Poots hits out at gay rugby team

[saffron sam2]

Sorry are you now saying that some time ago, I said that the Linfield rule was unwritten (which is true although I don't remember saying it) or that DC were excluded on security grounds (again true and again I don't remember saying it) and those two things mean that I support the policy and am a bigot.

Ok right got that. 

No, you don't get it. You said that the Linfield rule / practice was ok because it was unwritten; you didn't simply state that it was unwritten.
Nor is it true to say that DC was excluded on security grounds. DC were excluded by votes taken by the then B Division teams*. To try to hide this behind 'security grounds' is not the action of reasonable man.

* The RUC club was one that voted consistently in favour of DC being admitted to the B Division. How's that for security?

Hopefully, you have got that now.

[his holiness nb]

Jaysus Holiness, you need to go back on the fags.

AZ, if you read the Long Kesh thread and the last few pages between myself and Sammy, you will understand.

I dont beleive Sammy is that stupid.

[his holiness nb]

Sam, look at Sammys last few posts in the Long Kesh thread. He is clearly a WUM. I wouldnt worry about him.

Luckily there are a few guys from OWC who are capable of intelligent and reasoned debate on here. Hats tipped to Nifan and chris. And to a lesser extent EG.

The funny thing is Sammy is a mod on OWC, you would think he would be more careful with what he says, rather than make an idiot out of himself repeatedly.
I've lost count how many times he has been caught out on here now and refused to backtrack.

Pot and kettle.

I've apologised / retracted statements a few times before when I have gotten something wrong Sammy.
You seem incapable, as if you see it as some sign of weakness. Its not.

[dublinfella]

I've apologised / retracted statements a few times before when I have gotten something wrong Sammy.
You seem incapable, as if you see it as some sign of weakness. Its not.

I'm away on holiday, so wont be near the site for 2 weeks, so who cares.

You are by a mile the worst culprit [Edited by Mod 3] Weakness? Hilarious.

See you all in 10 days or whatever the mods decide is appropriate to protect the precious holiness.

[Gaaboardmod3]

I've apologised / retracted statements a few times before when I have gotten something wrong Sammy.
You seem incapable, as if you see it as some sign of weakness. Its not.

I'm away on holiday, so wont be near the site for 2 weeks, so who cares.

You are by a mile the worst culprit [Mod 3]. Weakness? Hilarious.

See you all in 10 days or whatever the mods decide is appropriate to protect the precious holiness.

Have a good holiday. It's 15 days this time by the way. (rule 9 - Third offence).

[winsamsoon]

Granted lads there is a gay rugby team set up. I wasn't aware until reading the posts that the founding member claims it is open to anyone (and i am still on about the team  ). However i don't see the reason why the Gay label should be put on the team. It is secregating the gay community and sending out a message that Gay people would prefer to be (how can i put this that it won't sound funny) Playing with each other  ( It didn't work). So they are actually contradicting themselves. Gay activist groups would claim they are being astrocised from society by other groups, this time it is actually them that are secluding themselves from the rest of society.
     
    I do also realise that Poots and the DUP are very bigoted when it comes to issues like this. Kind of like my way or the highway type of thing. They share close links with the bible belt that exists in the southern American states. You have all seen them were things are run kind of like a huge family were no one is permitted to cross religious  barriers. Poots needs to grow up and show an open minded approach. His personal beliefs should not influence any ministerial decisions he makes about the community.

[Croí na hÉireann]

I've apologised / retracted statements a few times before when I have gotten something wrong Sammy.
You seem incapable, as if you see it as some sign of weakness. Its not.

I'm away on holiday, so wont be near the site for 2 weeks, so who cares.

You are by a mile the worst culprit [Edited by Mod 3] Weakness? Hilarious.

See you all in 10 days or whatever the mods decide is appropriate to protect the precious holiness.

Don't forget to take your ball beachball with u, mind ur arse on de way out 

[Evil Genius]

Unfortunately, once again, entirely predictably we have, not one, but two posts from EG brim filled with whataboutery, selective quoting, assinine assumptions, crass generalisations, extrapolations and shouting bigot as loudly as possible.

You misunderstand the correct meaning of "Whataboutery". Nowhere have I tried to deny or defend the shortcomings of my own sport by pointing to the shortcomings (even where greater) of some other sport. Rather, I have tried to point to the double standards of someone accusing one sport (soccer) of failings which infect another sport (GAA) which he also espouses.

As for "selective quotations" - of course I have selected quotations to support my argument! The point is whether I have ignored other quotations etc which are inconvenient. And on this point, I think I can claim it is not my style to run away from difficult issues, or pretend they don't exist.

And let's have some evidence of "assinine assumptions" or "crass generalisations" in either of my last two posts. Ditto "extrapolations".

And as for "shouting bigot as loudly as possible" - the only reference I can recall was a (carefully selected!) quotation by Kenny Archer where HE denounced a certain type of critic as being bigoted.

As such, I will happily engage in debate with those who try to deny what is evident to all reasonable observers, especially when those who would deny it are adherents of a sport which has failed utterly to draw even the most token of representation and participation from across the divide in NI throughout its entire history.

Indeed, if my sport (soccer) failed equally to attract support and participation from all the main communities in NI on anything like so stark a scale, I would be ashamed. None of which should necessarily be a stick with which to beat the GAA - it is only, as I said, the right thing in itself. But I must confess to finding it hard to take such utterly unfair and unreasonable criticism from someone (Saffron Sam) whose own preferred sport is so flawed, to a much greater degree.

If you consider your preferred sport to be soccer, then fair enough, I will happily concede that particular point. Can I assume, however, that on the basis of your moniker and many of your posts in the other sections of the Board, it is still reasonable to describe you as also being an "adherent" of GAA sports? (About which, more below)

As Kenny Archer once famously pointed out in his column in the Irish News: "Those who wish to live in the past and apply outdated labels to all Northern Ireland fans are the real bigots."

He did indeed, but nowhere in any of my posts have I labelled all NI as bigots. I would suggest, based on their posts here that nifan, Chrisowc, MW, gawa316 and SBE Tim are not bigots. I have absolutely no problems however labelling you as a bigot.

You will also no doubt be aware of the equally famous (in some quarters anyway) of the Kenny Archer column where he took to task a spokesperson for ANISC who claimed that something as blindingly obvious (to the reasonable folk away) as changing the anthem played at NI matches would set back any progress made by FFA. A fragile thing this FFA.

You have no problem labelling me as a Bigot. Fair enough, but I've news for you: I couldn't care less whether you do or don't - and certainly not enough to run to the Mods to "tout" you, as certain individuals on this Board are wont to do  I'm sure people can make up their own minds without your help (or mine).

As for the other Archer point (Amalgamation spokesman), I'm not familiar with the exact reference, but can I assume that the spokesman's argument was along the lines "If you make an issue of the anthem and withdraw it, that will only cause more trouble by hardening the determination of the extremists to maintain it"? If so, I personally think it a weak argument. On which point, I have consistently posted hereabouts that I would like to see GSTQ replaced by a distinctively Norn Iron tune and we should face down those who would keep GSTQ. In which case, your citing Archer on this point in reply to me adds nothing to your argument, indeed is utterly irrelevant, since I am on his side on this issue. 

Indeed, if my sport (soccer) failed equally to attract support and participation from all the main communities in NI on anything like so stark a scale, I would be ashamed. None of which should necessarily be a stick with which to beat the GAA - it is only, as I said, the right thing in itself. But I must confess to finding it hard to take such utterly unfair and unreasonable criticism from someone (Saffron Sam) whose own preferred sport is so flawed, to a much greater degree.

You make quite silly little assumptions here. What do you know about my preferred sport? Because I post on a gaa based message board, Gaelic sports must be my preferred sports?

I haven't played a game of Gaelic football in the last ten years - I played a game of soccer as recently as last Saturday (a 1-1 draw by the way).
I am not a member of any GAA club - I am the secretary of a soccer club.
I can describe the changing rooms at most Irish league grounds - I have never even made it into the changing rooms at Casement Park.
Our school fields teams in six sports - I am only involved in one of the six. I'll let you guess which one.
When you started the infamous "NISFA picks Fenians" (I paraphrase) thread, you will have noticed then that only 11 out of the twelve Belfast places on the committee had been taken up. Have a guess at who was supposed to be the 12th man?

I will let the reasonable posters out there decide what my preferred sport may be.

Fine. You prefer soccer over GAA. Further, when you have had bad experiences in soccer, you have condemned those. I have no problems with either, indeed I sincerely regret any discrimination which you have faced. However, unless you can demonstrate your equivalent or greater outrage at the equivalent or greater problems which GAA, your other sport, experiences in its relations with the Unionist community, then your criticisms of soccer are less credible, since they appear to be from someone who espouses double standards. Note: I say "appear", since i couldn't be arsed going through all your posts. Therefore, if you can demonstrate your equivalent anger/dismay/outrage etc over the GAA's chronic failure throughout its entire history to reach out to 1 million Irish people of a Unionist persuasion, or its unworthy, even outrageous practices in certain areas, then I will happily concede.

I will base any posts about the IFA / soccer on either my own experiences from having been involved in soccer at various levels over the past twenty years or from verifiable sources. I believe that there is a will in some people to change, but I don't think that it is particularly widespread. I don't think for example (and I now I am going back a bit) that those whose jealously guarded Linfield's anti-Catholic policy for years suddenly changed ther attitudes overnight. I don't believe that those clubs who consistently and persistently voted against DC and Lurgan Celtic coming into the B division have had Damascus like conversions to reasonable people as a result of the vote*. I too could go on with many, many more examples, but what is the point?

How curious your choice of examples to back up your case - Linfield's former policy on Catholics and DC's previous exclusion from the B Division. Now on these points, I have never denied/condoned/defended such prejudice. And I daresay you are correct that those peope who held those prejudices will likely still hold them (in so far as they are still to be had). But how curious that you should ignore the more recent developments which have hugely transformed the situation. These days, there is no religious bar to who LFC picks - indeed, afaik there have been times when RC's have been in a majority on the team, including under idolised captains like Pat "Billy" Fenlon (a Dub, no less!). And that's before we ackowledge the "True Blue" campaign at Windsor, or the Dunfield project with Dundalk, or the excellent relations engendered both with Derry City and clubs across the border in the Setanta.
As for Donegal Celtic, assuming they were excluded from the old B Division for the reasons you imply, that is disgraceful. But can you not even acknowledge that that was 180 degrees contrary to their recent admission to the Carnegie Premier League, despite their ground being clearly not up to the standard required of other clubs?
The point surely must be that even if they haven't gone away completely, the bigots and neanderthals you cite no longer hold sway in NI soccer anything like the way they once did. And your harping on about past grievances, since rectified, is as unreasonable, indeed prejudiced, as e.g. slamming modern day Germany on the basis that a rump of neo-Nazis still exists within that country.

* Interstingly, both these disgraceful practices have in the past on a previous incarnation of this board been condoned by as 'reasonable' a poster as SammyG.

Why do you, the person who started your post with accusations against me of "whataboutery", "assinine assumptions", "crass generalisations" and "extrapolations" etc bring SammyG into your reply to me? I am not Sammy, he does not speak for me, nor me for him; he is quite capable of speaking for himself.  "Physician Heal Thyself"

I will on this and indeed any future occasion decline your invite for a debate, because you are not capable of rational, reasonable debate. I could save you some time and actually write your reply to this post if you want, so predictable will it be?

Mind you don't fall from your high horse, there....

[Evil Genius]

Granted lads there is a gay rugby team set up. I wasn't aware until reading the posts that the founding member claims it is open to anyone (and i am still on about the team  ). However i don't see the reason why the Gay label should be put on the team. It is secregating the gay community and sending out a message that Gay people would prefer to be (how can i put this that it won't sound funny) Playing with each other  ( It didn't work). So they are actually contradicting themselves. Gay activist groups would claim they are being astrocised from society by other groups, this time it is actually them that are secluding themselves from the rest of society.

Notwithstanding that the "Gay label" is probably more an invention of others - esp the media - I think you miss the point of this team and its ethos. Team sports like rugby are notoriously homophobic. Therefore, any gays who might be interested in taking up the game are liable to be deterred. All this team seems to me to be saying is that if you should be gay and want to play rugby, then come along and join us, since we don't give a damn. Equally, we don't give a damn if you're straight.

Which is only the way it should be, imo.

[his holiness nb]

and certainly not enough to run to the Mods to "tout" you, as certain individuals on this Board are wont to do 

Off topic I know, but is there a function on here to see who reports what to the mods?
I see a few people have made comments like the above.

Just interested, I've been acccused myself previously of running to the mods on occasions where I actaully didnt.
Was just curious.

Incidentally I agree fully with your last post. Well said.

[Silky]

Granted lads there is a gay rugby team set up. I wasn't aware until reading the posts that the founding member claims it is open to anyone (and i am still on about the team  ). However i don't see the reason why the Gay label should be put on the team. It is secregating the gay community and sending out a message that Gay people would prefer to be (how can i put this that it won't sound funny) Playing with each other  ( It didn't work). So they are actually contradicting themselves. Gay activist groups would claim they are being astrocised from society by other groups, this time it is actually them that are secluding themselves from the rest of society.

Notwithstanding that the "Gay label" is probably more an invention of others - esp the media - I think you miss the point of this team and its ethos. Team sports like rugby are notoriously homophobic. Therefore, any gays who might be interested in taking up the game are liable to be deterred. All this team seems to me to be saying is that if you should be gay and want to play rugby, then come along and join us, since we don't give a damn. Equally, we don't give a damn if you're straight.

Which is only the way it should be, imo.

Seems fair enough to me.

[Tankie]

Why does something so basic have to be made a headline of in the North, when the gay rugby team was setup in Dublin i don't even remember it getting a mention. sure they are even hosting the gay world cup in Dublin and not a mention!

It should be interesting when we play them in a few weeks tho!

[his holiness nb]

Why does something so basic have to be made a headline of in the North, when the gay rugby team was setup in Dublin i don't even remember it getting a mention. sure they are even hosting the gay world cup in Dublin and not a mention!

It should be interesting when we play them in a few weeks tho!

In fairness Tankie, the story is more about a well known politician objecting to the team.

I reckon the story is more so to show up the homphobia of Mr Poots than to have a go at the team itself.

If a well know politicial down here said the same about the Dublin team we would be having the same discussion.

[Bar None]

and certainly not enough to run to the Mods to "tout" you, as certain individuals on this Board are wont to do 

Off topic I know, but is there a function on here to see who reports what to the mods?
I see a few people have made comments like the above.

Just interested, I've been acccused myself previously of running to the mods on occasions where I actaully didnt.
Was just curious.

Incidentally I agree fully with your last post. Well said.

You really are something!

[his holiness nb]

Just interested, I've been acccused myself previously of running to the mods on occasions where I actaully didnt.
Was just curious.

Incidentally I agree fully with your last post. Well said.

You really are something!
[/quote]

??
Snowed Under I can only presume you have evidence to the contrary by that statement?