Can't say I agree with Justin on this one getting rid of half the panel. Its his perogative but you'd wonder whether they have the replacements. i don't know enough about the limerick to know whether they do or not. Getting rid of lucey, o shaughnessy and moran is madness.
Andrew O Shaughnessy accoring to the Limerick Leader has been diagonsed with MS. Just 25- incurable as well. Heart goes out to him. Thats just awful,awful news.
Regardless of having the replacements was there not rumour they were acting the maggot?
Damian Reale has walked off the panel in protest.
Quote from: Minder on November 05, 2009, 10:35:37 PM
Regardless of having the replacements was there not rumour they were acting the maggot?
According to the limerick media Niall Moran doesn't drink or smoke and has been consistently one of their best forwards in the county. That sounds strange to me - if they have better players -fair enough. i'm just asking do they.
Quote from: INDIANA on November 05, 2009, 10:29:19 PM
Can't say I agree with Justin on this one getting rid of half the panel. Its his perogative but you'd wonder whether they have the replacements. i don't know enough about the limerick to know whether they do or not. Getting rid of lucey, o shaughnessy and moran is madness.
Andrew O Shaughnessy accoring to the Limerick Leader has been diagonsed with MS. Just 25- incurable as well. Heart goes out to him. Thats just awful,awful news.
Fairly puts things into perspective. Seriously bad news. Mickey Harte is running a big fight night in Fintona this Saturday night for MS.
Quote from: orangeman on November 05, 2009, 10:38:20 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 05, 2009, 10:29:19 PM
Can't say I agree with Justin on this one getting rid of half the panel. Its his perogative but you'd wonder whether they have the replacements. i don't know enough about the limerick to know whether they do or not. Getting rid of lucey, o shaughnessy and moran is madness.
Andrew O Shaughnessy accoring to the Limerick Leader has been diagonsed with MS. Just 25- incurable as well. Heart goes out to him. Thats just awful,awful news.
Fairly puts things into perspective. Seriously bad news. Mickey Harte is running a big fight night in Fintona this Saturday night for MS.
puts everything into perspective.
Not nice. I know a girl who got married last year and was diagnosed with it.
There can be different severities of it as far as I know, though no expert, so hopefully he has the least severe.
To get diagnosed with it young and know there's a lot of pain ahead of you must be tough.
Limerick hurling hasn't been right, even with an AIF appearance and semi this year, since Gary Kirby days from what I can see. They should be better than what they are but things like attitude may be what the issue is.
Gutted for the young lad O Shaughnessy. He's not even 25 yet. It really flings things into persepctive. Heart goes out to him, it's absolutely heartbreaking news for him. Awful, awful news.
Awful about O'Shaughnessy. Wish him all the best. An old friend of mine had it, its a terrible condition to have. hopefully Andrew's form of it wont be the worst.
Haven't taken the time to read into the situation with the managment. But it's just a pity as it seems like they have plenty of talent in both codes.
Shocking news, I thought his form had fairly collapsed since 07, looks like there was an underlying reason. The drugs for MS are much improved these days so hopefully he can manage his illness
Limerick's senior hurlers are expected to meet over the weekend to discuss recent events surrounding the new panel.
Manager Justin McCarthy caused a stir last week when omitting several big name players for the coming season - a move which led to Damien Reale stepping down in protest at the way in which the process was handled.
It is thought that some players are contemplating following Reale, while a player strike may also be discussed
I can't see any strike action by Limerick hurlers getting the same air play as the Cork ones - without a win in league or championship doesn't really get too many people exercised.
Quotewithout a win in league or championship doesn't really get too many people exercised.
They were beaten in last years semi-final and got to the final in the more recent past than Cork so not sure where that statement comes from...
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2009, 05:30:22 PM
Quotewithout a win in league or championship doesn't really get too many people exercised.
They were beaten in last years semi-final and got to the final in the more recent past than Cork so not sure where that statement comes from...
They had a handy run to this years semi and ambushed a knackered/complacent Waterford in '07.
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 04:56:55 PM
Limerick's senior hurlers are expected to meet over the weekend to discuss recent events surrounding the new panel.
Manager Justin McCarthy caused a stir last week when omitting several big name players for the coming season - a move which led to Damien Reale stepping down in protest at the way in which the process was handled.
It is thought that some players are contemplating following Reale, while a player strike may also be discussed
I can't see any strike action by Limerick hurlers getting the same air play as the Cork ones - without a win in league or championship doesn't really get too many people exercised.
I thought that defenders of grassroots GAA like yourself would be outraged by the goings on in Clare and Limerick, or is it only when 'successful' teams display the dreaded player power card? I suppose Limerick and Clare aren't as closely aligned to the GPA either so many of ye won't be too bothered about this one.
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 07:57:34 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 04:56:55 PM
Limerick's senior hurlers are expected to meet over the weekend to discuss recent events surrounding the new panel.
Manager Justin McCarthy caused a stir last week when omitting several big name players for the coming season - a move which led to Damien Reale stepping down in protest at the way in which the process was handled.
It is thought that some players are contemplating following Reale, while a player strike may also be discussed
I can't see any strike action by Limerick hurlers getting the same air play as the Cork ones - without a win in league or championship doesn't really get too many people exercised.
I thought that defenders of grassroots GAA like yourself would be outraged by the goings on in Clare and Limerick, or is it only when 'successful' teams display the dreaded player power card? I suppose Limerick and Clare aren't as closely aligned to the GPA either so many of ye won't be too bothered about this one.
Are they not alligned to the GPA ?? There's no cpmparison between Clare / Limerick and the boyos from Cork who'll be wondering what to do with themselves this winter.
QuoteThere's no cpmparison between Clare / Limerick and the boyos from Cork
Why?
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 08:24:50 PM
QuoteThere's no cpmparison between Clare / Limerick and the boyos from Cork
Why?
They're only youngsters compared to the Cork lads.
What? I presume you aren't referring to their actual age, because that would be surreal.
OM you make no sense whatsoever. You never have but even for you...
Minder they had to get to the semi to beat Waterford and again this year they got to the semi. Limerick are not AI contenders but they've got to the latter stages a lot over the last few years. They're not getting handy draws every year. So why have they and no one else got there?
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2009, 09:17:39 PM
OM you make no sense whatsoever. You never have but even for you...
Minder they had to get to the semi to beat Waterford and again this year they got to the semi. Limerick are not AI contenders but they've got to the latter stages a lot over the last few years. They're not getting handy draws every year. So why have they and no one else got there?
You missed it although it wasn't very clear I have to admit.
So can you clear up what you meant?
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 09:50:24 PM
So can you clear up what you meant?
Cork lads are veterans of the winter strike action at this stage unlike the possible strike being talked about in Clare. That's all.
Oh ok, so your objection to the Cork strike last year wasn't based on the treatment of Gerald or ignoring 'democracy' but simply because they had done it on more than one occassion?
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:05:35 PM
Oh ok, so your objection to the Cork strike last year wasn't based on the treatment of Gerald or ignoring 'democracy' but simply because they had done it on more than one occassion?
I think you know that's not the case.
I just hope that there isn't another strike or strikes this year.
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 09:53:17 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 09:50:24 PM
So can you clear up what you meant?
Cork lads are veterans of the winter strike action at this stage unlike the possible strike being talked about in Clare. That's all.
..Great to see your final true opinions come to light.
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 10:29:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:05:35 PM
Oh ok, so your objection to the Cork strike last year wasn't based on the treatment of Gerald or ignoring 'democracy' but simply because they had done it on more than one occassion?
I think you know that's not the case.
I just hope that there isn't another strike or strikes this year.
I haven't a clue what you think, I'll wait to see how this develops but I'll be interested to see if these Limerick and Clare lads get the same treatment from the defenders of the GAA as the Cork players did because as things stand there are major parallels.
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:37:17 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 10:29:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:05:35 PM
Oh ok, so your objection to the Cork strike last year wasn't based on the treatment of Gerald or ignoring 'democracy' but simply because they had done it on more than one occassion?
I think you know that's not the case.
I just hope that there isn't another strike or strikes this year.
I haven't a clue what you think, I'll wait to see how this develops but I'll be interested to see if these Limerick and Clare lads get the same treatment from the defenders of the GAA as the Cork players did because as things stand there are major parallels.
Limerick and Clare haven't got form in this regard at all but let's see how it goes. I'd be fairly certain however that Clare and Limerick will not experience the same trauma as was felt in Cork last winter.
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:37:17 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 10:29:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:05:35 PM
Oh ok, so your objection to the Cork strike last year wasn't based on the treatment of Gerald or ignoring 'democracy' but simply because they had done it on more than one occassion?
I think you know that's not the case.
I just hope that there isn't another strike or strikes this year.
I haven't a clue what you think, I'll wait to see how this develops but I'll be interested to see if these Limerick and Clare lads get the same treatment from the defenders of the GAA as the Cork players did because as things stand there are major parallels.
As regards the Clare situation I've already said on another thread that while I don't rate Mike Mac the Clare team has a range of uncommitted players who wouldn't be any use if they had Brian cody unless their attitude changed.
For the limerick situation I think Limerick people are baffled as regards why a totally committed player like niall Moran who is one of their top forwards has been dropped for inferior players. Shaughs as well but obviously the poor fella had extentuating circumstances there. But you'd wonder did the management even take an interest in the issues there.
Lucey wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea- very forceful in the dressing room. Top player thought but I can see why justin wouldn't want him on board.
I'll be honest I think Justin has lost it at this stage. thats hardly the same as Gerald Mc carthy situation who at least managed to pick the best players at his disposal. Justin hasn't even managed to do that. And if you're as well in with limerick Gaa as you appear to be you'll know things are afoot already.
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:37:17 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 10:29:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:05:35 PM
Oh ok, so your objection to the Cork strike last year wasn't based on the treatment of Gerald or ignoring 'democracy' but simply because they had done it on more than one occassion?
I think you know that's not the case.
I just hope that there isn't another strike or strikes this year.
I haven't a clue what you think, I'll wait to see how this develops but I'll be interested to see if these Limerick and Clare lads get the same treatment from the defenders of the GAA as the Cork players did because as things stand there are major parallels.
Limerick and Clare haven't got form in this regard at all but let's see how it goes. I'd be fairly certain however that Clare and Limerick will not experience the same trauma as was felt in Cork last winter.
What has that got to do with your opinion on the merits of this show of 'player power'?
QuoteAs regards the Clare situation I've already said on another thread that while I don't rate Mike Mac the Clare team has a range of uncommitted players who wouldn't be any use if they had Brian cody unless their attitude changed.
A democratically mandated manager who the players aren't happy with and want gone, errily similar to Cork last wouldn't you say?
QuoteFor the limerick situation I think Limerick people are baffled as regards why a totally committed player like niall Moran who is one of their top forwards has been dropped for inferior players. Shaughs as well but obviously the poor fella had extentuating circumstances there. But you'd wonder did the management even take an interest in the issues there.
Lucey wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea- very forceful in the dressing room. Top player thought but I can see why justin wouldn't want him on board.
I'll be honest I think Justin has lost it at this stage. thats hardly the same as Gerald Mc carthy situation who at least managed to pick the best players at his disposal. Justin hasn't even managed to do that. And if you're as well in with limerick Gaa as you appear to be you'll know things are afoot already.
There is plenty afoot indeed but again, McCarthy is the manager and rightly or wrongly dropped 12 players but is it not player power at play again? The Cork players we were told last year were possibly motivated by getting Gerald out because they wanted to secure their own places on the panel, which was nonsense. Now the Limerick lads seem to actually want the manager out so that some lads will get back on the panel and there is none of the outrage, strange.
By the way the Limerick lads weren't happy with McCarthy by the end of last year so this has been coming for some time but I'm just baffled by the lack of outrage on this site. I was one of the few to defend the Cork players for the last two years against some disgracfully personal comments from lads (many of whom, hadn't a clue) yet mirror situations in Limerick and Clare are developing without a whimper.
Without wishing to plough the same furrows, the Clare and Limerick disputes are not mirror images of the Cork disputes, as you would like to believe.
Explain (with a bit of detail please)?
Limerick manager was in situ after getting to a semi final and getting bate out the gate by Tipp- he drops a few players in the closed season, and the players get annoyed and a few conspire to get rid of him.
Clare's manager last year got rid of a player for disciplinary reasons - the season goes on and had a horrible season. The players then decide he's not for them.
Cork don't win the AI under Gerard even though they got to semi final and giving KK a good game in HQ and they get rid of him after being at loggerheads with the CB for almost a decade over some issues totally unrelated to hurling and having had experience of similar strike action.
So not mirror images.
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 11:08:15 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:37:17 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 10:29:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 10:05:35 PM
Oh ok, so your objection to the Cork strike last year wasn't based on the treatment of Gerald or ignoring 'democracy' but simply because they had done it on more than one occassion?
I think you know that's not the case.
I just hope that there isn't another strike or strikes this year.
I haven't a clue what you think, I'll wait to see how this develops but I'll be interested to see if these Limerick and Clare lads get the same treatment from the defenders of the GAA as the Cork players did because as things stand there are major parallels.
Limerick and Clare haven't got form in this regard at all but let's see how it goes. I'd be fairly certain however that Clare and Limerick will not experience the same trauma as was felt in Cork last winter.
What has that got to do with your opinion on the merits of this show of 'player power'?
QuoteAs regards the Clare situation I've already said on another thread that while I don't rate Mike Mac the Clare team has a range of uncommitted players who wouldn't be any use if they had Brian cody unless their attitude changed.
A democratically mandated manager who the players aren't happy with and want gone, errily similar to Cork last wouldn't you say?
QuoteFor the limerick situation I think Limerick people are baffled as regards why a totally committed player like niall Moran who is one of their top forwards has been dropped for inferior players. Shaughs as well but obviously the poor fella had extentuating circumstances there. But you'd wonder did the management even take an interest in the issues there.
Lucey wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea- very forceful in the dressing room. Top player thought but I can see why justin wouldn't want him on board.
I'll be honest I think Justin has lost it at this stage. thats hardly the same as Gerald Mc carthy situation who at least managed to pick the best players at his disposal. Justin hasn't even managed to do that. And if you're as well in with limerick Gaa as you appear to be you'll know things are afoot already.
There is plenty afoot indeed but again, McCarthy is the manager and rightly or wrongly dropped 12 players but is it not player power at play again? The Cork players we were told last year were possibly motivated by getting Gerald out because they wanted to secure their own places on the panel, which was nonsense. Now the Limerick lads seem to actually want the manager out so that some lads will get back on the panel and there is none of the outrage, strange.
By the way the Limerick lads weren't happy with McCarthy by the end of last year so this has been coming for some time but I'm just baffled by the lack of outrage on this site. I was one of the few to defend the Cork players for the last two years against some disgracfully personal comments from lads (many of whom, hadn't a clue) yet mirror situations in Limerick and Clare are developing without a whimper.
I agree on the clare situation. very similar to Cork in my view. Bunch of over-rated players a lot of whom are past it calling for a managers's head when its them that are at fault. The lack of outrage is down to the fact Mike Mac isn't a well liked individual. Gerald was a star and very well liked countrywide.
I don't believe the Limerick situation is the same. I think this is a clear case of the manager losing the plot but I don't agree with reale and Ollie Moran organising the campaign through the media. If he wants to step aside he should do so without playing it through the media and let things take their own course. This ensures the limerick case will become a circus. Which it is set to become in the coming days. If both players made representations to the county board to through the proper channels they would get a fair hearing because the limerick county board is split down the middle.
Cork unfortunately set the precedent of using the media. Its a pity clare anad limerick are using these channels as well. But its going to become more commonplace.
I think these situations are just different flavours of the Cork (and Offaly to be fair) situations. Slightly different circumstances, but the same core issue. Players want the manager out. They want to work with someone who they feel can get the best out of them. The question of whether there is any more to get out is moot.
What is, I think, undeniable is that the relative success of the Cork strikers has inspired this sort of action by inter county players from other counties.
I think that's sad. Strike should be the nuclear option. I think Cork jumped to it way too soon in their disputes with the CB (essentially the difference here), and Offaly, Clare and Limerick seem to be skipping all the preliminary steps before a strike on the same basis.
I still question how amateur players, who can be replaced pretty easily in order to field a team, can go on strike, but that's semantics I suppose.
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 11:47:57 PM
Limerick manager was in situ after getting to a semi final and getting bate out the gate by Tipp- he drops a few players in the closed season, and the players get annoyed and a few conspire to get rid of him.
Clare's manager last year got rid of a player for disciplinary reasons - the season goes on and had a horrible season. The players then decide he's not for them.
Cork don't win the AI under Gerard even though they got to semi final and giving KK a good game in HQ and they get rid of him after being at loggerheads with the CB for almost a decade over some issues totally unrelated to hurling and having had experience of similar strike action.
So not mirror images.
You're having a laugh right? Let me see if I can get this straight, you think that the Limerick and Clare situations are different because the players have a problem with their managers (both of whom have been involved, as coaches, in AI winning teams by the way) but the Cork lads were only using Gerald as a means to get at the CB and had no actual issue with Gerald at all. Is that right? And if it is, you think the Cork situation was as bad as you declared (repeatedly) last year while the situations this year are ok or justified?
Quoteagree on the clare situation. very similar to Cork in my view. Bunch of over-rated players a lot of whom are past it calling for a managers's head when its them that are at fault.
A bit simplistic in fairness Indiana, the Clare players are better than they showed last year and if the rumours of training on the morning of league games are true it raises serious questions about Mike Macs suitability for this level of sport.
QuoteThe lack of outrage is down to the fact Mike Mac isn't a well liked individual. Gerald was a star and very well liked countrywide.
That's no justifuication whatsoever and it certainly isn't a valid one on this board as most posters know neither man, player moves against managers are either acceptable or not.
QuoteI don't believe the Limerick situation is the same. I think this is a clear case of the manager losing the plot
I think Justins faults were well known prior to his appointment and in truth I doubted it would ever work, though I'm surprised at how quickly it has unravelled. I think most folk in Limerick think only 3 or 4 of the 12 were harshly done by but that they should have all been contacted and told why they were being dropped. either way surely lads around here think that a manager has tehy right to pick any panel he wants, after all we were told last year that nobody can be part of the next seasons panel until it is picked so how can they go on strike, so if that is true how can any Limerick hurler who isn't picked for the 2010 panel be upset when he was never on it in the first place?
never said cos he wasnt well liked it was justified, just thats the reason. Thats the modern world.
The problem justin has is that those 3 and 4 players are the difference between being competitive and not being. I agree 7 of the 12 are replaceable. But lucey reale moran and shaughs are irreplaceable. Ollie moran has retired as well.
He didn't drop Reale and Shaughs is out anyway, so the question remains are the non-existent panel (according to some) justified in kicking up a fuss over their manager dropping 2 or 3 players, that while good, have hardly set the IC alight?
Quotenever said cos he wasnt well liked it was justified, just thats the reason.
So are you telling me that all the lads who abused the Cork players here last year did so because they liked a man they never met and are not doing so this year because they don't like a different man they never met?
Quote from: Zulu on November 07, 2009, 02:42:43 PM
He didn't drop Reale and Shaughs is out anyway, so the question remains are the non-existent panel (according to some) justified in kicking up a fuss over their manager dropping 2 or 3 players, that while good, have hardly set the IC alight?
Quotenever said cos he wasnt well liked it was justified, just thats the reason.
So are you telling me that all the lads who abused the Cork players here last year did so because they liked a man they never met and are not doing so this year because they don't like a different man they never met?
Zulu you don't have to meet someone to have respect for them. I've never met Jonny Wilkinson but i respect him. The reason I respect him is because of the way he's carried himself in the public domain. I've never met a lot of the cork hurlers but I'd have little or no respect for them because of the way they've carried themselves.
People don't like Mike Mac because he has zero personaility and comes across as boorish, army sergeant type and because people don't rate him as a coach and see the clare success as all loughnane's doing- which it largely was in my view. Gerald Mc Carthy was a well respected, well liked individual.
You and me don;t get to decide the public's perception of people.
QuoteYou and me don;t get to decide the public's perception of people.
That's what you're presuming to do Indiana, you don't know anymore than I do what the general public think of either man. Besides are you saying that the facts of the Cork or Clare situation are irrelevant, that the people who abused the Cork players and justified it by all sorts of ridiculous excuses were really doing so because they liked Gerald and not some of the players., however they aren't offering a similar opinion on these situations because they don't like Mike Mac or Justin McCarthy and do like the players?
Most people though the cork players were in the wrong. and they are a high profile team Zulu.
Clare aren't a high profile team , the papers don't really care because it won't sell papers. Clare are not especially competitive. Clare never won a competitive game last season either which isn't helping mike Mac. All of those things contribute to the public's perception. Its not right but unfortunately that life.
As regards Limerick Justin hasn't a whole lot of support for his actions thats half his problem media wise. He's getting hammered by the local papers as well. But the Cork hurlers started this process of the trial of managers by the media. And its going to get worse. I'm seeing it in certain clubs in Dublin right now at senior club level who want to get rid of thier managers on the same basis.
Indiana, I'm not talking about the media or even the general public, I'm talking about the people who post here, the ones who abused the Cork players and declared that their real motivations were money, profile, their position on the panel etc. yet have nothing to say about these situations. Since they represent the grassroots GAA man, surely these guys are as appalled at what is going on in lower profile counties as they were in Cork? And if not, why not?
Just to clarify I think there all as bad as each other. They have obviously learned from the cork debacle. It really is getting embarrassing. Is club hurling no good to these boys anymore?
Why do youse boys reckon justin excluded them from the panel? I'd say it was for well considered reasons. Reasons that he doesn't need to explain to the media or Joe public. Who is mean't to pick the panels these days? The manager? the players? the media? or maybe we're progressing nicely to any x factor or strictly style phone vote?
Quote from: Zulu on November 07, 2009, 06:10:51 PM
Indiana, I'm not talking about the media or even the general public, I'm talking about the people who post here, the ones who abused the Cork players and declared that their real motivations were money, profile, their position on the panel etc. yet have nothing to say about these situations. Since they represent the grassroots GAA man, surely these guys are as appalled at what is going on in lower profile counties as they were in Cork? And if not, why not?
you'll have to ask them that. My position is that I haven't much sympathy for the clare players stance. In my view you'd need kofi annan to manage them.
I don't agree with the limerick players methods of trialling by media. At the same time I think Justin has lost it but their are channels players can go through. The limerick leader isn't it in my view.
But the precedent has been set.
Quoteyou'll have to ask them that.
I thought that's what I was doing!
QuoteJust to clarify I think there all as bad as each other. They have obviously learned from the cork debacle. It really is getting embarrassing. Is club hurling no good to these boys anymore?
Fair enough skull1.
QuoteWhy do youse boys reckon justin excluded them from the panel?
My understanding is some of them didn't agree with him or his methods and weren't shy about saying it. The problem for Justin is I don't think too many of the panel were impressed by his methods and getting rid of some of teh main men might have the opposite effect to that which he intended.
Quote from: Zulu on November 07, 2009, 06:27:49 PM
QuoteWhy do youse boys reckon justin excluded them from the panel?
My understanding is some of them didn't agree with him or his methods and weren't shy about saying it. The problem for Justin is I don't think too many of the panel were impressed by his methods and getting rid of some of teh main men might have the opposite effect to that which he intended.
I'm reading that they voiced their views in very inappropriate and disrectful ways Zulu?
Not too sure at the moment, I've been speaking to some of the Limerick footballers but they didn't know the fine print yet. The Limerick situation is a tough one to figure out as the Limerick players haven't really performed or been happy with anyone recently and many would question their attitude (myself included). While every situation is different and the justificatiion for any player action has yet to be established here, I feel this will be a growing trend because players are more aware of coaching 'best practice' now. Bringing in ex-county players or coaches like Babs, Pa Joe Whelehan, Tom Ryan or Mike Mac or Justine McCarthy won't work with the top squads. Professional conditioning coaches, capable of delivering top quality drills and tactically aware selectors will be demanded by all teams. IMO that's the way it should be as we ask a lot from the players and reputation should nolonger get fellas top jobs.
Whilst i agree with you zulu, the number of coaches / selectors who fit that criteria is very very small. the standard of coaching of our games at the higest level - football and hurling - is criminal at the moment
When will IC players start looking in the mirror?
I'm quite pleased Justin has taken a new broom approach to the coming season here in Limerick . Strong determined leadership is what Limerick hurling has been crying out for , for a long long time . I have no time whatsoever for stroppy players and their childish tantrums . Out the gap and rightly so is where all of those 12 players are and well should be with more to follow if necessary .
Well done Justin . For the remainder of his time in Limerick I truly wish that he speaks to his players earnestly and inspires confidence and unyielding loyalty to him and each other .
Quote from: Zulu on November 06, 2009, 07:57:34 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 06, 2009, 04:56:55 PM
Limerick's senior hurlers are expected to meet over the weekend to discuss recent events surrounding the new panel.
Manager Justin McCarthy caused a stir last week when omitting several big name players for the coming season - a move which led to Damien Reale stepping down in protest at the way in which the process was handled.
It is thought that some players are contemplating following Reale, while a player strike may also be discussed
I can't see any strike action by Limerick hurlers getting the same air play as the Cork ones - without a win in league or championship doesn't really get too many people exercised.
I thought that defenders of grassroots GAA like yourself would be outraged by the goings on in Clare and Limerick, or is it only when 'successful' teams display the dreaded player power card? I suppose Limerick and Clare aren't as closely aligned to the GPA either so many of ye won't be too bothered about this one.
You're quite right Zulu, posters who slated the Cork strikers should be doing the same here on these issues. There's no discernible difference in what is going on.
Why should players be able to determine who a manager is or what he does? What is the point in a county having a process for selection of a manager if a group of players can veto the selection and overturn a county committee decision? And not only does that veto apply to a county committee but also to the county membership who put that committee in place.
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 08, 2009, 12:46:53 AM
I'm quite pleased Justin has taken a new broom approach to the coming season here in Limerick . Strong determined leadership is what Limerick hurling has been crying out for , for a long long time . I have no time whatsoever for stroppy players and their childish tantrums . Out the gap and rightly so is where all of those 12 players are and well should be with more to follow if necessary .
Well done Justin . For the remainder of his time in Limerick I truly wish that he speaks to his players earnestly and inspires confidence and unyielding loyalty to him and each other .
Yep I'm sure all MS sufferers nationwide will agree with you.
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 01:55:13 PM
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 08, 2009, 12:46:53 AM
I'm quite pleased Justin has taken a new broom approach to the coming season here in Limerick . Strong determined leadership is what Limerick hurling has been crying out for , for a long long time . I have no time whatsoever for stroppy players and their childish tantrums . Out the gap and rightly so is where all of those 12 players are and well should be with more to follow if necessary .
Well done Justin . For the remainder of his time in Limerick I truly wish that he speaks to his players earnestly and inspires confidence and unyielding loyalty to him and each other .
Yep I'm sure all MS sufferers nationwide will agree with you.
Fair enough criticism Indy , I overlooked A O S' illness , I'm sorry if I offended anyone .
This is the managers call here , those 12 lads and others have not shown proper form at county level . Justin must be completely respected and not second guessed . Consistency is what it's all about and if this panel clear out is what is necessary to get that then so it .
There will be no strike in Limerick . ::)
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 08, 2009, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 01:55:13 PM
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 08, 2009, 12:46:53 AM
I'm quite pleased Justin has taken a new broom approach to the coming season here in Limerick . Strong determined leadership is what Limerick hurling has been crying out for , for a long long time . I have no time whatsoever for stroppy players and their childish tantrums . Out the gap and rightly so is where all of those 12 players are and well should be with more to follow if necessary .
Well done Justin . For the remainder of his time in Limerick I truly wish that he speaks to his players earnestly and inspires confidence and unyielding loyalty to him and each other .
Yep I'm sure all MS sufferers nationwide will agree with you.
Fair enough criticism Indy , I overlooked A O S' illness , I'm sorry if I offended anyone .
This is the managers call here , those 12 lads and others have not shown proper form at county level . Justin must be completely respected and not second guessed . Consistency is what it's all about and if this panel clear out is what is necessary to get that then so it .
7/8 of the players gone even Limerick people wouldn't disagree with. He won't get away with the lucey and moran ones though. If Reale doesn't want to play thats his perogative. Campaigning through the press won't solve it.
I don't see why he won't get away with it to be honest , he's the manager and that's it . Those two players you mention and the rest for that matter have not had the door completely shut on them . People really tend to get carried away with negative spin . For those who are calling for strike action , I really can't comprehend why . It's soul destroying for long suffering Limerick supporters to be hearing this kind of thing . The manager's word is final .
well we're approaching the stage now where nobody will be able to manage at this level beyond a year. Players may be giving up there time- but they'd want to remember what they do between the white lines also contributes towards performances.
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 04:41:26 PM
well we're approaching the stage now where nobody will be able to manage at this level beyond a year. Players may be giving up there time- but they'd want to remember what they do between the white lines also contributes towards performances.
I'm not sure but I hope you're wrong Re. the first part of your post but I couldn't agree more with you on the second . The players would seriously want to cop themselves on now and drop this loser image . I'm not getting any younger and neither are they .
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 04:41:26 PM
well we're approaching the stage now where nobody will be able to manage at this level beyond a year. Players may be giving up there time- but they'd want to remember what they do between the white lines also contributes towards performances.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Indiana but they are adults who can recognize whether a manager is going about his business in a proper manner. You'll always have players who might feel the manager isn't doing it right or that training could be better but when whole panels are questioning a manager there has to be something there. This idea that managers manage and players play is all good and well but many IC managers are no longer up to the level required. The players are definitely the best that a county has to offer and much more is expected of them now than in years gone by, it isn't unreasonable for them to expect the same of the men that lead them. If the support structures are right I think the players will accept any decision the manager makes and would, in fact, want him to shaft any player not making the necessary committment but when the manager isn't living up to expectations they are less likely now to put up with it.
The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.
There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.
Quote from: Zulu on November 08, 2009, 04:54:25 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 04:41:26 PM
well we're approaching the stage now where nobody will be able to manage at this level beyond a year. Players may be giving up there time- but they'd want to remember what they do between the white lines also contributes towards performances.
but when the manager isn't living up to expectations .
Noble intentions Zulu but Utopian management doesn't exist .
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 05:00:55 PM
The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.
There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.
I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.
Quote from: Zulu on November 08, 2009, 05:13:52 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 05:00:55 PM
The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.
There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.
I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.
I agree with you for what you didn't say , that management is a younger man's game but when players start to dictate I tend to get turned off straight away . Let Justin build a team and see what happens . I don't think people should be making a big deal out of this .
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 08, 2009, 05:36:47 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 08, 2009, 05:13:52 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 05:00:55 PM
The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.
There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.
I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.
I agree with you for what you didn't say , that management is a younger man's game but when players start to dictate I tend to get turned off straight away . Let Justin build a team and see what happens . I don't think people should be making a big deal out of this .
I don't have a problem with players voicing their opinion, their not getting paid and they shouldn't have to suffer in scilence. But they obviously can't dictate willy nilly what goes on either, and they have to be stepping up to the plate themselves, something that neither the Limerick or Clare squads have necessarily done in years gone by. However, as far as I know only two Limerick players have walked away from the panel after Justins cull, though more will follow so in essence they have done what they are entitled to do. If people think Justin can continue with the panel that will be left then so be it, we'll have to see how they get on. At the momenet Justin did what he is entitled to do, pick a panel, and the players did what they are entitled to do, walk away from it if they don't like what they see.
Quote from: Zulu on November 08, 2009, 05:45:35 PM
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 08, 2009, 05:36:47 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 08, 2009, 05:13:52 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 08, 2009, 05:00:55 PM
The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.
There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.
I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.
I agree with you for what you didn't say , that management is a younger man's game but when players start to dictate I tend to get turned off straight away . Let Justin build a team and see what happens . I don't think people should be making a big deal out of this .
At the momenet Justin did what he is entitled to do, pick a panel, and the players did what they are entitled to do, walk away from it if they don't like what they see.
You're spot on there .
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 08, 2009, 07:01:24 PM
Quote from: Zulu on November 08, 2009, 05:45:35 PM
At the momenet Justin did what he is entitled to do, pick a panel, and the players did what they are entitled to do, walk away from it if they don't like what they see.
You're spot on there .
Agreed.
If justin binned twelve players but then made broad brush comments in the media ( I don't know what has been said to be honest) which were only meant for a few of those 12 then I can see why that would seriously piss some of the players off. Sounds like he could have got away with his decisions if he'd have communicated better with those involved as well as the remaining panelists
Quote from: Minder on November 08, 2009, 12:22:47 AM
When will IC players start looking in the mirror?
Sunday November 08 2009
T his time of year is dangerous for the GAA. Players have nothing to do but plot for the future and the first thing they train their guns on is the manager. It is the new target for all dissatisfaction. If a team loses, the manager gets the blame; when they win, the players have pulled it off.
Limerick and Clare hurlers have been added to the disaffected ranks. In Clare, the players want the manager to go while in Limerick the jury is still out on what they want. Players should be very careful for what they wish for in case it comes true. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don't.
There are many GAA administrators who would like to blame all of this on Cork. When the players there took on what was perceived to be the most powerful county board and won, it emboldened the rest of the country. In reality, it is a no contest. The players have all the power but with that power comes many responsibilities and in some cases it is not used either wisely or well. If players decide they don't want a manager, then it is game, set and match to the players. But in doing that they can create a bigger mess than what they started out with.
A manager without the support of his players is a dead man walking and is better off away from such a scene. Yet I wonder how often is player unrest fermented by those whose private gripes about being dropped or substituted is then taken to a new level?
It then becomes a 'shaft the manager' issue with the new boss soon becoming the bogeyman when he does exactly the same. Counties, and indeed clubs, are full of small-minded, petty individuals who can't face up to the fact that they are useless articles on the pitch and a general annoyance off it. Not the sort to follow into a dispute with anyone.
So the Cork revolution is not for export around the country. The big difference between the Rebels and what is happening elsewhere is that they had a proven pedigree of winning. They knew exactly how to go about it and were not willing to compromise on standards. That is the way it should be. However, a lot of other counties are putting the cart before the horse. They demand change, but are not performing on the pitch.
Players could argue the very opposite and say they have no chance of winning anything because of poor management. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? And who knows best about picking managers, the players or the county board?
Over the last few years there have been rows over the selection of managers or between managers and players in Cork, Limerick, Offaly, Clare, Donegal, Down, Armagh, Meath and Cavan. This list is not exhaustive either as many stabbings never get to the media. In Ulster, old tribal loyalties have broken down completely when it comes to taking management positions outside their own counties; it is a case of Ulster saying yes, yes, yes. In Monaghan, Down and Armagh, the movement of personnel across county boundaries this year has been unprecedented, although it can only be a healthy development. The idea of not moving outside some artificial line on a map is well outdated. But this movement has left bad feeling too as others have been caught in the crossfire.
When players are asked who they want when it comes to managing a team, they often have not worked out things beyond getting rid of the man in position. It must have come as some surprise to those who have had Mick O'Dwyer that instead of having some new scientific model of playing football, he went back to tried-and-trusted methods, most of it based on playing football. And some of these methods are what players have probably rebelled against with other managers.
If Brian Cody, Jack O'Connor or Mickey Harte went to some other county and preached a simple message of hard work, self-sacrifice and co-operation, players would probably suspect they were holding something back.
It gets back to whether it is the players or the management who are most important in getting success. There is no doubt in my mind that the catalyst for change and All-Ireland wins came in Meath because of Sean Boylan.
There are other counties who might claim they won things despite the management, not because of them. This always seemed to me to be a very small-minded and mean-spirited way to look at success. Winning at the top level is dependent on a thousand little things going right. For want of a nail the war was lost.
Right now we are seeing the old and new worlds of the GAA colliding. Players fresh out of third-level colleges bursting with new ideas and an old-style administration structure which appoints managers who often find little
favour with players. When that management group run their course, the circus starts again.
Yet in all of this there is a suspension of reality. The majority of football counties have no chance of winning the All-Ireland while hurling is a three- or four-horse race -- at best. So players' frustrations with management is in a way misdirected. Of course they can't just throw in the towel but many are swimming against a raging tide and no change of management will work.
At club level, the problem of player unrest is just as prevalent. The normal approach now is to demand an outside manager who comes at a price from €100 a night upwards in many cases.
Eventually, the penny drops. The problems of players not turning up or general lack of commitment rarely improves with a different voice, even if fresh thinking has transformed many clubs. In a more difficult economic environment, clubs will have to go back to sorting out their problems from within. That demands responsibility from players. Instead of taking aim at the easy target, a lot of players should take a good honest look at themselves and ask whether shooting the messenger would solve all problems.
Of course there are poor managers but the present situation where players can decide the manager's fate is untenable. The successful counties and clubs place great stock on co-operation in getting the right man and then sticking with him. In many other places players need mirrors, not a change of management.
Sunday Independent
Lads and lassies - question about the 16 year old scoring 1-13 for Adare yesterday. My question is - is he legal to play under the rules on age?
Yeah he could play for the county team if called up. You cant play senior if your U16 so he's obviously in his first year of minor
Taken from AFR, which in turn got it from the Limerick Leader;
By Jerome O'Connell
GAA Correspondent
LIMERICK hurling was plunged deep into crisis this Wednesday night with further withdrawals from Justin McCarthy's inter-county hurling panel.
The latest to quit are Brian Geary, Donal O'Grady, Seamus Hickey and Wayne McNamara.
As Ireland's World Cup soccer torture was unfolding in Paris, Limerick GAA officials were meeting in the Gaelic Grounds where confirmation of the latest withdrawals was announced to the executive officers.
Leader Sport understands that the quartet contacted Limerick GAA chairman Liam Lenihan last evening to confirm their decision to follow Damien Reale and James Ryan out of the panel in protest at the manner of McCarthy's wholesale changes.
Three weeks ago Justin McCarthy called a meeting of the remainder of his 2009 panel to plan for the new season and it became clear that regulars such as Mark Foley, Stephen Lucey, Niall Moran, Andrew O'Shaughnessy, Donie Ryan and Mike O'Brien had all been omitted.
Within days, Damien Reale and James Ryan withdrew from the panel in protest.
Now a further four players have departed leaving McCarthy, Brian Ryan and Liam Garvey with just 12 players remaining from the 2009 panel that was beaten by 24-points in the All-Ireland semi-final by Tipperary.
And posters on AFR have said Gavin O'Mahoney and Brian Murray are gone too. It would appear that Justin will now have to stand down but it's interesting that the Limericl players have taken the advice posters here gave to the Cork lads and simply walked away. It'll have the same result as the Cork strike however and Justin will not be over the Limerick senior hurlers this year, not unless he can get those players back anyway.
So if Justin does go Zulu and those players who have walked away as well as those dropped by McCarthy come back doesn't that mean that the players are in effect picking the panel? And does this represent a misplaced loyalty to each other rather than to the county?
Would it be unfair to suggest that any new manager would in effect be picked by the players also? With the way things are now in counties any manager whose views on everthing about a team differ from the players is probably on a loser from the start.
The bottom line here is that players have the right to walk away from a team (any team) if they can't commit to it, whether that is for personal or playing reasons. The Limerick players obviously feel that Justin isn't right for the job and are walking away, now the Limerick CB and Justin need to decide if they should move on without most of last years panel, if they do that's fine, if they don't well that's fine too.
I don't think it is acceptable to say that a) players should play IC if they are picked or b) that if they do play they should continue to play even if they are very unhappy with the quality of preparation.
They are volunteering their time and effort, it is only reasonable to do that if they management are delivering a top quality support structure. Like I've said, supported by the Tony Griffen interview in the Tribune, the modern player expects modern preparation and old school coaches need to either get up to date with that, surround themselves with people that can deliver it or get out of teh IC coaching game.
Quote
The bottom line here is that players have the right to walk away from a team (any team) if they can't commit to it, whether that is for personal or playing reasons. The Limerick players obviously feel that Justin isn't right for the job and are walking away, now the Limerick CB and Justin need to decide if they should move on without most of last years panel, if they do that's fine, if they don't well that's fine too.
I agree
QuoteI don't think it is acceptable to say that a) players should play IC if they are picked or b) that if they do play they should continue to play even if they are very unhappy with the quality of preparation.
I agree although there'll always be some players who will always be disgruntled (especially if they don't make the starting 15...what should they do???...for another thread I suppose) .......but you'd surely agree that it appears that some of the players are behaving like sheep and following the herd in this instance......so really this is a group tactic to oust the manager rather than "individual personal decisions"
Quote
They are volunteering their time and effort, it is only reasonable to do that if they management are delivering a top quality support structure. Like I've said, supported by the Tony Griffen interview in the Tribune, the modern player expects modern preparation and old school coaches need to either get up to date with that, surround themselves with people that can deliver it or get out of teh IC coaching game.
Not alot to disagree with there either I suppose Zulu. I wonder is that what is driving a lot of them to drink the bit out when they're volunteering all that time and effort ;). Seriously, could Tony not have shown a bit of balance and dwelt on the players responsibilty to adhere to their responsibilties when it comes to modern preparation? It cuts both ways. Unless both parties admit failings and show a proper willingness to change together then they may as well pack the whole thing up. Once this whole pandering to spoilt brat behaviour begins, nothing good will come out of it because the players won't have learned that they need to take responsibilty for things not going right as much as the management. The next manager will simply be the next scape goat.
Quoteagree although there'll always be some players who will always be disgruntled (especially if they don't make the starting 15...what should they do???...for another thread I suppose) .......but you'd surely agree that it appears that some of the players are behaving like sheep and following the herd in this instance......so really this is a group tactic to oust the manager rather than "individual personal decisions"
Well you could accuse players of behaving like sheep if they continued to play for a guy they felt wasn't any good just becasue he was appointed to the job. And I feel there is a big difference between a player(s) who are disgruntled because they aren't on the team and a whole panel who are unhappy because of the methods of the manager.
Quotecould Tony not have shown a bit of balance and dwelt on the players responsibilty to adhere to their responsibilties when it comes to modern preparation? It cuts both ways. Unless both parties admit failings and show a proper willingness to change together then they may as well pack the whole thing up.
I'd have to say that I'd most likely walk away from a set up where the manager has us training on the morning of a league game (an affront to supporters who travelled and paid into that game too by the way) and rants about hating the opposition rather than tactics. There's just too much effort involved for lads to be doing that and getting back what McNamara was delivering.
In saying all that I do find some players a complete pain in the backside myself, I've coached a few different teams in teh past year or two and I have to really work at not planting one or two of them such would be their attitude but as with all coaches you have to see the bigger picture and if I want I can always walk a way too.
I'm glad they've decided to go . Limerick doesn't need hurlers that piss and moan when their team mates are legitimately dropped . I'm disgusted with the panel .
If Justin has any sense he'll just walk away. Because he's only postponing the inevitable circus. We'll see whether the limerick players accept any responsibility for performance levels under a new coach but I think Justin is a bit out of touch with the modern game at this stage. Justin should have taken the dublin job when he was asked- would have suited him perfectly because there were no expectatations.
Quote from: Zulu on November 19, 2009, 03:40:21 PM
The bottom line here is that players have the right to walk away from a team (any team) if they can't commit to it, whether that is for personal or playing reasons. The Limerick players obviously feel that Justin isn't right for the job and are walking away, now the Limerick CB and Justin need to decide if they should move on without most of last years panel, if they do that's fine, if they don't well that's fine too.
I don't think it is acceptable to say that a) players should play IC if they are picked or b) that if they do play they should continue to play even if they are very unhappy with the quality of preparation.
They are volunteering their time and effort, it is only reasonable to do that if they management are delivering a top quality support structure. Like I've said, supported by the Tony Griffen interview in the Tribune, the modern player expects modern preparation and old school coaches need to either get up to date with that, surround themselves with people that can deliver it or get out of teh IC coaching game.
Nothing to disagree with there Zulu but you have painted a black and white picture that's a little too simplistic.
Players aren't simply walking away, they're firing parting shots and/or expressing solidarity with other players. If Justin goes and those players come back, and the ones dropped, you would have to say they have influenced a managerial appointment and panel selection.
How far will this go? Will it get to a stage where players run county teams and CBs become fundraisers for them?
Of course managers make mistakes and I dare say most would admit to that, in preparation or during matches. And their mistakes can be costly. But sometimes players can blame managers unfairly as can the general public. But we don't always know what thinking is behind everything. I doubt very much if McNamara thought training on the day of a league game was necessary to improve fitness for that match and on the face of it it would be difficult to say that was anything other than wrong. But do you know why he did it? I would like to know the thinking behind it and maybe McNamara feels justified but as a rule managers don't expose their players to public criticism. Was this the 'old school' approach you refer to. And what is 'old school'? I'd say every county manager applies to some degree a scientific approach to training and matches but everything doesn't come down to science.
If I remember correctly when Donal OGrady took the Cork job he found the players couldn't tackle, hook and block properly and he put serious work into that. The cream of Cork couldn't do something basic. Now is that an indictment on the players or previous managers? Should county managers be responsible for ensuring players at that level have a basic skill or should those players have ensured they had the skill? Why did those players not know they lacked this basic skill? Maybe in Limerick and Clare there are players lacking something which the managers have noticed and are trying to address and maybe need to address before moving on to a higher level.
All we really hear are the players' complaints or demands and I don't think the increasing frequency of this can be dissassociated from the GPA. Maybe managers should go to the papers and highlight individual players weaknesses and refer to particular matches to show evidence.
If players want to walk away because of some disatisfaction no problem. Wasn't it Carter who walked away from Kilkenny because he couldn't get a starting place he believed was his? Is Brian Cody 'old school'?
QuoteHow far will this go? Will it get to a stage where players run county teams and CBs become fundraisers for them?
I don't think anything like that will happen, as I've said already, I think these disputes are arising from generational differences in how teams should be prepared. I would argue that many players don't know how to prepare a team either but they do know what's not good even if it's only because they've trained under better coaches.
QuoteI doubt very much if McNamara thought training on the day of a league game was necessary to improve fitness for that match and on the face of it it would be difficult to say that was anything other than wrong. But do you know why he did it? I would like to know the thinking behind it and maybe McNamara feels justified
I don't know what his thinking was but the bottom line is that tehre is no justification for a 2 hour training sesion on the morning of a match. You can't justify it and it raises serious questions as to Mike Macs abilities as a coach, if the players had been in the pub the night before having 4 or 5 pints they'd be no worse off than having trained for 2 hours the morning of the match and what do you think the reaction would have been if that came to light?
QuoteAnd what is 'old school'?
Old school is someone that isn't preparing teams to the current best standards.
QuoteIs Brian Cody 'old school'?
I'm sure Brian has a number of weaknesses but he is smart enough to realize this a surround himself with people who can do certain things better than himself. Mickey Harte and Jack O'Connor likewise, and Liam Sheedy for that matter. This is the way to go, the likes of Justin and Mike Mac can't coach the modern player so if they want to be a manager they need to get people in to do the physical preparation and possibly other areas too.
How can anyone quantify how far all this will go Zulu? But here's the thing. If Justin and McNamara go it will be because players decided so, not the CB, in the same way Cork players decided Gerald McCarthy should go and the footballers there previously thought Teddy Holland should also go. And what about the Offaly footballers earlier in the year? Decision making is being taken out of the hands of CBs. And in a similar way manager's are being dictated to on what type of training they should implement and additionally, in Limerick's case at least, who should be on the panel. Yet only a few years ago players in Cork who went on to perform with great acclaim didn't realise they couldn't tackle and didn't realise this was an area they needed to address. Now that wasn't addressed because Donal OGrady came into the job with some revolutionary and scientific approach to training, 'new school' thinking you might say. But why didn't previous managers spot this? Obviously different managers see different things and managers see things differently to players. There was no rebellion when OGrady dealt with the tackling but there is contention at times when managers try to address problems they see which players don't. And it comes back to who is going to decide how things are done. If the players decide then there's no need for a manager and this 'old school' term gives credence to any claim they know best. Whether managers are of 'old school' or 'new school' it's only part of the requirements to be a manager. And when you take this further didn't Donal Og tell Gerald that he would make the decisions on how he would take his puck outs?
I know 'past' managers who would would readily admit they wouldn't now be up to what's required to manage a good club team now and in a sense I suppose that meets your definition of 'old school'. In 'their day' they would have been regarded as excellent managers and much sought after but because they've been away from the game they're not up to scratch. From my experience most managers who may be 'older' but who haven't been away from the game are well up to the mark on best training methods and the use of 'science' although I doubt two managers with the same knowledge would apply training methods in exactly the same way. The most successful team in my own club has had different managers over the last six years, all very knowledge and of the 'new school' but applied very different methods to training but all have had similar success. Of course there is always some criticism from players but different players have different criticisms of different managers. And if you or me were managing the team there would probably be different criticism again. And again we come back to who makes the decisions. But managers will be different and their applications will be different. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with highlighting 'those b**tards hate us'. However when it's a soundbite from a disgruntled player and portrayed as the be all and end all of match preparation then it does look like old school. But will there be a chance of someone in Kilkenny referring to Donal og's book prior to a match to get the blood up? I'd say every chance. Will that be old school? In soccer when Alex Ferguson split Beckhams eye was that old school? I would say it was but there's no regimental way of doing things.
We don't know McNamara's thinking and that of most managers because they don't run to the press. Players more frequently do. Is that because the GAA is developing and changing with the times. I don't know that much about McNamara but I doubt if, in spite of the questionable morning training, everything about his ability is the black and white picture painted of him. As for Justin, up until recently he was lauded as a coach and manager but now all that has changed because a group of players say so.
Players can't be objective in the appointment of a manager, the selection of a panel or the application of training. There has to be a structure which takes account of all needs for each of the above. Maybe I'm of the 'old school' but I still believe the CB appoint the manager and the manager picks the team and both stand or fall by their choices to those they're accountable to.
Quote
Is Brian Cody 'old school'?
I'm sure Brian has a number of weaknesses but he is smart enough to realize this a surround himself with people who can do certain things better than himself. Mickey Harte and Jack O'Connor likewise, and Liam Sheedy for that matter. This is the way to go, the likes of Justin and Mike Mac can't coach the modern player so if they want to be a manager they need to get people in to do the physical preparation and possibly other areas too.
Micko and Paidi spring to mind when you talk about "old school".
There are plenty of stories about Mick O'Dwyer taking charge of the training and some it certainly would appear to be "old school" and it doesn't seem to do his teams any harm ?
Paidi in Westmeath if you watched the Youtube video where in front of the whole panel, picked out one player for criticism cos he wasn't tough enough ( " you were f--ked over the sideline like a loaf of bread" I think were his words ) but again Westmeath seemed to respond positively to his promptings.
Or are these 2 boys the exception to the rule ?.
That's quite a mouthful dowling and I don't disagree with a lot of it but you suggested I simplified the issue in a previous post but you've done the same, why? Because we have to, of course there are multiple layers and 101 shades of grey in any dispute and even if we were directly involved we couldn't appreciate the varying opinions and motivations of everyone, so we have no chance of being able to do that when we are looking in from a distance.
QuoteFrom my experience most managers who may be 'older' but who haven't been away from the game are well up to the mark on best training methods and the use of 'science'
Let me assure you that they weren't up to the mark, I can say this because I'd doubt there are any coaches involved in the GAA who are at the very cutting edge of preparation. This is in part because we are amateur and therefore limited by time and money and in part because most don't have the expertise. You'll have to accept that as being true dowling because I know what I'm talking about in this regard.
QuoteI doubt two managers with the same knowledge would apply training methods in exactly the same way. The most successful team in my own club has had different managers over the last six years, all very knowledge and of the 'new school' but applied very different methods to training but all have had similar success.
Yes, different methods are to be expected, there isn't just one way to do it but there are a few things to consider here. One, proper training is about adhering to correct principles rather than doing certain drills in a certain order, so you and me could do different training programs but if we both know what we're doing then they should be based on similar principles. Second, the higher the level your coaching the more important it is that you're doing things right, at the lower levels it is easier to get results with less than optimal training. Finally, there are more factors involved in successful teams than physical preparation and again, the higher the level the more important it is to get these right. At club level you could be winning games because of what other teams aren't doing more than what you are doing, at IC level you have get everything as right as it can be because your competition are trying to do that.
QuoteOf course there is always some criticism from players but different players have different criticisms of different managers. And if you or me were managing the team there would probably be different criticism again.
Yep, definitely and I've experienced that myself, where some players don't buy into what I'm saying as much as I'd like but I also know I have weaknesses as a manager/coach and I try to improve on these areas each year. I look for feedback from players and encourage them to ask questions and raise issues with me if they have them and I try to take on board criticisms as opposed to dismissing them as simply the natterings of disgruntled players. I think you have to do this and I don't think players will follow you for too long if you don't, Justin and Mike Mac appear to have fell down in this regard.
QuoteAs for Justin, up until recently he was lauded as a coach and manager but now all that has changed because a group of players say so.
That isn't true, a lot of question were asked about Justin after his stint in Waterford and many in the county wanted him gone long before the 'player coup'. His tactical awareness and communication skills were top of the list of criticisms and apparently he hadn't spoken to some players (directly) in months.
QuotePlayers can't be objective in the appointment of a manager, the selection of a panel or the application of training. There has to be a structure which takes account of all needs for each of the above. Maybe I'm of the 'old school' but I still believe the CB appoint the manager and the manager picks the team and both stand or fall by their choices to those they're accountable to.
IMO, CB's should be appointing people who are knowledgeable in the area of team preparation to pick the manager, e.g. ex-managers, ex-players and probably, an older player or two from the current panel. It's adults were talking about here and I don't know of any player who would try and get in a weak character as manager who couldn't do the job because he thought that would ensure his own position on the team, every player I know, would simply want the man best able to help them succeed. And every manager managing a team must remember that his players are volunteering there time so he must prepare them properly and show them a good degree of respect, I'm not sure Justin or Mike have done this.
An IC manager shouldn't be doing any coaching of the team in my opinion. He should be a facilliatator a la Declan Kidney. Thats the problem here in my view. Both Justin and Mike Mac want to coach as well. Isn't enough time to do both in my opinion while tending to all the other needs.
Harte and Cody tend to watch training. They bring in coaches to do the other things.
Its a big job and it needs specialists in all areas.
Pat Flanagan and Sugrue train Kerry- JOC watches
Martin Fogarty trains kilkenny and cody watches
Same for Harte I'd say.
I know Daly does some of the coaching for Dublin but not alot. But thats a different case- our lads would need his input because we are trying to break through the concrete ceiling of hurling which ain't easy.
I think the Seamus Hickey defection will put Justin's position untenable more than any other player.
Now that the GPA have gained formal recognition, can we expect Dessie and co. to be at the next CB meeting in Limerick and Clare to help resolve the problems that exist in these 2 counties ?
Hopefully they'll be on 2 different dates - it's a fair auld run to these 2 places. A lot of diesel needed. ;)
Zulu I'm not trying to oversimplify anything here.
If there was a list of the top 100 managers in the country I doubt there would be much of a gap in knowledge of training requirements, best training practices and training results. Let's not forget a manager is only as good as his players but what puts one manager above another is as much down to personality, how one can get more from his players than another, and tactical knowhow. Let's not get hooked up on the science.
You refer to some wanting Justin out before he went. I recall ones in Tyrone calling for the removal of Mickey Harte before they went on to win the all-Ireland. Waterford eventually got to the final but were thrashed under a different manager but playing a team in more or less the same fashion as Justin. Is Davy a better manager because he got to the final or is Justin better because he never got such a thrashing? A bit of discontent from certain quarters in a panel can seal a manager's fate as quickly as a poor run of results. Throwing out the soundbites about hatred between counties fails to paint a whole picture. Managers use that type of motivation all the time. It's not an old school thing. Everyone might not respond positively to it but that doesn't mean it's lost on all.
But at the end of the day it still comes down to what roles people have. We all give CBs criticism but as I rule I would be inclined to believe that CBs do consult with 'knowledgeable' people when deciding upon a manager. In the same way they would look for expert advice on their finances. But even if we went your way to an 'appointments committee' that would still be the players calling the shots, they're the ones making the issues and any changes are in effect at their behest.
So who appointed Cody, Harte or Jack OConnor? The question of how to appoint a manager only seems to arise when there's an unsuccessful team with an element of discontented players. Who appointed the Clare under 21 manager? Any credit there to the CB?
Quote from: dowling on November 22, 2009, 03:07:30 AM
Zulu I'm not trying to oversimplify anything here.
If there was a list of the top 100 managers in the country I doubt there would be much of a gap in knowledge of training requirements, best training practices and training results. Let's not forget a manager is only as good as his players but what puts one manager above another is as much down to personality, how one can get more from his players than another, and tactical knowhow. Let's not get hooked up on the science.
You refer to some wanting Justin out before he went. I recall ones in Tyrone calling for the removal of Mickey Harte before they went on to win the all-Ireland. Waterford eventually got to the final but were thrashed under a different manager but playing a team in more or less the same fashion as Justin. Is Davy a better manager because he got to the final or is Justin better because he never got such a thrashing? A bit of discontent from certain quarters in a panel can seal a manager's fate as quickly as a poor run of results. Throwing out the soundbites about hatred between counties fails to paint a whole picture. Managers use that type of motivation all the time. It's not an old school thing. Everyone might not respond positively to it but that doesn't mean it's lost on all.
But at the end of the day it still comes down to what roles people have. We all give CBs criticism but as I rule I would be inclined to believe that CBs do consult with 'knowledgeable' people when deciding upon a manager. In the same way they would look for expert advice on their finances. But even if we went your way to an 'appointments committee' that would still be the players calling the shots, they're the ones making the issues and any changes are in effect at their behest.
So who appointed Cody, Harte or Jack OConnor? The question of how to appoint a manager only seems to arise when there's an unsuccessful team with an element of discontented players. Who appointed the Clare under 21 manager? Any credit there to the CB?
Players?
Are you implying there were players discontented in Waterford and none in Tyrone Duffleking?
Yip
So what's the Waterford background then and who were the disgruntled players and why were they?
By the way duffle let your mouth do the talking and give your arse a rest for a while if you're going to answer. Your insults only reflect on yourself.
was that a genuine question or were you just paving the way for more personal abuse?
Are you seriously telling me you're not aware of player unrest in the last year of justin McCarthy's management in Waterford?
If you cant come up with an answer just say so.
you're making a spectacle of yourself with this.
The players removed McCarthy. You really don't know that?
If you want to try and pick an argument you can win with me, this is not it.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 24, 2009, 10:59:28 AM
you're making a spectacle of yourself with this.
Don't you worry yourself about that?
The players removed McCarthy. You really don't know that?
So what's the background, who and why?
If you want to try and pick an argument you can win with me, this is not it.
I can't even get an argument with you because you don't seem to know a lot other than "the players removed McCarthy".
Of course i do. everyone does.
This like saying "how do you know Mick McCarhty and Roy Keane didn't get on?"
Totalyl brain dead.
Is there a particular number of references you want?
QuoteLast night in Waterford Justin McCarthy resigned from his post as the county team's hurling manager. In a statement he said
"Today I informed the chairman of Waterford County Board that I intend to step down as manager of the Waterford Senior hurling team.
I made the decision as I feel I no longer have the full support of all the players on the team.
I regret that my decision to step down has come in the middle of the championship season, however I feel it is the best course of action for everybody involved"
It had become apparent in the wake of the defeat to Clare that some of the players were unhappy with McCarthy. There were rumours that Eoin Kelly was dropped off the panel for disciplinary reasons and much was made of Dan Shanahan storming off the field and refusing to shake Justin's hand when substituted. Apparently the players held a private meeting among themselves earlier in the week and so Justin resigned when he realised the game was up.
It's tough on McCarthy given how much he's done for Waterford, he took them to Munster titles and to the brink of All-Ireland glory. It wasn't his fault the schedule conspired against them last year or the players choked when so near the finishing line or there's not a decent goalkeeper to be found in the county. You could say that McCarthy has been there so long that his message and methods aren't working anymore but the manager is always the easy scapegoat after failures and in this case it looks more like players getting too big for their boots.
The effort (or lack of it) from some of them in the game against Clare was a disgrace, Shanahan was so anonymous during the game he could have been taken off long before half time. Conceding 2-26 was pretty shocking for the backs too even without Ken McGrath and Eoin Murphy.
Anyway now they have to find a new man to lead them through the qualifiers. They have an easy start to those with a likely game against Antrim and with the usual initial surge from having a new man in charge they might fly on a bit further but it's very hard to see them making the all ireland breakthrough this year now. Haven't heard any rumours yet as to who might take over, realistically they need a big name and a strong character although they'll probably settle on some easy choice guy from within the county.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 24, 2009, 01:58:53 PM
Is there a particular number of references you want?
QuoteLast night in Waterford Justin McCarthy resigned from his post as the county team's hurling manager. In a statement he said
"Today I informed the chairman of Waterford County Board that I intend to step down as manager of the Waterford Senior hurling team.
I made the decision as I feel I no longer have the full support of all the players on the team.
I regret that my decision to step down has come in the middle of the championship season, however I feel it is the best course of action for everybody involved"
It had become apparent in the wake of the defeat to Clare that some of the players were unhappy with McCarthy. There were rumours that Eoin Kelly was dropped off the panel for disciplinary reasons and much was made of Dan Shanahan storming off the field and refusing to shake Justin's hand when substituted. Apparently the players held a private meeting among themselves earlier in the week and so Justin resigned when he realised the game was up.
It's tough on McCarthy given how much he's done for Waterford, he took them to Munster titles and to the brink of All-Ireland glory. It wasn't his fault the schedule conspired against them last year or the players choked when so near the finishing line or there's not a decent goalkeeper to be found in the county. You could say that McCarthy has been there so long that his message and methods aren't working anymore but the manager is always the easy scapegoat after failures and in this case it looks more like players getting too big for their boots.
The effort (or lack of it) from some of them in the game against Clare was a disgrace, Shanahan was so anonymous during the game he could have been taken off long before half time. Conceding 2-26 was pretty shocking for the backs too even without Ken McGrath and Eoin Murphy.
Anyway now they have to find a new man to lead them through the qualifiers. They have an easy start to those with a likely game against Antrim and with the usual initial surge from having a new man in charge they might fly on a bit further but it's very hard to see them making the all ireland breakthrough this year now. Haven't heard any rumours yet as to who might take over, realistically they need a big name and a strong character although they'll probably settle on some easy choice guy from within the county.
That's all the substance you can produce? That's it? All that time and one cut and paste about rumours and big Dan. No insider information? Didn't really think you knew what you were talking about. Did I not tell ya to give your arse a rest.
I never bothered. why would i?
You claimed there were no disgrntled players. i just showed you there were - in 5 seconds - what exactly do you need?
Why would i post up "insider information"? What's that got to do with your (admittedly inane) question?
On refelection, why would i have to have insider info to know there was player unrest?
Did you change the question in your own mind?
let me recap what you asked...
QuoteAre you implying there were players discontented in Waterford
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 24, 2009, 04:35:03 PM
I never bothered. why would i?
You claimed there were no disgrntled players. i just showed you there were - in 5 seconds - what exactly do you need?
Why would i post up "insider information"? What's that got to do with your (admittedly inane) question?
Where did I claim that?
You see duffle you just jumped in and took a point I was making out of context in an attempt to be a smart arse.
The crisis that has engulfed Limerick inter-county hurling shows no sign of abating with the news that goalkeeper Brian Murray is the latest player to quit the senior panel.
The catalyst for this latest demonstration of player-power seems to have been manager Justin McCarthy's decision to overhaul his squad.
Niall Moran, Stephen Lucey, Donie Ryan, Andrew O'Shaughnessy and Mark Foley were all dropped from the panel for the 2010 season and a number of their former team-mates have withdrawn their services in an apparent act of solidarity.
James Ryan, Damien Reale, Seamus Hickey, Brian Geary and Wayne McNamara are just some of the county stars that have ended their involvement in the panel.
McCarthy, who has already received the dreaded vote of confidence from the county board, is eager to keep all channels of communication open with the disenchanted players and has indicated that his door is always open to them.
Limerick PRO Helen Cross told the Irish Examiner: 'Justin has said he is available to talk to any player who wishes to meet him.
'But I understand that they have declined his offer. The PRO insisted that McCarthy and his management team retain the full backing of the county board.
'At a meeting of the County Management Committee in the Gaelic Grounds on Wednesday night (October 18) it was decided unanimously to support Justin McCarthy and his management team for 2010.
'The meeting ran from 7.30pm to 11.30pm - they went through everything and just felt that they needed to support Justin McCarthy as manager.
'It's a pity that things like this have to happen, but hopefully it will be resolved, because these situations can take a while to recover.'
I have to say this is all becoming more and more very Cork like. Players are refusing to meet and talk and players have decided who is good enough to be on the panel.
You would have to wonder if these players are taking advice from any quarter.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if McNamara and Justin stood firm - although McNamara seems less likely - if we have more player press conferences.
Maybe a way to solve all these managerial issues would be for the CB to say to a team dissatisfied with a manager to go and pick their own.
And see what happens.
Quote from: dowling on November 24, 2009, 09:28:27 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 24, 2009, 04:35:03 PM
I never bothered. why would i?
You claimed there were no disgrntled players. i just showed you there were - in 5 seconds - what exactly do you need?
Why would i post up "insider information"? What's that got to do with your (admittedly inane) question?
Where did I claim that?
You see duffle you just jumped in and took a point I was making out of context in an attempt to be a smart arse.
Below is your exact question.
Quote from: dowling on November 23, 2009, 02:07:37 AM
Are you implying there were players discontented in Waterford and none in Tyrone Duffleking?
I answered Yes.
I cannot see any need for elaboration or background. It was a simple, direct question that got a simple direct answer.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 25, 2009, 10:27:26 AM
Quote from: dowling on November 24, 2009, 09:28:27 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 24, 2009, 04:35:03 PM
I never bothered. why would i?
You claimed there were no disgrntled players. i just showed you there were - in 5 seconds - what exactly do you need?
Why would i post up "insider information"? What's that got to do with your (admittedly inane) question?
Where did I claim that?
You see duffle you just jumped in and took a point I was making out of context in an attempt to be a smart arse.
Below is your exact question.
Quote from: dowling on November 23, 2009, 02:07:37 AM
Are you implying there were players discontented in Waterford and none in Tyrone Duffleking?
I answered Yes.
I cannot see any need for elaboration or background. It was a simple, direct question that got a simple direct answer.
Or maybe you can't come up with anything further than Dan's discontent and a rumour. You would hardly think that was what caused Justin to resign.
Anyway what about Stephen ONeill? Why was he not playing all year? A bit closer to home for ya.
I never mentioned dan shanahan. Again, you never asked for background until you were floundering and running out of argument.
I know all about stephen o'neill, thanks.
I'm finished with this purile nonsense.
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 26, 2009, 09:54:15 AM
I never mentioned dan shanahan. Again, you never asked for background until you were floundering and running out of argument.
I know all about stephen o'neill, thanks.
I'm finished with this purile nonsense.
Good, but don't be so hard on yourself. Just because you've been posting purile nonsense and are a chancer doesn't necessarily make you a bad person.
Dowling do you know why Stephen O'Neill wasn't playing all year 2008? Please share. If he was that disgruntled he'd hardly have come back.
What is wrong with some people? There's me having an exchange of views on Limerick hurling, and without any aggro between posters, and then get dragged into a petty exchange because someone cant read my posts properly, takes points out of context and insults me on another thread. If you want a petty exchange about Stephen ONeill try someone else or pm duffle with what you know.
Or better still if you want to debate the Limerick situation feel free to contribute.
I'm not that computer savvy so I wouldn't be able to do it myself , someone done it for G mc during the Cork strike . Is there any chance someone here who is computer savvy would set up one of those online petitions in support of Justin Mc Carthy ?I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like to get a little message of support to him . I think it's a good idea anyway . Thanks .
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on November 27, 2009, 03:25:58 PM
I'm not that computer savvy so I wouldn't be able to do it myself , someone done it for G mc during the Cork strike . Is there any chance someone here who is computer savvy would set up one of those online petitions in support of Justin Mc Carthy ?I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like to get a little message of support to him . I think it's a good idea anyway . Thanks .
It was ten days ago when I made that post above .
Not one individual had the good manners to merely even acknowledge the post one way or another .
My sincere thanks to all the honorable hurling folk on here .
Watch the flood of posts now reeling for a fight .
Maybe noone else thought it was a good idea?
Certainly i didn't think it was worth commenting on...
Sounds familiar ????????
The Limerick hurling crisis is set to rumble on after it was agreed at Thursday night's County Board meeting in Ballyagran to hold another meeting of club delegates of the players affected on 12 December.
Manager Justin McCarthy has come under attack for his controversial axing of 12 players from last season's panel, and with nine more players withdrawing their services, McCarthy will have a hugely weakened panel with which to work from if the current impasse is not resolved.
While obviously unhappy with the handling of the omissions, the players have also declared their lack of support for the methods and style of McCarthy and his management team, citing a lack of intensity at training sessions.
However, according to a report in today's Irish Examiner, McCarthy and his selectors defended their approach, insisting: 'There was never a training session that was haphazard, or lackadaisical. Everyone was totally committed - there was no night when we didn't have a good session.'
Selector Brian Ryan recalled a weekend away in Killarney ahead of the All-Ireland semi-final where every player was asked if they had any problems.
He revealed: 'The last question every one of them was asked was - did he have any issues he wanted to bring up? Of the 29 players, only two said yes, and those were to do with travelling to Dublin on the night before the game against Tipperary. It was staggering then, months later, to hear they had all these problems.'
A detailed questions and answers session posed many questions of McCarthy and his team, before the Adare delegate proposed a motion of no confidence in the management team.
However, it was agreed that the club delegates of the players affected would reconvene on 12 December in Claughaun clubhouse to discuss the matter further, meaning there is no end in sight for this saga.
In my experience Limerick hurling supporters have awful delusions about themselves.
They are still going on about things like Ciaran Carey's point in 1996, even though a world of hurling has been played since.
Justin can drop and pick who he wants. the hurlers aren't there!
Quote from: Premier Emperor on December 05, 2009, 11:48:16 PM
In my experience Limerick hurling supporters have awful delusions about themselves.
They are still going on about things like Ciaran Carey's point in 1996, even though a world of hurling has been played since.
Justin can drop and pick who he wants. the hurlers aren't there!
Have you been reading my letters ? ;)
So many similarities to the Cork dispute seem to be coming into play. How long will it be before someone says Justin didn't know what club he played for? Anyone any thoughts on gpa involvement here?
Quote from: dowling on December 06, 2009, 11:55:38 PM
So many similarities to the Cork dispute seem to be coming into play. How long will it be before someone says Justin didn't know what club he played for? Anyone any thoughts on gpa involvement here?
:D
Well with this formal recognition surely the gpa would be trying to help resolve this impasse by telling the players to catch themselves on or alternatively telling them to hold firm and put out some stories about inadequate training. Like the Cork players did.
Justin needs to exit here. In my view both sides at fault but justin isn't blameless either on this one.
Match report from today's Examiner. Next up Limerick face UCC in Kilmallock this Sunday with the winners to face UL/LIT.
Limerick 0-18 Wexford 0-18
By Fintan O'Toole
Monday, January 18, 2010
OFF the field, the raging inferno that is the Limerick hurling crisis burns on, yet between the white lines Justin McCarthy is attempting to plough on with the preparation work for the 2010 season.
Saturday afternoon in Mallow was the first port of call with Wexford providing the opposition in the low-key setting of a challenge match.
McCarthy's decision to wield the axe to his panel last October and the subsequent deluge of withdrawals have decimated Limerick's squad and only two of last year's championship panel, Brian O'Sullivan and Paudie McNamara, started this match.
Thus McCarthy had assembled a team dominated by novices and he'll have been heartened by their battling qualities to grind out a draw in the finish as they pegged back Wexford with two late points to force a draw.
But the result came with a couple of caveats. Technically Wexford should have won with Stephen Banville having a perfectly good point waved wide by the umpires and Colm Bonnar was in an experimental mood. Only three of Saturday's Wexford side started when the counties met in the All-Ireland qualifiers last June, with established players Diarmuid Lyng and Keith Rossiter sprung from the bench during the second-half.
"I'm pleased we got a game there today and all the lads got a run-out," said McCarthy. "I was delighted with the support we got as well and the effort in particular. It was typical Limerick hurling today, which was very important, and they gave their all, they were together today for the first time. I was very pleased with the spirit shown to come back, it was very good."
Bonnar regarded the game as a useful workout, regardless of his opponent's travails over the winter.
"It was a good match for us. We're very much experimenting with a trial panel, so we're delighted to have got a game and started off."
Limerick's defence was largely solid with full-back Des Kenny and Kieran O'Rourke both impressing. Half-back Lorcan O'Dwyer, who operated last year on Mickey Ned O'Sullivan's county football panel, turned in a fine hour while wing-forward Cathal Mullane hit three lovely points. The star turn was wing-forward Tommy O'Brien, who showed a innate ability to notch points from play and frees.
O'Brien was one of six Limerick players to see action who featured for the county U21's last summer, with Nicky Quaid, son of former goalkeeping great Tommy, at midfield.
Adare goalkeeper Timmy Houlihan did not line out nor did former Kerry netminder Tadhg Flynn, while South Liberties involvement in Sunday's All-Ireland IHC semi-final robbed Limerick of other personnel options.
McCarthy's squad is predominantly a youthful one and he seemed encouraged by their spirit and feistiness.
But he'll be aware that the standards will be raised considerably in the weeks ahead.
Scorers for Limerick: Thomas O'Brien (0-7, 0-4f), Paudie McNamara (0-2f), C Mullane 0-3 each, B O'Sullivan, R McKeogh, C Allis, S O'Donnell, P Harty 0-1 each.
Scorers for Wexford: J Berry 0-8 (0-6f), D Lyng 0-3 (0-1 '65), D Nolan, J Gahan 0-2 each, T Mahon, H Kehoe, M Connors 0-1 each.
LIMERICK: B Hennessy (Kilmallock). D Lynch (Na Piarsaigh), D Kenny (Ballybrown), K O'Rourke (Bruree). A Brennan (Caherline), Paul McNamara (Na Piarsaigh), L O'Dwyer (Pallasgreen). D Moore (Monagea), N Quaid (Effin). Tommy O'Brien (Patrickswell), B O'Sullivan (Kilmallock), C Mullane (Kileedy). A O'Connell (Adare), Paudie McNamara (Murroe-Boher), R McKeogh (Kildimo).
Subs: C Allis (Croom) for O'Connell (half-time), D Madden (Bruff) for Moore (45), Tommy O'Brien (Bruree) for O'Sullivan (45), S O'Donnell (Kilmallock) for Quaid (55), P Harty (Patrickswell) for Paudie McNamara (57), B Quinn (Ballybrown) for Paul McNamara (60).
WEXFORD: M Fanning. D Kehoe, P Roche, E Doyle. B Hobbs, G Jacob, L Pender. T Mahon (0-1), W Doran. D Nolan (0-2), M O'Regan, H Kehoe (0-1). T Barron, S Banville, J Berry (0-8, 0-6f).
Subs: D Lyng (0-3, 0-1 '65) for H Kehoe, M Connors (0-1) for Barron, J Gahan (0-2) for Mahon (all half-time), K Rossiter for Roche, J Kehoe for O'Regan (both 51), Mahon for Banville (55).
Referee: John Sexton (Limerick).
Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/sport/gaa/hurling/mccarthy-praises-new-look-panel-109950.html#ixzz0cx8hSg89
Limerick hurlers let rip
By Diarmuid O'Flynn
Tuesday, January 19, 2010
THE Limerick hurling crisis took a sharp twist last night when the 24 disaffected players issued a hard-hitting statement, attacking both Justin McCarthy, their former manager, and their own county board.
The trouble began last October, when manager McCarthy cut 12 players from the panel, several of those among the most high-profile and best-performing members of the 2009 league and championship team, most notably defender Stephen Lucey and forward Niall Moran, along with recent All-Star Andrew O'Shaughnessy, dual star Mark O'Riordan, and ever-present stalwarts Mike O'Brien and Donie Ryan.
Team captain and All-Star nominee Mark Foley was also omitted, but he at least got the courtesy of a phone call informing him of that decision – all the others learned of their fate through the media, which led to a spate of withdrawals by a host of other top names, former captain Damien Reale the first to go. Damien was later joined by such influential stars as Brian Geary, Seamus Hickey, Donal O'Grady, James O'Brien, Gavin O'Mahony and goalkeeper Brian Murray, which left McCarthy with only six of last year's panel.
At the time of the first cut, Justin did a major interview with a local reporter in which he suggested that indiscipline was a major problem within the panel: "There will always be people who will put you on the wrong track, always guys that will try and break the system and try things on," he stated. "We weren't fooled by people who may have stepped out of line in the past year. It didn't have a huge effect but going forward I will not tolerate that – we have to have a better code of discipline, players have to be honest to themselves, their fellow players and the management..."
Since then, Justin has further suggested that the players were actually plotting against him even before the season ended, that they are now refusing to take phone calls from the management. with this statement, the players have firmly rebutted all those accusations, and made a few of their own, not least against their own county board.
The players statement reads:
We strongly believe that it is in the best interests of Limerick GAA to address an orchestrated series of allegations made by Justin McCarthy and several other prominent figures in the ongoing dispute regarding the 2010 Limerick Senior Hurling panel.
Up to this juncture, we have maintained a dignified silence on this recent controversy. We felt that the procedures relating to the appointment and subsequent vote of confidence in Justin McCarthy must be respected. In this instance, the majority of club delegates supported the motion of "confidence" in the current management set up for the forthcoming season.
We have avoided the need to convene and make a "group statement" up to now as we did not want to compromise in any way the best interests of Limerick hurling and each individual concerned. At this point however, we feel that the public are entitled to get clarity on a number of issues.
The points raised are as a result of the first and only meeting between players who withdrew from the 2010 panel, the majority of players who were dropped from the panel, and the retired players.
1. Origins of this situation
We feel that Justin McCarthy and his selectors are perfectly entitled to select the 30 or so players they chose for the 2010 Limerick Senior hurling panel, and are perfectly entitled to omit any players as they see fit, as is there prerogative. However, the inference that Mr McCarthy made on a newspaper interview on 30th October, 2009 that a number of players were dropped due to a lack of discipline and commitment sparked an extremely negative response from the majority of the 2009 panel. At no time over the course of approximately 100 training sessions or gatherings did Mr McCarthy make any reference to a "lack of discipline or commitment". Indeed on several occasions, he made the point that this Limerick team was the "most committed he'd ever worked with and were a pleasure to train". As a result of his failure to clarify instances where discipline was breached or a lack of commitment was evident, each player made a voluntary decision regarding their availability for the 2010 panel under the current management.
2. Players refused to meet management
The 2009 panel have met the County Board on three occasions in a bid to resolve this matter.
On the first occasion, at a meeting in the South Court Hotel in mid November 2009, players' representatives were asked to consider meeting the 2010 management with a view to discussing the main issues and concerns of panel members. While they were receptive to arranging a meeting, the players felt that it would achieve little, in keeping with previous meetings held with management throughout the year. The County Board officials were of a similar opinion, but offered to relay the main points of the meeting to management. The players' representatives subsequently received no feedback from the County Board and the matter was let lie.
It was only when there were player withdrawals did the management seek a meeting with the players who withdrew from the panel.
At this point most players were after exploring every avenue available to them in an effort to resolve the issues, and felt a meeting at this stage would be futile.
3. A small group of players are behind this
This is the most damning of all accusations made. A misconception originating from both the County Board and the senior hurling management has gathered momentum that a small number of players are orchestrating an attempt to remove the current Limerick Senior Hurling management and influence the decisions of younger panel members in particular. It is important to stress that at no point was any individual player unduly influenced or forced into making a decision by any other player regarding his future involvement with the 2010 Limerick hurling squad. This decision is, and has been at all times, left up the individual as no player should stand in the way of the career of another player. We would urge the individuals responsible for these false claims to produce factual evidence substantiating same. Otherwise, they should refrain from spreading malicious lies.
One local journalist felt the need to personalise this in what can only be described as a vicious attack on the good name and integrity of a highly respected member of the 2009 hurling panel. This reporter, who does not have the courage of his conviction to name the individual player concerned, would be well advised to reflect on his contribution to Limerick GAA, either in a playing or administrative capacity, before passing judgment on the player concerned.
It must be stressed that players have no problem accepting criticism for on field performances, but it must be stressed that personal or professional criticism of players in the media has no place in the GAA.
4. Communication was not an issue
Justin McCarthy remarked that "It's not about communication. I think that was a good excuse, initially, but I think as far back as last August some of the players were trying to get rid of us, and didn't want us on board, because they had their own agenda, really and truly."
His failure, even still, to extend common courtesy to the dropped players by informing them (either by phone or letter) that they would not be required for the forthcoming season was only one of a series of communication failures on his part over the course of the year.
Players and management were at odds at many points throughout the year. This came to a head before the Qualifier game against Wexford in July of this year when players took the unprecedented step of organising our own game plan in the absence of any acceptance from management that our performances to that point were sub standard.
His further assertion that "players were trying to get rid of us" is without any basis. Our County Board will accept that procedures are in place that all senior inter county panels should have players representatives in place to discuss the issues pertaining to panel members. If players' attempts to discuss issues with management amounts to having "their own agenda", then this procedure has failed.
5. County Board Mis-management
This situation has been poorly handled by the County Board on a number of fronts:
• At several points over the course of the 2009 season, they were made aware by players that preparations were not up to the required standards and that team morale was quite poor. They did not feel the need to discuss this at the delegates meeting immediately after the All Ireland semi final defeat to Tipperary, preferring to make reference to Justin McCarthy's continuation of his two year tenure as Limerick senior hurling manager.
THESE concerns were never relayed to club delegates who were entitled to be made aware of this in the best interests of Limerick GAA. Also, we feel the county board should have insisted that either players representatives be asked to attend the Ballyagran meeting, or else all club delegates (not just those of the players) attend the subsequent meeting in Claughaun, in the interests of fairness and impartiality.
There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that many junior and intermediate clubs had been actively canvassed by members of the management and the county board to vote in favour of Justin McCarthy's retention as Limerick senior hurling manager for 2010. In many cases, false information and rumours were initiated to reflect poorly on certain members of the 2009 panel, and thereby influence the vote.
• One officer made reference in a meeting with players and their delegates that players were responsible for the departure of the last six managers. He, and other county board officers, should maturely recollect this is certainly not the case and should consider the county board's part in the repeated turnover of managers in Limerick.
Another delegate made reference to "Player Power" being at the core of the current impasse. We strongly refute this claim and wish to state that we respect the decision of the delegates and have no desire to become involved in GAA boardroom politics.
There are huge sacrifices and commitments involved in modern day inter-county hurling, and the players have made an individual decision to make themselves unavailable for 2010 because we feel there is no chance of improvement or success under the present management.
6. Management's role in influencing players decisions
"We've tried to discuss things with them, and they won't answer our calls, or come face to face and discuss anything." Justin McCarthy, RTÉ Radio January 13, 2010.
Many players received intimidating phone calls from members of the management and backroom staff putting them under pressure to join the 2010 Limerick Senior Hurling panel. Meetings took place with individual players in a bid to resolve this matter. We appreciate the efforts made by John Tuohy to discuss the situation in an open-minded manner.
We would like to publicly acknowledge the massive public support we have received to date from Limerick Gaels, both near and far. It is unfortunate that events have come to this but the genuine Limerick GAA supporter deserves to be made aware of the full facts surrounding this controversy.
We have full respect for the manner in which the GAA conducts its business. We are acutely aware of the huge honour associated with representing our county and to that end, we have always endeavoured to prepare as diligently as possible, even if results have not always reflected this.
We wish the 2010 panel all the best in their preparation for the forthcoming season and hope that no stone is left unturned to ensure that Limerick are successful. However, we reiterate that we will not play any active part in the 2010 Limerick senior hurling panel while the present management is in place. Is Sinne le meas,
David Bulfin, Tom Condon, Damien Cosgrave, Eoin Foley, Mark Foley, Brian Geary, Seamus Hickey, Stephen Lucey, Wayne McNamara, Denis Moloney, Niall Moran, Ollie Moran, Brian Murray, James O'Brien, Mike O'Brien, Donal O Grady, Gavin O Mahoney, Mark O'Riordan, Andrew O'Shaughnessy, Damien Reale, Donie Ryan, James Ryan, Donncha Sheehan, Stephen Walsh.
I don't think there's any reason to be surprised at this development. I would guess this was always going to come and has probably more to do with Limerick's first game without these players than McCarthy's interview. That's not to say some individuals weren't miffed by his comments.
But this dispute is now quite definitely going onto the same ground as the Cork one and I would be very surprised if the Limerick players weren't being advised by someone from Cork and the GPA. Even the tone and content of this statement mirrors utterences of the Cork strikers. The only thing missing is a shadowy figure in the background who's really responsible for all this. Like Frank Murphy perhaps?
They are upping the ante now! This will only end in tears all round and Limerick will still be as far away as ever from an All Ireland.
These lads are living in la la land if they think they'l glean any sympathy from Limerick geals for that press release . It's all very sad really , a few of those lads were fine hurlers . I hope that they come to their senses sooner rather than later .
A right of reply to the constant barrage of innuendo and accusations in the press.
Very measured and thorough too
So much for the softly softly approach. Although to be fair I don't think they are asking for anything and seem to have accepted the fact that they are off the panel of their own volition.
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite. You pick and choose the facts you want then and in this case as well. You fail to see the similiarities because you don't want to, you were all about morals, and the GAA..etc when it was about Cork, but when it's to do with a different county, well, then it's a different story all together. It's not poor old Justin is it. It's both sides fault, which is rational and level head..etc. But it's bullshit if you go by what you based your opinions on in what happened in Cork. But hey, apparently there aren't any similarities at all. ::) ::)
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite. You pick and choose the facts you want then and in this case as well. You fail to see the similiarities because you don't want to, you were all about morals, and the GAA..etc when it was about Cork, but when it's to do with a different county, well, then it's a different story all together. It's not poor old Justin is it. It's both sides fault, which is rational and level head..etc. But it's bullshit if you go by what you based your opinions on in what happened in Cork. But hey, apparently there aren't any similarities at all. ::) ::)
The fact are Reillers:
- The cork hurlers formed a renegade panel to train outsides the remit of the GAA.
- They had a press conference to announce they were withdrawing their services.
-They never at any stage recognised the right of the manager to pick his own squad even if they weren't on it
-Gerald didn't discard any of the senior players. they discarded themselves.
Those are the facts Reillers and they are undisputed. I can't see the similarities./ The fact that you're not bright enough to see the difference isn't my fault. Justin has picked his squad and he's running with that. He's discarded 12 senior players as his is right as manager.
He won't open up the Irish Independent and see a renegade Limerick panel training on their own.
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite.
The first 'accusations' from anyone was the orchestrated leak by the Strikers to Kieran Shannon (Everyones favourite GPA-loving Journo) on the October Bank holiday in 2008 - it was an in depth piece which contained numerous personalised attacks on Gerald McCarthys character & coaching abilities.
I've no desire to get into the issue again (mainly because we were right then) but thats fact.
If you disagree with this matter of record, please produce a quote from McCarthy before the October Bank holiday 2008 - otherwise give over about your bunch of ignorant militants.
Quote from: heffo on January 19, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite.
The first 'accusations' from anyone was the orchestrated leak by the Strikers to Kieran Shannon (Everyones favourite GPA-loving Journo) on the October Bank holiday in 2008 - it was an in depth piece which contained numerous personalised attacks on Gerald McCarthys character & coaching abilities.
I've no desire to get into the issue again (mainly because we were right then) but thats fact.
If you disagree with this matter of record, please produce a quote from McCarthy before the October Bank holiday 2008 - otherwise give over about your bunch of ignorant militants.
Leaked being the word, Gerald reacted with a snowball of statement after statement. With accusations after acusations, and eventually called the meeting where the press were aloud in. Then the tied changed. But Gerald was in the media whining and whining every minute of the day. The players didn't make near as many statements to the press despite them getting completley slated. But hey..not like that matters. They're just all "ignorant militants" good to know what you think of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy.etc. Good to know you've no respect for players like them.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite. You pick and choose the facts you want then and in this case as well. You fail to see the similiarities because you don't want to, you were all about morals, and the GAA..etc when it was about Cork, but when it's to do with a different county, well, then it's a different story all together. It's not poor old Justin is it. It's both sides fault, which is rational and level head..etc. But it's bullshit if you go by what you based your opinions on in what happened in Cork. But hey, apparently there aren't any similarities at all. ::) ::)
The fact are Reillers:
- The cork hurlers formed a renegade panel to train outsides the remit of the GAA.
- They had a press conference to announce they were withdrawing their services.
-They never at any stage recognised the right of the manager to pick his own squad even if they weren't on it
-Gerald didn't discard any of the senior players. they discarded themselves.
Those are the facts Reillers and they are undisputed. I can't see the similarities./ The fact that you're not bright enough to see the difference isn't my fault. Justin has picked his squad and he's running with that. He's discarded 12 senior players as his is right as manager.
He won't open up the Irish Independent and see a renegade Limerick panel training on their own.
The Cork panel trained..something wrong with that? I'm sure the lads off the Limerick panel are doing the same, training away. And that's something you never really had any issue with at the time.
When press confrence are you on about the one they did before the tied changed?? I don't remember another one. And if they had a press conference at the start, which correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think they had, that wasn't an issue with you either, you didn't make it one. (Too busy bashing Donal Og and the GPA.)
The third issue, since when did he need their permission??
Gerald provoked his players, just like Justin has apparently done the same according to them, not in the same way but it happened.
Justin dropped a few from the pannel, they all then (well most anyway) said they were walking away and would not play under Justin again.
I can see the difference clearly, I just think it's hillarious that you wont admit to the simmilarities, or is it because you're just not "bright" enough??
But like I said, these issues you've raised here are not the ones that you had problems with in the topic, not that I remember and you repeated yourself a lot so..
You were all about the morale standings and about the GAA and what they're doing to it by refusing to play. You were so so passionate, but it was never really about the Cork players you said, just about what they are doing. Limerick are doing something similiar, yes there are differences, but the issues you had with their actions are the same you should have here with the Limerick players actions.
If your motivation was not how much you hated them, but hated what they were doing, like you said then you should have the same feelings here but you don't, and I don't see the same outrage either. But that's not surprising.
Indiana I wouldn't have been too far apart from you on the Cork dispute but I have to say I think you're reading this this one wrongly and missing potential consequences.
They're not training on their own - were the Cork strikers ever really doing any serious training on their own or was all the talk a PR exercise - but they have now said, "...we will not play any active part in the 2010 Limerick senior hurling panel while the present management is in place." Seems that what the Cork strikers started off saying and the Limerick boys haven't given up on playing. Strange?
Coming up with their own gameplan? Donal óg and his puck outs. Similar?
'We could have said something but didn't.' Even though they said they hadn't said anything. Contradiction?
"...lack of discipline or commitment". Who determines that?
"As a result of his failure to clarify instances where discipline was breached or a lack of commitment was evident, each player made a voluntary decision regarding their availability for the 2010 panel under the current management."
So this was an issue before Justin's interview.
"...players' representatives were asked to consider meeting the 2010 management with a view to discussing the main issues and concerns of panel members. While they were receptive to arranging a meeting, the players felt that it would achieve little,...". Now tell me that's not 'Cork-like'.
"His further assertion that "players were trying to get rid of us" is without any basis."
No need to contact the county board then. Right?
"This situation has been poorly handled by the County Board on a number of fronts:
• At several points over the course of the 2009 season, they were made aware by players that preparations were not up to the required standards and that team morale was quite poor."
So why meet the county board then?
Calls for a players' rep, no such thing as 'player power' but we'll play if Justin is removed,we've received great support and we make huge sacrifices.
There are so many similarities to Cork but these boys are being slightly more subtle in their approach.
I don't believe for one minute these boys have simply walked away, haven't met, haven't discussed their situation or aren't getting advice from Cork and the GPA.
If the county board or Justin don't respond in public, in theory that should be the end of it.
We'll see.
Seems to me like Cork repeating all over again. Players deciding how they would play and villifying the manager in particular and the CB as a by the way when they don't have the power they want.
As for yourself Reillers, you've a bit of a brass neck. Did you not go on about how none of understood the Cork dispute, the CB and Frank Murphy. Well this is a different CB and there's no Frank.
Quote from: dowling on January 20, 2010, 01:02:39 AM
As for yourself Reillers, you've a bit of a brass neck. Did you not go on about how none of understood the Cork dispute, the CB and Frank Murphy. Well this is a different CB and there's no Frank.
I never said about my position on the Limerick situation, I was just pointing out how much of a hypocrite he was being. He made out all along that what he was against in the Cork situation was not the players but their actions, but refuse to show the same outrage and such about Limerick that he did when it came to Cork, when the same things should be infuriating him here. Instead he refuses to acknowledge it at all.
Quote from: dowling on January 20, 2010, 12:52:18 AM
Indiana I wouldn't have been too far apart from you on the Cork dispute but I have to say I think you're reading this this one wrongly and missing potential consequences.
They're not training on their own - were the Cork strikers ever really doing any serious training on their own or was all the talk a PR exercise - but they have now said, "...we will not play any active part in the 2010 Limerick senior hurling panel while the present management is in place." Seems that what the Cork strikers started off saying and the Limerick boys haven't given up on playing. Strange?
Coming up with their own gameplan? Donal óg and his puck outs. Similar?
'We could have said something but didn't.' Even though they said they hadn't said anything. Contradiction?
"...lack of discipline or commitment". Who determines that?
"As a result of his failure to clarify instances where discipline was breached or a lack of commitment was evident, each player made a voluntary decision regarding their availability for the 2010 panel under the current management."
So this was an issue before Justin's interview.
"...players' representatives were asked to consider meeting the 2010 management with a view to discussing the main issues and concerns of panel members. While they were receptive to arranging a meeting, the players felt that it would achieve little,...". Now tell me that's not 'Cork-like'.
"His further assertion that "players were trying to get rid of us" is without any basis."
No need to contact the county board then. Right?
"This situation has been poorly handled by the County Board on a number of fronts:
• At several points over the course of the 2009 season, they were made aware by players that preparations were not up to the required standards and that team morale was quite poor."
So why meet the county board then?
Calls for a players' rep, no such thing as 'player power' but we'll play if Justin is removed,we've received great support and we make huge sacrifices.
There are so many similarities to Cork but these boys are being slightly more subtle in their approach.
I don't believe for one minute these boys have simply walked away, haven't met, haven't discussed their situation or aren't getting advice from Cork and the GPA.
If the county board or Justin don't respond in public, in theory that should be the end of it.
We'll see.
Seems to me like Cork repeating all over again. Players deciding how they would play and villifying the manager in particular and the CB as a by the way when they don't have the power they want.
I don't agree with half..well most of that. But at least your consistant. You had issues with what the Cork players did, and you now have issues with what the Limerick players did. Indy just had problems with the Cork players in general, but would never admit it.
And to be fair, everyone I know who was against the Cork players during the strike, who's read Donal Og's book (which is excellent to be fair) have changed their mind a lot in parts. There's this one lad I know, the most anti Cork players person I know, and he (brilliantly, as a joke) got a present of Donal Og's autobiograpy for Christmas and after he swore he'd never read it, he said he'd rather..well it doesn't matter what he said..really shouldn't repeat it. But he got that bored on a flight back to Australia and ending up reading it anyway. The conclusion he came to. Donal Og is up his own arse completley (that didn't change in his view) but also that he'd make a good manager, there's no messing around it's straight to the point with him (which is not always a good thing I'm told) but more importantly for this is that he can see reason why they did what they did, and would be far more sympathetic to the last strike after reading it.
..But really emphasised the fact that he was up his own hole just a little too much. A good read though. I recoment ye do the same, but I'd be wasting my time completley.
So where do you stand on this dispute?
Quote from: dowling on January 20, 2010, 01:15:33 AM
So where do you stand on this dispute?
Well like you said I've no right to criticise them, for me, the players have a right to walk away if they want. They're doing it, well have done so far, a lot neater then what happened in Cork, probably because of the little history there, that was viewable to people outside Cork anyway.
I remember thinking that they were throwing a bit of a strop at the very start for a while just because Justin dropped a few of them, (even though I didn't agree with some of the players he dropped) but obviously things ran a lot deeper then not being picked, much deeper.
What happened in Cork, because of the media involvement and the whole country looking and judging and criticising, the emotions ran so high and knee jerk reactions happened, because of the high profile players and the history there, and it became so long and draining and it killed our season, that's the price they paid, we had no season what so ever, no training, nothing.
What the players are doing they've a mighty reason for it and believe me it's not something they engage in lightly, and Justin, like Gerald will feel he has every right to stand his ground. And just like Gerald, as a GAA legend he'll have support, like he does now. But there will only be one outcome and I think we all know that.
It hasn't gotten that personal in Limerick yet, if they keep it that way things will be resolved a lot quicker. Things were said and done in Cork that happened in the heat of the moment in a knee jerk reaction that couldn't be taken back. I think that the likes of Limerick would have learned from that. But if they keep it like it is now, calm and clean, then it will resolve itself.
Limerick isn't Cork, they don't have anywhere near the same amount of players to choose from to pick another squad. So there will be more mounting presure, more then there is now on Justin.
Justin will loose, right or wrong. He'll loose. If it's clean cut then the mess wont drag out as long I'd say and the damage might still be repairable.
Limerick haven't made the same mistakes that were made in Cork. And for the sake of the GAA I hope they don't. I don't know if the GAA or the public could stomach another full blown strike.
I agree and backed the Cork players because I knew they were right, and the end result proved it to be true, but I remember someone commenting about the players rebellion, it wasn't about agreeing with it, it was about what happened next, and that when the dalm breaks..
And that might be the case here.
"Justin will loose, right or wrong. He'll loose."
I'll bet you a thousand euro Justin Mc Carthy will be the team manager 2011 onwards . He will be going nowhere .
this one is a strange one as for whatever reasons the players aren't getting the same support from the Limerick shoppers, media and club delegates as was the case in Cork and Clare.
The (ex)players release a statement with their concerns and issues yet at a meeting of the Limerick county board last night it wasn't even discussed, maybe the Limerick Co board were sticking rigidly to the rules of AOB or whatever but I'm sure that will irk the disaffected players.
Are the Limerick county board burying their heads in the sand and hoping the issue blows over or are they really that steadast behind Justin? only time will tell.
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 12:19:21 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 19, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite.
The first 'accusations' from anyone was the orchestrated leak by the Strikers to Kieran Shannon (Everyones favourite GPA-loving Journo) on the October Bank holiday in 2008 - it was an in depth piece which contained numerous personalised attacks on Gerald McCarthys character & coaching abilities.
I've no desire to get into the issue again (mainly because we were right then) but thats fact.
If you disagree with this matter of record, please produce a quote from McCarthy before the October Bank holiday 2008 - otherwise give over about your bunch of ignorant militants.
Leaked being the word, Gerald reacted with a snowball of statement after statement. With accusations after acusations, and eventually called the meeting where the press were aloud in. Then the tied changed. But Gerald was in the media whining and whining every minute of the day. The players didn't make near as many statements to the press despite them getting completley slated. But hey..not like that matters. They're just all "ignorant militants" good to know what you think of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy.etc. Good to know you've no respect for players like them.
So you agree that the first side to conduct their business through the media was the Strikers?
Quote from: heffo on January 20, 2010, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 12:19:21 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 19, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite.
The first 'accusations' from anyone was the orchestrated leak by the Strikers to Kieran Shannon (Everyones favourite GPA-loving Journo) on the October Bank holiday in 2008 - it was an in depth piece which contained numerous personalised attacks on Gerald McCarthys character & coaching abilities.
I've no desire to get into the issue again (mainly because we were right then) but thats fact.
If you disagree with this matter of record, please produce a quote from McCarthy before the October Bank holiday 2008 - otherwise give over about your bunch of ignorant militants.
Leaked being the word, Gerald reacted with a snowball of statement after statement. With accusations after acusations, and eventually called the meeting where the press were aloud in. Then the tied changed. But Gerald was in the media whining and whining every minute of the day. The players didn't make near as many statements to the press despite them getting completley slated. But hey..not like that matters. They're just all "ignorant militants" good to know what you think of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy.etc. Good to know you've no respect for players like them.
So you agree that the first side to conduct their business through the media was the Strikers?
Why does it matter, and like you said it was a journalist, not the players. No players were mentioned in the article, and Shannon is not a player.
And like I said it's good to see what your true feelings are of the likes of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy..etc. "ignorant millitants" oh so little respect to players who've given years of service, much more then you could ever imagine.
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on January 20, 2010, 06:49:55 AM
"Justin will loose, right or wrong. He'll loose."
I'll bet you a thousand euro Justin Mc Carthy will be the team manager 2011 onwards . He will be going nowhere .
Hahaha..no.
For me he's been under a lot of pressure and it's just getting heavier and heavier.
But that said, he has got backing.
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 20, 2010, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 12:19:21 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 19, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite.
The first 'accusations' from anyone was the orchestrated leak by the Strikers to Kieran Shannon (Everyones favourite GPA-loving Journo) on the October Bank holiday in 2008 - it was an in depth piece which contained numerous personalised attacks on Gerald McCarthys character & coaching abilities.
I've no desire to get into the issue again (mainly because we were right then) but thats fact.
If you disagree with this matter of record, please produce a quote from McCarthy before the October Bank holiday 2008 - otherwise give over about your bunch of ignorant militants.
Leaked being the word, Gerald reacted with a snowball of statement after statement. With accusations after acusations, and eventually called the meeting where the press were aloud in. Then the tied changed. But Gerald was in the media whining and whining every minute of the day. The players didn't make near as many statements to the press despite them getting completley slated. But hey..not like that matters. They're just all "ignorant militants" good to know what you think of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy.etc. Good to know you've no respect for players like them.
So you agree that the first side to conduct their business through the media was the Strikers?
Why does it matter, and like you said it was a journalist, not the players. No players were mentioned in the article, and Shannon is not a player.
And like I said it's good to see what your true feelings are of the likes of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy..etc. "ignorant millitants" oh so little respect to players who've given years of service, much more then you could ever imagine.
It matters because:
1. You gave the impression that the only reason the Strikers were washing their dirty linen in public was to respond to Ger Mc's criticisms - this is entirely false
2. "it was a journalist, not the players" - it was the players who sat down with Kieran Shannon for an entire afternoon and fed him all that bull that his entire article was based on
Quote from: dowling on January 20, 2010, 12:52:18 AM
Indiana I wouldn't have been too far apart from you on the Cork dispute but I have to say I think you're reading this this one wrongly and missing potential consequences.
They're not training on their own - were the Cork strikers ever really doing any serious training on their own or was all the talk a PR exercise - but they have now said, "...we will not play any active part in the 2010 Limerick senior hurling panel while the present management is in place." Seems that what the Cork strikers started off saying and the Limerick boys haven't given up on playing. Strange?
Coming up with their own gameplan? Donal óg and his puck outs. Similar?
'We could have said something but didn't.' Even though they said they hadn't said anything. Contradiction?
"...lack of discipline or commitment". Who determines that?
"As a result of his failure to clarify instances where discipline was breached or a lack of commitment was evident, each player made a voluntary decision regarding their availability for the 2010 panel under the current management."
So this was an issue before Justin's interview.
"...players' representatives were asked to consider meeting the 2010 management with a view to discussing the main issues and concerns of panel members. While they were receptive to arranging a meeting, the players felt that it would achieve little,...". Now tell me that's not 'Cork-like'.
"His further assertion that "players were trying to get rid of us" is without any basis."
No need to contact the county board then. Right?
"This situation has been poorly handled by the County Board on a number of fronts:
• At several points over the course of the 2009 season, they were made aware by players that preparations were not up to the required standards and that team morale was quite poor."
So why meet the county board then?
Calls for a players' rep, no such thing as 'player power' but we'll play if Justin is removed,we've received great support and we make huge sacrifices.
There are so many similarities to Cork but these boys are being slightly more subtle in their approach.
I don't believe for one minute these boys have simply walked away, haven't met, haven't discussed their situation or aren't getting advice from Cork and the GPA.
If the county board or Justin don't respond in public, in theory that should be the end of it.
We'll see.
Seems to me like Cork repeating all over again. Players deciding how they would play and villifying the manager in particular and the CB as a by the way when they don't have the power they want.
I don't agree. Gerald didn't jettison any of the ringleaders of the strike. They removed themselves. Justin identified 10-12 players he didn't want anymore and got rid of them before the season started. Gerald also never insulted the Cork players in public. Justin chose to make some comments on some of the Limerick players in public. Whether they are true or not I don't know- I don't have connections in limerick. But they are entitled to the right of reply if someone makes a public statement about them especially in relation to their social activities. You have to remember some of the Limerick players jettisoned are tee-totallers so you would wonder is Justin losing the plot a bit. Justin should have simply said i think there are better hurlers than them in limerick. thats what the smart man would have done.
Another 10 players left becasue they don't like him as a manager. Eamonn Heery didn't like Pat O Neill in the 90's and quit. Players do this all the time and they are entitled to. Limerick aren't training on their own and they are letting Justin get on with it. the Limerick county board have backed Justin and the clubs are behind him. The fact that they are going to get annilaited in the league is a completely different issue.
Gerald was stitched up in my view- Justin hasn't been.
Quote from: heffo on January 20, 2010, 01:30:01 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 20, 2010, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 12:19:21 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 19, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite.
The first 'accusations' from anyone was the orchestrated leak by the Strikers to Kieran Shannon (Everyones favourite GPA-loving Journo) on the October Bank holiday in 2008 - it was an in depth piece which contained numerous personalised attacks on Gerald McCarthys character & coaching abilities.
I've no desire to get into the issue again (mainly because we were right then) but thats fact.
If you disagree with this matter of record, please produce a quote from McCarthy before the October Bank holiday 2008 - otherwise give over about your bunch of ignorant militants.
Leaked being the word, Gerald reacted with a snowball of statement after statement. With accusations after acusations, and eventually called the meeting where the press were aloud in. Then the tied changed. But Gerald was in the media whining and whining every minute of the day. The players didn't make near as many statements to the press despite them getting completley slated. But hey..not like that matters. They're just all "ignorant militants" good to know what you think of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy.etc. Good to know you've no respect for players like them.
So you agree that the first side to conduct their business through the media was the Strikers?
Why does it matter, and like you said it was a journalist, not the players. No players were mentioned in the article, and Shannon is not a player.
And like I said it's good to see what your true feelings are of the likes of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy..etc. "ignorant millitants" oh so little respect to players who've given years of service, much more then you could ever imagine.
It matters because:
1. You gave the impression that the only reason the Strikers were washing their dirty linen in public was to respond to Ger Mc's criticisms - this is entirely false
2. "it was a journalist, not the players" - it was the players who sat down with Kieran Shannon for an entire afternoon and fed him all that bull that his entire article was based on
Shannon put out a piece, so what. He never mentioned any players and most of what he said was a personalised few from himself. You don't know how he get the info and making speculations about them sitting there for an afternoon feeding him bull is a joke.
And at the end of the day the players made 8/9 statements while Gerald made over 35 statements, that's says it all really. And those 8/9 were all responses to Gerald if I remember right. Shannon's piece was not a statement from the players, like I said you've not a clue how he got those tiny bits of info.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 20, 2010, 01:42:05 PM
Quote from: dowling on January 20, 2010, 12:52:18 AM
Indiana I wouldn't have been too far apart from you on the Cork dispute but I have to say I think you're reading this this one wrongly and missing potential consequences.
They're not training on their own - were the Cork strikers ever really doing any serious training on their own or was all the talk a PR exercise - but they have now said, "...we will not play any active part in the 2010 Limerick senior hurling panel while the present management is in place." Seems that what the Cork strikers started off saying and the Limerick boys haven't given up on playing. Strange?
Coming up with their own gameplan? Donal óg and his puck outs. Similar?
'We could have said something but didn't.' Even though they said they hadn't said anything. Contradiction?
"...lack of discipline or commitment". Who determines that?
"As a result of his failure to clarify instances where discipline was breached or a lack of commitment was evident, each player made a voluntary decision regarding their availability for the 2010 panel under the current management."
So this was an issue before Justin's interview.
"...players' representatives were asked to consider meeting the 2010 management with a view to discussing the main issues and concerns of panel members. While they were receptive to arranging a meeting, the players felt that it would achieve little,...". Now tell me that's not 'Cork-like'.
"His further assertion that "players were trying to get rid of us" is without any basis."
No need to contact the county board then. Right?
"This situation has been poorly handled by the County Board on a number of fronts:
• At several points over the course of the 2009 season, they were made aware by players that preparations were not up to the required standards and that team morale was quite poor."
So why meet the county board then?
Calls for a players' rep, no such thing as 'player power' but we'll play if Justin is removed,we've received great support and we make huge sacrifices.
There are so many similarities to Cork but these boys are being slightly more subtle in their approach.
I don't believe for one minute these boys have simply walked away, haven't met, haven't discussed their situation or aren't getting advice from Cork and the GPA.
If the county board or Justin don't respond in public, in theory that should be the end of it.
We'll see.
Seems to me like Cork repeating all over again. Players deciding how they would play and villifying the manager in particular and the CB as a by the way when they don't have the power they want.
I don't agree. Gerald didn't jettison any of the ringleaders of the strike. They removed themselves. Justin identified 10-12 players he didn't want anymore and got rid of them before the season started. Gerald also never insulted the Cork players in public. Justin chose to make some comments on some of the Limerick players in public. Whether they are true or not I don't know- I don't have connections in limerick. But they are entitled to the right of reply if someone makes a public statement about them especially in relation to their social activities. You have to remember some of the Limerick players jettisoned are tee-totallers so you would wonder is Justin losing the plot a bit. Justin should have simply said i think there are better hurlers than them in limerick. thats what the smart man would have done.
Another 10 players left becasue they don't like him as a manager. Eamonn Heery didn't like Pat O Neill in the 90's and quit. Players do this all the time and they are entitled to. Limerick aren't training on their own and they are letting Justin get on with it. the Limerick county board have backed Justin and the clubs are behind him. The fact that they are going to get annilaited in the league is a completely different issue.
Gerald was stitched up in my view- Justin hasn't been.
There's no doubt that Limerick players haven't been to the press in the same way as the Cork strikers were but neither have they been keeping the air of dignified silence they've proclaimed. Throughout this dispute there have been player interviews in the press. On top of that they have now qualified their 'walking away' by stating they wont play under the present management. We have to assume they will play under a different management which is agreeable to them so in effect we can describe them as being on strike. All this actually puts Justin's interview in the context of a response to the players.
Even every time a player 'walked away' it was making a statement - indeed in most media reports these occasions are described as protests - so Justin is quite entitled to respond.
Ger didn't axe a number of players but maybe he should have but of course he had more to lose and probably thought he could bring certain players round. I don't think Justin's criticisms are that personal or identifying, unless I've missed a piece somewhere. But the players themselves in their statement acknowledge the truth in Justins. If there weren't individuals trying to get rid of him why did they approach the county board last year and what were they after? And if players were approaching the county board were they doing so as individuals or were there organised player meetings. We already know they had at least one about a gameplan.
I don't believe this dispute began with the dropping of certain players and I'm convinced that, at least for a number of players on protest, there has never been any intention not to try to win this dispute.
Also on the players' statement, as well as an attempt to rebutt Justin I believe it's also an attempt to show solidarity and unity among those players and not dissimilar to the Cork strikers. The approach is just slightly different and I'd guess that's because of lessons learned from the Cork dispute.
And why exactly are the dropped players and the protesting players putting on a show of unity and solidarity?
I'd be surprised if there's not more to come from them. They probably see a couple of games into the national league as being a timeline so they probably don't see much need for urgency at present and maybe see a few heavy beatings helping their cause.
As for your position Reillers, you constantly told us the Cork dispute was really about FM and the CB, two elements missing here so surely you cant back the protesters.
"Gerald was stitched up in my view- Justin hasn't been"
I don't don't how you can say that Indy . The players have walked away leaving Justin with his p***k in his hand .
As far as I'm concerned that's a stitch up .
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on January 20, 2010, 03:06:39 PM
"Gerald was stitched up in my view- Justin hasn't been"
I don't don't how you can say that Indy . The players have walked away leaving Justin with his p***k in his hand .
As far as I'm concerned that's a stitch up .
How- Justin doesn't want 12 of the 24 players anyway And most limerick observers would say from my reading that 5/6 of the best players in limerick are in that 12.
Of the other 12- most limerick people would say they are replaceable bar Gav O Mahony and Seamus Hickey. Most of the 24- their services aren't required anyway.
Contrast that to Gerald who simply had the whole squad walk away. Never at any stage did Gerald make any attempts not to select Og Cusack, O Hailpin or Curran- yet they said adios.
I really can't see them as the same situations.
And I'm not saying Justin is wrong. justin as manager was entitled to get rid of 12-15 players. Which he duly did. I can't remember Gerald turfing out 12 Cork hurlers.
Limerick hurling selector John Tuohy has told RTÉ Sport that he is optimistic that a resolution can be found to end the ongoing impasse between the players and management in the county.
Speaking on Drivetime Sport, Tuohy said both parties are currently in talks to resolve the issues that have caused the current spilt.
Tuohy himself is acting as a mediator in the dispute.
He remains hopeful that most of those players in self imposed exile will return.
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 02:30:07 PM
Quote from: heffo on January 20, 2010, 01:30:01 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 20, 2010, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: Reillers on January 20, 2010, 12:19:21 AM
Quote from: heffo on January 19, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Reillers on January 19, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I fail to see the similarities.
-The Limerick players haven't formed a renegade panel to train on their own
- 12 of them have voluntarily withdrawn their services- remember Justin had discarded 12 of them as well. Thats their right
-They have accepted Justin's entitlement to pick his own panel and are letting him get on with it.
- they haven't organised press conferences for announcements.
Seems to me they just answered some of the claims out there from Justin. I think both sides are to blame but I can't see the similarities between this and the Cork case. If they don't want to play for Justin thats fine by me. They are entitled not to do so.
Hypocrite, you weren't too pleased when the Cork lads answered some of the claims out there from Gerald, and they were a lot, statement after statement of accusations, but anytime the Cork players answered to them you threw a miny little fit, but like I said, hypocrite.
The first 'accusations' from anyone was the orchestrated leak by the Strikers to Kieran Shannon (Everyones favourite GPA-loving Journo) on the October Bank holiday in 2008 - it was an in depth piece which contained numerous personalised attacks on Gerald McCarthys character & coaching abilities.
I've no desire to get into the issue again (mainly because we were right then) but thats fact.
If you disagree with this matter of record, please produce a quote from McCarthy before the October Bank holiday 2008 - otherwise give over about your bunch of ignorant militants.
Leaked being the word, Gerald reacted with a snowball of statement after statement. With accusations after acusations, and eventually called the meeting where the press were aloud in. Then the tied changed. But Gerald was in the media whining and whining every minute of the day. The players didn't make near as many statements to the press despite them getting completley slated. But hey..not like that matters. They're just all "ignorant militants" good to know what you think of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy.etc. Good to know you've no respect for players like them.
So you agree that the first side to conduct their business through the media was the Strikers?
Why does it matter, and like you said it was a journalist, not the players. No players were mentioned in the article, and Shannon is not a player.
And like I said it's good to see what your true feelings are of the likes of Joe Deane, Timmy McCarthy..etc. "ignorant millitants" oh so little respect to players who've given years of service, much more then you could ever imagine.
It matters because:
1. You gave the impression that the only reason the Strikers were washing their dirty linen in public was to respond to Ger Mc's criticisms - this is entirely false
2. "it was a journalist, not the players" - it was the players who sat down with Kieran Shannon for an entire afternoon and fed him all that bull that his entire article was based on
Shannon put out a piece, so what. He never mentioned any players and most of what he said was a personalised few from himself. You don't know how he get the info and making speculations about them sitting there for an afternoon feeding him bull is a joke.
It's not idle 'speculations' at all - I do know how he got his information.
He was able to write detailed information on the contents of sandwiches for the Cork players lunch in Lawlors hotel in Dungarvan, what Donal Og thought of those sandwiches.
He was able to write exactly what was said to Donal Og when the keeper completely disregarded his managers instructions on puck outs.
He was able to write exactly exactly what was said to Timmy McCarthy in an exchange between Timmy & Ger Mc
Indeed, Reillers - it wasn't a leaked piece from the Strikers. Indeed.
Keep the faith Chemical Reillers.
lost to carlow last weekend. Only a challenge but the signs aren't good.
Carlow are improving but that's still a cause for concern.
Some positive results at the weekend with Offaly beating Kilkenny and laois taking Galway to extra time as well. It's good to see it.
Yes these are two great results but I'm not going to say that the Carlow result is a reason for Limerick supporters to start freeking out . Way too early for a long term analyses , they only played three times together and the selection process has yet to tweak itself to a forward moving consistency . Positivity is going to be key here in the process of building a new team whatever results come their way this season and onward . I do hope that management are taking things on board over the last two months or so and empower themselves to instill into their new team belief and skill , style and consistency . I think this will happen . Keep the faith .
Quote from: Asal Mor on February 03, 2010, 02:46:45 PM
Some positive results at the weekend with Offaly beating Kilkenny and laois taking Galway to extra time as well. It's good to see it.
Hold tough now. I wouldn't be swinging from the rafters just yet. It's nice for Offaly to beat a team from Kilkenny in a 'competitive' game for the first time since '98, but that's all it was. A team from Kilkenny.
If we can beat the real Kilkenny team in the league in a month or so, that'll be worth getting excited about.
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on February 04, 2010, 12:35:30 AM
Yes these are two great results but I'm not going to say that the Carlow result is a reason for Limerick supporters to start freeking out . Way too early for a long term analyses , they only played three times together and the selection process has yet to tweak itself to a forward moving consistency . Positivity is going to be key here in the process of building a new team whatever results come their way this season and onward . I do hope that management are taking things on board over the last two months or so and empower themselves to instill into their new team belief and skill , style and consistency . I think this will happen . Keep the faith .
Unfortunately for all parties they are going to lose every game in the NHL and every Limerick fan knows it. If hurling goes to div 2 in limerick may as well hand over the keys of the Gaelic Grounds to Munster rugby. Its a sad situation unfortunately.
I know what you mean AZ. I saw the Kilkenny team and it wasn't too familiar looking but still, they go all out to win every game and we have seen Kilkenny second and third teams dish out a few hidings in recent years.
Quote from: INDIANA on February 04, 2010, 09:51:03 AM
If hurling goes to div 2 in limerick may as well hand over the keys of the Gaelic Grounds to Munster rugby.
Indy I do believe that you're a knowledgeable GAA man but surely you can see that that statement there is way over the top and very unhelpful . That is way too absolute for my liking . There is no denying that the new lads will receive losses in the coming months . They will be beaten by experience . Anywhere I've read about this it's all woe and despair which I think myself is a bit too presumtuous . Maybe it could be said that I'm burying my head in the sand hoping that things will improve but as far as I can make out though there is just way too much negative spin surrounding this whole affair .
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on February 04, 2010, 07:01:33 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on February 04, 2010, 09:51:03 AM
If hurling goes to div 2 in limerick may as well hand over the keys of the Gaelic Grounds to Munster rugby.
Indy I do believe that you're a knowledgeable GAA man but surely you can see that that statement there is way over the top and very unhelpful . That is way too absolute for my liking . There is no denying that the new lads will receive losses in the coming months . They will be beaten by experience . Anywhere I've read about this it's all woe and despair which I think myself is a bit too presumtuous . Maybe it could be said that I'm burying my head in the sand hoping that things will improve but as far as I can make out though there is just way too much negative spin surrounding this whole affair .
Its whats going to happen. Limerick's 3rd string which this is - is nowhere near Corks 3rd string. Will be beaten out the gate. There fault all over in this- but Limerick hurling and its future is more important.
What you're saying is total worse case material here Indy and even at that there'l still be hurling in Limerick . If/when they are relegated that is not the end of the world for Limerick . Hurling will come good again in Limerick . The myth regarding rugby stealing the hearts and minds of Limerick hurling folk is still alive and well I see , this will never happen It is something that is projected on to Limerick GAA from people who do not live here .
Yes it's a mess at the moment but this will be old news next year. Justin may or may not go at the end of this season , all depending on how this year fares out . When he was first brought in I was thrilled ( disgusted Ritchie was blackguarded but that's another story ) and believed that the man would put together a competitive team who would trust themselves that they can win but look what has happened instead , unbelievable really that the players have done this to their supporters . Wait and see I say and here's hoping .
Read a piece yesterday by Tom Ryan - jesus but he really sticks arm, legs and eveything else he has into Justin. He seems to be a bitter boy.
Quote from: orangeman on February 13, 2010, 12:23:49 PM
Read a piece yesterday by Tom Ryan - jesus but he really sticks arm, legs and eveything else he has into Justin. He seems to be a bitter boy.
Reading another piece now by Tom Ryan - jesus but he's bitter !!
I see John Hayes is wading in to bring a resolution. ;)
Quote from: trileacman on February 25, 2010, 05:56:43 PM
I see John Hayes is wading in to bring a resolution. ;)
He'd sort them out. Hayes would be a big hurling man as well.
Six wides for limerick after 19 min
Limerick 0-03 1-05 Cork, Gaelic Grounds
http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/2010/02/27/weekend-gaa-fixtures-live-scores-team-news-27th-28th-february/
1-10 to 0-7 for cork at the half, Cork not impressive at all but should pull away in the second half!!
Cork secured their second successive win in Allianz NHL Division 1, getting the better of Limerick at the Gaelic Grounds.
Cork target man Michael Cussen crowned his first league start with a third minute goal and went on to score 1-05 in an eye-catching display.
Nicky Quaid opened Limerick's account but they hit eight first half wides and trailed by 1-10 to 0-07 at half-time.
Substitute Thomas O'Brien netted for Limerick in the second period, but a subsequent goal from Cork's Cian McCarthy sealed the result.
Limerick manager Justin McCarthy, who watched his young and inexperienced side lose to Galway in their league opener, made one enforced change for tonight's game - bringing Ahane's Mike Carr in at left half-back for Cathal King who is out of the country this weekend.
Cork boss Denis Walsh tested his squad depth by making seven changes, including call-ups for goalkeeper Martin Coleman, dual player Eoin Cadogan and wing forwards Fintan O'Leary and Graham Calnan.
Dual player Cussen, another new starter, was a constant threat to a Limerick side that again showed heart and enthusiasm but they were well outplayed in the end.
Cussen struck Cork's opening goal with only his second touch of the game and while Quaid got Limerick off the mark, the hosts were 1-05 to 0-03 behind after 20 minutes.
McCarthy also lost the services of impressive league debutant Carr to injury, eight minutes later. With Tom Kenny and John Gardiner excelling around centre-field, the Rebels pushed on and they were six points ahead at the break.
Limerick corner forward Alan O'Connor opened the second half with a point, but Cork hit the next five scores without reply as they cantered clear.
The home side gave themselves some hope when substitute O'Brien wriggled through for a well-taken goal, cutting the gap back to six.
O'Brien from the Patrickswell club, who scored 1-02, is a hugely promising player and the manner in which he took his goal, within seconds of his arrival on the pitch, indicates a bright future for him.
However, McCarthy's men had no answer when McCarthy picked off Cork's second goal and with free-taker Patrick Horgan taking his tally to 0-06, the winning margin was double figures by the finish.
This ten-point defeat is sure to spark renewed calls for a new Limerick management which would pave the way for a return to the squad of a number of those dropped by McCarthy and others who walked away in protest.
The next meeting of Limerick County Board is planned for Tuesday week.
Tonight, Cork simply had far too much experience and the likes of Gardiner, Kenny and Shane O'Neill plus Cussen, Horgan and Mark O'Sullivan always had Limerick battling against the odds.
Limerick's Lorcan O'Dwyer, Quaid and Paul Browne all did well, but a long and difficult road lies ahead for the Shannonsiders.
Scorers - Limerick: A O'Connor, 0-04 (0-04f), T O'Brien 1-02, N Quaid, P Browne, B O'Sullivan 0-02 each, P McNamara, G Mulcahy 0-01 each
Cork: M Cussen 1-05, P Horgan 0-06, (0-04f), C McCarthy 1-01, J Gardiner 0-04 (0-02 '65s, 0-01f), K Murphy 0-02, M O'Sullivan, G Calnan, N McCarthy 0-01 each
Limerick: T Flynn; D Lynch, D Kenny, S O'Neill; L O'Dwyer, A Brennan, M Carr; N Quaid, P Browne; B O'Sullivan (capt), A Owens, C Mullane; G Mulcahy, P McNamara, A O'Connor.
Subs used: M Deegan for Carr (28 mins), T O'Brien (Patrickswell) for Owens (42), P Harty for Brennan (48), C Hynes for Kenny (50), D Moore for O'Connor (60).
Cork: M Coleman; S O'Neill, E Cadogan, C O'Sullivan; B Murphy, R Curran, R Ryan; J Gardiner, T Kenny; F O'Leary, M O'Sullivan, G Calnan; K Murphy (capt), M Cussen, P Horgan.
Subs used: C McCarthy for O'Leary (50 mins), A O hAilpin for O'Sullivan (56), N McCarthy for Calnan (62), M Walsh for Gardiner (65), A Ryan for O'Neill (66).
Referee: James McGrath (Westmeath)
I'm not commenting good, bad or indifferent until I hear Reillers unique insight.
Did any of the lads on last years panel return as was being hinted this week ?
James O'Brirn was to be at training the other night but got a "flat tyre" so didn't make it...........
The row in Limerick hurling rumbles on after the protesting players isssued a statment last night heavily critical of the county board for trying to pressurise younger players to return to the panel.
The statement read: 'There has been a deliberate and concerted effort by members of the county board, the team management and the backroom team to influence the thinking of club delegates and the wider Limerick public.
'There has also been a deliberate and concerted effort to influence the younger players who have pulled out of the 2010 panel, with huge pressure being put on using one player against another in trying to persuade them to change their minds.
'We will not play under the current management despite rumours, stories and spins to the contrary, most of them coming from the county board and the current management team.
'There will be no more players returning to training. It is now up to the club delegates to address the matter with the county board executive tomorrow night the future of Limerick hurling is in their hands.'
Of course the C B are trying to convince the players back, what do they expect? They obviously are living in total denial. There is absolutely no justification for the course of action they'v taken.
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on March 08, 2010, 02:07:40 PM
Of course the C B are trying to convince the players back, what do they expect? They obviously are living in total denial. There is absolutely no justification for the course of action they'v taken.
They have decided not to make themselves available. Thats their right. they aren't training in secret like a renegade group with photo shoots in the indo every week. Its not a welcome course of action I agree. But its one thats becoming commonplace. Players have unrealsitic expectations as to what they can achieve. But the likes of Tom Ryan and Co are in denial as to what limerick hurling can achieve in the short term.
But the simple solution is for Justin to bail. It mighn't be right- but its bigger than him at this stage. If limerick get relegated I'm not sure they'll be back anytime soon.
I agree with a lot of that Indy , sure it's their right to withdraw but it doesn't really make it right does it?
Yes it would be the simple solution if Justin went hiking but I don't think it would be the right thing to do. He's lasted this long because he has the backing of most of the ordinary hurling people of Limerick.The players have somehow assumed this mantle of being pure and completely in the right and to hell with the rest. I think their long term aim is to have the C B removed ( just like Cork last year ) in order for a complete overhaul of GAA within the county. Justin is a red herring. Many people here have long been dissatisfied with the C B for their basic lack of urgency and their lethargic approach to safe guarding our games and bolstering a winning mentality in Limerick teams, there is no reason other than complacency why we have not had more success down through the years.
I would welcome a change in the L C B but I'm afraid the 09 panel have interfered in the wrong realm and are willingly letting slip their own chance at success. Seems like madness.
I know it's a huge issue for Limerick hurling. But Limerick haven't been one of the big teams that have been winning cups recently and as a consequence the dispute has rumbled on and on. The truth is that outside of Limerick, it's not a massive issue for the average GAA supporter. Cork were a big team and the players were able to get headlines, sponsorship, photoshoots, press conferences etc and in truth, people were interested in what was going on with Gerald Mc Carthy, Donal Og, Sean Og etc.
The same can't be said unfortunately for the Limerick CB, Justin and the players.
But for the bleating of Tom Ryan, it would hardly get a mention.
I must say I have respect for the Limerick players who do seem to have kept their heads down as far as possible.
As Indiana says, if they don't want to play, that's their perogative.
Actually the Limerick strikers have now started training under Derry ODonovan. All very 'Cork-like' now without a doubt. Training, show of unity and throwing the blame at the county board. And once again I would guess that the hand of the GPA is well involved here but not from the point of seeking a resolution.
While it all started as if a number of players had walked away they've either rethought and changed their tact or been persuaded by others to do so. Or maybe even a bit of both. No doubt like the Cork strike it can only get worse.
If Justin resigns it's a matter of a group of players getting their preference as to who they don't want as manager. And let's not forget some of these players aren't even potential panelists at present.
Last year Cork still wouldn't have been challanging Tipp and Kilkenny even if Gerald hadn't been manager. Limerick are unlikely to blow anyone away without Justin and will be in a relegation fight whatever happens.
The problems in Limerick hurling aren't down to Justin.
Quote from: dowling on March 08, 2010, 08:06:40 PM
. Limerick are unlikely to blow anyone away without Justin and will be in a relegation fight whatever happens.
The problems in Limerick hurling aren't down to Justin.
Full stop.
What's the latest ?
report from RTE here :
Following a meeting of the Limerick County Board on Tuesday, the idea of some third-party intervention was mentioned in an effort to solve the crisis that has engulfed the senior hurling side.
County chairman Liam Lenihan told delegates that the Board were prepared to engage a professional negotiator in an effort to break the deadlock which has left the county fielding a largely an understrength team since competitive action got underway last month.
However, delegates felt that the mediation route had been suggested last December, but had produced nothing. Frustrated delegates demanded an end to the divisive issue, either through a change of manager or a show of support for Justin McCarthy.
However, if clubs want to propose a change of management, it will have to be done in writing and considered by a special meeting.
Lenihan said that the team management and board executive were available for talks at all times.
He also expressed the view that a professional mediator was needed in the search for a solution to a row which has rumbled on since last October when McCarthy left several members of the 2009 squad off his new panel.
Lenihan denied that any pressure had been applied to younger members of the panel in an effort to persuade them to return to action.
A report from selector John Tuohy appeared to indicate that progress could still be made.
It's understood that Croke Park, who declined to enter the row a few weeks ago, were reluctant to become involved because their preliminary examination of the situation indicated that it was impossible to broker a solution at that stage.
Division 2 here we come.
Beginning of the end for Justin ???
Justin McCarthy's role as Limerick hurling manager came under more pressure last night as it became clear that a special county board meeting had been arranged.
Sources indicate that eight clubs have submitted letters to the board secretary Mike O'Riordan requestìng a special meeting be arranged. Garryspilllane were the first club to submit a request.
A minimum of five clubs must submit requests in order for a special county board meeting to go ahead. At this meeting a vote on McCarthy's leadership is likely to take place.
A vote on McCarthy's leadership took place last December. At that point it was decided to retain McCarthy's services
Better news for Limerick hurling on the school front. Ard Scoil Rís won the Harty Cup yesterday after 2 replays in a bit of an epic with Thurles. Great win for them, and I think they are the first Limerick school since 1993 to win it.
Fair play.
Quote from: orangeman on March 12, 2010, 12:21:37 PM
Beginning of the end for Justin ???
Justin McCarthy's role as Limerick hurling manager came under more pressure last night as it became clear that a special county board meeting had been arranged.
Sources indicate that eight clubs have submitted letters to the board secretary Mike O'Riordan requestìng a special meeting be arranged. Garryspilllane were the first club to submit a request.
A minimum of five clubs must submit requests in order for a special county board meeting to go ahead. At this meeting a vote on McCarthy's leadership is likely to take place.
A vote on McCarthy's leadership took place last December. At that point it was decided to retain McCarthy's services
Justin should save his dignity and just resign. There is no shame on his part but its simply becoming another looming fiasco.
Root and branch needed in Limerick. And its time for them to put dinosaurs like Tom Ryan into pasture once and for all. His comments have been extremely unhelpful trying to tell everyone that Limerick could compete at the top. Doesn't matter who manages them- they are going to be in the doldrums for a while.
Limerick are entirely unrealistic about their abilities which isn't helping but you're right a complete root and branch review is needed in Limerick. Although the players need to look at themselves as much as anyone the real problem area is the CB, they have overseen numerous managerial fiascos in the past ten years and if tehy are genuine Limerick GAA men they'll ask some serious questions of themselves.
Quote from: INDIANA on March 12, 2010, 12:50:56 PM
Quote from: orangeman on March 12, 2010, 12:21:37 PM
Beginning of the end for Justin ???
Justin McCarthy's role as Limerick hurling manager came under more pressure last night as it became clear that a special county board meeting had been arranged.
Sources indicate that eight clubs have submitted letters to the board secretary Mike O'Riordan requestìng a special meeting be arranged. Garryspilllane were the first club to submit a request.
A minimum of five clubs must submit requests in order for a special county board meeting to go ahead. At this meeting a vote on McCarthy's leadership is likely to take place.
A vote on McCarthy's leadership took place last December. At that point it was decided to retain McCarthy's services
Justin should save his dignity and just resign. There is no shame on his part but its simply becoming another looming fiasco.
Root and branch needed in Limerick. And its time for them to put dinosaurs like Tom Ryan into pasture once and for all. His comments have been extremely unhelpful trying to tell everyone that Limerick could compete at the top. Doesn't matter who manages them- they are going to be in the doldrums for a while.
....Don't know what to say about that..
Quote from: Zulu on March 12, 2010, 09:01:15 PM
Limerick are entirely unrealistic about their abilities which isn't helping but you're right a complete root and branch review is needed in Limerick. Although the players need to look at themselves as much as anyone the real problem area is the CB, they have overseen numerous managerial fiascos in the past ten years and if tehy are genuine Limerick GAA men they'll ask some serious questions of themselves.
This seems to be a very commonly levelled accusation when things go pear shaped.
In an ideal world, how would / could / should managers be appointed ?.
I wouldn't say it a common accustation at all. The CB run the GAA within their county so of course questions need to be asked when things go wrong. If your managing a business and things go tits up you have to shoulder a fair proportion of the blame, likewise CB's have to shoulder a lot of the responsibility when their players refuse to play for the county. Whatever about Cork, Limerick have gone through numerous managers over the past ten years and many of them have been shafted by the CB.
Quote from: Zulu on March 12, 2010, 11:25:49 PM
I wouldn't say it a common accustation at all. The CB run the GAA within their county so of course questions need to be asked when things go wrong. If your managing a business and things go tits up you have to shoulder a fair proportion of the blame, likewise CB's have to shoulder a lot of the responsibility when their players refuse to play for the county. Whatever about Cork, Limerick have gone through numerous managers over the past ten years and many of them have been shafted by the CB.
Once things go pear shaped, it's either the CB or more likely the manager that's to blame.
How have the managers been shafted in Limerick ?.
Does Richie feel he was shafted ?
Quote from: orangeman on March 12, 2010, 11:42:46 PM
Quote from: Zulu on March 12, 2010, 11:25:49 PM
I wouldn't say it a common accustation at all. The CB run the GAA within their county so of course questions need to be asked when things go wrong. If your managing a business and things go tits up you have to shoulder a fair proportion of the blame, likewise CB's have to shoulder a lot of the responsibility when their players refuse to play for the county. Whatever about Cork, Limerick have gone through numerous managers over the past ten years and many of them have been shafted by the CB.
Once things go pear shaped, it's either the CB or more likely the manager that's to blame.
How have the managers been shafted in Limerick ?.
Does Richie feel he was shafted ?
...Good God. I can't get over the hypocrisy on here.
Quote from: Zulu on March 12, 2010, 11:25:49 PM
I wouldn't say it a common accustation at all. The CB run the GAA within their county so of course questions need to be asked when things go wrong. If your managing a business and things go tits up you have to shoulder a fair proportion of the blame, likewise CB's have to shoulder a lot of the responsibility when their players refuse to play for the county. Whatever about Cork, Limerick have gone through numerous managers over the past ten years and many of them have been shafted by the CB.
The Limerick players though have completely unrealistic expectations as well. Similar to the Cork players they aren't prepared to accept they must shoulder some of the blame for performances.
Seems to be an issue with Justin though as regards man-management. Some of the Waterford players have been dropped to the bench by Davy Fitz -yet no outcry.
County Board have appointed so many managers in the last 10 years as well. BUt I have to say the Limerick players don't look the easiest bunch to manage. They aren't happy with anyone it seems.
It looks like some in Limerick are intent on putting manners on the Limerick boys that have retired :
Limerick hurling manager Justin McCarthy faces another vote of no confidence at a County Board meeting this evening.
A special meeting has been called where over 100 delegates will decide whether he will continue as the counties manager.
A two-thirds majority is needed to remove him but observers believe the McCarthy has enough support to remain in charge of the senior county hurling team.
The unrest in Limerick hurling circles has been going on since October when McCarthy dropped a dozen senior squad members, which led to other squad members withdrawing in protest.
McCarthy has already survived one vote of no confidence from the county board in December of last year.
Justin McCarthy will stay in charge of the Limerick senior hurlers after defeating a vote of no confidence at a specially-arranged Limerick County Board meeting at Claughaun GAA clubhouse.
http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/2010/03/23/justin-mccarthy-to-stay-on-as-limerick-manager/
Quote from: GAA_Punter on March 23, 2010, 08:55:12 PM
Justin McCarthy will stay in charge of the Limerick senior hurlers after defeating a vote of no confidence at a specially-arranged Limerick County Board meeting at Claughaun GAA clubhouse.
http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/2010/03/23/justin-mccarthy-to-stay-on-as-limerick-manager/
Jesus !!! Big news.
Limerick hurling manager Justin McCarthy will remain in his post following a failed vote of no confidence at a county board meeting this evening.
One hundred and thirty-three votes were cast at the meeting. Eighty-three votes were in favour of McCarthy retaining his position. Forty-seven votes were lodged for the motion and McCarthy to leave his role. Two votes were not returned and one vote was spoiled.
Was not expecting that, I just assumed that he would be voted out.
Obviously the support for McCarthy is a lot stronger than the media would have us believe, and maybe there is a lot of annoyance with last years players.
It'll be interesting to see if any players make a return.
Fair play to McCarthy for sticking to his guns.
I'm surprised. I thought he would be away. That's a bigger majority than he had before Christmas.
its a joke mccarthy has lost a significant section of the hurlers and that is a failure of management. its just about ego now, hurling doesn't matter.
I hope that some of the 09 squad show good character and return to the team.
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on March 24, 2010, 02:02:01 AM
I hope that some of the 09 squad show good character and return to the team.
Doubt it will happen reading the quotes from them. The squad they have now will remain. Could be painful in the championship fro them.
Quote from: Bing Crosby . on March 24, 2010, 02:02:01 AM
I hope that some of the 09 squad show good character and return to the team.
Surely good charachter would dictate that they would not return? They'd have to stick to what they believe now rather than adopying the opinion of the delegates
Do Cork and Limerick share the exact same set of club delegates that vote consistently according to how the top table tell them ?.
Or have club delegates in Limerick decided to take on player power ?.
There are some differences between the 2 conflicts to be fair:
1. The current players have not been chastised by the 09 squad.
2. There have not been any marches in Limerick in Support of the 09 players indicating that most Limerick GAA people want the co board to sort it out.
3. There was not the looming presence of a JP mc Manus hanging over things in Cork. It is said that he will withdraw support for the co board in the event of Mc Carthy being ousted!
4. The 09 squad have not won anything so have less legs to stand on. The Cork 08 squad had won a few all irelands and therefore had more weight to their grievances.
5. Hurling is the number one sport in Cork, Hurling is at best number 3 in Limerick and so most sporting people in Limerick don't care about it!
6. Both Mc Carthy and the 09 players have not gone to the media at every opportunity and so it has not descended into bitterness at the same level as the Cork one!
in my opinion there are some of the differences between the 2 disputes and so any attempt to link the 2 are incorrect and pointless!! Limerick will just have to write this year off and get thier older players back under new management next year!! Sad but true!!
Quote from: orangeman on March 24, 2010, 08:57:08 AM
Do Cork and Limerick share the exact same set of club delegates that vote consistently according to how the top table tell them ?.
Or have club delegates in Limerick decided to take on player power ?.
Bit of both really. A lot of people in Limierick have little time for the 2009 squad anymore. The only issue is the championship. I worry what might happen to them. Could lose by 25 points in the first round. No county in Ireland would survive a hiding like that. They have little or nothing coming through either.
You'd worry about Limerick hurling in general.
Ding Dong the GPA is dead.
Don't forget Limerick got hammered by 24 points in AISF last year. Get the impression that LCB are willing to take a step back in order to progress in the long term.
The clubs have spoken....... end of.
Anyway a Limerick team won the Harty Cup this year so it's not all doom and gloom for a hurling county I really admire.
Make no mistake this dispute is just as messy as the Cork one with accusations flying and media interventions from both sides, the only difference is that most people don't really care about Limerick whereas Cork are 'big time'. I wouldn't say Limerick GAA folk support their CB at all and 5 senior hurling clubs brought this vote to the floor so their is significant opposition to how this has been handled. Nevertheless it is hard to feel sympathy for any side in this one as none of them have put Limerick hurling above themselves and haven't done so for many years now.
Quote from: Zulu on March 24, 2010, 07:26:36 PM
Make no mistake this dispute is just as messy as the Cork one with accusations flying and media interventions from both sides.
I can't agree Zulu - there has been far less personalised attacks leaked from the players this time (maybe cos Kieran Shannon couldn't give a fiddlers about keeping in with the Limerick panel) and I can't for the life of me imagine there would be an organised boycott of a funeral by Mark Foley if Justin McCarthy's mother passed away..
Not on the surface heffo but that is because nobody really cares but behind the scenes there is a lot of shit flying and accusations of threats, offers of jobs to come back and play, questions about Justins 'expenses', false stories being circulated by certain people etc. It is nasty enough and the players have had to come out in the media to refute certain other media stories from the CB, so its going on, it just isn't the big news that Cork was.
Quote from: Zulu on March 24, 2010, 08:44:43 PM
Not on the surface heffo but that is because nobody really cares but behind the scenes there is a lot of shit flying and accusations of threats, offers of jobs to come back and play, questions about Justins 'expenses', false stories being circulated by certain people etc. It is nasty enough and the players have had to come out in the media to refute certain other media stories from the CB, so its going on, it just isn't the big news that Cork was.
I'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.
I don't think there's anything different at all about the disputes. Cork strikers wanted a different manager, Limerick strikers want a different manager.
Isn't it strange that the present Waterford manager is looking beyond the players Justin put down the pecking order, the same players who instigated Justin's departure. Maybe you can instigate such a departure once or it shows you up.
If Justin was being stubborn or 'suchlike' why did he leave the Waterford job but dig in now?
Anyway it's probably all academic in the long run after Duffy's comments this week which point at an acceptance of paying managers. That will mean acceptance of paying players and when that officially happens the players will call all shots. The GPA's argument has been from the start that the 'big wigs' are profitting so why shouldn't the players. Bringing the managers into the equation sets up another tier. Maybe it's time to get rid of the salaried officials or to at least drastically reduce their salaries.
QuoteI'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.
It isn't a typo and it appears it is only you who is out of the loop, everyone else knows what's going on.
QuoteAnyway it's probably all academic in the long run after Duffy's comments this week which point at an acceptance of paying managers. That will mean acceptance of paying players and when that officially happens the players will call all shots.
Nonsense, is there no end to your doomsday predictions?
QuoteThe GPA's argument has been from the start that the 'big wigs' are profitting so why shouldn't the players.
No it hasn't.
QuoteBringing the managers into the equation sets up another tier.
Managers and coaches have been paid for quite some time now and players have never sought to be paid on the back of this so why would that change?
QuoteMaybe it's time to get rid of the salaried officials or to at least drastically reduce their salaries.
Good idea, lets throw the baby out with the bath water.
MIKE O'BRIEN doesn't normally do interviews, notoriously gun-shy when it comes to facing any kind of microphone, so when you get a call from him saying he wants to talk, you know that this is an upset individual.
"I'm bulling," said the Glenroe farmer. It's not a raging anger but it's deep, has been building for some time, and now it needs ventilating.
It was an interview given shortly after that cull in which McCarthy made several statements suggesting that ill-discipline and a lack of commitment was behind his decision. It's all that has happened since then, culminating in the vote at a special county board meeting last Tuesday night in which an overwhelming majority of delegates – including the delegate from O'Brien's own club, Glenroe – voted their support for the manager.
"Since 1998, when I was called on to the panel by Eamonn Cregan, I've travelled into Limerick three or four times a week, 30 miles there, 30 miles back, and to be honest, that's all I ever wanted to do. Once I got on to that panel, nothing else mattered – farming, my social life, all came behind hurling.
"Glenroe is a small place on the edge of south Limerick, only about 300 people, and I'm the first ever from this club to play senior hurling championship with Limerick; that's a huge honour for me, and I've always felt that, I take great pride in that.
"Often the milking-machine might be going late into the night, to accommodate a match in the afternoon or early evening – that was never a problem, that's what I wanted to do.
"But, when your time is up, your time is up. I'm 32 years of age and if Justin McCarthy felt I was no longer of any use to him, if he had picked up the phone and told me 'You're not in my plans for 2010', I would have had no problem with that, none whatsoever. It was only a matter of common courtesy; any time I wasn't able to make training – and that wasn't very often, I can tell you – I'd pick up the phone and contact Justin.
"To pick up your local paper then and read that you were dropped because of disciplinary problems – I never wanted any kind of praise for anything I did, I did it because I wanted to do it, but I don't want to read that kind of stuff in the paper either, people who don't know me getting that impression.
"That I found really hard to take, and still do. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I travel 30 miles into training, 30 miles home again afterwards, often got home at nearly midnight. Many an evening I had to leave my father here to finish the cows for me, a man in his late 70s, so I could rush in to training.
"I prepared for every championship game like it was my last, and even in the league I had the same attitude. There was never any messing, I always prepared to the letter of the law – no-one can tell me that my preparation was ever less than 100%."
WHAT about everyone else though – did the same apply to them? "I've heard the rumours, and it's bullshit. We never lost a championship match because of drinking, we lost because we weren't good enough on the day.
"I wouldn't have tolerated it anyway; I'm travelling in and out from Glenroe, an hour in, an hour out; I don't drink, I look after myself – wouldn't I be some fool if I tolerated fellas around me acting the goat? I'd have to look at my own commitment if that was going on, but it wasn't.
"In fact, during the year, and on many occasions, Justin McCarthy told us we were one of the best teams to train that he ever trained, that we were a pleasure to train – then he comes out and says this. It doesn't add up. There was no more drinking going on in Limerick than any other county, probably less than a lot of them.
"As far as I'm concerned, there's far too much focus on the players in all of this, and not enough on the manager, nor the county board. Ask yourself this – how many Limerick players went well last year? If three or four students fail their exams from a class of 30, you might blame the students, but if all 30 fail, who do you blame?
"And yet, after losing to Tipperary in the All-Ireland semi-final by 24 points, Justin was never called in by the board and asked to explain what had gone wrong. Instead, he cuts 12 guys from the panel, without a phone call, with an inference that it was because of a lack of discipline, and again he's not asked for an explanation.
"Among the players he cuts are some of the best players in the county, with no readymade replacements lined up – how can that be right? Where's the sense in that? Liam Lenihan is chairman of the county board, the man in charge, the top dog; how could he preside over all this? Why did he never bring in Justin after that defeat against Tipperary? Why wasn't Justin told – 'Look, Limerick is a proud hurling county but to be beaten in Croke Park in an All-Ireland semi-final by 24 points, to concede six goals, that's not good enough.'
"But there was nothing made of it, the chairman of our county board never once challenged the manager to come up with answers – all the blame fell on the players."
Which brings us to Tuesday night's board meeting, the vote for McCarthy: "Don't talk to me," O'Brien replies. "When the first vote (of confidence) was taken (last December), Glenroe voted against Justin – there are two of us involved from the club, myself and Stephen Walsh, who was one of those who walked away after the way we were cut.
"Four hammerings later in the league, things gone from bad to worse, and the club voted for Justin – I'm still trying to get my head around that. I'm not bitter about it, this is still my club and a lot of very good people in it, but how could they do that to Stephen Walsh and myself? Didn't they know that by voting for Justin on Tuesday they were saying they agreed with what he had done?
"Then again, I know a few of those who voted for Justin in the club and put it this way – they won't be on The Sunday Game as hurling analysts any time soon. When your own club won't support you, though, it's hard to see why any other club should. I had some great times with the hurlers and the footballers, don't regret a minute of it, but it's a pity it ends like this."
This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Friday, March 26, 2010
It's sad to read a story like that.
A man that lived and breatherd hurling, tee total etc.
No going back for saddened players
By Diarmuid O'Flynn
Friday, March 26, 2010
AT the conclusion of Tuesday night's vote of the Limerick County Board which confirmed Justin McCarthy as manager of the senior hurling team for the remainder of this season at least, chairman Liam Lenihan made a heartfelt appeal that all would accept the decision, and that the players now at loggerheads with the management would return to the fold.
That invitation by the board, however, has so far been extended only towards those who walked away from the panel, the 12 who were cut last October still excluded.
1) Do you accept that it's all over?
2) Will you consider returning to the panel now?
All 24 responded. There was just one 'No comment'; most replies were short if not sweet, some shorter than others; many, however, were more revealing, told of the demons being suffered as players make a decision they never thought they'd have to face.
ON THE FENCE:
1) I'd prefer not to comment on my own position at this point.
SHORTEST ANSWERS:
2, 3 & 4) Yes and No (three players).
5) Probably yes; definitely no.
6) As it stands for this year, yes; no.
7) Must be the end, won't be going back now.
8) 'Tis the end, and I won't be back.
9) Yes; no, not a living chance in hell.
LESS SHORT ANSWERS:
10) It's the end of Limerick hurling for me.
11) Yes this is the end, as far as I'm concerned, and as long as Justin is there I will not be back.
12) The clubs have spoken and it's final; secondly, I'm not going to hurl under the current management team.
13) Yes, the show is over for this year, and no, am not returning – gutted.
14) End of year for Limerick hurling for 2010; will not be playing inter-county hurling this year.
15) Yes I think it's finished for the year, and no I won't be available for selection under the current management.
LESS SHORT AGAIN:
16) Yes, it's over; whether or not I go back is not up to me as I was dropped from the panel originally, but if was asked back I wouldn't go, it's just not a professional enough setup for inter-county hurling.
17) Yes this is the end, but in my opinion it's also the end of Limerick hurling. A disaster – Division 2 hurling and people are content? Can't believe the outcome. Won't go back under any circumstances – a joke.
18) It's the end for me anyway, I'm going to concentrate on my club hurling. I never had any problem with Justin.
19) Ya, this is the end for me anyway, I won't be going back. If I met anyone from the county board today I wouldn't be responsible for myself.
MORE ELABORATE:
20) It's the end of it for now, yes, the year is a write-off at this stage and the decision has to be respected. I can't go back as I was dropped in the first place, so the decision isn't mine. I doubt I'll get a phonecall but if I did, I'd have no hesitation in telling Justin to shove it.
21) At this stage I just want to let the thing off. Hurling for Limerick has been my life and is my heart; what's gone on has been heart-breaking. I don't know where I, as a hurler, am going for the rest of my career, and more importantly, I don't know where we as a county are headed. Time to just can the publicity and let what's going to happen develop.
22) Very disappointed but I don't see what else can be done. We have all given our lives to hurling since a young age and to see it turn out like this against us is very disappointing; will I play while Justin is still in charge? Not after the way he treated us. At the end of the day we were 24 Limerick men and we want only what's best for Limerick hurling – nothing else.
23) I was one of the 12 originally cut from the panel in October, for whatever reason I still don't know, so don't think I would have much choice to go back or not; if asked, I wouldn't go anyway. The whole thing is a farce and a disgrace and I don't think it's the end of it yet. A sad day for Limerick hurling.
24) It is the end, and no way would I ever play under him again. Anyway the 12 who were dropped don't have a choice, but already they are back pressurising the lads that walked. [Tuesday] night was simple – 'We'll show them players, sure they got hammered by Tipperary! We beat player power!'. Absolute f***ing joke. We don't deserve success in this county – a political battle was won, hurling is F***ED.
This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Friday, March 26, 2010
24) It is the end, and no way would I ever play under him again. Anyway the 12 who were dropped don't have a choice, but already they are back pressurising the lads that walked. [Tuesday] night was simple – 'We'll show them players, sure they got hammered by Tipperary! We beat player power!'. Absolute f***ing joke. We don't deserve success in this county – a political battle was won, hurling is F***ED.
Quite a statement to say that hurling is finshed or as good as finished in Limerick. Why does it have to be so ?.
Hurling isn't finished in Limerick but it is under serious pressure and it is hard to see any change in that for the foreseeable future.
Quote from: orangeman on March 26, 2010, 03:45:44 PM
It's sad to read a story like that.
A man that lived and breatherd hurling, tee total etc.
+1
Very good article and he speaks very clearly and eloquently and gets his point across very well.
Does anyone have any links to Justin's original claims re indiscipline and lack of commitment etc??
Quote from: Zulu on March 25, 2010, 04:55:04 PM
QuoteI'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.
It isn't a typo and it appears it is only you who is out of the loop, everyone else knows what's going on.
So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.
As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.
Quote from: dowling on March 27, 2010, 12:19:38 PM
So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.
As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.
Doesn't stop you speculating widly on the motivation of this player to tell his side of the story though...
We never lost a championship match because of drinking, we lost because we weren't good enough on the day.
Quote from: orangeman on March 27, 2010, 01:49:27 PM
We never lost a championship match because of drinking, we lost because we weren't good enough on the day.
Fair play to ye fella.
The art of copying & pasting will never be dead while you're around.
We would all have missed that line the first time round if it were'nt for you.
Balance.
Well there ye go Uladh. Players weren't good enough on the day but Mike feels the manager should shoulder the blame and be hauled before the county board who should also take the blame.
As for speculating, well I'm abreast enough to do so and while none of us are always right surely there is reason to put a question mark over the presentation of how this interview came about and it's content.
Is this dispute over? I very much doubt it and I would speculate people from the 'players' side, whether it be players themselves or ones in the GPA, are formulating something and don't see this dispute as over.
Would ye not be up for a wee bit of speculation yourself Uladh?
Quote from: dowling on March 27, 2010, 12:19:38 PM
Quote from: Zulu on March 25, 2010, 04:55:04 PM
QuoteI'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.
It isn't a typo and it appears it is only you who is out of the loop, everyone else knows what's going on.
So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.
As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.
..Why is it you believe that no one has a mind of their own. I mean do you intentionally insult people all the time out of assumptions or do you genuinely not know you're doing it at this stage.
Because in your mind, no players can decide for themselves, but the more influential ones make their minds up for them and they are of course instructed by and controlled by the all watching GPA, I mean you don't think that Mike O Brien, at the age of 32, has no mind of his own? That he's influenced and told what to do by a few lads?
So you know, he can't be just doing what he says to be doing. Not a chance, because apparently, he's not genuine, it's all just curropt, because he's a great one to "pull at the heartstings" PR this, PR that.
These can't be genuine players, and of course the GPA are involved and the poor old manager is totally a victim and right in everything he does, having done nothing wrong.
If it was one player, two, five..it'd be something, but all of them. You have ideas that there are two or three people influencing the whole lot. And it's based on just your mind alone, despite overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.
If questions need to be asked about Justin, that are
relevant, than they need to be asked, but no it's just like poor old Ger Mac, the media, and you, and Gerald McCarthy himself, had no problem ripping into the players personal life, but when it was him..If the manager has done something wrong, out of line, they should be pulled for it.It's not all a case of big bad mean players and player power.
And I don't know what kind of club your from lad, but in many cases, clubs have this cycle, it's where everyone gives back in what they got out of it. It's how it's supposed to work.
You're convinced that IC players are these elitist type, who do nothing, and give nothing back. They do though, and it is the case in many clubs. They make sacrifices,
everyone does, and you're not in a place to judge who gives more and who does more, just because you're biased, and by the sound of it, very resentful. Because in your view everyone gives more and does more and sacrifices more than the players, who sound like they have a lovely easy life in your world.
And yes Justin has given a lot, and sacrificed a lot in his day, just because he has and he's been involved a long time, doesn't mean you get the right to condem everyone else.
Yet you seem to think your in a position to judge and condem those players, who you think don't give enough compared to everyone else. I mean what gives you the right? It sounds like some bitter resentful stuff to me..
Now I'm not saying I agree or diasgree with the players, or Justin, but the way you feel you are able to and feel you've the right to go in and so heavily criticise and condem the players the way you do, just because you feel that they don't give enough. When you have, in reailty no idea what they do, (and basing it on your club is a joke.) You're completely out of line.
I mean there is one side with you, one that is totally and completley right and the other that is wrong. There's no line in between, when really that's where it should be
But hey, at least you've shown consistancy. A few of the others..and I'm sure they know who they are have been shown to be complete and total hypocrites.
Quote from: Reillers on March 27, 2010, 05:24:58 PM
Quote from: dowling on March 27, 2010, 12:19:38 PM
Quote from: Zulu on March 25, 2010, 04:55:04 PM
QuoteI'm presuming that coma was a 'typo' Zulu. Unless you can add something some of us don't know.
It isn't a typo and it appears it is only you who is out of the loop, everyone else knows what's going on.
So I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.
As for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA. Great credentials for someone to tug at the heartstrings, a hardworking farmer, making sacrifices, passionate and a teetotaler. Some cynics might think that would have been a good PR move thought up somewhere and maybe not as spontaneous as presented to us.
And good point Heffo. While I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
As for 30 students sitting an exam and them all failing, maybe the students have expectations above themselves and are doing an exam that is a little too advanced for them.
What's that about a silk purse. I don't mean that in an insulting way but there needs to be a bit of realism. Is Mike OBrien saying a different manager would have lead Limerick to victory over Tipp? Is he saying the players were blameless?
As for the sacrifice bit. Always gets to me. I belong to a fairly successful club where players make great sacrifices to play. But there's more people, ones who look after kids and some committee members who make more sacrifices and put in more hours. And I've no doubt there are ones outside the players in Limerick who are likewise. I might even be inclined to believe Justin has made a few sacrifices in his day.
..Why is it you believe that no one has a mind of their own. I mean do you intentionally insult people all the time out of assumptions or do you genuinely not know you're doing it at this stage.
Because in your mind, no players can decide for themselves, but the more influential ones make their minds up for them and they are of course instructed by and controlled by the all watching GPA, I mean you don't think that Mike O Brien, at the age of 32, has no mind of his own? That he's influenced and told what to do by a few lads?
So you know, he can't be just doing what he says to be doing. Not a chance, because apparently, he's not genuine, it's all just curropt, because he's a great one to "pull at the heartstings" PR this, PR that.
These can't be genuine players, and of course the GPA are involved and the poor old manager is totally a victim and right in everything he does, having done nothing wrong.
If it was one player, two, five..it'd be something, but all of them. You have ideas that there are two or three people influencing the whole lot. And it's based on just your mind alone, despite overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.
If questions need to be asked about Justin, that are relevant, than they need to be asked, but no it's just like poor old Ger Mac, the media, and you, and Gerald McCarthy himself, had no problem ripping into the players personal life, but when it was him..If the manager has done something wrong, out of line, they should be pulled for it.It's not all a case of big bad mean players and player power.
And I don't know what kind of club your from lad, but in many cases, clubs have this cycle, it's where everyone gives back in what they got out of it. It's how it's supposed to work.
You're convinced that IC players are these elitist type, who do nothing, and give nothing back. They do though, and it is the case in many clubs. They make sacrifices, everyone does, and you're not in a place to judge who gives more and who does more, just because you're biased, and by the sound of it, very resentful. Because in your view everyone gives more and does more and sacrifices more than the players, who sound like they have a lovely easy life in your world.
And yes Justin has given a lot, and sacrificed a lot in his day, just because he has and he's been involved a long time, doesn't mean you get the right to condem everyone else.
Yet you seem to think your in a position to judge and condem those players, who you think don't give enough compared to everyone else. I mean what gives you the right? It sounds like some bitter resentful stuff to me..
Now I'm not saying I agree or diasgree with the players, or Justin, but the way you feel you are able to and feel you've the right to go in and so heavily criticise and condem the players the way you do, just because you feel that they don't give enough. When you have, in reailty no idea what they do, (and basing it on your club is a joke.) You're completely out of line.
I mean there is one side with you, one that is totally and completley right and the other that is wrong. There's no line in between, when really that's where it should be
But hey, at least you've shown consistancy. A few of the others..and I'm sure they know who they are have been shown to be complete and total hypocrites.
Shut up Reillers.
QuoteSo I'm out of the loop on the details of expenses. The details you so well listed in a previous post. Oh that's right you didn't. It was just the odd throw away remark and whoever introduced this element to the dispute probably got what they hoped for. Question Justin on a personal level just as happened to Ger McCarthy and look at the end result there.
What are you on about man? You and a number of others questioned whether the Cork hurlers were motivated by financial gain, yet when it is asked of a manager (and we all know managers don't get paid, don't we?) you climb on that high horse of yours. You then have the cheek to ask for proof of any payments to Justin, how the hell do you expect me to provide that? I've disagreed with the likes of heffo, Indiana, skull1 and OM on these issues but none of them doubt Justin isn't in Limerick for the good of his health, not you though because you lack all balance in these debates.
QuoteAs for Mike OBrien's interview. He's such a shy man he woke up one morning and decided to go to the press. There's no way he was encouraged to do so after a players' meeting or contact with the GPA.
Ah yes the all powerful CIA, I mean GPA, pulling the strings to curry public favour. Sure all these players are only clueless muppets who couldn't care less about hurling and are simply looking for a professional GAA. And why wouldn't Mike O'Brien want a professional GAA at 32 years of age and him being an average IC hurler he can look forward to reaping the benefits a professional GAA will bring. Yep, makes perfect sense to me.
Unlike the Cork players, I've little sympathy for the Limerick players and I wouldn't agree with everything Mike has said but it is now clear that you don't look at these issues objectively and are suffering from some weird paranoid delusions about the GPA and a professional GAA.
QuoteWhile I've been unable to stay abreast of all that has gone on as much as I might like I was under the impression that accusations of Justin's indiscipline charge were a later introduction to the dispute, connected to only a few players, and the discontent was initally over 'not lifting the phone' to the dropped players. Yet Mike's interview, whether intended or not, gives the impression both went hand in hand.
Staying abreast is it? You know as much about what has gone on as you do about heart surgery. Justin dropped 12 players (as his is right) but then gave an interview a few days later implying the reasons they were dropped was due to indiscipline, he didn't make it clear who he was referring to so they were all tarred with the same brush. The other players walkied away because of this but also because they weren't happy with Justins management anyway. This is the second squad in 2 years to want Justin out, but you still don't think he has any questions to answer and you might have noticed that Waterford got to an AI the very year the got rid of him. Considering how much stock you put into Cork's league results when Gerald carried on with the new panel you must feel Waterford were right to get rid of Justin and he was indeed holding them back, would that be right?
I know im getting into this late,
its common decency for an IC manager to contact any players he is leaving out of the previous years panel at the start of the next year,all he has to say is,"im moving in a different direction, and you're not in my plans" "good luck for the future" etc etc
To then come out and tar them all with the same brush,and say they were dropped due to indiscipline was disgraceful.
I sympathise with the 24 Limerick players,
i know id have walked if 12 of my teammates who i have been through many battles with,were discarded with like that.
Zulu and Reillers, you both need to read more closely what is written before getting on your high horse and firing accusations.
I never insulted Mike Obrien and I'm quite sure he can think for himself. In fact he seems like a fairly sound fella. Just the sort you would want representing you in a dispute.
We all know the 'dropped and walk away' players have had meetings and it was reported they were training. At the beginning of the dispute the impression given however was that this wasn't going to be another Cork situation and that there wouldn't be a dispute, it was to be a case of carry on without us. That hasn't panned out however and there have been different statements and interviews. So there has to be some sort of coordination of what's being said. In that context it's very credible to question whether this latest interview fits in to all that.
In addition to that are we to also believe that the, now officially recognised players' body, the GPA are not or have not been in contact with those players mentioned?
Uladh describes my contribution as 'speculation'. And indeed that's what it is and what most of us contribute. But it's not wild speculation. It's firmly grounded.
If we go back to the Cork dispute that episode took a similar course. Players weren't on strike, they just weren't going to play. Then we had the a gradual increase in the statements and appearances by the strikers who obviously concluded they had to be proactive to win this dispute. I'd say all those Cork boys were well able to think for themselves but it would be a blind man that said everything they did wasn't coordinated and well thought out from a PR perspective. Their united interview, all wearing the same gear, who spoke and when. And of course they alluded to their coordination of everything themselves by underling their 'unity'.
This present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
One of the strengths of this Limerick group has to be to remain united and act collectively just as happened in Cork and while there may be the odd interview or utterance from an individual in a personal capacity the chances are that, as a group, they will be trying to avoid that so that all are seen to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
As for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof by implying his refusal to vacate the manager's job is based on this. Someone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility. It has only entered the debate on these pages recently so you have to wonder how it has become a factor. And sure didn't Ger face a similar attack on his integrity by implying his refusal to leave was based on his 'business connections' with the county board even though he supported the strikers the previous year and the accusations flew in the face of reality?
As for the sacrifice issue Reillers I'm pointing out there's many more than county players who make sacrifices and greater ones. It shouldn't be an area claimed by anyone to strengthen an argument. Indeed if you read what I wrote I compliment the players for the sacrifices they make. But don't let what I write get in the way of a personal attack.
Perhaps if you two would calm down and look at things more logically and read what is written or questions which are posed you could both have a rational debate and be a little less personal with your comments.
You're gonna have to change your tune with the blaming the gpa for everything this time round dowling... they're offical players body now so they will be expected to get involved.
You contribute nothing to these debates by the way, except to dissuade people from reading. same as reillers. when you have to twist every single point to be endorsing your contentions and cannot accept there are 2 sides to things, error on all sides etc. then noone can take you seriously
You're dead right Aghdavoyle, dowling is a one trick pony with paranoid delusions and little knowledge of what is going on.
QuoteZulu and Reillers, you both need to read more closely what is written before getting on your high horse and firing accusations.
Pot...kettle...black, you've spent most of your time on this board perched on your high horse.
QuoteAs for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof by implying his refusal to vacate the manager's job is based on this. Someone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility. It has only entered the debate on these pages recently so you have to wonder how it has become a factor.
I introduced this to highlighted the hypocrisy of the likes of you who readily questioned the motivations of the Cork hurlers but haven't when we know Justin is actually getting money directly for his managerial role. But then again when you lack any balance and are a delusional doom merchant, I shouldn't be surprised.
QuoteThis present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
Utter nonsense, the players have rarely been in the media, compared to the Cork players and there isn't a recurring public debate between players and management. Once again you highlight how little you know and how unbalanced your view of this issue is, which can be summed up by players bad, managers good, GPA all powerful evil force. I wonder why you never contribute to this board except when there is a player dispute, everyone else has interests beyond these but not you, which i think explains your thought process.
Quote from: dowling on March 28, 2010, 02:34:11 PM
Zulu and Reillers, you both need to read more closely what is written before getting on your high horse and firing accusations.
I never insulted Mike Obrien and I'm quite sure he can think for himself. In fact he seems like a fairly sound fella. Just the sort you would want representing you in a dispute.
We all know the 'dropped and walk away' players have had meetings and it was reported they were training. At the beginning of the dispute the impression given however was that this wasn't going to be another Cork situation and that there wouldn't be a dispute, it was to be a case of carry on without us. That hasn't panned out however and there have been different statements and interviews. So there has to be some sort of coordination of what's being said. In that context it's very credible to question whether this latest interview fits in to all that.
In addition to that are we to also believe that the, now officially recognised players' body, the GPA are not or have not been in contact with those players mentioned?
Uladh describes my contribution as 'speculation'. And indeed that's what it is and what most of us contribute. But it's not wild speculation. It's firmly grounded.
If we go back to the Cork dispute that episode took a similar course. Players weren't on strike, they just weren't going to play. Then we had the a gradual increase in the statements and appearances by the strikers who obviously concluded they had to be proactive to win this dispute. I'd say all those Cork boys were well able to think for themselves but it would be a blind man that said everything they did wasn't coordinated and well thought out from a PR perspective. Their united interview, all wearing the same gear, who spoke and when. And of course they alluded to their coordination of everything themselves by underling their 'unity'.
This present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
One of the strengths of this Limerick group has to be to remain united and act collectively just as happened in Cork and while there may be the odd interview or utterance from an individual in a personal capacity the chances are that, as a group, they will be trying to avoid that so that all are seen to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
As for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof by implying his refusal to vacate the manager's job is based on this. Someone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility. It has only entered the debate on these pages recently so you have to wonder how it has become a factor. And sure didn't Ger face a similar attack on his integrity by implying his refusal to leave was based on his 'business connections' with the county board even though he supported the strikers the previous year and the accusations flew in the face of reality?
As for the sacrifice issue Reillers I'm pointing out there's many more than county players who make sacrifices and greater ones. It shouldn't be an area claimed by anyone to strengthen an argument. Indeed if you read what I wrote I compliment the players for the sacrifices they make. But don't let what I write get in the way of a personal attack.
Perhaps if you two would calm down and look at things more logically and read what is written or questions which are posed you could both have a rational debate and be a little less personal with your comments.
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on March 28, 2010, 03:34:26 PM
You're gonna have to change your tune with the blaming the gpa for everything this time round dowling... they're offical players body now so they will be expected to get involved.
You contribute nothing to these debates by the way, except to dissuade people from reading. same as reillers. when you have to twist every single point to be endorsing your contentions and cannot accept there are 2 sides to things, error on all sides etc. then noone can take you seriously
Thanks for backing up my assertion of GPA involvement. I'm not blaming the GPA on everything however. Another one with difficulty reading.
I certainly accept there are two sides to everything but I don't necessarily agree with one side's view of resolution. For the 'exiled' players there has only been one means of resolution. Like the Cork strikers they have refused to enter any talks, and see no resolution other that getting rid of the management. That's a case of players trying to flex their power and using different means at their disposal which are distasteful and out of place. And I'm against that.
And even though you accuse me of twisting things others here have recognised my position as consistent.
If you want to try and insult feel free, it's no big deal to me but as I've stated previously a reflection on you.
Quote from: Zulu on March 28, 2010, 06:32:31 PM
You're dead right Aghdavoyle, dowling is a one trick pony with paranoid delusions and little knowledge of what is going on.
QuoteZulu and Reillers, you both need to read more closely what is written before getting on your high horse and firing accusations.
Pot...kettle...black, you've spent most of your time on this board perched on your high horse.
QuoteAs for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof by implying his refusal to vacate the manager's job is based on this. Someone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility. It has only entered the debate on these pages recently so you have to wonder how it has become a factor.
I introduced this to highlighted the hypocrisy of the likes of you who readily questioned the motivations of the Cork hurlers but haven't when we know Justin is actually getting money directly for his managerial role. But then again when you lack any balance and are a delusional doom merchant, I shouldn't be surprised.
QuoteThis present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
Utter nonsense, the players have rarely been in the media, compared to the Cork players and there isn't a recurring public debate between players and management. Once again you highlight how little you know and how unbalanced your view of this issue is, which can be summed up by players bad, managers good, GPA all powerful evil force. I wonder why you never contribute to this board except when there is a player dispute, everyone else has interests beyond these but not you, which i think explains your thought process.
Zulu I know the Cork dispute ran into an immense amount of pages on this board but I never once accused the Cork strikers of being motivated by personal financial gain. Perhaps we can put that to bed now.
As for Justin's 'expenses', if all managers get paid why have you introduced this as an element in the dispute? And what exactly is the relevance of it in the context that all managers get paid?
As for the last bit of your post;
"This present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start." Me
"Utter nonsense, the players have rarely been in the media, compared to the Cork players and there isn't a recurring public debate between players and management. Once again you highlight how little you know and how unbalanced your view of this issue is, which can be summed up by players bad, managers good, GPA all powerful evil force. I wonder why you never contribute to this board except when there is a player dispute, everyone else has interests beyond these but not you, which i think explains your thought process." You
Well...Make no mistake this dispute is just as messy as the Cork one with accusations flying and media interventions from both sides
Quote from: dowling on March 28, 2010, 07:02:02 PM
Quote from: Zulu on March 28, 2010, 06:32:31 PM
You're dead right Aghdavoyle, dowling is a one trick pony with paranoid delusions and little knowledge of what is going on.
QuoteZulu and Reillers, you both need to read more closely what is written before getting on your high horse and firing accusations.
Pot...kettle...black, you've spent most of your time on this board perched on your high horse.
QuoteAs for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof by implying his refusal to vacate the manager's job is based on this. Someone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility. It has only entered the debate on these pages recently so you have to wonder how it has become a factor.
I introduced this to highlighted the hypocrisy of the likes of you who readily questioned the motivations of the Cork hurlers but haven't when we know Justin is actually getting money directly for his managerial role. But then again when you lack any balance and are a delusional doom merchant, I shouldn't be surprised.
QuoteThis present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
Utter nonsense, the players have rarely been in the media, compared to the Cork players and there isn't a recurring public debate between players and management. Once again you highlight how little you know and how unbalanced your view of this issue is, which can be summed up by players bad, managers good, GPA all powerful evil force. I wonder why you never contribute to this board except when there is a player dispute, everyone else has interests beyond these but not you, which i think explains your thought process.
Zulu I know the Cork dispute ran into an immense amount of pages on this board but I never once accused the Cork strikers of being motivated by personal financial gain. Perhaps we can put that to bed now.
As for Justin's 'expenses', if all managers get paid why have you introduced this as an element in the dispute? And what exactly is the relevance of it in the context that all managers get paid?
As for the last bit of your post;
"This present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start." Me
"Utter nonsense, the players have rarely been in the media, compared to the Cork players and there isn't a recurring public debate between players and management. Once again you highlight how little you know and how unbalanced your view of this issue is, which can be summed up by players bad, managers good, GPA all powerful evil force. I wonder why you never contribute to this board except when there is a player dispute, everyone else has interests beyond these but not you, which i think explains your thought process." You
Well...Make no mistake this dispute is just as messy as the Cork one with accusations flying and media interventions from both sides
Oh by the way Zulu that last bit there was posted by you on page 14.
You mightn't like it but it sort of backs my argument, don't you think?
Seems we're both abreast of things.
QuoteZulu I know the Cork dispute ran into an immense amount of pages on this board but I never once accused the Cork strikers of being motivated by personal financial gain. Perhaps we can put that to bed now.
I'm certainly not going to go through that thread looking for a quote to prove you did but I'm fairly sure you did and if you didn't say it yourself you never questioned the validity of those who did. So you either said it yourself or you implied support for that accusation by your silence.
QuoteAs for Justin's 'expenses', if all managers get paid why have you introduced this as an element in the dispute? And what exactly is the relevance of it in the context that all managers get paid?
Jesus man, you accuse others of being unable to read. I've explained why I brought it up, in my last post in fact.
QuoteOh by the way Zulu that last bit there was posted by you on page 14.
You mightn't like it but it sort of backs my argument, don't you think?[/quote
No it doesn't, this dispute is just as messy as the Cork one at the local level but there isn't the same dynamics going on here. There was 12 players dropped, 12 more dropped themselves and one of them has gone back but there isn't the same media to and fro and the players aren't organised like the Cork players were. In fact i was talking to a Limerick footballer recently and he told me the players weren't doing anything as a group and those on the football panel won't be going back.
QuoteI'm not blaming the GPA on everything however.
Eh, yes you are. you even tried to bring the GPA into the Armagh managerial merry-go-round earlier on in the year.
Why can't you accept that these players aren't happy with Justin, won't play for him but are letting those who do want to play get on with it and leave it at that?
Quote from: dowling on March 28, 2010, 07:02:02 PM
Quote from: Zulu on March 28, 2010, 06:32:31 PM
You're dead right Aghdavoyle, dowling is a one trick pony with paranoid delusions and little knowledge of what is going on.
QuoteZulu and Reillers, you both need to read more closely what is written before getting on your high horse and firing accusations.
Pot...kettle...black, you've spent most of your time on this board perched on your high horse.
QuoteAs for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof by implying his refusal to vacate the manager's job is based on this. Someone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility. It has only entered the debate on these pages recently so you have to wonder how it has become a factor.
I introduced this to highlighted the hypocrisy of the likes of you who readily questioned the motivations of the Cork hurlers but haven't when we know Justin is actually getting money directly for his managerial role. But then again when you lack any balance and are a delusional doom merchant, I shouldn't be surprised.
QuoteThis present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
Utter nonsense, the players have rarely been in the media, compared to the Cork players and there isn't a recurring public debate between players and management. Once again you highlight how little you know and how unbalanced your view of this issue is, which can be summed up by players bad, managers good, GPA all powerful evil force. I wonder why you never contribute to this board except when there is a player dispute, everyone else has interests beyond these but not you, which i think explains your thought process.
Zulu I know the Cork dispute ran into an immense amount of pages on this board but I never once accused the Cork strikers of being motivated by personal financial gain. Perhaps we can put that to bed now.
As for Justin's 'expenses', if all managers get paid why have you introduced this as an element in the dispute? And what exactly is the relevance of it in the context that all managers get paid?
As for the last bit of your post;
"This present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start." Me
"Utter nonsense, the players have rarely been in the media, compared to the Cork players and there isn't a recurring public debate between players and management. Once again you highlight how little you know and how unbalanced your view of this issue is, which can be summed up by players bad, managers good, GPA all powerful evil force. I wonder why you never contribute to this board except when there is a player dispute, everyone else has interests beyond these but not you, which i think explains your thought process." You
Well...Make no mistake this dispute is just as messy as the Cork one with accusations flying and media interventions from both sides
I remember Sean Og getting a bit of grief on here, I'm sure if we looked hard enough we could find many personal attacks on players by yourself and other posters. But sure that's grand..once it's not personal attacks on the manager. Why because with you there is only one side of a story.
You have no problem at all making presumptions and giving grief and attacking players personally, but it's out of line when someone has a go at the other side, even when it is something that might need to be looked at or is relevant.
Sunday Sport on now with a piece on the whole Limerick issue.
Certainly seems that clubs voted against player power last week.
So Zulu and Reillers, neither of you can show anything I posted to back up accusations of personal attacks, aren't going to bother trying, assume I did but even if I didn't I'm guilty because I didn't challange others. To be honest I don't know how to view that. Are you covering all bases, taking liberties or a bit of both? To say you're both stretching your credibility would be putting it mildly.
Catch yourselves on. :D
QuoteI never insulted Mike Obrien and I'm quite sure he can think for himself. In fact he seems like a fairly sound fella. Just the sort you would want representing you in a dispute.
You implied that someone else is pulling his strings. It's as clear as day from your point. Which clearly shows no respect for him. You can't compliment him one minute and call him a puppet the next.
QuoteWe all know the 'dropped and walk away' players have had meetings and it was reported they were training.
..So..I think you'll find both sides have meetings..it's how they function.
QuoteAt the beginning of the dispute the impression given however was that this wasn't going to be another Cork situation and that there wouldn't be a dispute, it was to be a case of carry on without us. That hasn't panned out however and there have been different statements and interviews.So there has to be some sort of coordination of what's being said. In that context it's very credible to question whether this latest interview fits in to all that.
Limerick have kept playing without out, and obviously, well for some, there's coordination of what's being said, just like on the other side. But the interview is just that an interview from a very well respected player, giving his OWN opinion, not some script to read out, written by a member of the GPA.
QuoteIn addition to that are we to also believe that the, now officially recognised players' body, the GPA are not or have not been in contact with those players mentioned?
The GPA has NOTHING to do with this dispute, why you continue to drag them into this, and every other dispute, it's ridiculous..
QuoteUladh describes my contribution as 'speculation'. And indeed that's what it is and what most of us contribute. But it's not wild speculation. It's firmly grounded.
It is speculation, always is, personal attacks and insults on players with nothing more than what you think is going on..
QuoteIf we go back to the Cork dispute that episode took a similar course. Players weren't on strike, they just weren't going to play. Then we had the a gradual increase in the statements and appearances by the strikers who obviously concluded they had to be proactive to win this dispute.
So you just expected them to sit there and get hammered by the press and Gerald. They had to be proactive to stop getting burried by attacks from Gerald in the media who made statement and statement after statement..including personal attacks on players.
QuoteI'd say all those Cork boys were well able to think for themselves but it would be a blind man that said everything they did wasn't coordinated and well thought out from a PR perspective.
That's not what you thought back then, back then it was all Donal Og's fault.
Of course they coordinated, it's a team, a group of peoples opinions/ And EVERYONE, both sides, tried to make themselves clear in their stance and fight for what they believed were right.
QuoteTheir united interview, all wearing the same gear, who spoke and when. And of course they alluded to their coordination of everything themselves by underling their 'unity'.
And there's something wrong with acting as a team, everyone having a say in what's going on. The way you talk about "unity" I man honest to God by the sound of ya, you think you'd never been on a team before.
QuoteThis present dispute has taken a very similar course and which I've predicated from the start.
One of the strengths of this Limerick group has to be to remain united and act collectively just as happened in Cork and while there may be the odd interview or utterance from an individual in a personal capacity the chances are that, as a group, they will be trying to avoid that so that all are seen to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
Maybe..just maybe..they are, just like in the Cork dispute, singing off from the same hymn sheet.
When I hear the talk of you, it honestly sounds like you were never on a team..people think for themselves, there are not all mighty powers behind this like..
QuoteAs for Justin's expenses and how relative this is. I doubt there would be too many posters who could come on here and give any details. But you both seem to think it's acceptable to question this man's integrity without any proof
You'd no problem questioning the integrity of the players, based purely on your own opinion, with no proof what so ever or evidence, or anything really to back you up, but you go ahead and attack players anyway..
QuoteSomeone somewhere started this, most probably to muddy the water of the dispute and in the hope others would parrot it to give it credibility.
Not saying it's true..but..smoke..fire..
QuoteAs for the sacrifice issue Reillers I'm pointing out there's many more than county players who make sacrifices and greater ones
More presumptions..having a go at them, with nothing ot back it up. They don't make as much sacrifice (with no proof) in your mind so you get to have a go at them and they can't stand on one foot when put next to Justin.
QuoteIt shouldn't be an area claimed by anyone to strengthen an argument.
..eh..
QuoteIndeed if you read what I wrote I compliment the players for the sacrifices they make. But don't let what I write get in the way of a personal attack.
Ya, sure they do sacrifice a bit, not as much as anyone else, but a bit..is basically what you said, and said again in this post.
QuotePerhaps if you two would calm down and look at things more logically and read what is written or questions which are posed you could both have a rational debate and be a little less personal with your comments.
Pot, kettle, black..You twist every fact and every thing anyone says to suit one side of the story, to a ridiculous level. You refuse to debate anything, you'll attack players and posters on a personal level, but sure the manager doesn't deserve the same treatement..and you can't even see what you're doing.
You sound incredibly bitter and resentful, one of the few who resents IC players for their success I imagine. There are a few in each club.
Reillers, first off that's hard to read!
Here's the thing though. Time to put up or shut up.
Put up one post where I criticised any Cork striker on a personal level.
That's easier to read.
But still twisting what I say and personal.
Quote from: dowling on March 28, 2010, 11:42:19 PM
Reillers, first off that's hard to read!
Here's the thing though. Time to put up or shut up.
Put up one post where I criticised any Cork striker on a personal level.
You think I'm going to go through 503 pages to look for posts where you have go at players all the time, players like Sean Og, Donal Og etc. Good one..
And you say you haven't, which I don't believe, but you still think it's fine for everyone, including Gerald Mac to rip into the players, attacking them personally, but if you think a player has done it or a media outlet has done it then there's hell to pay..
Quote from: Reillers on March 29, 2010, 12:22:09 PM
Quote from: dowling on March 28, 2010, 11:42:19 PM
Reillers, first off that's hard to read!
Here's the thing though. Time to put up or shut up.
Put up one post where I criticised any Cork striker on a personal level.
You think I'm going to go through 503 pages to look for posts where you have go at players all the time, players like Sean Og, Donal Og etc. Good one..
And you say you haven't, which I don't believe, but you still think it's fine for everyone, including Gerald Mac to rip into the players, attacking them personally, but if you think a player has done it or a media outlet has done it then there's hell to pay..
For the umpteenth time, the first shot of the last GPA/professional product models/occasional hurlers strike was fired clearly by the strikers when they fed Kieran Shannon a very detailed personal assasination on Ger Mac - Sunday Tribune October bank holiday weekend 2008 - if you have a source that says otherwise then please post it - otherwise shutup.
McCarthy fails to tempt any of the 11 exiled players back
http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/2010/03/29/mccarthy-fails-to-tempt-any-of-the-11-exiled-players-back/
Quote from: Reillers on March 29, 2010, 12:22:09 PM
Quote from: dowling on March 28, 2010, 11:42:19 PM
Reillers, first off that's hard to read!
Here's the thing though. Time to put up or shut up.
Put up one post where I criticised any Cork striker on a personal level.
You think I'm going to go through 503 pages to look for posts where you have go at players all the time, players like Sean Og, Donal Og etc. Good one..
And you say you haven't, which I don't believe, but you still think it's fine for everyone, including Gerald Mac to rip into the players, attacking them personally, but if you think a player has done it or a media outlet has done it then there's hell to pay..
That's exactly the point Reillers I don't expect you to do that as you've always been happy to level accusations without checking if they're true.
I thought Mark Foley on the Sunday Game came across as someone who sees the need to talk although being disappointed at Justin's dropping of players. If he was the players' rep I'd imagine there would be a chance of a resolution to all this. Beginning to have less and less time for Donal Ogrady though. And Justin had already been in touch with all the exiled players. It would appear that that hey have got themselves entrenched however. And of course this hasn't been the first attempt to get them back. They need to take a look at themselves and question whatever advice they're getting.
Quote from: dowling on March 29, 2010, 04:27:52 PM
I thought Mark Foley on the Sunday Game came across as someone who sees the need to talk although being disappointed at Justin's dropping of players. If he was the players' rep I'd imagine there would be a chance of a resolution to all this. Beginning to have less and less time for Donal Ogrady though. And Justin had already been in touch with all the exiled players. It would appear that that hey have got themselves entrenched however. And of course this hasn't been the first attempt to get them back. They need to take a look at themselves and question whatever advice they're getting.
Oh why now, because you don't agree with him. FFS.
I would think Donal O Grady knows a bit more than you do. "Justin had already been in touch with the exiled players." Says you. Others who are involved and know more than you say otherwise.
From the Limerick Leader Reillers FFS.
"Published Date:
29 March 2010
By Jerome O'Connell
GAA Correspondent
NOT one of the 2009 exiled Limerick hurlers has accepted a last-ditch invitation from Justin McCarthy to rejoin the inter-county panel.
McCarthy telephoned all of the exiled hurlers on Friday."
And
"McCarthy also made contact with the players who were dropped last October and while he discussed the latest saga with them he did not ask them to rejoin the panel."
FFS
Quote from: dowling on March 29, 2010, 05:46:59 PM
From the Limerick Leader Reillers FFS.
"Published Date:
29 March 2010
By Jerome O'Connell
GAA Correspondent
NOT one of the 2009 exiled Limerick hurlers has accepted a last-ditch invitation from Justin McCarthy to rejoin the inter-county panel.
McCarthy telephoned all of the exiled hurlers on Friday."
And
"McCarthy also made contact with the players who were dropped last October and while he discussed the latest saga with them he did not ask them to rejoin the panel."
FFS
But not the droped players.
No not the 'droped' players.
Put your glasses on FFS Reillers.
Quote from: dowling on March 29, 2010, 05:46:59 PM
From the Limerick Leader Reillers FFS.
"Published Date:
29 March 2010
By Jerome O'Connell
GAA Correspondent
NOT one of the 2009 exiled Limerick hurlers has accepted a last-ditch invitation from Justin McCarthy to rejoin the inter-county panel.
McCarthy telephoned all of the exiled hurlers on Friday."
And
"McCarthy also made contact with the players who were dropped last October and while he discussed the latest saga with them he did not ask them to rejoin the panel."
FFS
As for Donal OGrady sure isn't he a GPA sympathiser?
Quote from: dowling on March 29, 2010, 06:25:25 PM
As for Donal OGrady sure isn't he a GPA sympathiser?
..Why not just answer the question why you don't like such a GAA legend? One of the best managers in the game.
Quote from: dowling on March 29, 2010, 06:18:50 PM
No not the 'droped' players.
Put your glasses on FFS Reillers.
Quote from: dowling on March 29, 2010, 05:46:59 PM
From the Limerick Leader Reillers FFS.
"Published Date:
29 March 2010
By Jerome O'Connell
GAA Correspondent
NOT one of the 2009 exiled Limerick hurlers has accepted a last-ditch invitation from Justin McCarthy to rejoin the inter-county panel.
McCarthy telephoned all of the exiled hurlers on Friday."
And
"McCarthy also made contact with the players who were dropped last October and while he discussed the latest saga with them he did not ask them to rejoin the panel."
FFS
My point is that he didn't contact the players he dropped before he dropped them, with no explanation, and that's a main sore spot. To be treated like that..Then get the flack for not wanting to go back after being treated so badly.
Ah FFS!!!!!
QuoteSo Zulu and Reillers, neither of you can show anything I posted to back up accusations of personal attacks, aren't going to bother trying, assume I did but even if I didn't I'm guilty because I didn't challange others. To be honest I don't know how to view that.
I'm not going to go through 500+ pages to satisfy you but you and a number of other posters here are hypocrites in this regard.
Since you didn't answer my last question, I'll try again. What, exactly, is your problem this time? Most of the 2009 Limerick players are not making themselves available to Justin but are keeping their thoughts, largely, to themselves, there is a panel there and nobody is trying to prevent those lads play so where is the problem?
I know from living in Egypt that people living in Alexandria (the second city) have a persecution complex when it comes to talking to people from Cairo which is a bigger city. And people from Cairo and the rest of the country find them insufferable. And in India it's the same between Bombay and Delhi. But Reillers you really take the biscuit . You could only be from Cork.
Quote from: Reillers on March 29, 2010, 07:06:44 PM
Quote from: dowling on March 29, 2010, 06:37:49 PM
Ah FFS!!!!!
Typical..no response then.
I thought, "Ah FFS" was a typical response. Sure don't you use it all the time.
Quote from: Zulu on March 29, 2010, 06:54:08 PM
QuoteSo Zulu and Reillers, neither of you can show anything I posted to back up accusations of personal attacks, aren't going to bother trying, assume I did but even if I didn't I'm guilty because I didn't challange others. To be honest I don't know how to view that.
I'm not going to go through 500+ pages to satisfy you but you and a number of other posters here are hypocrites in this regard.
Well we'll give up on you trying to be credible in that respect then.[/b]
[quote
Since you didn't answer my last question, I'll try again. What, exactly, is your problem this time? Most of the 2009 Limerick players are not making themselves available to Justin but are keeping their thoughts, largely, to themselves, there is a panel there and nobody is trying to prevent those lads play so where is the problem?
[/quote]
No they're not and the jury's out, only out of kindness.
Tom Ryan will be dancing in the streets tonight.
Lomerick have tonight appointed a 3 man team to appoint a new Limerick hurling manager.
Does that mean they will be as good as Clare next year?
Can Justin be reappointed?
Quote from: dowling on July 13, 2010, 11:58:03 PM
Does that mean they will be as good as Clare next year?
Or maybe Cork?
Well Zulu we all know there are going to be boys continually coming through in Cork and the revamp seems to have brought them on again. How far however remains to be seen.
And anyway aren't they now playing and being more effective playing the way Ger was trying to get them to play and to which Denis Walsh referred to after the game. Too much short game and messing around and not enough direct hurling the first half but got the team to change for the second.
:D :D Fair dues to you dowling, their first Munster final appearance in a few years is down to the young lads and them playing the way Ger wanted them to play. Sure it has nothing to do with Denis Walsh or the continuing fine form of Donal Og, Sean Og, Ronan Curran, the O'Connors etc. You're consistent anyway I'll give you that.
Quote from: Zulu on July 14, 2010, 06:26:36 PM
:D :D Fair dues to you dowling, their first Munster final appearance in a few years is down to the young lads and them playing the way Ger wanted them to play. Sure it has nothing to do with Denis Walsh or the continuing fine form of Donal Og, Sean Og, Ronan Curran, the O'Connors etc. You're consistent anyway I'll give you that.
Did you hear what Denis Walsh said after the match Zulu? Now you might have me here but I thought it amounted to having the team play a different game in the second half and it sounded very like the way the strikers ridiculed Ger for. And every team is revamped with new additions of quality. You could maybe say it's essential for continual development.
So are you putting one victory over a poor Tipp performance down to those three players you named and using that victory as a yardstick? What do you expect from Cork this year Zulu?
dowling, I have been consistent in my position on Cork (or player power in general), if the players don't want the manger then he should go, simple as. We are now seeing the fruits of that logic in Cork and the madness of the opposite stance in Limerick. Gerald Mac wasn't the man to bring Cork forward but, IMO Cork are no longer capable of winning an AI and I wouldn't bet on them winning a Munster title either. I thought Waterford would win last week and I think they'll win the replay. I would rank Cork joint fourth in Ireland alongside Galway and behind Waterford, Tipp and Kilkenny. However, the O'Connor's, Donal Og, Sean Og, Gardiner, Kenny, Curran etc. are legends of the game and if you work with them then they will reward you with quality performances. Denis Walsh is doing that and he is getting the rewards, unfortunately for Cork that is no longer good enough to beat Kilkenny but all any squad can do is play to their potential. They are doing that under Walsh and weren't under Gerald, I don't see any great difference in Cork's style of play Walsh seems to want them to mix the long and short game while Gerald seemed to want to stamp out the short game all together which was a stupid thing to do.
Cork, by the way, were beaten in both the minor and U21 already this year which is a poor reflection on the structures in Cork and ominous for the immediate future of Cork hurling.
Yea you're consistent Zulu even though at times i imagine you might like to change your viewpoint. Definitely consistent in your denial though.
Fruits of that logic? Had Cork no good wins under Ger?
While some of us might have been left with a bad taste over the actions of some Cork players during the strike it's not difficult to recognise their hurling ability. Great players for Cork over several years and great playing a short game, running game or more direct hurling. But everything doesn't always work on any given day and any approach is of course relative to the collective players.
Cork scored six points in the first half playing their short passing game and 2-09 in the second with a more direct style which tells a story. Of course on another day it could be the other way around. Against Tipp their hurling was more direct also. Now Denis Walsh, and also Donal OGrady, made reference to the need for it. I presume there were strong words at half time. I would wonder if the players have been doing things their way for too long to find it easy to adapt. But it is ironic, regardless of the players you mention, that the fruits you talk about are coming from a style of play those players previously opposed. Or were they just exagerating what was wrong with Ger's management to mask their personal differences. I don't remember Ger saying anything about stamping out the short game, did you pick that up somewhere?
Very surprised at your last paragraph. Reillers could have written that for you. Did he?
QuoteDefinitely consistent in your denial though.
Of what?
QuoteFruits of that logic? Had Cork no good wins under Ger?
They didn't play in a Munster final under Ger, nor a league final I'm sure. Any team choc full of AI winners and All starts are bound to produce some decent performances.
QuoteBut it is ironic, regardless of the players you mention, that the fruits you talk about are coming from a style of play those players previously opposed
Good to see the head is firmly in the sand still, you can't knock teh performances of Donal Og et al. so now you've convinced yourself that they are successful because they have changed their style (which they haven't really). There were loads of short puck outs against Tipp for example.
QuoteI don't remember Ger saying anything about stamping out the short game, did you pick that up somewhere?
Eh? I don't mind a guy arguing an oppossing point of view but if you can't accept anything that doesn't fit in with your world view then it reflects poorly on you. Everyone knows that Gerald was all about changing the short style of game Cork were playing.
QuoteOr were they just exagerating what was wrong with Ger's management to mask their personal differences.
Doesn't matter now ans didn't matter then why the players feel out with Gerald, they did and he should have walked. And there is now ample proof of improved performances after he left. By the way it is also interesting that the 'grasssroots' man that follows the jersey not the player couldn't be bothered his arse to support the Limerick hurlers.
QuoteVery surprised at your last paragraph. Reillers could have written that for you. Did he?
Not at all, just pointing out the fact that a primarily hurling county like Cork are underperforming at underage for a number of years now. When you compare teh structures that are in Cork with tose in Tipp, Waterford or Kilkenny it is no surprise.
When the present manager and a past manager, supposedly close to the players from the strike, voice concern for a need to concentrate on a more direct game surely that has to put a question mark over the strikers' approach or honesty.
Two finals, nothing won yet. Choc full of......bound to....some decent performances? And the point is?
So they haven't changed their style? Present and past manager said they did in the second half on Sunday and scored two and one half times more. Are you saying they didn't play a more direct game against Tipp? Are you watching games on a small screen
Changing a style of game and stamping something out isn't the same thing. Where or when exactly did Ger say he wanted to "stamp out" the short game? Even reading between the lines will do.
Of course what happened then matters now. It matters now in relation to people's integrity, what the whole strike was about and the impact it has had on Cork hurling hurling in general and 'player power' overall.
Underperforming at underage? Enter Frank. Ah come on Zulu, you can do better than that. That's the maturity of your debate about the style of play of the present Cork senior team?
QuoteWhen the present manager and a past manager, supposedly close to the players from the strike, voice concern for a need to concentrate on a more direct game surely that has to put a question mark over the strikers' approach or honesty.
Eh? Some people think Cork should play a more direct game and this raises questions about the players honesty? I don't know what you're talking about.
QuoteTwo finals, nothing won yet. Choc full of......bound to....some decent performances? And the point is?
That performances have improved since Gerald left.
QuoteSo they haven't changed their style? Present and past manager said they did in the second half on Sunday and scored two and one half times more. Are you saying they didn't play a more direct game against Tipp?
There was a wind favouring Cork in the second half and for much of the second half they were being outplayed by Waterford, the two goals came against the run of play. Anyway, Cork always mixed the running game with more direct play so they haven't changed their style of play dramatically.
QuoteOf course what happened then matters now. It matters now in relation to people's integrity, what the whole strike was about and the impact it has had on Cork hurling hurling in general and 'player power' overall.
Only in your head. The reality is that none of us were involved so all our opinions are based on limited information and understanding of individuals motives. In other words alot of what you or I say and think about the issue is speculation.
But before this just returns to issues debated already (and in great depth) lets leave the strike and the reasons for it out of this. This is about the now and the future.
Cork v Limerick:
Cork GAA eventually sided with the players and have enjoyed their best year since before Gerald took over.
Limerick went with Justin and are now in division 2 of the league and out of the championship. The GAA fans you claimed followed the jersey, deserted the team in droves and won't be back next year if Justin is about.
By dealing with the situation the Cork players got a resolution and Cork have moved on. The Limerick players have allowed the situation to fester by simply 'retiring' and now after a disasterous year it looks like Justin will get the bullit and a new man will come in.
I think we know what counties will do from now on should similar issues arise.
Zulu I've no desire to rehash the old stuff either so we'll agree on that at least.
And we more or less agree on that different approaches can be taken in different games.
The fact still remains however that Denis Walsh spoke to the players at half time and told them to play a more direct game and as far as he was concerned that was more effective. At least that's what he said in his interview after the game. And Donal OGrady alluded to the same.
And this is where your denial comes in and rather than accepting what's in front of you pull out of the air that Ger wanted to stamp out the short game as if that was the problem for the players all along.
As for Limerick nothing of surprise there. However I don't think anyone in Limerick thought that by backing Justin there would be rewards on the pitch this year but were prepared to take a hit rather than end up as Cork mark 2. And Clare where the players got their wish? Are they playing better hurling this year?
Cork had a great win over Tipp, there's no doubt about that. They're still finding it hard to get past Waterford though and at the end of the day are they any closer to Kilkenny, which is what really matters?
So O'Grady it is then. I hope it works out.
http://www.anfearrua.com/db.asp?a=topicdisplay&tid=907074
Great news for Limerick Hurling if we have got Donal O'Grady as manager, also the backroom team has a huge amount of Hurling knowledge there too. Ciaran Carey, TJ Ryan and Pat Heffernan.
This will definitely ensure we have the best limerick hurlers out on the field new summer.
Luimneach Abu..
Quote from: youbetterbelieveit on September 21, 2010, 09:23:34 AM
Great news for Limerick Hurling if we have got Donal O'Grady as manager, also the backroom team has a huge amount of Hurling knowledge there too. Ciaran Carey, TJ Ryan and Pat Heffernan.
This will definitely ensure we have the best limerick hurlers out on the field new summer.
Luimneach Abu..
I know its still to be ratified and the limerick lads on AFR are creaming themselves, but I wonder did O'Grady hand pick his selectors or were they lumped upon him??
These 'dream teams' are rarely successful due to too many strong personalities who won't agree all the time.
This could mean bad news for Antrim if Gerry Wallis goes with O'Grady ?.
Quote from: orangeman on September 21, 2010, 10:52:54 AM
This could mean bad news for Antrim if Gerry Wallis goes with O'Grady ?.
Ger Cunningham is supposed to be the trainer, not sure if that's the Newtownshandrum Cunningham or the St Finbarrs Cunningham though as both are highly regarded in coaching circles.
I'd say it's the newtownshandrum one, but Isn't he actually a hospital herbertstown man? I went to college with him for one year before he left, and I was sure he was a Limerick man.
He's still to be found on the Campus a lot anyhow.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 21, 2010, 11:40:27 AM
I'd say it's the newtownshandrum one, but Isn't he actually a hospital herbertstown man? I went to college with him for one year before he left, and I was sure he was a Limerick man.
He's still to be found on the Campus a lot anyhow.
He could be but i suppose he came to prominence with the Newtown team, well that's how i first heard of him anyway.
This is a cute move by O'Grady. Expectation is low in Limerick and they still have the guts of a good team.
He is the sort of big and respected name that could bring discipline into the team by cutting out the drinking culture.
Oh just totally jealous. There were a few rumours all right, didn't believe them, to be fair. It'll be a rude wake up call for them, he's a strict one, he'll do anything to get them together and he'll get in the team behind him that he wants, he trusts. Which is genuinely fantastic.
He will take no nonsense at all. A princepal v student kind of relationship. It'll be a wake up call for a very relaxed culture in Limerick GAA, while with him at the head of Cork hurling it became the most professional set up in the country. He'll run a strict ship, and whether they're prepared for that or not, that's well, it's what they're getting. A great boost for them.
And on another note, well done the Cork County Board, he was sitting on the shelf for 6 years, a man with that brilliant management skills, hurling brain..etc. Just well done yet again. We let one of the best hurling men be
Should have been appointed director of hurling development in Cork, certainly should have been given the caretaker role, we should have grabbed the chance but instead we've shoved it back in his face. If we were really serious about getting back to the top and challenging, but unfortunately too many old heads in power looking to settle old scores. Never mind what's best for Cork hurling.
Would really fear a DoG managed team. Another c**k up by the the CCB. Not that Walsh isn't great, but there's no way we should have left O Grady out of Cork. Sad thing is that there is a long list of people who will not work with this CCB.
Reillers, given your constant, and I mean constant, carping about how the CCB will do anything to be the grand poobahs in Cork GAA, isn't your Avatar completely inappropriate.
If it's as bad as you claim, then democracy hasn't won at all.
Enjoy Sam by the way, good job Frank Murphy had nothing .... oh wait.
Quote from: Reillers on September 21, 2010, 07:25:43 PM
Oh just totally jealous. There were a few rumours all right, didn't believe them, to be fair. It'll be a rude wake up call for them, he's a strict one, he'll do anything to get them together and he'll get in the team behind him that he wants, he trusts. Which is genuinely fantastic.
He will take no nonsense at all. A princepal v student kind of relationship. It'll be a wake up call for a very relaxed culture in Limerick GAA, while with him at the head of Cork hurling it became the most professional set up in the country. He'll run a strict ship, and whether they're prepared for that or not, that's well, it's what they're getting. A great boost for them.
And on another note, well done the Cork County Board, he was sitting on the shelf for 6 years, a man with that brilliant management skills, hurling brain..etc. Just well done yet again. We let one of the best hurling men be
Should have been appointed director of hurling development in Cork, certainly should have been given the caretaker role, we should have grabbed the chance but instead we've shoved it back in his face. If we were really serious about getting back to the top and challenging, but unfortunately too many old heads in power looking to settle old scores. Never mind what's best for Cork hurling.
Would really fear a DoG managed team. Another c**k up by the the CCB. Not that Walsh isn't great, but there's no way we should have left O Grady out of Cork. Sad thing is that there is a long list of people who will not work with this CCB.
what a load of baloney. the only reason cork have anything to fear from limerick is because of the demise of cork hurling. Limerick wouldn't get within 10 points of tipp of kilkenny with their best players availlable. Teams will only fear limerick if ciaran carey and pat heffernan actually tog out for them.
Quote from: Reillers on September 21, 2010, 07:25:43 PM
Oh just totally jealous. There were a few rumours all right, didn't believe them, to be fair. It'll be a rude wake up call for them, he's a strict one, he'll do anything to get them together and he'll get in the team behind him that he wants, he trusts. Which is genuinely fantastic.
He will take no nonsense at all. A princepal v student kind of relationship. It'll be a wake up call for a very relaxed culture in Limerick GAA, while with him at the head of Cork hurling it became the most professional set up in the country. He'll run a strict ship, and whether they're prepared for that or not, that's well, it's what they're getting. A great boost for them.
And on another note, well done the Cork County Board, he was sitting on the shelf for 6 years, a man with that brilliant management skills, hurling brain..etc. Just well done yet again. We let one of the best hurling men be
Should have been appointed director of hurling development in Cork, certainly should have been given the caretaker role, we should have grabbed the chance but instead we've shoved it back in his face. If we were really serious about getting back to the top and challenging, but unfortunately too many old heads in power looking to settle old scores. Never mind what's best for Cork hurling.
Would really fear a DoG managed team. Another c**k up by the the CCB. Not that Walsh isn't great, but there's no way we should have left O Grady out of Cork. Sad thing is that there is a long list of people who will not work with this CCB.
I think I heard O'Grady on the radio this morning stressing that he still hadn't got the job and that he'd offered to take it for the year with a plan to bring on some of the Limerick lads in his backroom team to take over the managerial reigns soon.
Might have been on 2FM.
Quote from: johnneycool on September 22, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
Quote from: Reillers on September 21, 2010, 07:25:43 PM
Oh just totally jealous. There were a few rumours all right, didn't believe them, to be fair. It'll be a rude wake up call for them, he's a strict one, he'll do anything to get them together and he'll get in the team behind him that he wants, he trusts. Which is genuinely fantastic.
He will take no nonsense at all. A princepal v student kind of relationship. It'll be a wake up call for a very relaxed culture in Limerick GAA, while with him at the head of Cork hurling it became the most professional set up in the country. He'll run a strict ship, and whether they're prepared for that or not, that's well, it's what they're getting. A great boost for them.
And on another note, well done the Cork County Board, he was sitting on the shelf for 6 years, a man with that brilliant management skills, hurling brain..etc. Just well done yet again. We let one of the best hurling men be
Should have been appointed director of hurling development in Cork, certainly should have been given the caretaker role, we should have grabbed the chance but instead we've shoved it back in his face. If we were really serious about getting back to the top and challenging, but unfortunately too many old heads in power looking to settle old scores. Never mind what's best for Cork hurling.
Would really fear a DoG managed team. Another c**k up by the the CCB. Not that Walsh isn't great, but there's no way we should have left O Grady out of Cork. Sad thing is that there is a long list of people who will not work with this CCB.
I think I heard O'Grady on the radio this morning stressing that he still hadn't got the job and that he'd offered to take it for the year with a plan to bring on some of the Limerick lads in his backroom team to take over the managerial reigns soon.
Might have been on 2FM.
A year will be a God sent for Limerick, he's an excellent manager, hopefully, and this is totally selfishly, the fact that he's only looking for a year and then he could maybe come back to Cork. But after having his of acting as manager, thrown back in his face, purely because of politics and begrudges, it's such a pity that he probably wont want to work with them again. What a waste of a hurling brain.
I know people go on and on about Cody being such an outstanding manager, but really this guy is fantastic and he'll do whatever it takes to pull Limerick up by their socks.
If he can pull Limerick out of the hole they are in it will be marvellous for hurling. Imagine a championship with Galway, Offaly, Limerick, Waterford, Tipp, Cork and the Cats all potential winners and then the first four winning in rotation for the next 40 years.
Quote from: seafoid on September 22, 2010, 09:31:39 PM
If he can pull Limerick out of the hole they are in it will be marvellous for hurling. Imagine a championship with Galway, Offaly, Limerick, Waterford, Tipp, Cork and the Cats all potential winners and then the first four winning in rotation for the next 40 years.
Limerick haven't the players.
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
I don't see the players AZ. Clare were getting to munster finals before loughnane ever took over. They also rose when kilkenny were at a low ebb and cork were pretty average as well. Tipp as well were decent rather then great. Now tipp are excellent, waterford have a stream of players coming through and clare arent far behind. Munster rugby dominates limierick too.
Quote from: INDIANA on September 22, 2010, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
I don't see the players AZ. Clare were getting to munster finals before loughnane ever took over. They also rose when kilkenny were at a low ebb and cork were pretty average as well. Tipp as well were decent rather then great. Now tipp are excellent, waterford have a stream of players coming through and clare arent far behind. Munster rugby dominates limierick too.
What about Cork. We'd been having a bad run of things. Fine other things were influencing that, but he's just an outstanding manager, now they'll either like the way he does it or they'll hate it. He's the boss. It very much is a school teacher attitude, and it's all about winning battles and mind games, there was a part of Corcoran's book where he goes on about in an 04 match, I think, 2 Irish sports council officials came into the dressing room to conduct a random drug test, so Donal og and Sean Og were selected, the four of them get up to go to the bathrooms to give urine samples and O Grady comes in and asks what's going on, the 2 lads explained and he asked for documentation, they showed him cards and he points to some initials in small prints, and asked what does it mean, they said they didn't know. O Grady ate them alive, what were they doing drug testing his players and they didn't know what it meant. Very much like they were back in the principal's office. And no one was safe from it.
It was really all about winnning the mind games, no matter how small.
He came in in 02 in Cork and things completely changed around and we went from being a total shambles to the most professional set up in the country. He'll do whatever it takes, and pick the players who should play.
Back to basics and brilliant stuff, hooking, blocking, he will change it, he changed Corcoran's grip the way he was doing it despite the fact that he'd been doing it another way for most of his life. Nothing was too small.
He will make them competitive. I guarantee that. Or at the very, very least he will put the foundations for someone to carry on in the years to come if he's only staying a year.
It is such a cute move by the Limerick board.
I'm sensing that maybe you think O'Grady might be a good manager Reillers? Would that be fair to say?
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on September 22, 2010, 11:54:20 PM
I'm sensing that maybe you think O'Grady might be a good manager Reillers? Would that be fair to say?
Im sensing that Reillers has a poster of Donal O Grady in his bedroom.
Ah no, all joking aside its good to see someone being so positive about a manager on this site. Can i ask you this reillers, when i watch O Grady as a pundit, ya i think hes a decent one, but i like to think he holds back on his knowledge of the game because i find he talks at a basic level? Is this the case?
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
club hurling in Clare in the 90's was at an all time high, with four different clubs winning Munster finals and two AI club finals, Clarecastle , St Joseph's, Wolfe Tones and Sixmilebridge.
If Limerick were doing the same you could possibly understand the optimism but as good as O'Grady is he can't walk across the Shannon.
Slightly disingenuous if I may say so johnney. The first clare club to win a Munster or AI club were Sixmilebridge, and that happened *after* the senior inter county All Ireland.
They say a rising tide lifts all boats, and I think Loughnane raised standards and changed mindsets throughout that county.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 23, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
Slightly disingenuous if I may say so johnney. The first clare club to win a Munster or AI club were Sixmilebridge, and that happened *after* the senior inter county All Ireland.
They say a rising tide lifts all boats, and I think Loughnane raised standards and changed mindsets throughout that county.
Good hurlers don't rise overnight unless they're from Cork as the old mushroom saying goes.
Clare had been putting in the ground work with underage teams well before this, clearing the boards at a Feile in 85 or 86 and I remember being at a Munster final around 88 where the Munster U-16 title was contested by two Clare regional teams prior to the minor game.
If anything Loughnane knew the players were there as he'd been involved in a lot of the juvenile hurling prior to this and indeed changed the mindsets, but I don't think Limerick hurling has that same base that Loughnane had in Clare back then
Quote from: johnneycool on September 23, 2010, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 23, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
Slightly disingenuous if I may say so johnney. The first clare club to win a Munster or AI club were Sixmilebridge, and that happened *after* the senior inter county All Ireland.
They say a rising tide lifts all boats, and I think Loughnane raised standards and changed mindsets throughout that county.
Good hurlers don't rise overnight unless they're from Cork as the old mushroom saying goes.
Clare had been putting in the ground work with underage teams well before this, clearing the boards at a Feile in 85 or 86 and I remember being at a Munster final around 88 where the Munster U-16 title was contested by two Clare regional teams prior to the minor game.
If anything Loughnane knew the players were there as he'd been involved in a lot of the juvenile hurling prior to this and indeed changed the mindsets, but I don't think Limerick hurling has that same base that Loughnane had in Clare back then
Probably not, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands like Clare (as I said before), but I think a good manager who changes the mindset would bring them along the road significantly.
Of that Clare team, I think they had a great goalie, a great fullback, 2 great half backs, including the best centre back I saw, a good midfield and 1 great forward. The rest were fair to average that played above themselves, in my opinion. I don't think Limerick would be miles behind that
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 23, 2010, 09:31:19 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on September 23, 2010, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 23, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
Slightly disingenuous if I may say so johnney. The first clare club to win a Munster or AI club were Sixmilebridge, and that happened *after* the senior inter county All Ireland.
They say a rising tide lifts all boats, and I think Loughnane raised standards and changed mindsets throughout that county.
Good hurlers don't rise overnight unless they're from Cork as the old mushroom saying goes.
Clare had been putting in the ground work with underage teams well before this, clearing the boards at a Feile in 85 or 86 and I remember being at a Munster final around 88 where the Munster U-16 title was contested by two Clare regional teams prior to the minor game.
If anything Loughnane knew the players were there as he'd been involved in a lot of the juvenile hurling prior to this and indeed changed the mindsets, but I don't think Limerick hurling has that same base that Loughnane had in Clare back then
Probably not, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands like Clare (as I said before), but I think a good manager who changes the mindset would bring them along the road significantly.
Of that Clare team, I think they had a great goalie, a great fullback, 2 great half backs, including the best centre back I saw, a good midfield and 1 great forward. The rest were fair to average that played above themselves, in my opinion. I don't think Limerick would be miles behind that
I hope you aren't leaving Liam Doyle out of that half back line and Frank Lohan was certainly above average in the corner.
Granted their forwards won't go down in history as great hurlers and made up for that with huge work rate and desire.
I'm not saying a good manager won't make a difference to Limerick as surely they would.
Limericks seeming inability to stick to a gameplan and reliance on individuality to get them over the line rather than a structured approach to defending and attacking which by listening to O'Grady and seeing how well organised his Cork teams were is a big thing of his can only bode well for them if they are prepared to listen and be disciplined enough to follow instruction and that seems to be the big IF.
I am leaving Doyle out. I think I had a blind spot for him. Could never appreciate him. I thought Seanie Mac was brilliant. I don't think Frank Lohan was much above a sticky corner back. He, as a hurler, was no Canning, Kavanagh, Hanamy or Tyrell for instance. Obviously he was very effective, but that's kind of my point.
As for the rest, I agree with you. And I re-iterate, I expect O'Grady to maximise what he has, give them belief, and give them a plan. I think that will be enough to ensure they are competitive, at least, in Munster.
Quote from: Reillers on September 22, 2010, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on September 22, 2010, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
I don't see the players AZ. Clare were getting to munster finals before loughnane ever took over. They also rose when kilkenny were at a low ebb and cork were pretty average as well. Tipp as well were decent rather then great. Now tipp are excellent, waterford have a stream of players coming through and clare arent far behind. Munster rugby dominates limierick too.
there was a part of Corcoran's book where he goes on about in an 04 match, I think, 2 Irish sports council officials came into the dressing room to conduct a random drug test, so Donal og and Sean Og were selected, the four of them get up to go to the bathrooms to give urine samples and O Grady comes in and asks what's going on, the 2 lads explained and he asked for documentation, they showed him cards and he points to some initials in small prints, and asked what does it mean, they said they didn't know. O Grady ate them alive, what were they doing drug testing his players and they didn't know what it meant. Very much like they were back in the principal's office. And no one was safe from it.
We're all used to you plagarising your material straight from PROC & rebelgaa, but for the love of God would you credit your sources??
That story word for word was in today's Indo
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/right-man-right-place-right-time-2347647.html
"Once, during the 2004 championship, he approached two Irish Sports Council officials who had taken Cusack and Sean Og O hAilpin away for random drugs tests and demanded to see paperwork, which he got.
He queried the relevance of initials in small print on the forms produced, for which one official had no explanation. It was the official's first day and as Corcoran recalled it he was "like a school kid back in O'Grady's principal's office". "What," came the reply, "you're in here, drug-testing my players and you can't tell me what this means?"
With O'Grady it was all "mind games", according to Corcoran."
Quote from: heffo on September 23, 2010, 09:38:29 PM
Quote from: Reillers on September 22, 2010, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on September 22, 2010, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
I don't see the players AZ. Clare were getting to munster finals before loughnane ever took over. They also rose when kilkenny were at a low ebb and cork were pretty average as well. Tipp as well were decent rather then great. Now tipp are excellent, waterford have a stream of players coming through and clare arent far behind. Munster rugby dominates limierick too.
there was a part of Corcoran's book where he goes on about in an 04 match, I think, 2 Irish sports council officials came into the dressing room to conduct a random drug test, so Donal og and Sean Og were selected, the four of them get up to go to the bathrooms to give urine samples and O Grady comes in and asks what's going on, the 2 lads explained and he asked for documentation, they showed him cards and he points to some initials in small prints, and asked what does it mean, they said they didn't know. O Grady ate them alive, what were they doing drug testing his players and they didn't know what it meant. Very much like they were back in the principal's office. And no one was safe from it.
We're all used to you plagarising your material straight from PROC & rebelgaa, but for the love of God would you credit your sources??
That story word for word was in today's Indo
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/right-man-right-place-right-time-2347647.html
"Once, during the 2004 championship, he approached two Irish Sports Council officials who had taken Cusack and Sean Og O hAilpin away for random drugs tests and demanded to see paperwork, which he got.
He queried the relevance of initials in small print on the forms produced, for which one official had no explanation. It was the official's first day and as Corcoran recalled it he was "like a school kid back in O'Grady's principal's office". "What," came the reply, "you're in here, drug-testing my players and you can't tell me what this means?"
With O'Grady it was all "mind games", according to Corcoran."
Will you get over it ffs. I'm psychic now as well am I? For the love of God.
Quote from: Reillers on September 23, 2010, 11:38:08 PM
Quote from: heffo on September 23, 2010, 09:38:29 PM
Quote from: Reillers on September 22, 2010, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on September 22, 2010, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
I don't see the players AZ. Clare were getting to munster finals before loughnane ever took over. They also rose when kilkenny were at a low ebb and cork were pretty average as well. Tipp as well were decent rather then great. Now tipp are excellent, waterford have a stream of players coming through and clare arent far behind. Munster rugby dominates limierick too.
there was a part of Corcoran's book where he goes on about in an 04 match, I think, 2 Irish sports council officials came into the dressing room to conduct a random drug test, so Donal og and Sean Og were selected, the four of them get up to go to the bathrooms to give urine samples and O Grady comes in and asks what's going on, the 2 lads explained and he asked for documentation, they showed him cards and he points to some initials in small prints, and asked what does it mean, they said they didn't know. O Grady ate them alive, what were they doing drug testing his players and they didn't know what it meant. Very much like they were back in the principal's office. And no one was safe from it.
We're all used to you plagarising your material straight from PROC & rebelgaa, but for the love of God would you credit your sources??
That story word for word was in today's Indo
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/right-man-right-place-right-time-2347647.html
"Once, during the 2004 championship, he approached two Irish Sports Council officials who had taken Cusack and Sean Og O hAilpin away for random drugs tests and demanded to see paperwork, which he got.
He queried the relevance of initials in small print on the forms produced, for which one official had no explanation. It was the official's first day and as Corcoran recalled it he was "like a school kid back in O'Grady's principal's office". "What," came the reply, "you're in here, drug-testing my players and you can't tell me what this means?"
With O'Grady it was all "mind games", according to Corcoran."
Will you get over it ffs. I'm physic now as well am I? For the love of God.
No, you're not physic - you're a serial plagarist.
I can't see for the life of me why someone bullying someone going about their job in a professional manner should be a cause for celebration - who were these 'mind games' against? Some Sports council official in his early twenties? Yeah O'Grady is some hero alright..
Quote from: heffo on September 24, 2010, 12:07:24 PM
Quote from: Reillers on September 23, 2010, 11:38:08 PM
Quote from: heffo on September 23, 2010, 09:38:29 PM
Quote from: Reillers on September 22, 2010, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on September 22, 2010, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
I don't see the players AZ. Clare were getting to munster finals before loughnane ever took over. They also rose when kilkenny were at a low ebb and cork were pretty average as well. Tipp as well were decent rather then great. Now tipp are excellent, waterford have a stream of players coming through and clare arent far behind. Munster rugby dominates limierick too.
there was a part of Corcoran's book where he goes on about in an 04 match, I think, 2 Irish sports council officials came into the dressing room to conduct a random drug test, so Donal og and Sean Og were selected, the four of them get up to go to the bathrooms to give urine samples and O Grady comes in and asks what's going on, the 2 lads explained and he asked for documentation, they showed him cards and he points to some initials in small prints, and asked what does it mean, they said they didn't know. O Grady ate them alive, what were they doing drug testing his players and they didn't know what it meant. Very much like they were back in the principal's office. And no one was safe from it.
We're all used to you plagarising your material straight from PROC & rebelgaa, but for the love of God would you credit your sources??
That story word for word was in today's Indo
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/right-man-right-place-right-time-2347647.html
"Once, during the 2004 championship, he approached two Irish Sports Council officials who had taken Cusack and Sean Og O hAilpin away for random drugs tests and demanded to see paperwork, which he got.
He queried the relevance of initials in small print on the forms produced, for which one official had no explanation. It was the official's first day and as Corcoran recalled it he was "like a school kid back in O'Grady's principal's office". "What," came the reply, "you're in here, drug-testing my players and you can't tell me what this means?"
With O'Grady it was all "mind games", according to Corcoran."
Will you get over it ffs. I'm physic now as well am I? For the love of God.
No, you're not physic - you're a serial plagarist.
I can't see for the life of me why someone bullying someone going about their job in a professional manner should be a cause for celebration - who were these 'mind games' against? Some Sports council official in his early twenties? Yeah O'Grady is some hero alright..
Ah yes, of course I am. How, was I supposed to know what someone was going to print a day after I posted it. It's is beyond belief that you have been banned yet. You are a wum, and it's unbelievable that you're still here.
Quote from: Reillers on September 24, 2010, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: heffo on September 24, 2010, 12:07:24 PM
Quote from: Reillers on September 23, 2010, 11:38:08 PM
Quote from: heffo on September 23, 2010, 09:38:29 PM
Quote from: Reillers on September 22, 2010, 10:28:55 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on September 22, 2010, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Neither did Clare in the 90s, but Loughnane made them a team. It only needs 5 or 6 good players to mould a team around, and then a sense of purpose, togetherness and a game plan will take you a good bit of the way.
I don't think Limerick will be winning All Irelands, but I think they'll be looking at a poor Munster Championship (If Tipp freewheel in may again) as possible.
Div 2 ain't going to help though.
I don't see the players AZ. Clare were getting to munster finals before loughnane ever took over. They also rose when kilkenny were at a low ebb and cork were pretty average as well. Tipp as well were decent rather then great. Now tipp are excellent, waterford have a stream of players coming through and clare arent far behind. Munster rugby dominates limierick too.
there was a part of Corcoran's book where he goes on about in an 04 match, I think, 2 Irish sports council officials came into the dressing room to conduct a random drug test, so Donal og and Sean Og were selected, the four of them get up to go to the bathrooms to give urine samples and O Grady comes in and asks what's going on, the 2 lads explained and he asked for documentation, they showed him cards and he points to some initials in small prints, and asked what does it mean, they said they didn't know. O Grady ate them alive, what were they doing drug testing his players and they didn't know what it meant. Very much like they were back in the principal's office. And no one was safe from it.
We're all used to you plagarising your material straight from PROC & rebelgaa, but for the love of God would you credit your sources??
That story word for word was in today's Indo
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/right-man-right-place-right-time-2347647.html
"Once, during the 2004 championship, he approached two Irish Sports Council officials who had taken Cusack and Sean Og O hAilpin away for random drugs tests and demanded to see paperwork, which he got.
He queried the relevance of initials in small print on the forms produced, for which one official had no explanation. It was the official's first day and as Corcoran recalled it he was "like a school kid back in O'Grady's principal's office". "What," came the reply, "you're in here, drug-testing my players and you can't tell me what this means?"
With O'Grady it was all "mind games", according to Corcoran."
Will you get over it ffs. I'm physic now as well am I? For the love of God.
No, you're not physic - you're a serial plagarist.
I can't see for the life of me why someone bullying someone going about their job in a professional manner should be a cause for celebration - who were these 'mind games' against? Some Sports council official in his early twenties? Yeah O'Grady is some hero alright..
Ah yes, of course I am. How, was I supposed to know what someone was going to print a day after I posted it. It's is beyond belief that you have been banned yet. You are a wum, and it's unbelievable that you're still here.
You would know someone is going to print something as your post was at 10.35pm on the night it was printed in that day's paper - it's not rocket science.
How am I a WUM? Where is the pride in bullying some young fella from the Sports council doing his job??
Somehow I don't expect to see Noel Hickey giving an interview next week bristling with pride about the time Cody reduced a 15 year old waitress to tears when he got a dirty fork...us against them lads....us against them...