Jarlath Burns on GAA and Academic Selection

[ziggy90]

Good ladeen.

[Sandy Hill]

In my opinion, none of the main parties in the North are willing to fully address the problems there are in education as they are mostly in either one of two camps - either scrap all grammars and keep all students together until 16 regardless, or keep things as they are, based on ideology and individual interest rather than putting education in the bigger context of personal and community development, employer needs and economic structuring.

I think you have the right idea.  Education is just another weapon of the politician. 

We do need serious change in education but we shouldn't be following failed comprehensive systems like those in the UK and RoI.  There is a serious argument for returning to the system of the 50s when the tripartite system was introduced to meet the needs of the economy, industry and students' skills and aptitudes.  We can look to the German's who put greater value on the technical and the engineer, their technical colleges feed the economic requirements of the country.  Here we put too much value on the traditional professions.  We have too many still looking to law, accountancy, medicine, etc as being the pinnacle of career achievement.  None of these professions will drag this country into the future.  We need to begin with a clean sheet for education planning which everyone can agree to buy into.  We need to plan a new system which will put priority on literacy and numeracy and then give children at 14 the option to take equally recognised routes which meet their skills and aptitudes.

Unfortunately, this will never happen, there are too many vested interests in a small place like N.Ireland to allow the best to be done for our children.

Ahem!

[Larry Duff]

Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.

Where have these teachers come from?

The current selection process allows for a thick child to be coached to get a C-D grade, which most grammars schools are happy to accept to boost their numbers.
These thick children struggle to keep up with the work being set by these super grammar school teachers (who are unable to develop any below average student) and the child will leave with pretty mediocre A Levels in some of the "less traditional" subjects. (Perhaps only progressing to A Levels because of their value to the MacCrory team)
These results will rule them out of progresing to study to join an "elite" profession as law or medicine but they will pursue a degree in some pointless subject just to say they're at university. (Some GAA ability will probably get them into their chosen college)
They'll graduate with a 3 or 2:2 but with no qualifications or skills that are of use to most potential employers.
What happens them now that they've reached the end of this education process started by the delusions of their parents?

Simple - They go to England to do a PGCE and return a year later to a teaching job. (GAA ability will probably mean this will be in the perceived elite profession of grammar school teacher)

[ONeill]

All teachers, even those with a specialism in Sums or Computers, should be made to complete an essay before the interview. 'What I Did Last Summer' or something like that should be enough to gauge competence. It might end up with ICT being taught by a more literate yet less Windows-savvy teacher but what the hell.

[Rawhide]

Oh there are a few elite educational snobs on this thread

[armaghniac]

'What I Did Last Summer' or something like that should be enough to gauge competence.

What if they spent the summer installing a triple boot of 64 bit Linux, WIndows server and Mac X Lion on a homemade quad processor system? Would they still be literate?

Oh there are a few elite educational snobs on this thread

or
Oh, there are a few educational snobs in this thread.

[ONeill]

'What I Did Last Summer' or something like that should be enough to gauge competence.

What if they spent the summer installing a triple boot of 64 bit Linux, WIndows server and Mac X Lion on a homemade quad processor system? Would they still be literate?

The whole effin summer?

[Sandino]

Some of the worst teachers also teach in Grammar Schools and some of the most inept, incompetent teachers I have ever met worked/work in Grammar Schools. That's not even taking in the lazy, drunken and mentally unbalanced members of staff.

The elitist arrogance being shown on this tread epitomises all that is sad in our education system. Some posters have dropped in my estimation with silly generalisations and nasty comments.

I think a lot of posters do not have children at a Grammar School yet.

[Larry Duff]

Some of the worst teachers also teach in Grammar Schools and some of the most inept, incompetent teachers I have ever met worked/work in Grammar Schools. That's not even taking in the lazy, drunken and mentally unbalanced members of staff.

The elitist arrogance being shown on this tread epitomises all that is sad in our education system. Some posters have dropped in my estimation with silly generalisations and nasty comments.
I think a lot of posters do not have children at a Grammar School yet.

Think you're being a bit hard on O'Neill there. His comments seem to be a piss take - it's just not as obvious when he's not being Olly.

[saffron sam2]

Simple - They go to England to do a PGCE and return a year later to a teaching job. (GAA ability will probably mean this will be in the perceived elite profession of grammar school teacher)

Why do you use the word perceived? You have yet to produce any evidence to disprove ONeill's theory.

[ONeill]

Some of the worst teachers also teach in Grammar Schools and some of the most inept, incompetent teachers I have ever met worked/work in Grammar Schools. That's not even taking in the lazy, drunken and mentally unbalanced members of staff.

The elitist arrogance being shown on this tread epitomises all that is sad in our education system. Some posters have dropped in my estimation with silly generalisations and nasty comments.

I think a lot of posters do not have children at a Grammar School yet.

I assume you failed your O Levels. Secondary schools are full of teachers who are unemployable in any other sector. The majority, as someone stated, have 2:2s or even worse. There's no way I'd send my son or daughter to a secondary school to be taught by someone who was probably a secondary school pupil a few years ago. I acknowledge there may be some relatively educated secondary school teachers who could cut the mustard in a grammar. They probably got a job there first and just didn't want to apply out.

In fact, I know a very well known secondary school where half the staff are ex-pupils. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

[Larry Duff]

Simple - They go to England to do a PGCE and return a year later to a teaching job. (GAA ability will probably mean this will be in the perceived elite profession of grammar school teacher)

Why do you use the word perceived? You have yet to produce any evidence to disprove ONeill's theory.

O'Neills theory was that grammar school teachers are best. That's definitely debatable but I think its obvious that it certainly isn't an elite profession.

[armaghniac]

Grammar school teachers are dealing with a more able and more motivated class of pupil and can get reasonable outcomes without any great pedagogy.
There is a broader problem in society that teaching is not especially valued and standards have declined in many cases.

[Larry Duff]

Grammar school teachers are dealing with a more able and more motivated class of pupil and can get reasonable outcomes without any great pedagogy.
There is a broader problem in society that teaching is not especially valued and standards have declined in many cases.

Agree with most of that with the exception that teaching is not valued by society, in fact I think the teaching profession is held in far too high a regard. If someone possess a high level of expertise in their chosen field then they will use this skill to create or manage a profitable enterprise which will in turn benefit others and help boost the economy. However if they only have a basic theoretic knowledge of the subject and lack the ability or drive to make something of this knowledge then they become a teacher.

[Sandino]

O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I  simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.