club to IC players, but in reality they're not, while it's not ideal, I'm not going to be bitter like a lot of people because the IC players are trying to get themselves looked after, and the "special treatment" I wonder what you think this special treatment is, because certain people on here are under the illusion that they get treated like professional soccer players, when they don't.
At the end of the day. The GAA have a long history of treating people and clubs like crap. With the GPA, that's one less group that are being mistreated. And I'm not going to be bitter and jealous because of that, unlike a lot of people.

And I'm not going to get absolutely hysterical if they get a car out of it, or say get a nice sponsorship from the likes of Adidas out of it, or whatever. You get by how you can. And I'm not going to begrudge them for that just because I don't get the "special treatment" so many of ye fantasise about.

Instead a lot of people have that attitude of..why should they get it when we don't. Times are hard enough as it is.

Hand on heart, there is no bitterness or jealousy involved (on my part anyway). I don't begrudge people doing deals with sponsors either. If the demand is there, fair play and more power to those lads.

My only concern is the future direction of our association. Perhaps some of the "anti-GPA" reaction is over the top, but it's only a sign of how much people care and want to preserve the unique organisation that we have.

It's up to each county board and club to look after their own players. There are insurance schemes already run by Croke Park for Club players. County Boards pay medical and physio bills for intercounty players. There is a healthy supply of training gear. Players are fed and watered after training etc etc. If that's not the case in all counties, it should be, and should be policed by central council.

What else do people want?

Now let's look at what the GPA state that they provide:

"Career Development & Interview Preparation"
"Educational Advice"

Lads, I don't mean to be flippant but jasus christ! what are schools for? what are universities for? what are government employment agencies for?

"Personal Counselling"
what are health services for?

I know plenty of intercounty players who physically cringe when they read this stuff. It treats them like some poor critter who, because he spent his whole youth playing Gaelic Games, is fit to do nothing else.

Does anyone really buy into this bullshit?

QuoteBy focusing solely on inter-county players, the GPA completely contradict the very ethos of the GAA. Why single out one tiny percentage of people playing gaelic games? You seriously have to ask yourself why this is the case.

Because no players body could look after all players, so they representing the IC players who are raising huge sums of money for the GAA and for many years were treated abysmally. The GPA have stated that they would like to expand their remit to club players also but I'm not sure what they could do as every county runs its affairs differently.

QuoteIf it were for all players, I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

So you object to a section of the GAA playing population being looked after rather than embracing that and looking for it to be expanded to more players, a strange attitude.

QuoteThere is no doubting the huge sacrifices that players make. However, there are huge sacrifices made by many in the association including reduced time with family etc but we do it for one reason and one reason only. I am personally out of pocket for time I spent on GAA matters. However, I would not want one single penny for it. Call it a grant, call it whatever you want, I personally wouldn't take it.

I'm not sure you'd hold the same attitude if there was 80K going to your matches, anyway the players aren't getting money but simply improved welfare issues, they deserve that at least.

QuoteI mean, they demanded a percentage of GAA income in recent negotiations. I just cannot fathom that. If you do that, you take money from our clubs, you take money from our youth development projects. Who exactly benefits? and is the wider goal of the GAA served?

If welfare issues are to dealt with then money will have to be spent and if you want to question GAA spending, county grounds developments would be a more sensible target for a start.

QuoteBecause no players body could look after all players, so they representing the IC players who are raising huge sums of money for the GAA and for many years were treated abysmally. The GPA have stated that they would like to expand their remit to club players also but I'm not sure what they could do as every county runs its affairs differently.

And every county runs the affairs of its intercounty teams differently. What's your point?

QuoteSo you object to a section of the GAA playing population being looked after rather than embracing that and looking for it to be expanded to more players, a strange attitude.

Read my later post. There are already welfare schemes run by Croke Park for Club players. Players out injured are currently entitled to claim some money in compensation for want of a better word.  You seem to suggest that county players are currently badly treated. Hands up all those that are...

QuoteI'm not sure you'd hold the same attitude if there was 80K going to your matches, anyway the players aren't getting money but simply improved welfare issues, they deserve that at least.

Well if you're not sure, let me reassure you. I wouldn't and I know many lads who don't.

QuoteIf welfare issues are to dealt with then money will have to be spent and if you want to question GAA spending, county grounds developments would be a more sensible target for a start.

County ground developments? So you think these are needless wastes of money? You have obviously not read too much about health and safety criteria in modern stadia. Granted it's not the most sexy topic in the world but some eejits need to think about this.

Personally I'd like to see more money spent on youth development schemes, coaches and promotion of our games but that's just me.

QuoteAnd every county runs the affairs of its intercounty teams differently. What's your point?

No they don't. All county teams play in the same competitions and have the same season, more or less. At club level the club season in Kerry is vastly different from Tyrone for example and there are over 100,000 club players of varying standards and giving widely different levels of commitment. If your complaining about the money given to the GPA to deal with welfare issues for IC players can you imagine the money they would require to deal with 32 separate controlling bodies?

QuotePlayers out injured are currently entitled to claim some money in compensation for want of a better word.

If you think the injury scheme for players is fine you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Did you read the article about Bernard Flynn and his injury troubles since he retired. We have a huge amount to do in that area still.

QuoteWell if you're not sure, let me reassure you. I wouldn't and I know many lads who don't.

Nonsense, you can't be sure, none of us could. I'm also out of pocket from my involvement with the GAA but that doesn't stop me from being happy that our star players are being looked after much better now. hopefully some of the young lads I train will grow up in a better GAA that looks after its players better. It didn't do a great job when I played and that is the reason the GPA came into existence.

QuoteCounty ground developments? So you think these are needless wastes of money? You have obviously not read too much about health and safety criteria in modern stadia. Granted it's not the most sexy topic in the world but some eejits need to think about this.

Ah will you stop it, we have more white elephants that a zoo. Ask the Mayo clubs about the redevelopments at McHale Park or the Cork clubs about the need for a 60K stadium in Cork.

QuotePersonally I'd like to see more money spent on youth development schemes, coaches and promotion of our games but that's just me.

So would I but that doesn't mean IC player welfare has to suffer.

ok lad, you and I could argue points from now til next year. We'd still probably disagree. It's clear we're both GAA people who feel strongly about the association.

I'll be honest. The GPA thing scares the bejasus outta me as to where it could put us in 20 years. I want my children to have the same experience that I did. I do not want us to be akin to the IRFU in any way shape or form.

We all take pride in the likes of Munster and Leinster doing well but their decision to go pro and promote an elite band of players flies 100% in what the GAA is about. They've destroyed their club structures and competitions. But they probably took the right decision for them. It's not for us. Never will be.

I agree some county boards build "bertie bowls". I hate that too. but I also have a very valid point about upgrading grounds to do with health and safety and ensuring facilities are there for future generations. It doesn't mean they don't also want player welfare.

There are those in the GPA who would like to see the games go pro. The title of this thread bears testamount to that. I don't believe all do. But we need to be very very vigilant in terms of this. It's an attractive carrot in many ways for the elite spectrum. TV rights money etc etc.

We've all seen what greed did to this country. Don't let it infect the most important organisation in this country. The GAA isn't perfect, never will be. But noone else has anything close.

I've no doubt some lads would love to see it go pro and I can understand that but we can't afford it and there isn't a mechanism whereby we could. I support the GPA and I would have no problem with players getting paid if we could afford to and the competition structures didn't vary too far from what we have. But that isn't possible so we shouldn't be worrying about this and we shouldn't eye the GPA with suspicion and deal with them in a "if we give an inch they'll take a mile" manner. We should simply deal with player welfare in a mature and reasoned way because the IC players are very important and we'd be foolish to battle with our most talented and committed players on the basis of some doom merchants predicting the end of the GAA.

Quote from: Zulu on May 22, 2010, 08:26:51 PM
I've no doubt some lads would love to see it go pro and I can understand that but we can't afford it and there isn't a mechanism whereby we could. I support the GPA and I would have no problem with players getting paid if we could afford to and the competition structures didn't vary too far from what we have. But that isn't possible so we shouldn't be worrying about this and we shouldn't eye the GPA with suspicion and deal with them in a "if we give an inch they'll take a mile" manner. We should simply deal with player welfare in a mature and reasoned way because the IC players are very important and we'd be foolish to battle with our most talented and committed players on the basis of some doom merchants predicting the end of the GAA.

This is the heart of the issue. You are happy to place the future of our organisation in the hands of economic matters. I am not. I think it is too important an institution to be directed purely by what is affordable and what is not. We have enough of that in our daily lives. The GAA is our escape from that.

This is the only difference between us and, at a guess, I would say it is at the source of most of the disagreements on here.

Quote from: sheamy on May 22, 2010, 08:40:36 PM

Quote from: Zulu on May 22, 2010, 08:26:51 PM
I've no doubt some lads would love to see it go pro and I can understand that but we can't afford it and there isn't a mechanism whereby we could. I support the GPA and I would have no problem with players getting paid if we could afford to and the competition structures didn't vary too far from what we have. But that isn't possible so we shouldn't be worrying about this and we shouldn't eye the GPA with suspicion and deal with them in a "if we give an inch they'll take a mile" manner. We should simply deal with player welfare in a mature and reasoned way because the IC players are very important and we'd be foolish to battle with our most talented and committed players on the basis of some doom merchants predicting the end of the GAA.

This is the heart of the issue. You are happy to place the future of our organisation in the hands of economic matters. I am not. I think it is too important an institution to be directed purely by what is affordable and what is not. We have enough of that in our daily lives. The GAA is our escape from that.

This is the only difference between us and, at a guess, I would say it is at the source of most of the disagreements on here.

I don't want to see the GAA being anything other than an amateur association, that my opinion now, that like all other opinions could well change.
The GPA know that and that is not their priority. Despite some posters ramblings on here.

But as it is and probably will always be, we will never be able to afford it. Not when the Celtic Tiger was about, not now, we couldn't afford it when we were rolling in it, so to speak.

What I don't like is GAA players who play IC, is the fact that some, including most of the anti GPA lads on here, are blindly obsessed with the smallest of things they might get from playing from the game, a car, boots, free gear..etc. they play well enough, I will never begrudge anyone anything that they earn, not Joe Canning, Shefflin, Sean Og..etc. But a lot on here do. And, though they'll deny it completely, their hate of the GPA seems to be based purely on jealously and biterness, why should they earn something off it because we can't.

The IC players work like we do, they're not treated like kings, they're not raking in the money like some people on here think.
They're all struggling, like the rest of us, they don't earn money from it, either do we, they do get what they might earn from sponsorships or whatever, but they're good enough to do so, I'm certainly not going to hold anyone to that just because they're better than I am.

The GAA is an escape from everything, from everything else, but now? I don't know about you but it's hard to go in training, into the dressing room and look at places where people you grew up with, seeing where they used to sit, who up and left because they've emmigrated.
And that pull doesn't escape the IC players, or any of us. They are we, when it comes to the outside life, to unemployment, we are all out on our ear, all struggling, all deciding whether or not we should head off across the water.

So if an extra euro or so, from players welfare or whatever gives them a hand to stay, than well, I would have a fit over it. Times are tough and you do what you gotta do.

Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as successful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

Quote from: sheamy on May 22, 2010, 09:39:35 PM
Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as succssful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

BUt again, they argued hard in the Premiership soccer fiasco with your man John Terry, with the affair he had, now I've no time for these brats, or much for the game itself, but some papers went on about why should they been seen as role models, unfair pressure on them, they're just sportsmen..etc.
Which I think is bullshit because they get paid as much as they do, they should behave themselves and should act like the role models that they are to so many young lads across the globe.

So you could argue that it's a bit much to demand that a handful of amateur players do the same, they're not professional players..etc.
But they still do, they still wear their jersey, club or IC, with pride and as role models. And you never hear of them in the papers like you hear about some of those brats in the Premiership. They do it with more passion and respect it more because that jersey means more to them than it would ever to a soccer lad who goes where their biggest wage is.

But we demand a professional attitude, a professional performance, nothing but 100% and nothing, if you're from a top county, but success. Yet for a long time, and still today they are treated like crap, you can't expect them to be professional in every sense of the word and treat them like crap off the pitch. They're treated much better now, but they'd to fight tooth and nail for the most simple of things.

Quote from: Reillers on May 22, 2010, 10:14:17 PM

Quote from: sheamy on May 22, 2010, 09:39:35 PM
Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as succssful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

BUt again, they argued hard in the Premiership soccer fiasco with your man John Terry, with the affair he had, now I've no time for these brats, or much for the game itself, but some papers went on about why should they been seen as role models, unfair pressure on them, they're just sportsmen..etc.
Which I think is bullshit because they get paid as much as they do, they should behave themselves and should act like the role models that they are to so many young lads across the globe.

So you could argue that it's a bit much to demand that a handful of amateur players do the same, they're not professional players..etc.
But they still do, they still wear their jersey, club or IC, with pride and as role models. And you never hear of them in the papers like you hear about some of those brats in the Premiership. They do it with more passion and respect it more because that jersey means more to them than it would ever to a soccer lad who goes where their biggest wage is.

But we demand a professional attitude, a professional performance, nothing but 100% and nothing, if you're from a top county, but success. Yet for a long time, and still today they are treated like crap, you can't expect them to be professional in every sense of the word and treat them like crap off the pitch. They're treated much better now, but they'd to fight tooth and nail for the most simple of things.

didn't we all boy, didn't we all...

Quote from: sheamy on May 22, 2010, 10:35:17 PM

Quote from: Reillers on May 22, 2010, 10:14:17 PM

Quote from: sheamy on May 22, 2010, 09:39:35 PM
Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as succssful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

BUt again, they argued hard in the Premiership soccer fiasco with your man John Terry, with the affair he had, now I've no time for these brats, or much for the game itself, but some papers went on about why should they been seen as role models, unfair pressure on them, they're just sportsmen..etc.
Which I think is bullshit because they get paid as much as they do, they should behave themselves and should act like the role models that they are to so many young lads across the globe.

So you could argue that it's a bit much to demand that a handful of amateur players do the same, they're not professional players..etc.
But they still do, they still wear their jersey, club or IC, with pride and as role models. And you never hear of them in the papers like you hear about some of those brats in the Premiership. They do it with more passion and respect it more because that jersey means more to them than it would ever to a soccer lad who goes where their biggest wage is.

But we demand a professional attitude, a professional performance, nothing but 100% and nothing, if you're from a top county, but success. Yet for a long time, and still today they are treated like crap, you can't expect them to be professional in every sense of the word and treat them like crap off the pitch. They're treated much better now, but they'd to fight tooth and nail for the most simple of things.

didn't we all boy, didn't we all...

Didn't? Don't..

QuoteThis is the heart of the issue. You are happy to place the future of our organisation in the hands of economic matters.

No I'm not, but I don't agree that a professional GAA (if it was economically viable) would be the death of the GAA as we know it. Like I said, it doesn't matter whether you or I want a professional GAA or what some of the GPA might like, a professional GAA isn't going to happen. Therefore, we shouldn't deal with the GPA as a group who are hell bent on creating a professional GAA and to prevent that happening we must fight them on every issue. The paranoia about professionalism should be put to bed and should be replaced by an outlook characterised by co-operation to achieve goals that are mutually beneficial to our IC players and the GAA as a whole.

Quote from: Zulu on May 23, 2010, 01:54:18 PM
Therefore, we shouldn't deal with the GPA as a group who are hell bent on creating a professional GAA and to prevent that happening we must fight them on every issue. The paranoia about professionalism should be put to bed and should be replaced by an outlook characterised by co-operation to achieve goals that are mutually beneficial to our IC players and the GAA as a whole.

Well that's very nice, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get you. The GPA is only out for one thing - the welfare of its members. There's nothing wrong with that, that's what unions / lobby groups do. That means that if the GPA explicitly excludes something that would be good for their members but bad for the GAA as a whole, they're not doing their job right. Therefore it is impossible to believe any protestations that that's not what they want.

QuoteTherefore it is impossible to believe any protestations that that's not what they want

They want what, professionalism? I know a few players that are GPA members and they don't think about professionalism from one week to the next though they would all like to get paid for playing GAA. They know it isn't possible and anyone with a modicum of sense knows it isn't possible so it shouldn't colour our dealings with an important component of our organisation.

I wouldnt put too much pass on Sean Og's statement. A player coming to the end of his career and feeling a little hard done by that his younger brouthers got an opportunity to play professional sport while he didnt.

On the other hand I think it wrong for the GAA to recognise the GPA as being a body that represents players. Every player is a member of the GAA. The function of a union is to represent the interests of a specific group of people in opposition to a controlling authority. How can we reconcile players being members of both the contolling authority and the GPA.

Quote from: Zulu on May 23, 2010, 06:06:14 PM
They want what, professionalism? I know a few players that are GPA members and they don't think about professionalism from one week to the next though they would all like to get paid for playing GAA. They know it isn't possible and anyone with a modicum of sense knows it isn't possible so it shouldn't colour our dealings with an important component of our organisation.

I think they want professionalism. Why wouldn't they want it, it'd be good for them. As for it being impossible, I think they doth protest too much. Of course it's possible. Whether it's desirable is another matter. If the GPA won't have that discussion - it is, after all, impossible - then it is they who are not contributing honestly to the debate

So tell me how it is possible, how do we fund it, how would we do it for both codes, and how would we get it through congress? There are far too many fundamental issues that would need to be radically changed in GAA structures for it ever be a possibility and even if all that could happen there isn't a hope it would get through congress. Christ those lads won't even vote for sensible minor alterations let alone a massive organisation changing thing like going professional.

You also seem to think the GPA is a united body, it isn't. Just like this board has people who disagree on many issues the GPA is made up of players who will have vastly differing views. In saying that, I agree most players would like a professional GAA but so would I. I'd love to make my living from coaching GAA but I know it isn't possible and I don't think that it would be good for the GAA longterm so I couldn't support any moves to turn it professional. I think most players would have similar feelings, i.e. it would be nice for me but isn't sustainable and wouldn't be good for the GAA as a whole and therefore I won't actively seek it.

Not to get too dramatic about it but the cold war dragged on, in part, because two countries thought the other was out to get them, when in reality neither was the evil force they painted the other to be. We don't need to aggravation in the GAA between administrators and players, we need co-operation. Unless people can show me how a professional GAA can come into existence then I think it is time to stop talking nonsense about professionalism and get down to talking about the best way forward for the GAA. We have real problems like championship structures, lack of presence in many cities, refereeing standards etc. so we don't need to be sidetracked by paranoid delusions.

You make some good points, Zulu, so I'm not going to relentlessly fisk what you say. Your observation re the GPA not being a monolith is particularly well made.

But I can't get away from the fact that that GPA is not doing it's job right if it is not exclusively thinking of the wellbeing of the its own membership. You say that we don't need aggravation between administrators and officials, but the GPA is in istself a source of aggravation. GPA members are all members of the GAA yet GAA administrators are not members of the GPA, so of course there is going to be friction. Issues like championship structures, lack of presence in many cities, refereeing standards . . . what exactly can the GPA bring to those issues that its members couldn't have done as members of the GAA? And why should we give their opinions more weight? To paraphrase the peasant in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, I didn't vote for you.

(One should note in the interests of full disclosure that I'm not a member of the association, so people can give my opinion zero weight  ;))

Saying that professionalism is a distraction isn't going to make the issue go away. People choose not to forget, and dismissing that as paranoid delusions isn't a good strategy for making them forget.

deiseach as you say we could around in circles for the night picking little holes and making valid (and probably not so valid) points but I always come back to the bottom line on this issue. A professional GAA would need to be voted in by the GAA membership and that simply isn't going to happen and even if ever IC player wanted it and was willing to go on strike for it we still wouldn't vote it in.

I agree the issue won't go away but it should because we have real issues that we need to tackle now. What role the GPA has in these other issues I'm not sure but I do think that IC players should have a voice in any rule or competition structure alterations. They don't seem to at the moment and as a result, we get the farce that is this handpass rule.

To me all this talk of a professional GAA being hoisted upon us by the GPA is akin to medieval king worried about some far off enemy, building ever higher walls while ignoring every day issues like sanitation and food supplies that will bring down his city far sooner than any distant enemy.

We should deal with real issues and treat the GPA with respect and honesty. If we do that I don't think we will have any problems with them in the future.

Zulu tell me if you can, what happens to Cork's 'fair play' financial award? Thought Reillers might have responded on another thread but the answer might well be relative to this thread.

Quote from: dowling on May 27, 2010, 12:26:09 AM
Zulu tell me if you can, what happens to Cork's 'fair play' financial award? Thought Reillers might have responded on another thread but the answer might well be relative to this thread.

Well as Donal Og is on the record in stating that he'd throw slabs of the Official Cork County board drink over the fence into the crowd if it conflicted with his own financial deals and sponsorship - we can probably all make an educated guess