The Many Faces of US Politics...

[easytiger95]

Interesting whitey - you didn't reply to my stats about the top 10 worse performing states and you're also basing a lot of your argument on Illinois and Michigan - front lines for the erosion of union power and the denuding of heavy manufacturing and industry - both of which are staple Republican policies.

[whitey]

Interesting whitey - you didn't reply to my stats about the top 10 worse performing states and you're also basing a lot of your argument on Illinois and Michigan - front lines for the erosion of union power and the denuding of heavy manufacturing and industry - both of which are staple Republican policies.

I didn't respond because that article you posted had nothing to do with what we were discussing

You do realize that while a state can have a vibrant economy, it can also be on the path to bankruptcy due to out of control spending and entitlements.

The 2 states with the worst credit ratings (and also 2 of the biggest economies) in the country are IL and CA.  https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-has-lowest-credit-rating-of-all-50-states/


CT is also in serious trouble-  http://ctmirror.org/2016/05/19/new-ct-budget-prompts-two-credit-downgrades-from-wall-street/

So instead of addressing the issue of entitlements, governors like Dan Maloy start hiking taxes which the. Leads to companies like GE saying FU and moving 100 miles up the road to Boston.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2016/01/17/ge-departure/#18404b5f6b99

Many of the states on that list you posted have always been poor states, with little industry, wealth or tax base.  And just because states have a Republican governor, I take it you do realize that if the state legislature is overwhelming Democratic, there's only so much he or she can do. A governor is not a monarch!!!

[seafoid]

Contrary to what a lot of you think it's not the 1% fvcking, the hardworking people, it's the politicians

http://usofarn.com/2013/02/09/what-quinn-didnt-tell-you/

State of IL has a $110 B underfunded pension liability that the taxpayers are on the hook for

Whitey most of that deficit is due to the ultra low level of interest rates that the Fed imposed for the  benefit of the richest Americans.

Will you stop.

You could argue that TARP was to benefit the wealthy, at the expense of the taxpayer, but high interest rates would have been great fun for middle class mortgage holders.

Muppet something like 60% of debt is owned by the richest Americans.
the more debt they pump out the lower rates go.

It's called debt deflation and it's a rerun of a movie that was in cinemas in the 30s

https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/meltzer/fisdeb33.pdf

It's short enough to read on the tube out to ruislip

Every political system that ever existed had the 1%. In fact it was probably far worse in the past. We are far less class based that at any time in history and it is improving al the time. We are more traveled, more educated and have greater freedom from war and illness than ever. This of course doesn't apply to everyone on earth, but it never, ever did in the past.

I dare say most of us here had better childhoods than our parents and have better standards of living than they had. If we are not as happy as they were, then we need to look at ourselves instead of blaming easy targets.

We have a choice, whether to live our lives permanently angry at perceived enemies and wishing we had more, or we can enjoy what we have.

Did you like the Anglo bailout?
Did it stabilise the Eurozone?

Whether you like it or not yields are only going one way.
I was working on something with Irish bonds in February. the yield was 1.1%
now it has gone down to .84%
It'll go below zero after a sufficient dose of new debt is issued in the Euro system
your pension fund is going to be hit when the whole thing falls over.

[seafoid]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/28/protesters-clash-with-police-outside-donald-trump-rally-in-san-diego

Earlier in the day in Fresno, Trump denied that there was a major drought affecting the state, saying instead that when he becomes president he will "start opening up the water."

"There is no drought," he said.

Trump accused state officials of denying water to farmers so they can send it out to sea "to protect a certain kind of three-inch fish."

"We're going to solve your water problem. You have a water problem that is so insane. It is ridiculous where they're taking the water and shoving it out to sea," Trump said.

[J70]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/28/protesters-clash-with-police-outside-donald-trump-rally-in-san-diego

Earlier in the day in Fresno, Trump denied that there was a major drought affecting the state, saying instead that when he becomes president he will "start opening up the water."

"There is no drought," he said.

Trump accused state officials of denying water to farmers so they can send it out to sea "to protect a certain kind of three-inch fish."

"We're going to solve your water problem. You have a water problem that is so insane. It is ridiculous where they're taking the water and shoving it out to sea," Trump said.

Yes, the record four year drought is yet another conspiracy.

And squeezing already on-the-brink species to extinction to bring a very short term benefit to agriculture while claiming the real issues are all a conspiracy is really sound, responsible leadership.

Stew froths on and on about Clinton's murders and corruption and lies, but at least she's a pragmatic, mainstream politician somewhat rooted in reality, not like this charlatan. Christ, when the Senate Majority Leader (a supporter) has to come out and say that the US governmental system and balance of powers will reduce the possibility that his OWN party's nominee will inflict serious, damaging policies on the country, what does THAT tell you?

The scariest part is not him, but the ill-educated and similarly conspiracy theory-minded American electorate who are swallowing all this nonsense and will very possibly sweep him into office. "I'm going to bring back all the coal jobs", "I'm going to turn on the water", "I'm going to start trade wars and bring back all those outsourced jobs (never mind my own record in that area)", "I'm going to make bondholders take a haircut to reduce the national debt", "I'm going to make Mexico pay for a 3000 mile wall", "America will get bored with winning" etc. etc. etc.

[seafoid]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/28/protesters-clash-with-police-outside-donald-trump-rally-in-san-diego

Earlier in the day in Fresno, Trump denied that there was a major drought affecting the state, saying instead that when he becomes president he will "start opening up the water."

"There is no drought," he said.

Trump accused state officials of denying water to farmers so they can send it out to sea "to protect a certain kind of three-inch fish."

"We're going to solve your water problem. You have a water problem that is so insane. It is ridiculous where they're taking the water and shoving it out to sea," Trump said.

Yes, the record four year drought is yet another conspiracy.

And squeezing already on-the-brink species to extinction to bring a very short term benefit to agriculture while claiming the real issues are all a conspiracy is really sound, responsible leadership.

Stew froths on and on about Clinton's murders and corruption and lies, but at least she's a pragmatic, mainstream politician somewhat rooted in reality, not like this charlatan. Christ, when the Senate Majority Leader (a supporter) has to come out and say that the US governmental system and balance of powers will reduce the possibility that his OWN party's nominee will inflict serious, damaging policies on the country, what does THAT tell you?

The scariest part is not him, but the ill-educated and similarly conspiracy theory-minded American electorate who are swallowing all this nonsense and will very possibly sweep him into office. "I'm going to bring back all the coal jobs", "I'm going to turn on the water", "I'm going to start trade wars and bring back all those outsourced jobs (never mind my own record in that area)", "I'm going to make bondholders take a haircut to reduce the national debt", "I'm going to make Mexico pay for a 3000 mile wall", "America will get bored with winning" etc. etc. etc.

He is odious. The hatred of Muslims and Mexicans, the lies about helping people economically, the stance on climate change.... it says a lot about the state of things in the US today.

[easytiger95]

Interesting whitey - you didn't reply to my stats about the top 10 worse performing states and you're also basing a lot of your argument on Illinois and Michigan - front lines for the erosion of union power and the denuding of heavy manufacturing and industry - both of which are staple Republican policies.

I didn't respond because that article you posted had nothing to do with what we were discussing

You do realize that while a state can have a vibrant economy, it can also be on the path to bankruptcy due to out of control spending and entitlements.

The 2 states with the worst credit ratings (and also 2 of the biggest economies) in the country are IL and CA.  https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-has-lowest-credit-rating-of-all-50-states/


CT is also in serious trouble-  http://ctmirror.org/2016/05/19/new-ct-budget-prompts-two-credit-downgrades-from-wall-street/

So instead of addressing the issue of entitlements, governors like Dan Maloy start hiking taxes which the. Leads to companies like GE saying FU and moving 100 miles up the road to Boston.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2016/01/17/ge-departure/#18404b5f6b99

Many of the states on that list you posted have always been poor states, with little industry, wealth or tax base.  And just because states have a Republican governor, I take it you do realize that if the state legislature is overwhelming Democratic, there's only so much he or she can do. A governor is not a monarch!!!

Pull the other one whitey - the first link you posted there was from a right wing think tank rather than a statistics based site like mine. And I also realise that while a state legislature can be overwhelmingly Democratic with a Republican governor, it is also about as rare as unicorn. The Republican's gerrymandering and dominance of downticket races across the United States makes the opposite of your statement the norm.

And as for governor's not being monarchs, perhaps you would pass that information onto Messers Brownback, Christie, Jindal, Pence et al. You also didn't answer my point about Republican policy denuding unions, eroding manufacture and hollowing out state finances. Perhaps if they weren't too busy making the US into a deregulated wet dream for the Martin Shkrelis of this world, they wouldn't have to worry about rising entitlements or social security.

[muppet]

Contrary to what a lot of you think it's not the 1% fvcking, the hardworking people, it's the politicians

http://usofarn.com/2013/02/09/what-quinn-didnt-tell-you/

State of IL has a $110 B underfunded pension liability that the taxpayers are on the hook for

Whitey most of that deficit is due to the ultra low level of interest rates that the Fed imposed for the  benefit of the richest Americans.

Will you stop.

You could argue that TARP was to benefit the wealthy, at the expense of the taxpayer, but high interest rates would have been great fun for middle class mortgage holders.

Muppet something like 60% of debt is owned by the richest Americans.
the more debt they pump out the lower rates go.

It's called debt deflation and it's a rerun of a movie that was in cinemas in the 30s

https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/meltzer/fisdeb33.pdf

It's short enough to read on the tube out to ruislip

Every political system that ever existed had the 1%. In fact it was probably far worse in the past. We are far less class based that at any time in history and it is improving al the time. We are more traveled, more educated and have greater freedom from war and illness than ever. This of course doesn't apply to everyone on earth, but it never, ever did in the past.

I dare say most of us here had better childhoods than our parents and have better standards of living than they had. If we are not as happy as they were, then we need to look at ourselves instead of blaming easy targets.

We have a choice, whether to live our lives permanently angry at perceived enemies and wishing we had more, or we can enjoy what we have.

Did you like the Anglo bailout?
Did it stabilise the Eurozone?

Whether you like it or not yields are only going one way.
I was working on something with Irish bonds in February. the yield was 1.1%
now it has gone down to .84%
It'll go below zero after a sufficient dose of new debt is issued in the Euro system
your pension fund is going to be hit when the whole thing falls over.

I think I have posted enough here on that for anyone to know the answer.

Which makes me wonder why you are asking that question.

[seafoid]

Good man muppet. What is going on now in the states is no different to the Anglo bailout. The system works for the ultra rich and nobody else.

[whitey]

Interesting whitey - you didn't reply to my stats about the top 10 worse performing states and you're also basing a lot of your argument on Illinois and Michigan - front lines for the erosion of union power and the denuding of heavy manufacturing and industry - both of which are staple Republican policies.

I didn't respond because that article you posted had nothing to do with what we were discussing

You do realize that while a state can have a vibrant economy, it can also be on the path to bankruptcy due to out of control spending and entitlements.

The 2 states with the worst credit ratings (and also 2 of the biggest economies) in the country are IL and CA.  https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-has-lowest-credit-rating-of-all-50-states/


CT is also in serious trouble-  http://ctmirror.org/2016/05/19/new-ct-budget-prompts-two-credit-downgrades-from-wall-street/

So instead of addressing the issue of entitlements, governors like Dan Maloy start hiking taxes which the. Leads to companies like GE saying FU and moving 100 miles up the road to Boston.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2016/01/17/ge-departure/#18404b5f6b99

Many of the states on that list you posted have always been poor states, with little industry, wealth or tax base.  And just because states have a Republican governor, I take it you do realize that if the state legislature is overwhelming Democratic, there's only so much he or she can do. A governor is not a monarch!!!

Pull the other one whitey - the first link you posted there was from a right wing think tank rather than a statistics based site like mine. And I also realise that while a state legislature can be overwhelmingly Democratic with a Republican governor, it is also about as rare as unicorn. The Republican's gerrymandering and dominance of downticket races across the United States makes the opposite of your statement the norm.

And as for governor's not being monarchs, perhaps you would pass that information onto Messers Brownback, Christie, Jindal, Pence et al. You also didn't answer my point about Republican policy denuding unions, eroding manufacture and hollowing out state finances. Perhaps if they weren't too busy making the US into a deregulated wet dream for the Martin Shkrelis of this world, they wouldn't have to worry about rising entitlements or social security.

CA and IL have the flat out worst credit ratings in the country. If you don't like that website I linked in its well documented on others

Regarding your comment about unicorns and Republican governors.....you really haven't a clue....

http://www.wupr.org/2014/11/11/why-blue-states-elect-red-governors/

(4 of the last 5 governors of Massachusetts have been Republicans....Weld, Celluci, Romney and Baker)

[easytiger95]

Great argument - you select the one exception to the rule and say it proves the rule. Massachusetts has a long history of social conservatism, despite the Kennedy-supporting image outside the state. The Red Sox were the last MLB team to integrate, the busing crisis in the city in the 60s and 70s was incredibly divisive, and you don't have to watch Spotlight to know the heavy handed hold the diocese exerted on social policy. I lived there and I know the place, so I do know what I'm talking about. So if you want to discuss the other states that will prove your thesis?

Or perhaps we could discuss the well known fact (and it is a fact) that the vast majority of the current crop of Rep Governors have been forced further and further to the right by the Tea Party, that they are in hock to the Grover Norquist "no tax" crowd and even in states with a historically proven track record of underperformance (such as the the Southern states you mentioned) have achieved the incredible trick of making the state finances even worse.

So. your original statements that Dems are more likely to be career pols and that those career pols make worse decisions than those Rep reps with outside business experience are demonstrably false and are just more grist to the mill that leads white working class voters cut their own throats in election after election.

[seafoid]

The GOP went through the same process as the NRA viz was taken over by right wing fundamentalists. In the case of the GOP it was people like the Kochs who enforced doctrine. Tax cuts for the rich and entitlement cuts for everyone else. The tea party was an astroturf effort driven by the paruy's billionaire backers.  It was a purge of moderates straight out of the protestant reformation or the history of the Taliban. Orrin Hatch was a Republican senator who worked closely with TedKennedy. To the GOP élite people like him were traitors. So they were purged. After the last prez élection Romney wrote a paper analysing the failure. Npbody was interested. Obamacare was the Target. The GOP has been leaderless for some time. It Is very hard to square the interests of the ultra rich with those of working people. Meanwhile median income Is 10% Lower in real terms than in 1975. The American dream Is a sick Joke.
It had to fall apart. Trump was the vector. Making America Great again Is a reflection of how bad things are.

[whitey]

Great argument - you select the one exception to the rule and say it proves the rule. Massachusetts has a long history of social conservatism, despite the Kennedy-supporting image outside the state. The Red Sox were the last MLB team to integrate, the busing crisis in the city in the 60s and 70s was incredibly divisive, and you don't have to watch Spotlight to know the heavy handed hold the diocese exerted on social policy. I lived there and I know the place, so I do know what I'm talking about. So if you want to discuss the other states that will prove your thesis?

Or perhaps we could discuss the well known fact (and it is a fact) that the vast majority of the current crop of Rep Governors have been forced further and further to the right by the Tea Party, that they are in hock to the Grover Norquist "no tax" crowd and even in states with a historically proven track record of underperformance (such as the the Southern states you mentioned) have achieved the incredible trick of making the state finances even worse.

So. your original statements that Dems are more likely to be career pols and that those career pols make worse decisions than those Rep reps with outside business experience are demonstrably false and are just more grist to the mill that leads white working class voters cut their own throats in election after election.

I lived in CT from 2003 to 2008 and guess what party both governors who served during that time belonged to......Ill give you a hint it starts with an R

And I lived  in IL in 1994 and 1995 and guess what party Jim Edgar belonged to....I'll give you a hint....it also starts with an R

Do you see a pattern here, or is it just me?

And describing Charlie Baker (or anyone who won in 2014) as Tea Party.....well you can add the Tea Party to the list of things you should read up on before making blanket statements such as you did

http://www.governing.com/topics/elections/gov-massachusetts-governors-race.html

"And Baker, a businessman and former state official, isn't much of a right-winger. Baker is presenting himself as someone who could manage the state prudently, while sharing the liberal values of most Massachusetts voters on social issues. He supports, for instance, abortion rights and gun control and speaks with pride about his brother being a gay man and married resident of the commonwealth. "In any other state, Charlie Baker would be a Democrat," said Shannon Jenkins, a political scientist at the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth."

[easytiger95]

No I didn't describe Charlie Barker as Tea Party - nor did I describe everyone who won in 2014 as Tea Party - but it seems intellectual honesty has gone out the window here. I said the vast majority of the current crop of Republican governors (which does not tie them to an election cycle nor is it a blanket statement) are in hock to the principles of Grover Norquist - and they are. Check it out for yourself - Grover has a pledge and everything 

Giving an example of 94 and 95 is completely dishonest as the political scene is far more divided now then it was then and you had the whole Reagan democrat thing going - that is not happening now. So no, I don't see a pattern, unlike the pattern I did see when I laid out the facts that of the 10 worst performing states in the country economically, 7 were led by Republican governors and 1 had just got rid of a Republican Governor. And the criteria measuring those rankings were an average of several different economic indices, not just credit rating in the bond market (you'll excuse me if I take the ratings of Moodys and Standards and Poor with a grain of salt, no matter what they indicate)

I would recommend you do some reading up before pinning your economic arguments to Reagan Democrats, rating agencies and right wing websites. I'd also recommend you do this reading before making demonstrably false and biased remarks like Democratic career politicians are worse economic managers than Republicans.

[screenexile]

Bill Kristol reportedly unveiling a Conservative Independent candidate for the General.

Trump must be shitting himself he has zero chance if the Republican vote is diluted in any way!!