The Many Faces of US Politics...

[whitey]

I'm well aware of broken windows and zero tolerance theories, thanks.

I'm still not sure whether, from that particular article,  whitey was commenting for or against my statement.

neither is he, he may just googled broken window policing. The article actually questions the social and moral implications of such a policy, not whether it is effective, but no matter, he's very well read that Whitey fella!

Thanks...well read, plus about 4 hours per day stuck in traffic listening to satellite radio (both sides I might add)

I put the article up as evidence that there can be 2 reasonable sides to an argument....not necessarily a right opinion and a wrong opinion...but that evidence is often incolclusive one way or the other and that often a case can be made for either outcome.

Personally I would read a Breitbart article and follow it up with a NY Times or a Huff Post article to get the opposing view, then Google some "fact" I read in either article to see if they're blowing smoke.

The best info, in my opinion can be gleaned from the comments that accompany the articles, as they are not subject to editorial censorship/bias Eg I didn't see anywhere in the main stream media that the supervising sergeant at the Garner arrest was an African American woman...I read that in a comment.....then I went back and googled it and read her account of events.

On an aside, I met a retired NYPD detective last year, who was attached to the Midtown South prescinct back in the 80's & 90's. (I think that's what he called it)  His beat included Times Sq and MSG. He gave me the entire lowdown (from a cops viewpoint)  as to how bad things were down there and how they were able to turn things around.

After speaking with him I took it upon myself to read about the opposite side of the argument...ir that of a person of color

[whitey]

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

[J70]

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

But that is my point - knowing the victim, or not, is irrelevant when you are talking about the cop's motivation.

And of course any public advocacy of the cop by friends would have to be viewed skeptically. As would a statement by someone with a negative agenda towards him.

[whitey]

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

But that is my point - knowing the victim, or not, is irrelevant when you are talking about the cop's motivation.

And of course any public advocacy of the cop by friends would have to be viewed skeptically. As would a statement by someone with a negative agenda towards him.

So then no ones opinion is worth any more than any one else's, as they are just that opinions??

[foxcommander]

Wish folks were as concerned about the ruc and their shoot to kill policy on innocent Irish/ Catholics/ Irish a number of years ago!
But I suppose it's ok as the ruc weren't racist!!

That's a very, very bizarre and, frankly, slightly grotesque, statement to make. Catch yourself on.

If you're talking about people in the 26 counties I don't believe the majority gave a f*$k about what went on up in the north.

Take one example - If you look at the latest documents to be released under the 30 year rule there is evidence that the Gardaí were a lot more helpful towards their counterparts over the border than was thought, even bypassing government ministers (I wonder about that) to hand over information.

They couldn't give a monkeys...

[Eamonnca1]

Personally I would read a Breitbart article and follow it up with a NY Times or a Huff Post article to get the opposing view, then Google some "fact" I read in either article to see if they're blowing smoke.

"I read Breitbart" is not something you want to put into your defense of your critical thinking skills.

[J70]

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

But that is my point - knowing the victim, or not, is irrelevant when you are talking about the cop's motivation.

And of course any public advocacy of the cop by friends would have to be viewed skeptically. As would a statement by someone with a negative agenda towards him.

So then no ones opinion is worth any more than any one else's, as they are just that opinions??

That is not what I said.

[whitey]

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

But that is my point - knowing the victim, or not, is irrelevant when you are talking about the cop's motivation.

And of course any public advocacy of the cop by friends would have to be viewed skeptically. As would a statement by someone with a negative agenda towards him.

So then no ones opinion is worth any more than any one else's, as they are just that opinions??

That is not what I said.

Rephrase your comment then please, because if that's not what you're saying, I havent a clue what you're on about

[J70]

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

Yes. How dare I turn a race issue into a race issue.

keep em coming....the man's daughter, wife and mother ALL said it had nothing to do with race.

Here are some links with direct quotes if you need proof

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/12/04/eric-garners-daughter-on-her-fathers-death-this-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue/


http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/12/eric_garner_s_mom_death_wasn_t_about_race_it_was_a_thrill_kill.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/7/garners-widow-says-husband-was-targeted-illegally-/?page=all

With all due respect, how does Eric Garner's family know what Pantaleo's motivation was?

Regardless of his motivation,  yet another unarmed,  unthreatening black man is dead at the hands of cops.

LOL...you're kidding right?? 

If any group of people in the entire universe were uniquely qualified to give an educated opinion, it would be his immediate family members.

They obviously know Eric Garners personality....They obviously know of his prior arrests....They obviously know of his health issues...

What does any of that have to do with Pantaleo's actions? Little-man syndrome or racist, how can they know?

Pantaleo's family and friends and colleagues -  their honest opinion might be somewhat relevant.

So who's opioion would you value more....someone who knew the victim or someone who didn't know the victim?

And if Pantaleo's friends and colleagues came out and said that his actions weren't racist would you actually believe them?

But that is my point - knowing the victim, or not, is irrelevant when you are talking about the cop's motivation.

And of course any public advocacy of the cop by friends would have to be viewed skeptically. As would a statement by someone with a negative agenda towards him.

So then no ones opinion is worth any more than any one else's, as they are just that opinions??

That is not what I said.

Rephrase your comment then please, because if that's not what you're saying, I havent a clue what you're on about

Seriously?

I didn't make any generalized comment.  I addressed two specific types of comments concerning Pantaleo i.e.  from the victim's family and from people who know Pantaleo,  whether in a negative or positive way.

[muppet]

Wish folks were as concerned about the ruc and their shoot to kill policy

you don't think folks were concerned about police shoot to kill policies?
hmmm, interesting.

Isn't this precisely the problem? Shoot to kill and the establishment will sweep up. This sort of policing is seriously counterproductive. 

[lynchbhoy]

Wish folks were as concerned about the ruc and their shoot to kill policy on innocent Irish/ Catholics/ Irish a number of years ago!
But I suppose it's ok as the ruc weren't racist!!

That's a very, very bizarre and, frankly, slightly grotesque, statement to make. Catch yourself on.

How so?
Maybe you catch yourself on!

Apart from ( some of) our own, there was no clamour from southern 26 counties let alone further
afield - I wish people had been as worried about the treatment of Irish/nationalist / catholic innocents up until 1994!!!

While dreadfully sad about a few men shot dead in the USA ( irrespective of whether guilty of a crime or not) it's remarkable how it's so earth shattering this all is to you all given the complete intransigence of practically everyone when it was happening on a wider and more frequent
Scale here pre 1994 !
The world turned a blind eye to it!

Yes I had relations who were victims of this.

[lynchbhoy]

Wish folks were as concerned about the ruc and their shoot to kill policy

you don't think folks were concerned about police shoot to kill policies?
hmmm, interesting.

Well the world his it's concern rather well as did most of Ireland.

There was certainly fcuk all done about it apart from sweep it under the carpet - but I'm glad you found it interesting!

I think you are proving a bigger nugget to entertain us now!
I'm going for some Doritos now!!

[heganboy]

I think you are proving a bigger nugget to entertain us now!
I'm going for some Doritos now!!

Might not have had much attention where you grew up but in Armagh there were few doubted the policy and most behaved as if it were public policy. To muppet's point when the establishment tacitly approved this policy rule of law no longer holds sway and justice becomes a very fluid notion. People then tend to take matters into their own hands.
Not sure about your Doritos?

[lynchbhoy]

I think you are proving a bigger nugget to entertain us now!
I'm going for some Doritos now!!

Might not have had much attention where you grew up but in Armagh there were few doubted the policy and most behaved as if it were public policy. To muppet's point when the establishment tacitly approved this policy rule of law no longer holds sway and justice becomes a very fluid notion. People then tend to take matters into their own hands.
Not sure about your Doritos?

Munching on the Doritos enthralled at how you mistook Armagh for a cosmopolitan place outside of Ireland !!
So what was done about this shoot to kill policy and who came in to assist us natives ( not the foreign Armagh island)

[Eamonnca1]

So you're demanding to know why there wasn't international outrage about the shoot-to-kill policy in the north, because you don't think there can be outrage about shoot-to-kill policing in America, except among people in America, and the outrage about the northern thing is only allowed to come from some cosmopolitan place outside of Ireland, therefore northerners are exempt from being outraged about shoot-to-kill in the north because if they are they're being hypocrites for being outraged about shoot-to-kill in America, because if they can't find someone from outside Ireland who was outraged about shoot-to-kill in the north they can't be outraged about shoot to kill in America, because ...