Paddy O'Rourke Out!

[whitegoodman]

Dublin among the 'cream of the crop'..tell us another one, go on, one more. Please.
This is a ridiculous thread.
Maybe POR was to blame for the Japanese earthquake and subsequent tsunami too.

Dublin were beaten by a point by the All Ireland champions in the AISF and sit top of Division 1.

Your point is?

And ur point is?

Down bt kerry and got bt by a point by cork last year.  Does that mean they are on the same level as Cork and Kerry? No
Kildare were bt by Down by a point.  Does that mean they are on the same level as Cork and Kerry?  No

IMO none of these 3 teams are at the level of Cork or Kerry and until they win the All Ireland none of them will be.  Its been over 15 years since either Dublin or Down won the All Ireland and until they show they are capable of closing out a game of that magnitude again, they will remain with the rest of the also rans.

As for being top of the league in the middle of March............il give ya nothing for that, dont think Conor, Jack or even Mickey for that matter would either.

[whitegoodman]

4)  Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match.  Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?

What ever else that can be fired up at O'Rourke, not have the players behind him is not one of them. I know a couple of Armagh posters have commented that the players don't respect him but I'd take that with a pinch of salt because, as you have said, they do keep fighting to the end of a match.
I still think a bit of perspective has to brought to this debate. To read some of the posts on here you'd swear Armagh were languishing in Division 3. Armagh haven't played Division 1 football in quite a few years, POR and these players "who are not good enough" have taken Armagh into the top division and (fingers crossed) will stay there for next year. Last year's defeat by Monaghan was very disappointing but aside from that results have not been bad.
I agree that our forward play has to improve and it is only right that we complain about that but the overall situation is not as bad as some are making it out to be.

County footballers - particularly those from previously successful teams - are a very proud animal. the very least i'd expect from our county team is that they'd battle, scrap and fight to the bitter end. I wouldn't give a flying fcuk who they were if i thought they lacked that. to lay that as a credit token at por's table is quite a stretch.

I think ur being very naive if u think in this day and age county footballers give their all and dont kick up a fuss if they are not happy with the managment.  You just have to look at events down in Limerick and Cork last year and Fermanagh to a lessor extent this year to see that.

[Throw ball]

There seem to be a terrible lot of Down men on this thread who seem to know alot about Armagh footballers. Maybe we should have picked one of them as manager.

[Brick Tamlin]

Im sorry but its just tiresome and all too easy to hit the easy target and blame POR for any/all of Armaghs problems. I mean would you credit the man with anything.
At the end of the day alot of apple-munching folk on here and elsewhere have never and will never accepted him or warmed to him because basicaly he is a Down man through and through and a proud one at that.
Put the hatred and bullshit to one side and look at the thing properly and objectively.
You can keep your club experiences and underage successes, they really count for jack shit when your playing intercounty senior football in the ulster and all-ireland series agains the best and all the potential in the world also means dick unless you deliver it (we in Down are used to that one). Some of your players are excellent but some are also shite. Your current management team has faults like every other one but by f**k ye can be guaranteed that they are doing their level best to move Armagh football forward. They were chosen to do a job and im sure they will be the first to hold the hand up if it doesnt go their way and make mistakes but bitching on here and bumming and blowing about getting POR out is futile. Support yer team, support your county. Could be worse, ye could be from fermanagh.

[lawnseed]

Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.

If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.

I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad.  Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree.  All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:

P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final.  All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity  Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner,  Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.

Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree.  In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country.  Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago

Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI.  However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute

add playing for ireland v oz to this list for mc donell, mckever, clarke,donaghey

[gander]

Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.

If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.

I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad.  Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree.  All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:

P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final.  All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity  Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner,  Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.

Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree.  In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country.  Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago

Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI.  However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute

add playing for ireland v oz to this list for mc donell, mckever, clarke,donaghey

a few of them also have ulster medals at U21 and Minor

[mackers]

Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.

If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.

I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad.  Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree.  All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:

P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final.  All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity  Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner,  Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.

Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree.  In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country.  Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago

Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI.  However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute

Excellent post!
The only bit I'd disagree with is the last sentence. I do feel that we are a top 8 team (maybe that's a reflection on what else is out there). We are not close to Cork and Kerry and the Dubs but if our forwards started to play with more cohesion then we would be closer. There's a fair degree of pedigree in the set up but it's also there in a number of counties so that's only really a starting point.

[David McKeown]

Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.

If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.

I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad.  Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree.  All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:

P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final.  All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity  Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner,  Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.

Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree.  In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country.  Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago

Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI.  However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute

Excellent post!
The only bit I'd disagree with is the last sentence. I do feel that we are a top 8 team (maybe that's a reflection on what else is out there). We are not close to Cork and Kerry and the Dubs but if our forwards started to play with more cohesion then we would be closer. There's a fair degree of pedigree in the set up but it's also there in a number of counties so that's only really a starting point.

I missed out a lot of medals there it was just a rough guide to the quality of player available to Armagh at the minute.  Despite this abundance of talent I would expect the following counties to beat us in the games that counted in the championship:

Kerry
Cork
Tyrone
Dublin
Kildare
Down

I would also not be confident of beating the following unless we were playing well:

Derry
Monaghan
Meath
Mayo

Its interesting to note that paddy power have us at 12th favourites for the All Ireland at 40-1

To have the level of talent available that we currently do and to be so far adrift on the top teams in for me down to one thing and one thing only, poor management. I take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do, so the question has to be asked why are we not competitive against the top sides

[rrhf]

I agree with David Mc Keown on this.  I am against outside managers, and I feel Paddy O Rourke would genuinely give 100% to anything but I have a feeling that Armagh are not capitalizing on the experience that winning an ai can bring to a county.  When a county has an outside manager and Guys such as Mc Geeney, Grimley, Mc Nulty, J Kernan are outside the loop then theres something wrong somewhere.  Joe Kernan would be a much superior option to O Rourke yet he would not be acceptable to an awful lot.  To me Brian mc Alinden is a proven team builder as well 

[thewobbler]

I take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do

is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.

[NP 76]

[Well said Wobbler couldnt agree more

[DuffleKing]

Down men in agreement about armagh's lack of quality shocker.....

[NP 76]

Brave few Armagh ones agreeing also about their lack of quality up front

[David McKeown]

I take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do

is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.

Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest.  Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong

[Groucho]

I take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do

is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.

Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest.  Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong

Armagh would struggle to beat any of the teams in bold......so bang goes your argument
PS....football didn't start in 2000 either