Jarlath Burns on GAA and Academic Selection

[sheamy]

O'Neill's theory, if it indeed deserves that title, is horseshit. Plain and simple.

There is little correlation between academic ability and the ability to teach. This 2.1 2.2 nonsense is not relevant.

Some of the brightest minds and most able people in society couldn't teach a dog to shit. The ability to understand a concept and take it further and expand it isn't the same ability as being able to convey a basic concept in a way children can understand.

Anything, I think it's a wind-up anyway as there's so many flaws in the 'theory'.

[sheamy]

Do you not think that there has been a determined run down of the vocational football sector by active recruitment of schools to the colleges sector following the last review of the organisation of schools and college football?

Do you think there should be a distinct vocational football sector? If so, why?

[saffron sam2]

O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I  simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.

Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.

Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.

Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.

[sheamy]

Do you not think that there has been a determined run down of the vocational football sector by active recruitment of schools to the colleges sector following the last review of the organisation of schools and college football?

Do you think there should be a distinct vocational football sector? If so, why?

I have no strong feelings either way but there has always been a frosty relationship between the sectors and there appears to have been a determination to undermine the vocational sector by attracting  schools away from it to the colleges.

If there has been then it has to stop. I took that for Burns' article although it has been kinda lost with the silliness on here.

[Hurler on the Bitch]

With hindsight, the grammars (and secondarys) in the North have at least allowed many - especially nationalists - to advance through the class system and better themselves - helped of course by free education etc. However, when you see how the class system in the 26 Counties has been allowed to thrive through the two-tied education system, there really is a case to be answered. Old school ties etc - just look at the make-up of the Irish rugby team (no comprehensive boys here!). The rich and poor gap which sees a virtual apartheid in the Republic is so evident in politics, sport and business. The old notion of the PIG-OWNING class of Irish Catholic society looking after its own thrives in education. It is as blantant as the state school sector in the North.. I think it was 1971 that Belfast Model (ie the Shankill Road pupils) won the rugby schools cup and the whole "establishment"gasped in horror. Fair play to Jarlath - loved the line about the "rich and the thick" always having a way into grammars through money!! - Such people always stood out a mile..

[trileacman]

With hindsight, the grammars (and secondarys) in the North have at least allowed many - especially nationalists - to advance through the class system and better themselves - helped of course by free education etc. However, when you see how the class system in the 26 Counties has been allowed to thrive through the two-tied education system, there really is a case to be answered. Old school ties etc - just look at the make-up of the Irish rugby team (no comprehensive boys here!). The rich and poor gap which sees a virtual apartheid in the Republic is so evident in politics, sport and business. The old notion of the PIG-OWNING class of Irish Catholic society looking after its own thrives in education. It is as blantant as the state school sector in the North.. I think it was 1971 that Belfast Model (ie the Shankill Road pupils) won the rugby schools cup and the whole "establishment"gasped in horror. Fair play to Jarlath - loved the line about the "rich and the thick" always having a way into grammars through money!! - Such people always stood out a mile..

You're obsessed with owning pigs.

[saffron sam2]

Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.

Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.

Is egomania a prerequisite to becoming a principal or is it an added bonus or developed on the job or part of the PQH qualification?

You appear to have misunderstood. One who devotes his / her life to teaching in a grammar, yet moves to a secondary as principal is unlikely to have undergone a Damascus-like conversion to non-selective education. Such an individual is most likely to be motivated by financial and / or egotistical reasons.


Still, such an individual will be infinitely more capable than his / her underlings.

[Orchardman]

O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I  simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.

Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.

Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.

Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.

What?? I'm only qualified a couple of years, and have worked in both grammar and secondary so i'm sure i have a better idea than most. Little difference in terms of teaching. Grammar schools have no way of picking up the so called best teachers. When most teachers graduate 22-24 out of college, it's only when they then go on to work in a school over the next 3-4 years that they become either the great teacher they are, or a brutal teacher. Have seen some serious dungbag teachers, people who are in for all the wrong reasons, and these people are in both sectors. But there is also a lot more brilliant teachers in both sectors.

Grammar teachers are lucky that they generally have less problems to deal with though

[saffron sam2]

O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I  simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.

Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.

Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.

Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.

What?? I'm only qualified a couple of years, and have worked in both grammar and secondary so i'm sure i have a better idea than most. Little difference in terms of teaching. Grammar schools have no way of picking up the so called best teachers. When most teachers graduate 22-24 out of college, it's only when they then go on to work in a school over the next 3-4 years that they become either the great teacher they are, or a brutal teacher. Have seen some serious dungbag teachers, people who are in for all the wrong reasons, and these people are in both sectors. But there is also a lot more brilliant teachers in both sectors.

Grammar teachers are lucky that they generally have less problems to deal with though

Two simple questions then expert.

You are offered two permanent jobs, one in a grammar school, one in a secondary.

Which do you choose?

Pourquoi?

QED

[Milltown Row2]

Quick question.

How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?

[Orchardman]

O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I  simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.

Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.

Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.

Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.

What?? I'm only qualified a couple of years, and have worked in both grammar and secondary so i'm sure i have a better idea than most. Little difference in terms of teaching. Grammar schools have no way of picking up the so called best teachers. When most teachers graduate 22-24 out of college, it's only when they then go on to work in a school over the next 3-4 years that they become either the great teacher they are, or a brutal teacher. Have seen some serious dungbag teachers, people who are in for all the wrong reasons, and these people are in both sectors. But there is also a lot more brilliant teachers in both sectors.

Grammar teachers are lucky that they generally have less problems to deal with though

Two simple questions then expert.

You are offered two permanent jobs, one in a grammar school, one in a secondary.

Which do you choose?

Pourquoi?

QED

Hand on heart, from the one's I have experienced, i'd choose the secondary. I'm sure if there was one of each from other schools throughout the country, i'd maybe choose grammar, but that proves the value of not making general sweeping statements, like some people claimed O'Neill did ( though i'm sure he was only on the wind up)

By the way, i'm no expert, for sure there are people here who seem to know alot more about their grammar schools and systems than I do. But having been in both within the last 2 years I can offer a current view from both. But again, every school if different

[Orchardman]

Quick question.

How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?

Good question, i don't have any kids yet. I know a lot of secondary teachers wilh their children at the same school, handy i suppose. But not ideal to be teaching them yourself. Also know plenty who have sent them to local grammar, 50/50 i guess

[haranguerer]

Christ lads, it was an article by Jarlath Burns. Bad enough taking it seriously when it is football related, but when its not??!!

[Orchardman]

Christ lads, it was an article by Jarlath Burns. Bad enough taking it seriously when it is football related, but when its not??!!

I know lad, but since the 2nd page it seems to have moved mostly on to a grammar/ secondary debate and standard of teaching. Maybe we should get back to the gaa. As someone said, the vocational schools was never that strong in armagh, and since bessbrook and cross moved to the colleges around 5 years ago, it's really weak now. Eventually the best thing probably is to combine them all, there already is A,B,and C divisions in the colleges

[Orchardman]

Quick question.

How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?

Good question, i don't have any kids yet. I know a lot of secondary teachers wilh their children at the same school, handy i suppose. But not ideal to be teaching them yourself. Also know plenty who have sent them to local grammar, 50/50 i guess

50/50? Surely not as many as that?

I'm probably wrong about that alright, it was just a figure of the top of my head from other teachers I know with kids.