Cill Dara v Fear Manach

[Uladh]

Has Fermanagh's season represented progress from all that went before under charlie mulgrew?

[FermGael]

Has Fermanagh's season represented progress from all that went before under charlie mulgrew?

Very valid question Uladh and the answer would be Yes IMO.
Under Mulgrew Fermanagh managed to get them to an All Ireland semi final in his first season. 
The main reason for this was because we got put out of Ulster in the first round and managed to get a good run going in the backdoor.  We really should have beat Mayo in the All Ireland semi the first day but we did not.
In the next 2 years we really did not do an awful lot.  Ulster semi's being the height of it (after beating Antrim) and relegation to division 3.  We managed a couple of wins in the qualifiers but nothing of any note.
Under O'Rourke we have reached an Ulster final and have been promoted to division 2.  If you talk to any of the players, they will tell you that Fermanagh now adopt a professional approach to everything (and before anybody states the obvious, shooting will be the target for next year's team).  The difference between O'Rourke and Mulgrew is like night and day.  My personal feeling is that success came a wee bit earlier than expected for O'Rourke and his team and the real benefits of his approach will not really be felt until next year. 
Granted Mulgrew got us to an All Ireland semi but under O'Rourke the players are better prepared, better resourced and treated the way county players are in Armagh and Tyrone.  I feel that is progress and there is more to come from this group of players.  They are a work in progress.

[Dinny Breen]

BNM

This is the first time I have seen Kildare in the flesh since McGeeney took over.
The most obvious influence is the constant body checking or impedment of the player who has just released the ball to stop him taking a return pass. Very much a Joe Kernan tactic at Armagh.

Hmm, we're not the worst, Kerry were at it against Monaghan as well, it's a negative tactic used across the board.

I'm not sure how good or bad Kildare are, I suspect unlucky against Wicklow and a little bit fortunate in how the fixtures have fallen for them since then.

Nope, just dire against Wicklow, how are the fixtures fortunate, Limerick and Fermanagh were odds on favourites whereas Cavan pushed Armagh all the way, always easy in hindsight eh 

While their forwards have traditionally been ridiculed, for the past four or five years Kildare's woeful defending has been their undoing.

Hard to argue with that, how do you rate our forwards now, Doyle obviously is good but I believe Smith and Conway have the talent to be just as good.

They at least now have an effective defensive system in operation that choked Fermanagh of space.

The players really have bought into it and Cork will have to work hard for every score..

However if Cork use the long ball to combat the swarm defence, on average most of their forwards are a few inches taller than Fermanagh's.

Not as simply as that as O'Neill is probably one of the best full backs left in the quarters now that he's fit and back in form. Plus although the full-back line has been brutal all year but since the Cavan game they have been our best line.

I don't think Kildare can afford another slow start the next day out. They have gotten away with it in the last couple of games, but I can't see them managing to exert dominance over the Cork midfield if they do need to reel in a deficit.

Mention the same on another thread, Kildare aren't good enough yet to comeback at teams so need to start well against Cork, if we go toe to toe Kildare have the belief they'll win a tight game. However Cork have a better midfield although if Flynn starts then Kildare might get parity then it becomes a shoot-out and who knows what will happen then..

Anyway, really enjoying watching Kildare win games again, not pretty I know but for a work in progress very happy with an All-Ireland quarter-final, part of me believes a semi-final would actually stunt our progress ala Meath last year. Time will tell.

[AidyMac]

Disappointed with the performance.  If Fermanagh had of taken the nine scores in the first 11 minutes, then Kildare would have found it tough coming back.

Cannot and will not put the blame on the players after what they have put in this year.

Some good performances from players all year and if Fermanagh had a Paddy Bradley or a Stevie O'Neill, then they would not be too far away

With the work ethic of the forwards, do you think it would be possible to carry a free kick taker on the game day?

On a side not, very dissappointed with Geezer.  When talking to John Doyle on the sideline, Peter Sherry was over trying to listen to what was being said.  Geezer tried to push him away and even gave him a nip on the chest.  Don't think this should be the action of a manager!!

[Bord na Mona man]

BNM

Kildare were a Division 1 team this year while Fermanagh, Limerick and Cavan hinge between Division 2 and 3.
If you excuse the defeat against Wicklow, then Kildare should realistically have been able to match those sides.
Granted Fermanagh had form, but it suited Kildare to play them straight after the Ulster final.
Cork are are a big step up from this standard.

As regards forward play.
I think Kildare are well set up to play counter attacking football.
They started to punish Fermanagh once Fermanagh were forced to commit bodies forward.
The O'Dwyer style tended to compress the space for their own forwards meaning they tended to shoot under pressure.

Under McGeeney their forwards can make now make early runs and anticipate a delivery.
Against Wicklow, it fell apart because the deliveries were mostly misdirected or badly hit.
Kildare now look to have forwards who are better at winning dirty ball, if it is any way decent. Or maybe they always had, but this was never established?

I'm not certain about O'Neill's prowess under the high ball. Fermanagh hit in few Garryowens that wouldn't suit most forwards. Somehow it worked the first day against Armagh, but it hasn't since then. My impression (from limited viewing) is that O'Neill is a mobile, footballing full back. If Cork were to go down the Cussen route, I'd be curious to see how it pans out.

On paper Kildare look reasonably strong. With players like Brennan and Earley - playing matches, rather than winter slogging will get them to peak condition. For the first time in a number of years, Kildare have their best 15 on the field. I would still expect Cork to have too much for them though.

[Malone Aristocrat]

When will people learn that league football or the divisions people occupy is irrelevent to championship football

[AZOffaly]

In a fit, last night, I sat through the Kildare - Fermanagh first half last night to see what went on again. As I sometimes like to do, I decided to diagram where the teams were taking shots from, and missing, to see if I could see a pattern. As I went through it, a clear pattern actually emerged, especially in relation to Fermanagh, and I think a lot of it comes down to Kildares' defence, and Fermanagh's lack of a Barry Owens. Taking my geekiness to new levels, I plotted the shots onto a map of a pitch, and I've posted it below. As you can see Kildare forced Fermanagh (or the lack of a target man forced them) to take shots from angles. Not one of Fermanagh's shots could be termed as in front of the posts. If Kildare can do that again to Cork, especially if Michael Cussen can be neutralised, they will take beating again. I was impressed with Kildare's defence on second viewing, at times it was like the Mighty Duck's Flying V formation, forcing Fermanagh down the channels, away from the front of the goal.

The diagram below shows red circles where kicks from play were wide (the players number is in the circle), greens are scores from play, blues are wides from frees. I think it's quite startling to see where Fermanagh were kicking from. From Kildare's perspective, it was much more spread out across the field.

PS. Before ye start, yes I am aware this is fairly nerdy

[the Deel Rover]

Jesus Az if your not carefull  aZ  the lads from Tv3 will be giving you a call , wouldn't be surprised if we see your Diagram on Sunday 

[Armamike]

Good analysis AZ, you could make a living out of this!  Okay, the shots are from angles, but you'd still expect intercounty forwards to be putting a highish proportion of those over the bar.

[Sam Maguire]

excellent diagram AZ. Out of interest how did you do this? paint?

also does the Ferbane lads use this to analyse their games?

[AZOffaly]

Good analysis AZ, you could make a living out of this!  Okay, the shots are from angles, but you'd still expect intercounty forwards to be putting a highish proportion of those over the bar.

Yes, you would Armamike, but look at the people taking the shots as well. 4 wides were from wing backs, and another 2 were from Marty McGrath wide on the right... Again, it points to the fact that Fermanagh simply couldn't work the ball in to forwards in good positions for whatever reason. The Kildare backs definitely had a big say in that.

[AZOffaly]

excellent diagram AZ. Out of interest how did you do this? paint?

also does the Ferbane lads use this to analyse their games?

Visio - Save as jpg.

Ferbane do use stats, but not so much in shot selection/wides v score analysis, more in terms of kickouts won etc. Lone Shark is the man for that I think...

[Maximus Marillius]

AZ.....resepct....top class analysis...and as you very acturately point out the majority of shots were not by forwrads explaining the mess.

[AZOffaly]

For comparison purposes, this is Kildare's shot chart in the first half. The Yellow circle is a successful free. (I only counted wides or scores, not dropped short, or saved penalties). Note both scores from play were fairly central, also most of the shooting was done by half forwards or full forwards, with only Dermot Early taking a shot outside of them. And he scored from a central position.

[Uladh]

You touched on a very important point az - one entirely missed by the like of McHugh, Brolly, etc. and that is that quality defending will result in forcing opponents to take shots from wide areas under pressure, therefore minimising the accuracy. most decent county teams should have a policy of forcing the opposition wide and then concentrating of maximum pressure until the shot is away. pressure being preferable to the block.

of course McHugh etc reckon it's just bad shooting!