The Many Faces of US Politics...

[johnnycool]

A slight deviation from the topic at hand and I am sure it has been answered but can someone remind me why we use to see a confederate flag at cork games?

The "Rebel" County

Confederates were also known as Rebels

And a good dollop of either ignorance or indifference on the meaning of the flag too.

Of course that goes for a lot more than Cork supporters.

Dukes of Hazard, Lynyrd Skynryd, Tom Petty even used it as his stage backdrop during an 80s tour...

I'd hardly compare Cork rebel county supporters use of the flag  with that in the USA.
Context defines their usage of the flag not any agenda,  just as they used the flag of many countries with red white flags,
I see the Union flags outnumber the confed flag by 4-2.

Union flag ain't so hip looking to many people either.

maybe they are relatives of Patrick cleburne.

There's a supporter donning a mexican sombrera in there, no doubt to recall the memory of  that famous rebel Emiliano Zapata.

Batallón de San Patricio I think he's honouring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Battalion

I'd never heard of them until a friend of mine now living in San Antonio put up pictures of a monument to them on his travels in old Mexico.

[whitey]

No, your attempt to equate the GOP's decades-long southern strategy with Biden, at the request of Thurmond himself, delivering a eulogy at a friends funeral, is empty and either ignorant or dishonest.

What possible purpose could it serve Biden, a centre-left long-term Senator from Delaware, beyond doing a favour for the family of a friend?

If politics was the issue, Biden was more likely to offend his liberal Democrat base than to win any votes among conservatives (who wouldn't be voting for him anyway!).

Nobody reaches the top in politics anywhere without pandering to as many elements as possible of their party's base. Biden clearly thought there was a political benefit to him in pandering to Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base and its nostalgia for the Confederacy.

Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base who migrated to the GOP 35 years earlier. Those people are what Biden was concerned about? Not his liberal base back in Delaware, a state with more than a quarter of its population made up of minorities (more than 20% black)?

You go ahead and cling to your tiny bone and ignore all relevant details and facts. I'm done wasting my time with your bad faith "arguments ".

Jaysus....listening to Kamala during the debates, I could have sworn she said Joe was such a racist he was next in line to be the Grand Cyclops

[sid waddell]

The Confederacy was founded and sustained by Democrats and opposed by Republicans. Nothing that has happened in the past decade or any decade can rewrite the history of a century and a half previously, and even the history of Strom Thurmond's era.

No wonder you and the left in general want to dump all the historical evidence in school names, statues etc.

And now it is sustained by Republicans and fought bitterly against by Democrats

Your last sentence sort of gives the game away as to your views on the Confederacy

...so bitterly that they nominate Thurmond's eulogist for President.

My sides.

So what's your point?

Is it that you want America to vote for somebody like AOC for president? Or perhaps somebody like Bree Newsome Bass, who literally climbed the flag pole on top of the South Carolina state house to remove the Confederate flag? Somebody like them with similar opinions?

Is Biden too centrist for you? Too conciliatory? Is he too far to the right?

Are you now saying you want all public monuments and symbols which celebrate anything to do with the Confederacy removed?

[J70]

No, your attempt to equate the GOP's decades-long southern strategy with Biden, at the request of Thurmond himself, delivering a eulogy at a friends funeral, is empty and either ignorant or dishonest.

What possible purpose could it serve Biden, a centre-left long-term Senator from Delaware, beyond doing a favour for the family of a friend?

If politics was the issue, Biden was more likely to offend his liberal Democrat base than to win any votes among conservatives (who wouldn't be voting for him anyway!).

Nobody reaches the top in politics anywhere without pandering to as many elements as possible of their party's base. Biden clearly thought there was a political benefit to him in pandering to Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base and its nostalgia for the Confederacy.

Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base who migrated to the GOP 35 years earlier. Those people are what Biden was concerned about? Not his liberal base back in Delaware, a state with more than a quarter of its population made up of minorities (more than 20% black)?

You go ahead and cling to your tiny bone and ignore all relevant details and facts. I'm done wasting my time with your bad faith "arguments ".

Jaysus....listening to Kamala during the debates, I could have sworn she said Joe was such a racist he was next in line to be the Grand Cyclops

And?

[five points]

So what's your point?

Is it that you want America to vote for somebody like AOC for president? Or perhaps somebody like Bree Newsome Bass, who literally climbed the flag pole on top of the South Carolina state house to remove the Confederate flag? Somebody like them with similar opinions?

Is Biden too centrist for you? Too conciliatory? Is he too far to the right?

Are you now saying you want all public monuments and symbols which celebrate anything to do with the Confederacy removed?

My point is simple: Democrats are on weak ground if they want to claim moral superiority over the GOP on the Confederacy.

I think Biden erred in giving Thurmond's eulogy but I don't count it as disqualifying him. Overall he's a decent sort and he's no more a racist than any of us. I think he will do ok as President. I hope he steers clear of foreign wars as much as he can. I despise the warmonger element has infected both US parties. Had Trump bent to them, I think he'd still be President.

This has nothing to do with public monuments. No mob should be allowed demolish, remove or seriously deface any public property.

[sid waddell]

So what's your point?

Is it that you want America to vote for somebody like AOC for president? Or perhaps somebody like Bree Newsome Bass, who literally climbed the flag pole on top of the South Carolina state house to remove the Confederate flag? Somebody like them with similar opinions?

Is Biden too centrist for you? Too conciliatory? Is he too far to the right?

Are you now saying you want all public monuments and symbols which celebrate anything to do with the Confederacy removed?

My point is simple: Democrats are on weak ground if they want to claim moral superiority over the GOP on the Confederacy.

I think Biden erred in giving Thurmond's eulogy but I don't count it as disqualifying him. Overall he's a decent sort and he's no more a racist than any of us. I think he will do ok as President. I hope he steers clear of foreign wars as much as he can. I despise the warmonger element has infected both US parties. Had Trump bent to them, I think he'd still be President.

This has nothing to do with public monuments. No mob should be allowed demolish, remove or seriously deface any public property.

You didn't answer the questions

Do you think Biden is too far to the right on matters of race?

Would you prefer an AOC type or a Bree Newsome Bass type who has no truck whatsoever with people who sustained Confederate type speech, or symbols?

Do you want all public monuments and symbols which in any way celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Please answer these questions - they're important

[five points]

You didn't answer the questions

Do you think Biden is too far to the right on matters of race?

Would you prefer an AOC type or a Bree Newsome Bass type who has no truck whatsoever with people who sustained Confederate type speech, or symbols?

Do you want all public monuments and symbols which in any way celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Please answer these questions - they're important

What does "too far to the right on matters of race" mean? Racism infects left and right. Some of the most leftwing regimes in history were irredeemably racist. Some of the most famous leftwing icons in history were also racist. Ditto rightwing regimes and icons.

I have a low opinion of AOC and I don't know who Bree Newsome Bass is.

I think it's a ridiculous and counterproductive idea to all remove statues and monuments, but have no objection if particular monuments are removed for good reason and through proper channels. There are good reasons why local authorities across the developed world try their best to preserve the fabric of towns and cities and I don't agree with overriding that.

[whitey]

No, your attempt to equate the GOP's decades-long southern strategy with Biden, at the request of Thurmond himself, delivering a eulogy at a friends funeral, is empty and either ignorant or dishonest.

What possible purpose could it serve Biden, a centre-left long-term Senator from Delaware, beyond doing a favour for the family of a friend?

If politics was the issue, Biden was more likely to offend his liberal Democrat base than to win any votes among conservatives (who wouldn't be voting for him anyway!).

Nobody reaches the top in politics anywhere without pandering to as many elements as possible of their party's base. Biden clearly thought there was a political benefit to him in pandering to Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base and its nostalgia for the Confederacy.

Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base who migrated to the GOP 35 years earlier. Those people are what Biden was concerned about? Not his liberal base back in Delaware, a state with more than a quarter of its population made up of minorities (more than 20% black)?

You go ahead and cling to your tiny bone and ignore all relevant details and facts. I'm done wasting my time with your bad faith "arguments ".

Jaysus....listening to Kamala during the debates, I could have sworn she said Joe was such a racist he was next in line to be the Grand Cyclops

And?

Maybe Kamala was right and he is a racist

[J70]

No, your attempt to equate the GOP's decades-long southern strategy with Biden, at the request of Thurmond himself, delivering a eulogy at a friends funeral, is empty and either ignorant or dishonest.

What possible purpose could it serve Biden, a centre-left long-term Senator from Delaware, beyond doing a favour for the family of a friend?

If politics was the issue, Biden was more likely to offend his liberal Democrat base than to win any votes among conservatives (who wouldn't be voting for him anyway!).

Nobody reaches the top in politics anywhere without pandering to as many elements as possible of their party's base. Biden clearly thought there was a political benefit to him in pandering to Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base and its nostalgia for the Confederacy.

Thurmond's racist southern Democrat base who migrated to the GOP 35 years earlier. Those people are what Biden was concerned about? Not his liberal base back in Delaware, a state with more than a quarter of its population made up of minorities (more than 20% black)?

You go ahead and cling to your tiny bone and ignore all relevant details and facts. I'm done wasting my time with your bad faith "arguments ".

Jaysus....listening to Kamala during the debates, I could have sworn she said Joe was such a racist he was next in line to be the Grand Cyclops

And?

Maybe Kamala was right and he is a racist

er.. ok.

[J70]

You didn't answer the questions

Do you think Biden is too far to the right on matters of race?

Would you prefer an AOC type or a Bree Newsome Bass type who has no truck whatsoever with people who sustained Confederate type speech, or symbols?

Do you want all public monuments and symbols which in any way celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Please answer these questions - they're important

What does "too far to the right on matters of race" mean? Racism infects left and right. Some of the most leftwing regimes in history were irredeemably racist. Some of the most famous leftwing icons in history were also racist. Ditto rightwing regimes and icons.

I have a low opinion of AOC and I don't know who Bree Newsome Bass is.

I think it's a ridiculous and counterproductive idea to all remove statues and monuments, but have no objection if particular monuments are removed for good reason and through proper channels. There are good reasons why local authorities across the developed world try their best to preserve the fabric of towns and cities and I don't agree with overriding that.

I agree "proper channels" is important and mobs tearing down statues is not productive, for the most part.

[sid waddell]

You didn't answer the questions

Do you think Biden is too far to the right on matters of race?

Would you prefer an AOC type or a Bree Newsome Bass type who has no truck whatsoever with people who sustained Confederate type speech, or symbols?

Do you want all public monuments and symbols which in any way celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Please answer these questions - they're important

What does "too far to the right on matters of race" mean? Racism infects left and right. Some of the most leftwing regimes in history were irredeemably racist. Some of the most famous leftwing icons in history were also racist. Ditto rightwing regimes and icons.

I have a low opinion of AOC and I don't know who Bree Newsome Bass is.

I think it's a ridiculous and counterproductive idea to all remove statues and monuments, but have no objection if particular monuments are removed for good reason and through proper channels. There are good reasons why local authorities across the developed world try their best to preserve the fabric of towns and cities and I don't agree with overriding that.

You're obfuscating

You came in here to try and make out Biden was not far enough to the left on matters of race, that he was not anti-Confederate enough

Yet you refuse to reveal whether you yourself had a problem with Biden delivering a eulogy for Strom Thurmond

You say you have a "low" opinion of AOC - would that "low" opinion be connected to her stance on matters of race by any chance?

So you don't want all statues and symbols which celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Why not? These statues and symbols are celebrating not just racism, but slavery

So why shouldn't they all be removed?

Given your stance on statues and symbols and that if they are removed it's important they be done through "proper channels", I presume you had a problem with people knocking down the Berlin Wall or pulling down other Communist statues in the former iron curtain countries in 1989

I didn't

[five points]

You didn't answer the questions

Do you think Biden is too far to the right on matters of race?

Would you prefer an AOC type or a Bree Newsome Bass type who has no truck whatsoever with people who sustained Confederate type speech, or symbols?

Do you want all public monuments and symbols which in any way celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Please answer these questions - they're important

What does "too far to the right on matters of race" mean? Racism infects left and right. Some of the most leftwing regimes in history were irredeemably racist. Some of the most famous leftwing icons in history were also racist. Ditto rightwing regimes and icons.

I have a low opinion of AOC and I don't know who Bree Newsome Bass is.

I think it's a ridiculous and counterproductive idea to all remove statues and monuments, but have no objection if particular monuments are removed for good reason and through proper channels. There are good reasons why local authorities across the developed world try their best to preserve the fabric of towns and cities and I don't agree with overriding that.

You're obfuscating

You came in here to try and make out Biden was not far enough to the left on matters of race, that he was not anti-Confederate enough

Yet you refuse to reveal whether you yourself had a problem with Biden delivering a eulogy for Strom Thurmond

You say you have a "low" opinion of AOC - would that "low" opinion be connected to her stance on matters of race by any chance?

So you don't want all statues and symbols which celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Why not? These statues and symbols are celebrating not just racism, but slavery

So why shouldn't they all be removed?

Given your stance on statues and symbols and that if they are removed it's important they be done through "proper channels", I presume you had a problem with people knocking down the Berlin Wall or pulling down other Communist statues in the former iron curtain countries in 1989

I didn't

I don't have to answer your questions.  You didn't answer mine. And you are not my interrogator. I gave my answers in good faith but you seem hopeful that I will say something that will paint me as a racist. I'm not playing that game.

I've told you that I'm happy to give Biden the benefit of the doubt on Thurmond.

I think it's regrettable that the Berlin Wall was almost entirely demolished, but no more than that.

There are processes in place in every city and country to remove statues where this may be deemed necessary. Allow these processes to function and do their job.

[sid waddell]

You didn't answer the questions

Do you think Biden is too far to the right on matters of race?

Would you prefer an AOC type or a Bree Newsome Bass type who has no truck whatsoever with people who sustained Confederate type speech, or symbols?

Do you want all public monuments and symbols which in any way celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Please answer these questions - they're important

What does "too far to the right on matters of race" mean? Racism infects left and right. Some of the most leftwing regimes in history were irredeemably racist. Some of the most famous leftwing icons in history were also racist. Ditto rightwing regimes and icons.

I have a low opinion of AOC and I don't know who Bree Newsome Bass is.

I think it's a ridiculous and counterproductive idea to all remove statues and monuments, but have no objection if particular monuments are removed for good reason and through proper channels. There are good reasons why local authorities across the developed world try their best to preserve the fabric of towns and cities and I don't agree with overriding that.

You're obfuscating

You came in here to try and make out Biden was not far enough to the left on matters of race, that he was not anti-Confederate enough

Yet you refuse to reveal whether you yourself had a problem with Biden delivering a eulogy for Strom Thurmond

You say you have a "low" opinion of AOC - would that "low" opinion be connected to her stance on matters of race by any chance?

So you don't want all statues and symbols which celebrate the Confederacy removed?

Why not? These statues and symbols are celebrating not just racism, but slavery

So why shouldn't they all be removed?

Given your stance on statues and symbols and that if they are removed it's important they be done through "proper channels", I presume you had a problem with people knocking down the Berlin Wall or pulling down other Communist statues in the former iron curtain countries in 1989

I didn't

I don't have to answer your questions.  You didn't answer mine. And you are not my interrogator. I gave my answers in good faith but you seem hopeful that I will say something that will paint me as a racist. I'm not playing that game.

I've told you that I'm happy to give Biden the benefit of the doubt on Thurmond.

I think it's regrettable that the Berlin Wall was almost entirely demolished, but no more than that.

There are processes in place in every city and country to remove statues where this may be deemed necessary. Allow these processes to function and do their job.

Again you're totally obfuscating

In your opinion, was Biden wrong to deliver a eulogy at Strom Thurmond's funeral?

If so, why?

If you don't believe so, why bring it up?

Do you disagree with AOC's stance on race matters? If so, how?

Why should any public statues and symbols which celebrate the Confederacy, and which which thus celebrate slavery, remain standing, or in official use?

Did you, on November 9th, 1989, when you presumably watched the pictures of people in Berlin drilling and hammering the Berlin Wall, say to yourself, "oh this is wrong, they should be going through the proper channels"?

[five points]

Again you're totally obfuscating

That's my privilege. I can answer if and when I want. Or I can ignore you. This is not an interrogation.

In your opinion, was Biden wrong to deliver a eulogy at Strom Thurmond's funeral?

Yes

If so, why?

I've said why.

If you don't believe so, why bring it up?

I've told you why I brought it up.

Do you disagree with AOC's stance on race matters? If so, how?

I consider her a race baiter and race hustler. I don't have to justify that opinion and I'm not asking you to agree with it.

Why should any public statues and symbols which celebrate the Confederacy, and which which thus celebrate slavery, remain standing, or in official use?

That's not up to me to decide.

Did you, on November 9th, 1989, when you presumably watched the pictures of people in Berlin drilling and hammering the Berlin Wall, say to yourself, "oh this is wrong, they should be going through the proper channels"?

I can't even remember where I was that night. Can you? I probably didn't say that to myself but I'd like to think that I've informed my opinion on many topics over the past 31 years. Maybe your opinions on our built and natural environment have been frozen since 1989?

[sid waddell]

Again you're totally obfuscating

That's my privilege. I can answer if and when I want. Or I can ignore you. This is not an interrogation.


It is your privilege but it's a discussion forum - generally people obfuscate when they've been asked questions they don't want to answer because they can't stand over their views

In your opinion, was Biden wrong to deliver a eulogy at Strom Thurmond's funeral?

Yes

I would agree - but in my view he did the wrong thing for the right reasons - he did it out of kindness - that doesn't mean I think he was right

If so, why?

I've said why.

Have you? I haven't seen where? Could you reiterate, reference or or copy and paste where you have done this?

If you don't believe so, why bring it up?

I've told you why I brought it up.

Again, where?

Do you disagree with AOC's stance on race matters? If so, how?

I consider her a race baiter and race hustler.  I'm not asking you to agree.

How exactly is she a "race baiter"? What is a race baiter? Do you believe the predominant ideology of the Republican party is of "race baiting"? Or outright racism?

Why should any public statues and symbols which celebrate the Confederacy, and which which thus celebrate slavery, remain standing, or in official use?

That's not up to me to decide.

It isn't up to you decide but it wouldn't trouble you too much to give an opinion, especially given that you have previously implied or stated that not all Confederate statues and symbols should be removed from official use

Did you, on November 9th, 1989, when you presumably watched the pictures of people in Berlin drilling and hammering the Berlin Wall, say to yourself, "oh this is wrong, they should be going through the proper channels"?

I can't even remember where I was that night. Can you? I probably didn't say that to myself but I'd like to think that I've informed my opinion on many topics over the past 31 years. Maybe your opinions on our built and natural environment have been frozen since 1989?

Yes I can, I was watching the television in my front room, and it felt like we were watching something wonderful in history

People knocking down the Berlin Wall that night did not "go through the proper channels" - they took matters into their own hands, literally - I was lucky enough that I got to hammer out a small piece of it myself the following July when I visited Berlin, I still have it somewhere

Small parts of the Berlin Wall do indeed remain, by the way