The Many Faces of US Politics...

[whitey]

Yes...born and bred...and a B in Honors Irish in the LC to boot

And 2 Mayo Championshop medals as well-U16 and u21

Good man.

The reason I asked is it seemed strange (to me anyway) to literally translate An Garda Siochana and take that translation to identify a difference with another country's police force.

Police forces will obviously have different flavours and culture from country to country, but I would guess there are plenty of Gardai 'charged' week in week out around Ireland and they don't shoot to kill immediately. This came up on the discussion regarding John Morley murder whereby he fired over the heads of the INLA guys. One of them just turned and shot him dead.

Read your history me lad.....it's all there in black and white (read the paragraph on Garda Siochana Duties). Many of their duties have nothing to do with policing and more to do with administration

http://www.policehistory.com/issues.html

[LeoMc]

We do not know the terms of reference in this case, we know the result and some of the inputs but we do not know the full picture and the influences. A court case would give is that but should there be a court case every time something looks a little off to anyone?

[muppet]

Yes...born and bred...and a B in Honors Irish in the LC to boot

And 2 Mayo Championshop medals as well-U16 and u21

Good man.

The reason I asked is it seemed strange (to me anyway) to literally translate An Garda Siochana and take that translation to identify a difference with another country's police force.

Police forces will obviously have different flavours and culture from country to country, but I would guess there are plenty of Gardai 'charged' week in week out around Ireland and they don't shoot to kill immediately. This came up on the discussion regarding John Morley murder whereby he fired over the heads of the INLA guys. One of them just turned and shot him dead.

Read your history me lad.....it's all there in black and white (read the paragraph on Garda Siochana Duties). Many of their duties have nothing to do with policing and more to do with administration

http://www.policehistory.com/issues.html

I completely fail to see your point.

You pointed out that in the US the police are heavily armed. And then went on to say that in Ireland the police are guardians of the peace and this somehow was the difference.

Could you explain what you mean?

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Because maybe when they look at all the evidence, they decide the police were right?

Maybe.  But is it likely the police are in the right so often?   Moreover, isn't the issue with a grand jury indictment merely that the accused has a case to answer?--in which case you'd think that there would be sufficient evidence in some of these cases to at least show this.  All the more so  when you look at the numbers in comparison with grand jury indictment cases involving accused who aren't police.  In such cases, the vast majority of cases go to trial.

[whitey]

Yes...born and bred...and a B in Honors Irish in the LC to boot

And 2 Mayo Championshop medals as well-U16 and u21

Good man.

The reason I asked is it seemed strange (to me anyway) to literally translate An Garda Siochana and take that translation to identify a difference with another country's police force.

Police forces will obviously have different flavours and culture from country to country, but I would guess there are plenty of Gardai 'charged' week in week out around Ireland and they don't shoot to kill immediately. This came up on the discussion regarding John Morley murder whereby he fired over the heads of the INLA guys. One of them just turned and shot him dead.

Read your history me lad.....it's all there in black and white (read the paragraph on Garda Siochana Duties). Many of their duties have nothing to do with policing and more to do with administration

http://www.policehistory.com/issues.html

I completely fail to see your point.

You pointed out that in the US the police are heavily armed. And then went on to say that in Ireland the police are guardians of the peace and this somehow was the difference.

Could you explain what you mean?

It's a subtle but yet very significant difference.  If you take the time to read that article I linked in, you will see that the Guards have (or at least had) many responsibilities that fall (or perhaps fell) outside the remit of what I would term "everyday police work".

Many Irish people (at least in my experience) view or viewed the guards, as no more than quasi civil servants or tax collectors, and hence there was/is very little respect for either the law or the Gardai.

In the States, where I have lived for 20 years, the police have one job. Enforce the law. The average person in the States, in my opinion, would have a much higher degree of respect for the police and the law in general, than the average person in Ireland.

There's no "gotcha" law enforcement over here such as speed cameras (catching people going 1 mile over the speed limit) or early morning DUI checkpoints (looking to bag some hard working guy on his way to work who took a cab home the night before).

For the most part law enforcement over here is all about public safety and most people are appreciative of it.  So if a law enforcement official gives you a command over here, you obey it-without question. You can argue your case down at the station, or in front of the judge. It would be highly unusual to hear someone, over here, answer a cop back or disobey a direct command from a law enforcement official.

That's why there's very little sympathy for Michael Brown outside of the minority community and the left wing uber liberal hipster establishment.

[heganboy]

That's why there's very little sympathy for Michael Brown outside of the minority community and the left wing uber liberal hipster establishment.

Umm, really?

there is a huge racial divide over the Ferguson shooting yes, but to say there is very little sympathy for Michael Brown is nonsensical.
As for the new target of your ire good luck with your new categorization:
No results found for "left wing uber liberal hipster establishment"
You're on to something- first person in the world to post this new category. You can have a talk show of your own in no time.

In case you have any interest in finding out more than your pre-suppositions may I suggest here for some actual poll results
http://www.people-press.org/2014/08/18/stark-racial-divisions-in-reactions-to-ferguson-police-shooting/

[whitey]

That's why there's very little sympathy for Michael Brown outside of the minority community and the left wing uber liberal hipster establishment.

Umm, really?

there is a huge racial divide over the Ferguson shooting yes, but to say there is very little sympathy for Michael Brown is nonsensical.
As for the new target of your ire good luck with your new categorization:
No results found for "left wing uber liberal hipster establishment"
You're on to something- first person in the world to post this new category. You can have a talk show of your own in no time.

In case you have any interest in finding out more than your pre-suppositions may I suggest here for some actual poll results
http://www.people-press.org/2014/08/18/stark-racial-divisions-in-reactions-to-ferguson-police-shooting/

Opinions only my friend....that's why it's called a discussion board...you can choose to agree with me or disagree...that's your prerogative

oh the left wing uber liberal hipster establishment....I came up with that one myself...it's a combination of terms I cobbled together based on the self descriptions of several of my Facebook friends. See,we can discuss stuff, hold widely different political opinions and world views, yet still be friends.

As as example here's my cousins current status on her Facebook page. (I changed some of the names)

"Thanksgiving 2014. The one where my Dad gave thanks for all the Rogers,  Johnny Smith nailed every single dish, Nicole Rice got me hooked on double baked sweet potatoes, Alden ate his very first Tom Turkey, and we all agreed we could disagree about politics without being disagreeable. One for the books!"

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Maybe there's nothing wrong with few or any of these white-cop-shoots-black-civilian cases.  Maybe.  But suppose for a second the races where reversed, and the US was a majority black country where black cops shot white kids, and were not indicted.  Would popular opinion change?

[heganboy]

Whitey,
I'm all for opinions as you and I have discussed.
Just not a big fan of them being stated as facts

Anyways Happy Thanksgiving!

[muppet]

Yes...born and bred...and a B in Honors Irish in the LC to boot

And 2 Mayo Championshop medals as well-U16 and u21

Good man.

The reason I asked is it seemed strange (to me anyway) to literally translate An Garda Siochana and take that translation to identify a difference with another country's police force.

Police forces will obviously have different flavours and culture from country to country, but I would guess there are plenty of Gardai 'charged' week in week out around Ireland and they don't shoot to kill immediately. This came up on the discussion regarding John Morley murder whereby he fired over the heads of the INLA guys. One of them just turned and shot him dead.

Read your history me lad.....it's all there in black and white (read the paragraph on Garda Siochana Duties). Many of their duties have nothing to do with policing and more to do with administration

http://www.policehistory.com/issues.html

I completely fail to see your point.

You pointed out that in the US the police are heavily armed. And then went on to say that in Ireland the police are guardians of the peace and this somehow was the difference.

Could you explain what you mean?

It's a subtle but yet very significant difference.  If you take the time to read that article I linked in, you will see that the Guards have (or at least had) many responsibilities that fall (or perhaps fell) outside the remit of what I would term "everyday police work".

Many Irish people (at least in my experience) view or viewed the guards, as no more than quasi civil servants or tax collectors, and hence there was/is very little respect for either the law or the Gardai.

In the States, where I have lived for 20 years, the police have one job. Enforce the law. The average person in the States, in my opinion, would have a much higher degree of respect for the police and the law in general, than the average person in Ireland.

There's no "gotcha" law enforcement over here such as speed cameras (catching people going 1 mile over the speed limit) or early morning DUI checkpoints (looking to bag some hard working guy on his way to work who took a cab home the night before).

For the most part law enforcement over here is all about public safety and most people are appreciative of it.  So if a law enforcement official gives you a command over here, you obey it-without question. You can argue your case down at the station, or in front of the judge. It would be highly unusual to hear someone, over here, answer a cop back or disobey a direct command from a law enforcement official.

That's why there's very little sympathy for Michael Brown outside of the minority community and the left wing uber liberal hipster establishment.

I took the time to read it and was still confused, as it is about as relevent to policing today in Ireland as the Wild West is in the US.

I also fail to see how the difference in outcome between charging at a police uniform in the USA and doing it in Ireland can be put down to us viewing the police as civil servants. I would have far less respect for a trigger happy police officer with no policing skills than I would have for any competent worker, civil service or not.

[AZOffaly]

I see the fact that the Gardai as being largely unarmed as a positive thing. I completely disagree that they are not respected by most people. Of course there are scumbags around who disregard law and order entirely, but they'd be the same scumbags whether the gardai were armed or not. Being 'frightened' of someone is not the same as respecting them. And it also means you're more likely to try and do something if you get a chance to.

In the US, the way society has gone, everyone is a potential gunman, and every cop has to deal with that fact every time they go to a call out. That obviously will lead to fraught incidents, and will lead to bad policing and over reactions. As I said before though, I don't entirely blame the individual cops for that. I blame the fact that they are even thinking like that in the first place.

In Ireland, there are quite a few armed criminals. There are relatively few armed detectives or ERU gardai. We don't have a serious 'cop killer' problem, and we have very few 'shootouts' where innocent people get killed. I don't view any of that as a flaw in our policing model.

[gallsman]

In the States, where I have lived for 20 years, the police have one job. Enforce the law. The average person in the States, in my opinion, would have a much higher degree of respect for the police and the law in general, than the average person in Ireland.

There's no "gotcha" law enforcement over here such as speed cameras (catching people going 1 mile over the speed limit) or early morning DUI checkpoints (looking to bag some hard working guy on his way to work who took a cab home the night before)

Must be why in the States:

a) Crime is a non-issue
b) Laws of the road are observed
c) Drink driving isn't an issue



Balderdash.

In the US, the way society has gone, everyone is seen to be a potential gunman, and every cop has to deal with that fact every time they go to a call out. That obviously will lead to fraught incidents, and will lead to bad policing and over reactions. As I said before though, I don't entirely blame the individual cops for that. I blame the fact that they are even thinking like that in the first place.

I'd suggest that small but subtly important update to your piece AZ. It's a completely different mindset. In Ireland, a kid carrying a toy gun, the assumption is "that child has a toy gun". In the States, the assumption is "potentially deadly threat - eliminate".

[muppet]

I see the fact that the Gardai as being largely unarmed as a positive thing. I completely disagree that they are not respected by most people. Of course there are scumbags around who disregard law and order entirely, but they'd be the same scumbags whether the gardai were armed or not. Being 'frightened' of someone is not the same as respecting them.And it also means your more likely to try and do something if you get a chance to.

In the US, the way society has gone, everyone is a potential gunman, and every cop has to deal with that fact every time they go to a call out. That obviously will lead to fraught incidents, and will lead to bad policing and over reactions. As I said before though, I don't entirely blame the individual cops for that. I blame the fact that they are even thinking like that in the first place.

In Ireland, there are quite a few armed criminals. There are relatively few armed detectives or ERU gardai. We don't have a serious 'cop killer' problem, and we have very few 'shootouts' where innocent people get killed. I don't view any of that as a flaw in our policing model.

I had the same thought myself when reading Whitey's post.

For the record anytime I've seen the police in the US in action they are as curteous and professional as those anywhere else. They are always very helpful.

[AZOffaly]

I see the fact that the Gardai as being largely unarmed as a positive thing. I completely disagree that they are not respected by most people. Of course there are scumbags around who disregard law and order entirely, but they'd be the same scumbags whether the gardai were armed or not. Being 'frightened' of someone is not the same as respecting them.And it also means your more likely to try and do something if you get a chance to.

In the US, the way society has gone, everyone is a potential gunman, and every cop has to deal with that fact every time they go to a call out. That obviously will lead to fraught incidents, and will lead to bad policing and over reactions. As I said before though, I don't entirely blame the individual cops for that. I blame the fact that they are even thinking like that in the first place.

In Ireland, there are quite a few armed criminals. There are relatively few armed detectives or ERU gardai. We don't have a serious 'cop killer' problem, and we have very few 'shootouts' where innocent people get killed. I don't view any of that as a flaw in our policing model.

I had the same thought myself when reading Whitey's post.

For the record anytime I've seen the police in the US in action they are as curteous and professional as those anywhere else. They are always very helpful.

I agree. I find them wary and watchful when you approach them initially, but they are quite quick to react to politeness. A few I spoke to in bars in Phoenix etc always said they would love the Irish and British approach, whereby the normal cop is less likely to experience gun play. They acknowledged that the fact they have guns, and the criminals have guns, mean that both sides are inclined to use them guns quickly, because you can't know what the other fella is going to do.

[heganboy]

In the States, where I have lived for 20 years, the police have one job. Enforce the law. The average person in the States, in my opinion, would have a much higher degree of respect for the police and the law in general, than the average person in Ireland.

There's no "gotcha" law enforcement over here such as speed cameras (catching people going 1 mile over the speed limit) or early morning DUI checkpoints (looking to bag some hard working guy on his way to work who took a cab home the night before)

Its an interesting opinion, and I find that having travelled in the US a lot, the attitudes to police are very much based on people's circumstances. Socially disadvantaged folk tend to have a lower opinion than those in wealthier communities. No surprise there, and if that degree of respect is there, that's a good sign that things are going well for the Whitey family.

There wan't a lot of respect for the RUC when I was growing up, so that's a fair point, however I never experienced other than the healthiest of attitudes towards Na Gardai.

One question Whitey, in what part of the US do you live?
the checkpoints and speed cameras are definitely in place in NY, NJ, CT and DE, as well as red light cameras at intersections. Those fines go a long way towards paying the bills at many police departments, especially the last weekend of the month, when any broken tail light is a $80 in the bag.