Man Utd Thread:

[magpie seanie]

Eric was the reason Utd won leagues, he was was also the reason why Utd were shite in Europe.

That's a commonly held untruth, probably due to Dunphy slating him at every opportunity. The reason United were "shite" in Europe in those days was because they couldn't field their full team. They had to put youth team players into their team due to restrictions that restricted the use of non English players. Cantona played in 3 European Cup campaigns. He played 16 games and scored 5 goals in a weakened team. One of those seasons (his last) United were pretty unlucky to lose a semi final to the eventual winners Dortmund - incidentally he told Ferguson he was retiring the day afterwards.

When I think about the lack of European Cups United have for a club their size this stupid rule and the air disaster come to mind. I've no doubt the club would have 2 or 3 more at least but for those two things.

I think Ferguson also contributed in the early days. He tried to out-think himself sometimes in European games instead of letting his lads off the leash. I think Liverpool in the 80s may have influenced him whereby they set out to kill the away leg and win at Anfield. But they had players that could do that. United were rawer at that stage and probably just needed to be let loose.

As for the foreigner rule, every club had to adhere to that, including the Italians, Spanish and Germans, so it was a level playing field. If they were allowed play foreigners who knows what they'd have won also.

Ferguson was regularly tactically found out in Europe; got a good few schoolings, not just from Barce, but from lesser teams also in how to pass and retain possession. Don't forget, he was damn lucky to win the 2 he did; Bayern outplayed them in '99, striking the post at one stage, while only for John Terry's slip and Anelka's petulance...

United were the best team and unbeaten in the 98/99 Champions League. They had to play the final without their central midfield pairing, arguably the two best central midfieders in Europe at that time, but got the goals late on to win it. Again in 2007/08 they were unbeaten in all games and I think they were the best side in the competition. Pretty misleading to say Ferguson was lucky to win two. Got to another 2 finals where they came up against one of the best club sides ever. Probably should have won more, a couple of semi final defeats where they underperformed strick in the memory. And you have to remember most of this is in the era where the competition is much harder to win, especially if you're chasing your own domestic title.

[johnnycool]

Eric was the reason Utd won leagues, he was was also the reason why Utd were shite in Europe.

That's a commonly held untruth, probably due to Dunphy slating him at every opportunity. The reason United were "shite" in Europe in those days was because they couldn't field their full team. They had to put youth team players into their team due to restrictions that restricted the use of non English players. Cantona played in 3 European Cup campaigns. He played 16 games and scored 5 goals in a weakened team. One of those seasons (his last) United were pretty unlucky to lose a semi final to the eventual winners Dortmund - incidentally he told Ferguson he was retiring the day afterwards.

When I think about the lack of European Cups United have for a club their size this stupid rule and the air disaster come to mind. I've no doubt the club would have 2 or 3 more at least but for those two things.

I think Ferguson also contributed in the early days. He tried to out-think himself sometimes in European games instead of letting his lads off the leash. I think Liverpool in the 80s may have influenced him whereby they set out to kill the away leg and win at Anfield. But they had players that could do that. United were rawer at that stage and probably just needed to be let loose.

As for the foreigner rule, every club had to adhere to that, including the Italians, Spanish and Germans, so it was a level playing field. If they were allowed play foreigners who knows what they'd have won also.

I agree with you on Liverpool's approach in the 80's. United weren't set up to do that, it's not in the clubs DNA and Ferguson was wrong to approach some games that way. The Monaco quarter final and Dortmund semi final were lost by playing it too cagey but I think that's because he didn't have his full array of talent available.

Regarding the foreigner rule - the point is how would Liverpool have coped in the late 70's/early 80's if that rule was in place? It had a far bigger impact on English teams because Scottish and Welsh players were counted as foreigners and with no functioning league in Ireland, classifying Irish players as foreign was also fairly unfair. The impact on teams from the other big leagues was minor. Practically zero.

Are you sure about that?

I thought English teams could count on Scots and Welsh lads as "home country" players or something like that owing to them holding the same passport.

I could be wrong.

[From the Bunker]

Eric was the reason Utd won leagues, he was was also the reason why Utd were shite in Europe.

That's a commonly held untruth, probably due to Dunphy slating him at every opportunity. The reason United were "shite" in Europe in those days was because they couldn't field their full team. They had to put youth team players into their team due to restrictions that restricted the use of non English players. Cantona played in 3 European Cup campaigns. He played 16 games and scored 5 goals in a weakened team. One of those seasons (his last) United were pretty unlucky to lose a semi final to the eventual winners Dortmund - incidentally he told Ferguson he was retiring the day afterwards.

When I think about the lack of European Cups United have for a club their size this stupid rule and the air disaster come to mind. I've no doubt the club would have 2 or 3 more at least but for those two things.

I think Ferguson also contributed in the early days. He tried to out-think himself sometimes in European games instead of letting his lads off the leash. I think Liverpool in the 80s may have influenced him whereby they set out to kill the away leg and win at Anfield. But they had players that could do that. United were rawer at that stage and probably just needed to be let loose.

As for the foreigner rule, every club had to adhere to that, including the Italians, Spanish and Germans, so it was a level playing field. If they were allowed play foreigners who knows what they'd have won also.

I agree with you on Liverpool's approach in the 80's. United weren't set up to do that, it's not in the clubs DNA and Ferguson was wrong to approach some games that way. The Monaco quarter final and Dortmund semi final were lost by playing it too cagey but I think that's because he didn't have his full array of talent available.

Regarding the foreigner rule - the point is how would Liverpool have coped in the late 70's/early 80's if that rule was in place? It had a far bigger impact on English teams because Scottish and Welsh players were counted as foreigners and with no functioning league in Ireland, classifying Irish players as foreign was also fairly unfair. The impact on teams from the other big leagues was minor. Practically zero.

Are you sure about that?

I thought English teams could count on Scots and Welsh lads as "home country" players or something like that owing to them holding the same passport.

I could be wrong.

If the player (like Giggs) came through the youths system or where there a long time they were eligible (Irwin). The Rule made fine players out of the class of '92 as they were getting full high end European games before they were getting anything in the Premiership.

[gallsman]

United were the best team and unbeaten in the 98/99 Champions League. They had to play the final without their central midfield pairing, arguably the two best central midfieders in Europe at that time, but got the goals late on to win it. Again in 2007/08 they were unbeaten in all games and I think they were the best side in the competition. Pretty misleading to say Ferguson was lucky to win two. Got to another 2 finals where they came up against one of the best club sides ever. Probably should have won more, a couple of semi final defeats where they underperformed strick in the memory. And you have to remember most of this is in the era where the competition is much harder to win, especially if you're chasing your own domestic title.

Well, should they win the Europa League they might be in with a shout next year given we know they'll not be chasing their domestic league any time soon. 

[general]

Group L: Man Utd, Astana, Partizan, AZ Alkmaar

[magpie seanie]

Eric was the reason Utd won leagues, he was was also the reason why Utd were shite in Europe.

That's a commonly held untruth, probably due to Dunphy slating him at every opportunity. The reason United were "shite" in Europe in those days was because they couldn't field their full team. They had to put youth team players into their team due to restrictions that restricted the use of non English players. Cantona played in 3 European Cup campaigns. He played 16 games and scored 5 goals in a weakened team. One of those seasons (his last) United were pretty unlucky to lose a semi final to the eventual winners Dortmund - incidentally he told Ferguson he was retiring the day afterwards.

When I think about the lack of European Cups United have for a club their size this stupid rule and the air disaster come to mind. I've no doubt the club would have 2 or 3 more at least but for those two things.

I think Ferguson also contributed in the early days. He tried to out-think himself sometimes in European games instead of letting his lads off the leash. I think Liverpool in the 80s may have influenced him whereby they set out to kill the away leg and win at Anfield. But they had players that could do that. United were rawer at that stage and probably just needed to be let loose.

As for the foreigner rule, every club had to adhere to that, including the Italians, Spanish and Germans, so it was a level playing field. If they were allowed play foreigners who knows what they'd have won also.

I agree with you on Liverpool's approach in the 80's. United weren't set up to do that, it's not in the clubs DNA and Ferguson was wrong to approach some games that way. The Monaco quarter final and Dortmund semi final were lost by playing it too cagey but I think that's because he didn't have his full array of talent available.

Regarding the foreigner rule - the point is how would Liverpool have coped in the late 70's/early 80's if that rule was in place? It had a far bigger impact on English teams because Scottish and Welsh players were counted as foreigners and with no functioning league in Ireland, classifying Irish players as foreign was also fairly unfair. The impact on teams from the other big leagues was minor. Practically zero.

Are you sure about that?

I thought English teams could count on Scots and Welsh lads as "home country" players or something like that owing to them holding the same passport.

I could be wrong.

If the player (like Giggs) came through the youths system or where there a long time they were eligible (Irwin). The Rule made fine players out of the class of '92 as they were getting full high end European games before they were getting anything in the Premiership.

They were known as "assimilated players" and there was a limit on them also from what I remember.

[Boycey]

Without googling can anyone tell me the midfield that played for United in that 99 final and the positions they played in....

Scary stuff 

[magpie seanie]

Without googling can anyone tell me the midfield that played for United in that 99 final and the positions they played in....

Scary stuff 

Was it Giggs on the right, Beckham and Butt in the centre and Blomqvist on the left? Might have one wrong there.

[magpie seanie]

That was it alright. A bit different from Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs.

[magpie seanie]

Match stats from that game tell a different story that most would believe:


Statistic

Manchester United Bayern Munich

Goals scored  2 1 
Total shots  15 15 
Shots on target  9 7 
Ball possession  53% 47% 
Corner kicks  12 7 
Fouls committed  11 10 
Offsides  6 8 
Yellow cards  0 1 
Red cards  0 0 


United with more shots on target and possession.

[trailer]

Group L: Man Utd, Astana, Partizan, AZ Alkmaar

Holy shit. I don't think I've heard of these teams. Partizan? as in Partizan Belgrade?

[Keyser soze]

Group L: Man Utd, Astana, Partizan, AZ Alkmaar

Holy shit. I don't think I've heard of these teams. Partizan? as in Partizan Belgrade?

Astana capital of Kazakhstan

[gallsman]

Group L: Man Utd, Astana, Partizan, AZ Alkmaar

Holy shit. I don't think I've heard of these teams. Partizan? as in Partizan Belgrade?

Yeah, team of part time tilers. The competition across the city at Red Star are plumbers.

[BennyCake]

Eric was the reason Utd won leagues, he was was also the reason why Utd were shite in Europe.

That's a commonly held untruth, probably due to Dunphy slating him at every opportunity. The reason United were "shite" in Europe in those days was because they couldn't field their full team. They had to put youth team players into their team due to restrictions that restricted the use of non English players. Cantona played in 3 European Cup campaigns. He played 16 games and scored 5 goals in a weakened team. One of those seasons (his last) United were pretty unlucky to lose a semi final to the eventual winners Dortmund - incidentally he told Ferguson he was retiring the day afterwards.

When I think about the lack of European Cups United have for a club their size this stupid rule and the air disaster come to mind. I've no doubt the club would have 2 or 3 more at least but for those two things.

I think Ferguson also contributed in the early days. He tried to out-think himself sometimes in European games instead of letting his lads off the leash. I think Liverpool in the 80s may have influenced him whereby they set out to kill the away leg and win at Anfield. But they had players that could do that. United were rawer at that stage and probably just needed to be let loose.

As for the foreigner rule, every club had to adhere to that, including the Italians, Spanish and Germans, so it was a level playing field. If they were allowed play foreigners who knows what they'd have won also.

Ferguson was regularly tactically found out in Europe; got a good few schoolings, not just from Barce, but from lesser teams also in how to pass and retain possession. Don't forget, he was damn lucky to win the 2 he did; Bayern outplayed them in '99, striking the post at one stage, while only for John Terry's slip and Anelka's petulance...

The way the finals was eventually won was somewhat fortunate, but as someone said, they were the best teams in 99 and 08, and went through the CL campaign unbeaten.

It wasn't really the semi defeats that annoy me (97, 02). 2004 v Porto and 2010 collapse v Bayern annoys more, as they were two years were the path was a lot easier than previous years.

[gallsman]

Inter annihilated that Bayern team having scraped past a Barca team that had to travel to Milan and back via bus. United wouldnt have had a hope that year.