Another day, another Republican Atrocity goes (conveniently) unremembered...

[Hardy]

Sorry for throwing a wobbler earlier Hardy. I was at work and a little stressed. You got into the crosshairs and I snapped.

No need for an apology, Zig. If that was the standard, I'd be spending most of my time here apologising.

[Eamonnca1]

Och let EG stay, bless him. Sometimes it's better to let people talk away and let them make fools of themselves. Anyway it always helps to have an alternative point of view about the place no matter how irritating it is.  There's no point in turning this place into a ghetto where we only want to deal with our own, there's enough ghettoes in the real world.

[theskull1]

EG needs to grow up a bit and develop a bit if wisdom. He's like a teacher asking children to own up to who stole the apple from the desk.

The reality is that the truth when it comes to events which happened during the troubles is an ugly twisted mess. When truth is so ugly and unpalatable, almost all humans perpetrators are programmed to bury it and hope they never have to face up and explain their actions especially in front of the families of the victims. We all would do the same. The notion that MMcG could and should just walk into a police station and rid his soul of "what he knows" is just too niave a thought for someone who wants to be taken seriously.

On a wider context personally speaking I'm unsure as to whether I want to know just how ugly the troubles were. I reckon we don't know the half of it. The victims have a different perspective of course but the whole sorry mess is something I want to move on from and focus on the day in front if me. The numbers of people wedded to the past in this country is a big big problem.

[nifan]

Irrelevant to the cut and thrust of this thread I notice that the linked wikipedia article has the location of the memorial incorrect - it says it is on main street, when it is in fact on church street - beside the hotel. Proving once again not to take wikipedia as your only reference.

[deiseach]

EG needs to grow up a bit and develop a bit if wisdom. He's like a teacher asking children to own up to who stole the apple from the desk.

The reality is that the truth when it comes to events which happened during the troubles is an ugly twisted mess. When truth is so ugly and unpalatable, almost all humans perpetrators are programmed to bury it and hope they never have to face up and explain their actions especially in front of the families of the victims. We all would do the same. The notion that MMcG could and should just walk into a police station and rid his soul of "what he knows" is just too niave a thought for someone who wants to be taken seriously.

On a wider context personally speaking I'm unsure as to whether I want to know just how ugly the troubles were. I reckon we don't know the half of it. The victims have a different perspective of course but the whole sorry mess is something I want to move on from and focus on the day in front if me. The numbers of people wedded to the past in this country is a big big problem.

+1

[Nally Stand]

FFS ur begining to get as annoying as the remember 1981 brigade Evil G. Begining to lose alot of the respect I had for you. Your just so one sided, your no different to the likes as Nally.

You mean your finally copping on to EG now? Quick on the ball there ya fcukwit. Some fella you are to be talking about respect when you have made numerous sick "jokes" and references to the hunger strikers in your time.

[OakleafCounty]

One thing I don't understand is why unionists have taken claudy as their own tragedy. Claudy is and was a majority catholic village and catholics were killed in those bombs. Yet you only ever see unionists get interviewed about it.

As for McGuinness knowing who did it. There's a good chance he doesn't. Local people think that it was carried out by members of the county Derry brigade from the Dungiven directions. McGuinness was in the city brigade. It's common knowledge that the provos operated in small cells that didn't share info like who did what with other cells in order to minimise the chance of informants catching on.

I'm sure Miriam O'Callaghan knew this when she was grilling him during the presidential elections.

[Lar Naparka]

EG needs to grow up a bit and develop a bit if wisdom. He's like a teacher asking children to own up to who stole the apple from the desk.

The reality is that the truth when it comes to events which happened during the troubles is an ugly twisted mess. When truth is so ugly and unpalatable, almost all humans perpetrators are programmed to bury it and hope they never have to face up and explain their actions especially in front of the families of the victims. We all would do the same. The notion that MMcG could and should just walk into a police station and rid his soul of "what he knows" is just too niave a thought for someone who wants to be taken seriously.

On a wider context personally speaking I'm unsure as to whether I want to know just how ugly the troubles were. I reckon we don't know the half of it. The victims have a different perspective of course but the whole sorry mess is something I want to move on from and focus on the day in front if me. The numbers of people wedded to the past in this country is a big big problem.

+1

+2

[stew]

Och let EG stay, bless him. Sometimes it's better to let people talk away and let them make fools of themselves. Anyway it always helps to have an alternative point of view about the place no matter how irritating it is.  There's no point in turning this place into a ghetto where we only want to deal with our own, there's enough ghettoes in the real world.

Bless him, no atheists in foxholes and all that.

[Evil Genius]

Anniversary of the Miami showband massacre today also.

Conveniently forgotten by Evil Genius.

I have absolutely no problem with people commemorating the Miami massacre etc (how could I?), but this is a discussion forum and what discussion/dissent/debate can there be on a forum like this over so clear-cut an atrocity as that?

I mean, it's not as if there's any shortage of threads and references to that and other (self-styled) Loyalist atrocities on this forum, as is only to be expected.

And besides, 3 men were tried, convicted and sent to prison for life for that outrage (though regrettably they were deemed entitled to be released early in 1998)

And if I were to start a thread on Miami now, I'd only be accused of insincerity and cynicism etc.

But if you or anyone else wants to start such a thread, then please do. In fact, I'll even provide my response in advance, for you to cut-and-paste:

"By any standards, the Miami Showband Massacre was a vile atrocity, which cannot be defended/condoned/explained or otherwise diminished by any reasonable human being, in any circumstances or context. Nor should it ever be forgotten. But the fact that it was carried out by people in Army uniform i.e. who had sworn an oath to uphold the law not break it, makes it particularly shameful for Unionists like me. Which is why I believe that no effort should be spared to find, try and punish the other perpetrators, no matter who they are, or how far their activities and influence spread. As such, it is morally and legally incumbent upon any and every citizen who knows anything about it to tell what they know to the relevant authorities and to Hell with the consequences. For until every question about this disgusting episode is answered, then the (still-grieving) victims and bereaved can never receive the Truth and Justice which they sorely and evidently deserve."

[Evil Genius]

One thing I don't understand is why unionists have taken claudy as their own tragedy. Claudy is and was a majority catholic village and catholics were killed in those bombs.

I don't think Unionists do/should see this as their "own tragedy", rather they see it an an IRA Atrocity - it being all the more important that it be seen to be so, since no-one has ever been convicted for it, indeed(afaik) the Provos have never even admitted carrying it out.

Yet you only ever see unionists get interviewed about it.

I'm not sure that that is especially significant, since many of the victims/bereaved have died since, many others don't want to talk publicly about it (too painful) and others, frankly, may not make very articulate interviewees. Therefore the same few individuals (who may feel a need to talk about it?) tend to get interviewed all the time.

It's the same eg with Enniskillen, where eg Gordon Wilson proved an admirable (unofficial) spokesman for many victims, whereas eg Jim Dixon, who drew different conclusions from the massacre, was given much less air-time.

And with Omagh, by far the most prominent/regularly interviewee is Michael Gallagher.

As for McGuinness knowing who did it. There's a good chance he doesn't. Local people think that it was carried out by members of the county Derry brigade from the Dungiven directions. McGuinness was in the city brigade. It's common knowledge that the provos operated in small cells that didn't share info like who did what with other cells in order to minimise the chance of informants catching on.

Not in 1972, they didn't:

"Prior to 1977, the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) was organized along traditional military models with brigades, battalions and companies.  The battalions were formed along geographic boundaries, and most volunteers (members) knew what other battalions were doing and who was giving the orders. They openly fraternized with one another and frequented the PIRA drinking clubs.  In fact, they would sing IRA songs and hold up one, two or three fingers, indicating which "Batt" they belonged to."
http://www.maryduncan.net/?cat=11

I'm sure Miriam O'Callaghan knew this when she was grilling him during the presidential elections.

I rather think she may have been more minded of this:
Martin McGuinness said civilians killed by IRA bombs in the North died "through their own fault, being too nosey" and ignoring warnings, during an interview with an American radio journalist in 1972 -- the worst year of the Troubles for deaths due in large part to civilian deaths in IRA atrocities.
McGuinness was asked by National Public Radio (NPR) journalist Neal Conan about the numbers of civilians being killed when he met and interviewed McGuinness at his home in the Bogside of Derry. In his introduction to his piece, while McGuinness was present, he described him as "Provisional IRA commander in Derry" to no objection from McGuinness.
In 1972, the IRA carried out a series of atrocities including the bombing of the village of Claudy in Co Derry in which a van bomb killed nine people including a nine-year-old girl, Kathryn Eakin.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-interview-that-has-come-back-to-haunt-a-presidential-candidate-2907444.html

[The Iceman]

I think he should be banned. His sole purpose would seem to be to stir up trouble. Not here to engage in discussion or debate but to score points.
There is real hatred cloaked in eloquent words and condescending jibes.

Get rid of him.

[Oraisteach]

Talk of banning EG? What! Are we nuts? This is a discussion board with a non-GAA- related section.  What kind of society are we advocating that censors opinions that we don't like?  All that EG is guilty of is a smug superiority and occasional double standards to which he appears blind.  Hardly capital offenses.  If his opinions bother you, ignore them or simply look for the flapping flag and don't read them.  Otherwise, take him on or call him out.  Whatever Ireland will eventually evolve into, it will have to deal with a kaleidescope of hateful loyalist attitudes, way way way more bothersome than the stinging gadfly views  expressed by EG.  Eamonn is right on this one.

[haveaharp]

Talk of banning EG? What! Are we nuts? This is a discussion board with a non-GAA- related section.  What kind of society are we advocating that censors opinions that we don't like?  All that EG is guilty of is a smug superiority and occasional double standards to which he appears blind.  Hardly capital offenses.  If his opinions bother you, ignore them or simply look for the flapping flag and don't read them.  Otherwise, take him on or call him out.  Whatever Ireland will eventually evolve into, it will have to deal with a kaleidescope of hateful loyalist attitudes, way way way more bothersome than the stinging gadfly views  expressed by EG.  Eamonn is right on this one.

Totally agree. What are we to become, the mirror of OWC ? 

[Denn Forever]

I think he should be banned. His sole purpose would seem to be to stir up trouble. Not here to engage in discussion or debate but to score points.
There is real hatred cloaked in eloquent words and condescending jibes.

Get rid of him.

How is he stirring up trouble?

The vast majority of posters do not seem to give him any credence.  But for those who did not live through the troubles it is good to get both sides.  If we are greatly exercised by what has been said we can check it out for ourselves.