Paddy O'Rourke Out!

[mountainboii]

I wouldn't want POR within loudspeaker range of a Down team again, but I have to say Armagh fans just won't accept that their current team just isn't good enough.

Isn't it possible that the players and the management are not good enough?

[thewobbler]

Of course it is AFS.

In terms of personnel, Armagh have enough defensive strength and footballing nous to be competitive this year, but don't have the raw talent to win anything. Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.

It's markedly different to what Down went through with POR. We had raw talent, but no defensive strength and possibly even less footballing nous. What Down needed (and didn't get until James arrived) was someone to organise the team to be difficult to beat. POR wasn't that man for Down.

I'm really though not sure what any manager could deliver for Armagh. There's potentially a lot to be said for going back to Joe Kernan's high diagonal ball system, to at least give the team a demonstrative game plan. But whoever manages Armagh wouldn't have the ball striking prowess (O'Rourke, McGeeney, McEntee, McGrane) that Joe Kernan enjoyed. The logical alternative is to play through the half-forward line, but it's not being overly critical to suggest that Armagh just don't have the resources in that line to run a gameplan through it.

[mackers]

I wouldn't want POR within loudspeaker range of a Down team again, but I have to say Armagh fans just won't accept that their current team just isn't good enough.

Isn't it possible that the players and the management are not good enough?

Not good enough for what but? We are not good enough to win Sam, even an eternal optimist like me knows that, but we are good enough to win Ulster if this team was set up properly.

[DuffleKing]

I wouldn't want POR within loudspeaker range of a Down team again, but I have to say Armagh fans just won't accept that their current team just isn't good enough.

Isn't it possible that the players and the management are not good enough?

Not good enough for what but? We are not good enough to win Sam, even an eternal optimist like me knows that, but we are good enough to win Ulster if this team was set up properly.

I agree, and in my darker moments i think they could even go beyond ulster.

[whitegoodman]

A couple of points

1)  Wobbler POR didnt inherit a good down team, like Armagh he inherited a down team that was in a huge transition fase.  Ageing stars like james, Linden, Greg McCartan and Brian Burns were well passed their prime and young bucks like coulter, doyle and walsh were barely out of nappies.  The worst thing he could have done was to reach the ulster final in his first year as it was a massive over achievement and expectations were that the boys in red in black were back.  In reality that team and half a dozen mid 30 year old players and half a dozen teenagers.  Down were not a good team under POR and dont think James or anyone else would have done much else with them at that stage.  It was a different story under ross carr when all of these players were beginning to come into their prime but that is for another day.  James inherited a potentially great team from Ross, POR didnt inherit a potentially great team from McGrath, he inherited a good minor team and a few all ireland winners who were well past their best.

2)  If Armagh win the ulster title which is a good possibility will POR get another year?  I actually think if they bt down they are in with a great shout.

3)  Who would you all want if he does go and and the basis that McGeeney is not an option.

4)  Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match.  Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?

[thewobbler]

I never said it was a good Down team he inherited whitegoodman. But that's all the more reason why they needed managed instead of motivated. Down's years under POR were all about "we're Down and we play football", instead of "we're going to be difficult to beat". And we suffered innumerable hidings as a result; games that were over as soon as the opposition put three scores in a row over the bar. The players just weren't set up or prepared to respond to an onslaught.

Armagh's situation under POR is completely different - there's a core of reasonably seasoned players who know how to stop the opposition playing, and as a result, will be competitive in every game. POR's challenge (or that of anyone who might replace him) is to get some creative flair and "gay abandon" into their attacking style, so that their defensive platform is maximised. But without natural playmakers, this is a thankless challenge. Even should Ronan Clarke return with the vivado of old, you still have to get the ball to him and Stevie. It's difficult to see who in the Armagh set-up can take on that role against limited opposition, let alone the cream of the pack.

[mackers]

4)  Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match.  Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?

What ever else that can be fired up at O'Rourke, not have the players behind him is not one of them. I know a couple of Armagh posters have commented that the players don't respect him but I'd take that with a pinch of salt because, as you have said, they do keep fighting to the end of a match.
I still think a bit of perspective has to brought to this debate. To read some of the posts on here you'd swear Armagh were languishing in Division 3. Armagh haven't played Division 1 football in quite a few years, POR and these players "who are not good enough" have taken Armagh into the top division and (fingers crossed) will stay there for next year. Last year's defeat by Monaghan was very disappointing but aside from that results have not been bad.
I agree that our forward play has to improve and it is only right that we complain about that but the overall situation is not as bad as some are making it out to be.

[naka]

[ Even should Ronan Clarke return with the vivado of old, you still have to get the ball to him and Stevie. It's difficult to see who in the Armagh set-up can take on that role against limited opposition, let alone the cream of the pack.
[/quote]
wobbler the only cream i see in the 32 counties competing for sam are dublin, kerry and cork, Armagh should be confident against anyone else, I for on expect them to beat down in May and having talked to one player yesterday his words were
" the only game we are interested in and fully focused on  is the down game, nothing else matters" i remember mc geeney saying something similiar years ago, the league means nothing .

[bennydorano]

I'm really though not sure what any manager could deliver for Armagh. There's potentially a lot to be said for going back to Joe Kernan's high diagonal ball system, to at least give the team a demonstrative game plan. But whoever manages Armagh wouldn't have the ball striking prowess (O'Rourke, McGeeney, McEntee, McGrane) that Joe Kernan enjoyed. The logical alternative is to play through the half-forward line, but it's not being overly critical to suggest that Armagh just don't have the resources in that line to run a gameplan through it.

We haven't the players to pass into the FF line? Heard it all now.

[Brick Tamlin]

Dublin among the 'cream of the crop'..tell us another one, go on, one more. Please.
This is a ridiculous thread.
Maybe POR was to blame for the Japanese earthquake and subsequent tsunami too.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Dublin among the 'cream of the crop'..tell us another one, go on, one more. Please.
This is a ridiculous thread.
Maybe POR was to blame for the Japanese earthquake and subsequent tsunami too.

Dublin were beaten by a point by the All Ireland champions in the AISF and sit top of Division 1.

Your point is?

[DuffleKing]

4)  Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match.  Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?

What ever else that can be fired up at O'Rourke, not have the players behind him is not one of them. I know a couple of Armagh posters have commented that the players don't respect him but I'd take that with a pinch of salt because, as you have said, they do keep fighting to the end of a match.
I still think a bit of perspective has to brought to this debate. To read some of the posts on here you'd swear Armagh were languishing in Division 3. Armagh haven't played Division 1 football in quite a few years, POR and these players "who are not good enough" have taken Armagh into the top division and (fingers crossed) will stay there for next year. Last year's defeat by Monaghan was very disappointing but aside from that results have not been bad.
I agree that our forward play has to improve and it is only right that we complain about that but the overall situation is not as bad as some are making it out to be.

County footballers - particularly those from previously successful teams - are a very proud animal. the very least i'd expect from our county team is that they'd battle, scrap and fight to the bitter end. I wouldn't give a flying fcuk who they were if i thought they lacked that. to lay that as a credit token at por's table is quite a stretch.

[mountainboii]

Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.

If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.

[David McKeown]

Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.

If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.

I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad.  Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree.  All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:

P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final.  All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity  Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner,  Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.

Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree.  In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country.  Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago

Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI.  However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute

[bennydorano]

Nippy played on the AI 21 winning team as well, also holder of Ulster club minor medal