Jarlath Burns on GAA and Academic Selection

[ONeill]

The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.

The best teachers teach in every school.

The most academically adept teachers teach in grammars. Secondary schools would take on anyone in that regard. Secondary schools have the best pastoral and discipline specialists. Sweeping but an opinion.

And one you are entitled to have because you have made it clear that it is your opinion and not fact.  That is the problem with the article which as roused such unnecessary attacks on its author.  It is merely opinion and because it is contain factual errors and is built on perceptions it misses an opportunity.

BTW I would disagree with your opinion, I think that the best post primary teachers are those who have a sound educational basis for their specialist subject, have real concern for their students and who are able to relate to their students as valued individuals.  They are found in all types of schools, they are not produced by training colleges or universities but a nurtured in schools which try to espouse the same values.  Just like in teaching sometimes it happens and some times the required change does not occur for reasons outside the control of the school.

Looking back on my schooling, I learned more from those who were the opposite of your ideal teacher. I can picture one who was socially awkward, had little pastoral expertise, showed no awareness of individual development but if you simply wanted to learn he was gold dust. I'd imagine Lumen Christi would employ him 100 times over someone with limited subject knowledge but excellent pastoral skill.

[ONeill]

The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.

The best teachers teach in every school.

The most academically adept teachers teach in grammars. Secondary schools would take on anyone in that regard. Secondary schools have the best pastoral and discipline specialists. Sweeping but an opinion.

The best teachers will be found in all schools, and can be well recognised. One of my science teachers (whom oddly enough now teaches at Omagh CBS) was well renowned for being able to get the best out of all her students, even those with little academic ability, with nearly all getting C's or above at GCSE. Similarly those in grammar schools should be able par course to get every student C or above in the primary subject they teach (and a sh*t load of A's and A*s) with the very odd exception. However poorer teachers will be more exposed in a non-grammar environment if there is a pattern in results which shows few students getting C's or above at GCSEs and all others generally getting D's, E's, F's etc. especially compared to other teachers who can get C's and above in their subjects with the same pupils. Such teachers in grammars can mask their problems more easily. Whereas with a more mediocre teacher the more able students in the main should still be able to get on with the work and pass because of their own abilities and interests, some other students will more easily have the finger pointed at them that they are simply not putting enough effort in or are just not up to it first rather than asking wherever the teacher needs to update or change his or her method of teaching their students. A good teacher should be able to communicate their passion in the subject taught to their students to make them interested and make the effort in the first place.

It's no surprise that private tutors hired by parents for their child's 11 plus (and the nowadays relevant tests) coaching tend to be more from secondary schools rather than grammars (or at least those who have taught solely in grammars), simply because the secondary school teacher is more likely to have experience in helping bring average and below average students to above average levels as opposed to those who have taught only in grammars; though of course there are a few exceptions.

Sorry - I can't make head nor tail of that, even the first sentence.

[glens abu]

If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.

+1

Or pushing party policy.

Exactly, look who posted the article.

Posted it because it was an article in Gaelic Life by a very prominent GAA man and also thought it would be of interest to those who have an opinion regarding academic selection in the North.No other reason.

[NAG1]

That was my point on it Tony and didnt sit to well with me.

And on the Maghera thing is that still the case today? Welcoming lads for vocational courses because the can kick MacCrory ball?

[sheamy]

The article is supposed to be about the role the GAA has to play. To open it out into a wider debate means it'll go nowhere only over same old ground. You can argue merits of any system, but for me, the idea that you would have a separate gaelic games competitions based on academic selection criteria is downright f**king mental and fairly repugnant.

I'm not fully briefed on the history of this and the steps that Ulster Colleges GAA have taken to break this down. Would welcome any insight anyone can give into this? Is it no longer the case and are the divisional competitions now fully integrated so to speak based on team standard? Or is it just now the case that because grammar schools tend to have a wider catchment area that they dominate the 'A' competitions.

The existence of a vocational schools sports sector throughout Ireland is puzzling to me.

[sheamy]

That was my point on it Tony and didnt sit to well with me.

And on the Maghera thing is that still the case today? Welcoming lads for vocational courses because the can kick MacCrory ball?

What relevance does that have to anything? This is exactly the attitude Burns is talking about.

[sheamy]

The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.

horseshit

[saffron sam2]

The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.

horseshit

ONeill is 100% correct. Just look at the difference in GCSE and A Level results.

[ONeill]

Halve the secondary school teachers can't even write right or speak right.

[trileacman]

From my perspective the ROI education sector is failing pretty miserably tbh. Not in terms of the intelligence of its students but in terms of structure, ages and the prevalence of a "private" schooling system. If you were to look at the student profile of the high CAO point courses I'd say up to 50% of them would have done at least a years study at a fee paying school.

To me, if you were unable to pay for fee-paying schools or fell by the wayside at the wrong time it would severely affect your chances of getting into the higher demand CAO courses.

To me that is a more unfair system than 1 were you are rewarded for passing aptitude tests (although 11 is very young). The annoying thing about this thread is that Burns is now just another party hack pushing party line. He would drop this issue the minute it suited him and although he is opposed to academic selection it would seem that the other kinds of selection and social exclusion that occur are of no importance to him.

In short what I'm saying is that the current system is far from perfect but it needs to be replaced by a better model, not a different one that is equally as flawed.

[ziggy90]

Halve the secondary school teachers can't even write right or speak right.

What are you going to with them after that? Quarter them?

[ONeill]

Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.

[FermGael]

O'Neill you forgot Applied Ict and Business studies 

[ziggy90]

Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.

I think your previous post should have read halve half of.

[ONeill]

Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.

I think your previous post should have read halve half of.

Aye. It should of.