The Many Faces of US Politics...

[Mike Sheehy]

How does the issue of racism in Ireland (which I agree is ornament and widespread) detract from the issue of racism in the states?

Your attempt to suggest everyone here is pulling the wool over their eyes about racism in Ireland is bullshit ("you are completely shit" as you might say). There was an entire thread devoted to the question of whether Ireland is resist or not. This thread is specifically about the US so take your misguided attempt at diluting the debate elsewhere. You might fancy yourself as a polemicist or academic - in reality you're nothing more than a troll.

Really ? 130 pages discussing the failings of a country 3000 miles away and nothing about the endemic racism in Ireland ?

Surely there is something fishy going on ? Perhaps a not so hidden agenda ...?

[Mike Sheehy]

Also, this is a thread about US politics...why are you discussing a police shooting ?

[gallsman]

How does the issue of racism in Ireland (which I agree is ornament and widespread) detract from the issue of racism in the states?

Your attempt to suggest everyone here is pulling the wool over their eyes about racism in Ireland is bullshit ("you are completely shit" as you might say). There was an entire thread devoted to the question of whether Ireland is resist or not. This thread is specifically about the US so take your misguided attempt at diluting the debate elsewhere. You might fancy yourself as a polemicist or academic - in reality you're nothing more than a troll.

Really ? 130 pages discussing the failings of a country 3000 miles away and nothing about the endemic racism in Ireland ?

Surely there is something fishy going on ? Perhaps a not so hidden agenda ...?

As I said - there was a thread about racism in Ireland. Go look it up if you want.

Personally, I find Kerry f**kers to be the most racist c***ts of all in Ireland.

[Mike Sheehy]

You know full well that there is a deep, abiding hatred of the US amongst certain people on here and this thread (and many others) are simply an excuse for them to vent their prejudice. As someone who has lived in the US for many years and who has friends, relatives, coworkers that are American I simply cannot stand by and allow their obvious and blatant xenophobia to go unchallenged.

And it is telling that you resort to insults when challenged. 

[gallsman]

You know full well that there is a deep, abiding hatred of the US amongst certain people on here and this thread (and many others) are simply an excuse for them to vent their prejudice. As someone who has lived in the US for many years and who has friends, relatives, coworkers that are American I simply cannot stand by and allow their obvious and blatant xenophobia to go unchallenged.

And it is telling that you resort to insults when challenged.

So? Does that mean the rest of us can't discuss it without you landing in to attempt to label us in a way that suits your agenda?

Do all countries have problems of politics/race/economy etc etc? Yes. Does the US? Yes. Is the US the last remaining superpower and hence of particular interest to the rest of the world, especially those in Anglophone countries? Yes. Is it therefore a topic that people should be entitled to debate without being accused of ignoring latent (and in some cases blatant, yes) xenophobia and racism in Ireland? Yes.

[Mike Sheehy]

You know full well that there is a deep, abiding hatred of the US amongst certain people on here and this thread (and many others) are simply an excuse for them to vent their prejudice. As someone who has lived in the US for many years and who has friends, relatives, coworkers that are American I simply cannot stand by and allow their obvious and blatant xenophobia to go unchallenged.

And it is telling that you resort to insults when challenged.

So? Does that mean the rest of us can't discuss it without you landing in to attempt to label us in a way that suits your agenda?

Do all countries have problems of politics/race/economy etc etc? Yes. Does the US? Yes. Is the US the last remaining superpower and hence of particular interest to the rest of the world, especially those in Anglophone countries? Yes. Is it therefore a topic that people should be entitled to debate without being accused of ignoring latent (and in some cases blatant, yes) xenophobia and racism in Ireland? Yes.

No, I am all for discussion but  there must be some consistency. I am perfectly fine with there being more focus on Anglophone countries , that is natural, but the lack of balance has reached ridiculous proportions.

Also, as I said, certain people on here have an agenda. If the discussions about incidents were about the incidents themselves, fine,  but what I see happen everytime is that there are attempts to expand the discussion in a way that reinforces certain geopolitical viewpoints and prejudices so one minute you are talking about a police shooting and the next minute drug companies or war machine rhetoric gets dragged into the discussion. These things are not accidental.

so, either you lads are very naïve and get played like puppets everytime or else you share the same base prejudices. Sometimes it is very hard to tell.

[gallsman]

As I said before - there is a thread on racism in Ireland. It is discussed frequently, and, in my opinion, condemned much more often than not. Look at the condemnation of the abuse Anna Lo suffered for example.

This particular discussion focuses on the US and events in Ferguson. Why would anyone casting an opinion on it be forced to look through at it through an Irish lens? You're simply trying to work in an angle where there isn't one.

On the flip side of things, it rather appears you're trying to brush off or ignore racism that exists in the States with an attitude of "sort out your own house first lads". They're not mutually exclusive. At the end of the day, an unarmed black teenager was shot by a white cop. This is a tragedy, regardless of what people might think about the findings of the grand jury. THe day before the grand jury verdict was announced, an unarmed 12 year black boy was shot dead by a white cop. This is the perfect time to discuss race relations, policing mindset, gun control etc. Your attempts to distract from that don't make it any less true.

[whitey]

(1) What theory? A history of the Gárdaí from 1922 - 1932 is not relevant to today's policing anywhere. In the context of your guardians of the peace argument, the irony that Eoin O'Duffy was in charge during that time will not be lost on some here.

(2) You are likely to get thrown straight into jail in some States if you are far enough over the limit. That would be extremely rare here. But again what is the point of this argument?

(3) So drunks in the US respect the police but drunks in Ireland don't? Even if this was universal and accurate (and remotely in the vicinity of being a fact), again what is the point here?

(4) The facts are an unarmed man was shot dead. It is a fact he stole $48 dollars worth of cigars. It appears he was walking not on the sidewalk. They are the established facts. There is other information which has contradictory accounts and thus can't be considered as 'facts'. You are still searching for something to justify this instant execution and your comment about trying to wrestle a gun from a cop is not an undisputed fact either. This comment also ignores that the cop was safe when an already shot and injured Brown was running (or stumbling) away from him. The cop was ordering him to stop, which he did. What happened next is again disputed but it seems unlikely that an already shot and injured, unarmed 18 year old man was really that much of a threat to a fit & well, 6' 4" cop with a gun.

Arguing about whether Brown was a model citizen is missing the point entirely and seems to be the way these things go in this modern era of spin. And boy are people easily spun. The issue is the burden of responsibility on police officer before he can decide to empty his gun into a citizen. That is the only issue here.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.....I have found policing in the states to be even handed and fair as long as you're respectful and compliant.  My experience in Ireland has been that law enforcement is all about catching people out and generating revenue...but again that's just an opinion based on 20 years real life experience.

The Irish unfortunately let themselves down wherever they go.  Whether it's wrecking campsites like they did when I was in Munich in 1992, or the disgraceful carry on in Australia or those idiots in San Francisco who destroyed that lady's house. Im making an assumption here Carmen, but what is the behavior of the Irish like in Yonkers that elicits such a response from the cops?

Browns DNA was on the gun...make of it what you want....I know what my conclusions are, and you are free to make other conclusions.

[muppet]

(1) What theory? A history of the Gárdaí from 1922 - 1932 is not relevant to today's policing anywhere. In the context of your guardians of the peace argument, the irony that Eoin O'Duffy was in charge during that time will not be lost on some here.

(2) You are likely to get thrown straight into jail in some States if you are far enough over the limit. That would be extremely rare here. But again what is the point of this argument?

(3) So drunks in the US respect the police but drunks in Ireland don't? Even if this was universal and accurate (and remotely in the vicinity of being a fact), again what is the point here?

(4) The facts are an unarmed man was shot dead. It is a fact he stole $48 dollars worth of cigars. It appears he was walking not on the sidewalk. They are the established facts. There is other information which has contradictory accounts and thus can't be considered as 'facts'. You are still searching for something to justify this instant execution and your comment about trying to wrestle a gun from a cop is not an undisputed fact either. This comment also ignores that the cop was safe when an already shot and injured Brown was running (or stumbling) away from him. The cop was ordering him to stop, which he did. What happened next is again disputed but it seems unlikely that an already shot and injured, unarmed 18 year old man was really that much of a threat to a fit & well, 6' 4" cop with a gun.

Arguing about whether Brown was a model citizen is missing the point entirely and seems to be the way these things go in this modern era of spin. And boy are people easily spun. The issue is the burden of responsibility on police officer before he can decide to empty his gun into a citizen. That is the only issue here.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.....I have found policing in the states to be even handed and fair as long as you're respectful and compliant.  My experience in Ireland has been that law enforcement is all about catching people out and generating revenue...but again that's just an opinion based on 20 years real life experience.

The Irish unfortunately let themselves down wherever they go.  Whether it's wrecking campsites like they did when I was in Munich in 1992, or the disgraceful carry on in Australia or those idiots in San Francisco who destroyed that lady's house. Im making an assumption here Carmen, but what is the behavior of the Irish like in Yonkers that elicits such a response from the cops?

Browns DNA was on the gun...make of it what you want....I know what my conclusions are, and you are free to make other conclusions.

So he deserved to be shot to death?

[whitey]

(1) What theory? A history of the Gárdaí from 1922 - 1932 is not relevant to today's policing anywhere. In the context of your guardians of the peace argument, the irony that Eoin O'Duffy was in charge during that time will not be lost on some here.

(2) You are likely to get thrown straight into jail in some States if you are far enough over the limit. That would be extremely rare here. But again what is the point of this argument?

(3) So drunks in the US respect the police but drunks in Ireland don't? Even if this was universal and accurate (and remotely in the vicinity of being a fact), again what is the point here?

(4) The facts are an unarmed man was shot dead. It is a fact he stole $48 dollars worth of cigars. It appears he was walking not on the sidewalk. They are the established facts. There is other information which has contradictory accounts and thus can't be considered as 'facts'. You are still searching for something to justify this instant execution and your comment about trying to wrestle a gun from a cop is not an undisputed fact either. This comment also ignores that the cop was safe when an already shot and injured Brown was running (or stumbling) away from him. The cop was ordering him to stop, which he did. What happened next is again disputed but it seems unlikely that an already shot and injured, unarmed 18 year old man was really that much of a threat to a fit & well, 6' 4" cop with a gun.

Arguing about whether Brown was a model citizen is missing the point entirely and seems to be the way these things go in this modern era of spin. And boy are people easily spun. The issue is the burden of responsibility on police officer before he can decide to empty his gun into a citizen. That is the only issue here.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.....I have found policing in the states to be even handed and fair as long as you're respectful and compliant.  My experience in Ireland has been that law enforcement is all about catching people out and generating revenue...but again that's just an opinion based on 20 years real life experience.

The Irish unfortunately let themselves down wherever they go.  Whether it's wrecking campsites like they did when I was in Munich in 1992, or the disgraceful carry on in Australia or those idiots in San Francisco who destroyed that lady's house. Im making an assumption here Carmen, but what is the behavior of the Irish like in Yonkers that elicits such a response from the cops?

Browns DNA was on the gun...make of it what you want....I know what my conclusions are, and you are free to make other conclusions.

So he deserved to be shot to death?

If he assaulted a police officer and attempted to take his gun.....then my answer is yes

[gallsman]

So having already shot him and presumably therefore eliminated the threat, he should continue to shoot to kill.

Interesting, and horrifying, perspective.

[muppet]

(1) What theory? A history of the Gárdaí from 1922 - 1932 is not relevant to today's policing anywhere. In the context of your guardians of the peace argument, the irony that Eoin O'Duffy was in charge during that time will not be lost on some here.

(2) You are likely to get thrown straight into jail in some States if you are far enough over the limit. That would be extremely rare here. But again what is the point of this argument?

(3) So drunks in the US respect the police but drunks in Ireland don't? Even if this was universal and accurate (and remotely in the vicinity of being a fact), again what is the point here?

(4) The facts are an unarmed man was shot dead. It is a fact he stole $48 dollars worth of cigars. It appears he was walking not on the sidewalk. They are the established facts. There is other information which has contradictory accounts and thus can't be considered as 'facts'. You are still searching for something to justify this instant execution and your comment about trying to wrestle a gun from a cop is not an undisputed fact either. This comment also ignores that the cop was safe when an already shot and injured Brown was running (or stumbling) away from him. The cop was ordering him to stop, which he did. What happened next is again disputed but it seems unlikely that an already shot and injured, unarmed 18 year old man was really that much of a threat to a fit & well, 6' 4" cop with a gun.

Arguing about whether Brown was a model citizen is missing the point entirely and seems to be the way these things go in this modern era of spin. And boy are people easily spun. The issue is the burden of responsibility on police officer before he can decide to empty his gun into a citizen. That is the only issue here.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.....I have found policing in the states to be even handed and fair as long as you're respectful and compliant.  My experience in Ireland has been that law enforcement is all about catching people out and generating revenue...but again that's just an opinion based on 20 years real life experience.

The Irish unfortunately let themselves down wherever they go.  Whether it's wrecking campsites like they did when I was in Munich in 1992, or the disgraceful carry on in Australia or those idiots in San Francisco who destroyed that lady's house. Im making an assumption here Carmen, but what is the behavior of the Irish like in Yonkers that elicits such a response from the cops?

Browns DNA was on the gun...make of it what you want....I know what my conclusions are, and you are free to make other conclusions.

So he deserved to be shot to death?

If he assaulted a police officer and attempted to take his gun.....then my answer is yes

Fair enough.

Wilson fired 12 shots, 6 hitting Brown, which is remarkable if his gun was being taken off him.

So my answer would be no. Not on the current evidence.

[macdanger2]

(1) What theory? A history of the Gárdaí from 1922 - 1932 is not relevant to today's policing anywhere. In the context of your guardians of the peace argument, the irony that Eoin O'Duffy was in charge during that time will not be lost on some here.

(2) You are likely to get thrown straight into jail in some States if you are far enough over the limit. That would be extremely rare here. But again what is the point of this argument?

(3) So drunks in the US respect the police but drunks in Ireland don't? Even if this was universal and accurate (and remotely in the vicinity of being a fact), again what is the point here?

(4) The facts are an unarmed man was shot dead. It is a fact he stole $48 dollars worth of cigars. It appears he was walking not on the sidewalk. They are the established facts. There is other information which has contradictory accounts and thus can't be considered as 'facts'. You are still searching for something to justify this instant execution and your comment about trying to wrestle a gun from a cop is not an undisputed fact either. This comment also ignores that the cop was safe when an already shot and injured Brown was running (or stumbling) away from him. The cop was ordering him to stop, which he did. What happened next is again disputed but it seems unlikely that an already shot and injured, unarmed 18 year old man was really that much of a threat to a fit & well, 6' 4" cop with a gun.

Arguing about whether Brown was a model citizen is missing the point entirely and seems to be the way these things go in this modern era of spin. And boy are people easily spun. The issue is the burden of responsibility on police officer before he can decide to empty his gun into a citizen. That is the only issue here.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.....I have found policing in the states to be even handed and fair as long as you're respectful and compliant.  My experience in Ireland has been that law enforcement is all about catching people out and generating revenue...but again that's just an opinion based on 20 years real life experience.

The Irish unfortunately let themselves down wherever they go.  Whether it's wrecking campsites like they did when I was in Munich in 1992, or the disgraceful carry on in Australia or those idiots in San Francisco who destroyed that lady's house. Im making an assumption here Carmen, but what is the behavior of the Irish like in Yonkers that elicits such a response from the cops?

Browns DNA was on the gun...make of it what you want....I know what my conclusions are, and you are free to make other conclusions.

So he deserved to be shot to death?

If he assaulted a police officer and attempted to take his gun.....then my answer is yes

Ah jesus

[J70]

The Eric Garner case is coming up for grand jury soon. Thats the one where the cop put a big black guy in Staten Island in a choke hold and he collapsed and died, all for the massive public safety offense of illegally selling packets of cigarettes.  If that cop doesn't go to trial,  I don't know what will happen, the offense is so blatant.  But, who honestly will be shocked if another police killing of an unarmed black man goes unpunished?

[whitey]

If you believe the findings of the grand jury and evidence of credible eye witnesses who testified under oath who said that Brown turned back and was charging the officer, then yes, Wilsons actions were justified.

If you don't believe the findings of he grand jury and (believe the testimony of the less reliable Witt eases who changed their stories numerous times)....then obviously you will have a different opinion

That's what they are opinions