Messages

[unionists have been proven time and again to change or bend their 'principles' for the lure of money]

You wont ever want to 'get it'  - its about the economy – if the economic situation was right, jobs were had for the peoples of the 6 counties outwith the civil service and jobs were abundant again for southern citizens, then only apathy would halt a reunification.

Flipping that over, are you saying that nationalists would be happy to maintain partition if the economics made sense? Or are you saying that the unionist position isn't as principled and is 'easier bought'?

yes - this also kills off evil myles' argument (above) ...once everyone is ok and money in everyones pocket, not many want to change the status quo and risk upsetting the apple cart.
unionists have been proven time and again to change or bend their 'principles' for the lure of money - rem a few short years ago would 'never never never' cross the border...then when there was money to be made hand ovr fist in the Dot com and Celtic Tiger times, they quickly forgot these 'principles' and broke all (our) speed limits to get to Dublin, the jobs and the money !!

Irishmen moving abroad to get a bigger wage, even to the land of "the enemy"  is hardly unique to Unionists, is it?

The simple fact is that for over a decade, whilst the ROI economy appeared to be powering ahead, and the NI economy was relatively static, opposition to a United Ireland amongst NI Unionists remained as strong as ever.

Simultaneously, support for a United Ireland amongst (NI) Nationalists plateaued.

Them's the facts, no matter how much you blether and squirm. 

I'm joining this bit of the debate a bit late in the day but I've always thought that support or otherwise for a United Ireland has little to do with money.  As EG said when the Free State economy was on the up and NI's was the basket case it's always been and always will be support and opposition to an UI didn't change much.  I don't see that changing much now that the South is in terminal decline and the UK is only a couple of laps behind.

From my experience of friends from the North, middle class and third level educated Northern Unionists seem almost open minded to the concept of a United Ireland especially after a few beers. Middle class and third level educated Northern Nationalists appear to be willing to accept the status quo.

What beer is that MGHU...it must be rocket fuel!!

[I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.]

Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties?

I think the fact that most protestants in the wee 6 are happy being British is also a factor.

Indeed.

Northern Ireland would have to shape up economically before its British parents could consider offering its hand
in marriage to the south.

Our British parents fellow Nations of the United Kingdom have no more right or authority to "hand" us to anyone, than we have to hand them over to anyone, for that is not how Unions work.

Which is actually a pretty good thing for the ROI, otherwise, the EU would be just as likely to want to "hand" the ROI over eg to the Yanks.

And in any case, should NI "shape up economically", why would either party (GB or NI) want to sever the link?

If the Union has held together during eg the Great Depression, World War II, 30 years of Republican Terrorism and Alan f**king Green on the wireless, I fail to see how even a downturn  in the NI economy, never mind an upturn, would change that.

I know EG but the South have had George "Danger Here" Hamilton to suffer.

[unionists have been proven time and again to change or bend their 'principles' for the lure of money]

You wont ever want to 'get it'  - its about the economy – if the economic situation was right, jobs were had for the peoples of the 6 counties outwith the civil service and jobs were abundant again for southern citizens, then only apathy would halt a reunification.

Flipping that over, are you saying that nationalists would be happy to maintain partition if the economics made sense? Or are you saying that the unionist position isn't as principled and is 'easier bought'?

yes - this also kills off evil myles' argument (above) ...once everyone is ok and money in everyones pocket, not many want to change the status quo and risk upsetting the apple cart.
unionists have been proven time and again to change or bend their 'principles' for the lure of money - rem a few short years ago would 'never never never' cross the border...then when there was money to be made hand ovr fist in the Dot com and Celtic Tiger times, they quickly forgot these 'principles' and broke all (our) speed limits to get to Dublin, the jobs and the money !!

Irishmen moving abroad to get a bigger wage, even to the land of "the enemy"  is hardly unique to Unionists, is it?

The simple fact is that for over a decade, whilst the ROI economy appeared to be powering ahead, and the NI economy was relatively static, opposition to a United Ireland amongst NI Unionists remained as strong as ever.

Simultaneously, support for a United Ireland amongst (NI) Nationalists plateaued.

Them's the facts, no matter how much you blether and squirm. 

I'm joining this bit of the debate a bit late in the day but I've always thought that support or otherwise for a United Ireland has little to do with money.  As EG said when the Free State economy was on the up and NI's was the basket case it's always been and always will be support and opposition to an UI didn't change much.  I don't see that changing much now that the South is in terminal decline and the UK is only a couple of laps behind.

This Irishman is not entirely* happy with the status quo.

He is also very confident that the status quo will prevail at least long enough to see him out.


* - It's those f**kers in the UK poaching some of our cricketers

There are reports that the instore music playing at the time was the "Derry Air"

[is]

Mel Gibson's mother is actually from Longford.

She's actually from Colmcille, and his full name is Mel Colmcille Gibson apparently.

Where the f**k is Colmcille?

Up in the north west, sometimes referred to by the BBC as Londonderrycolumnkill

After a slow start Ramires seems to have got better with every game, I'd say he'll be a key player for Chelsea next season and hopefully beyond.  Alex had a good start at Chelsea but he has been hampered by injury this season and last.  Will be 29 in June so still a couple of seasons left in him.

Some cheek, right enough

["We do not anticipate job losses from or related to this restructuring,"]

From the Irish Times:

The Quinn Group is to undergo major financial and corporate restructuring following the appointment of a receiver to the Quinn family's share in the business by Anglo Irish Bank.  Seán Quinn and his family will no longer have any role in the management, operations or ownership of the group under the plan, which was announced today.  Mr Quinn was unable to repay €2.8 billion in loans that built up through borrowings from Anglo Irish that he used to fund massive share investments in the bank. Other lenders to the Quinn Group are owed some €1.28 billion.

Kieran Wallace of KPMG has been appointed share receiver and will take control of the family's interests in the group. Mr Wallace will oversee the appointment of a new board of directors.  Anglo chief executive Mike Aynsley said the appointment would have no impact on the day-to-day operation of the company. "A share receiver is different from normal receiver, which takes over the assets of a company," he said.  Mr Aynsley said that there "will no doubt be some write offs" associated with the overall level of debt owed to Anglo Irish Bank by Mr Quinn.

Quinn Group chairman Pat O'Neill said an agreement in principle had been reached with its lenders on a way to restructure its debt. This is expected to relieve the manufacturing side of the group of some €500 million of debt over a period of five years.  The Quinn Group is involved in the manufacture of glass, insulation materials, packaging, plastics and radiators. More than 2,600 are employed in the group's manufacturing activities, with 1,000 of the jobs in Ireland.  Mr O'Neill said the restructuring would provide financial stability and sustainability to the group.  "We do not anticipate job losses from or related to this restructuring," he said. "On the contrary it will help to protect jobs. There are no plans whatever to break-up the manufacturing businesses."

Minister for Finance Michael Noonan welcomed the debt restructuring plan agreed between Anglo Irish and the Quinn lenders. "This structure will enable the good and strong businesses to continue to trade and grow. It is particularly important that there will be no impact on employment, on trade creditors or on day-to-day operations of the Quinn Group," he said.  Lenders to the Quinn Group, including Irish and other international institutions, said they looked forward to working with the newly appointed board.  "The debt restructuring plan includes a substantial debt reduction on the group's manufacturing operations which will provide the foundation for the Quinn Group's future growth and success," they said in a statement.

The Quinn Group has also announced the appointment of a new chief executive. Paul O'Brien (43), currently a non-executive director of Quinn Group having joined the board last November, is to take over from Liam McCaffrey.  Mr O'Brien was chief executive of Four Leaf Investment NV, which operates a number of hotels in Belgium and France. He previously worked with Compaq and UTV Media plc.

It was also announced today that a joint venture of US insurer Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank have been selected as the preferred bidder for the general insurance business of Quinn Insurance Ltd.  While the deal has yet to be finalised and the contracts of sale have yet to be signed, it is envisaged there will no job losses among the insurance firms 1,570 employees in the Republic or Northern Ireland as a result.  If successful, the bid would see Liberty Mutual, the fifth largest insurer in the US, take complete responsibility for the operation of the new business.  Joint administrators Michael McAteer and Paul McCann said Anglo would have no involvement in the day-to-day operation of the new company, but would act in a loan recovery capacity.

Quinn Insurance was placed in administration in March of last year at the request of the Financial Regulator.  Mr O'Neill said Mr Quinn had deservedly earned the respect for the work he did starting and building up the Quinn Group businesses.  "Sadly, in more recent years a number of well-publicised events have left the manufacturing group with substantial borrowings which, quite simply, the group could not service. If these debts were not restructured, the businesses could not survive in their present form," he said.  Mr Quinn stepped down as head of the group in May of last year. His family owned as much as 28 per cent of Anglo Irish Bank at one point, having built their shareholding through contracts for difference, which did not require them to reveal their stakebuilding.  The stock declined rapidly as the financial crisis worsened, eventually wiping out Mr Quinn's €2.8 billion investment after Anglo was nationalised in January 2009.

 

Paul McCartney's mother was a Mohan from Monaghan
Kate Bush's mother was a Daly from...Clare??
Neil Morrissey (Men Behaving Badly), family from Cullyhanna
Elvis Costello's real name is Declan Patrick McManus so I'd suggest some Irish input there

My duaghter assures me yer wan who plays Becky in Coronation St is from Kerry??

Sir Michael O'Dwyer, governor of the Punjab at the time of the massacre at Amritsar was a Tipp man.

Jim Allister

[until they were sent back by the Northern Ireland government]

Some interesting section in that Wikipedia (copyright Evil Genius) article on the Belfast Blitz

By 6am, within two hours of the request for assistance, 71 firemen with 13 fire tenders from Dundalk, Drogheda, Dublin, and Dún Laoghaire were on their way to cross the Irish border to assist their Belfast colleagues. In each station volunteers were asked for, as it was beyond their normal duties. In every instance, all volunteered. They remained for three days, until they were sent back by the Northern Ireland government

Taoiseach Eamon De Valera formally protested to Berlin

Two hundred and twenty thousand people fled from the city. Many "arrived in Fermanagh having nothing with them only night shirts". Ten thousand "officially" crossed the border. Over 500 received care from the Irish Red Cross in Dublin

Maybe the Queen will say "Thank You" at Croke Park

Also interestingly:

The Government of Northern Ireland lacked the will, energy and capacity to cope with a major crisis when it came. James Craig, Lord Craigavon, who was Prime Minister of Northern Ireland since its inception in 1921, until his death on November 24, 1940, had become senile. Richard Dawson Bates, was the Home Affairs Minister. According to Sir Wilfred Spender, the cabinet secretary was "incapable of giving his responsible officers coherent directions on policy" – actually, he was drunk for most of each day

Lord Craigavon died on Sunday, 24 November 1940. He was succeeded by John Miller Andrews, then 70 years old, who was no more capable of dealing with the situation than his predecessor. The minutes of his cabinet meetings show more discussion on protecting the bronze statue of Carson than the provision of air-raid shelters

Should Martin McGuinness and the Executive apologise for the conduct of its predecessor...perhaps during a visit to Windsor Park

There is no doubt that the preparations for, and response to, the threat of German air attack by the Government of NI was woefully and scandalously negligent.

That does not alter my central thesis which is that for all that NI undoubtedly benefits economically from being in the UK, membership of such a Union works both ways.

Indeed, so close-run was the struggle to defy the Nazis in 1940, that in my humble opinion and with little evidence to support this conjecture it is undeniable that had it not been for the contribution* to the War Effort of (even so small a region as) NI , the War would very likely have been lost.

Which is only like pointing out to those people in ROI who are presently complaining about the financial strictures being imposed by the Germans etc, that they weren't so disgruntled when formerly the (German-financed) EU was pumping billions into the ROI during the 70's, 80's and 90's etc.

Rough with Smooth, rough with smooth...

P.S. I don't know how much Dawson Bates was drinking at the time, but of itself, that wouldn't necessarily have disqualified him from doing a job. For let's face it, it didn't seem to do this man too much harm:
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/myths/myths/he-was-an-alcohol-abuser


* - Ships, aircraft, food, bases, volunteers etc

Fixed that for you there EG   I think drinking on the job might disqualify you from office if you are incapble of giving coherent policy direction

[until they were sent back by the Northern Ireland government]

Some interesting section in that Wikipedia (copyright Evil Genius) article on the Belfast Blitz

By 6am, within two hours of the request for assistance, 71 firemen with 13 fire tenders from Dundalk, Drogheda, Dublin, and Dún Laoghaire were on their way to cross the Irish border to assist their Belfast colleagues. In each station volunteers were asked for, as it was beyond their normal duties. In every instance, all volunteered. They remained for three days, until they were sent back by the Northern Ireland government

Taoiseach Eamon De Valera formally protested to Berlin

Two hundred and twenty thousand people fled from the city. Many "arrived in Fermanagh having nothing with them only night shirts". Ten thousand "officially" crossed the border. Over 500 received care from the Irish Red Cross in Dublin

Maybe the Queen will say "Thank You" at Croke Park

Also interestingly:

The Government of Northern Ireland lacked the will, energy and capacity to cope with a major crisis when it came. James Craig, Lord Craigavon, who was Prime Minister of Northern Ireland since its inception in 1921, until his death on November 24, 1940, had become senile. Richard Dawson Bates, was the Home Affairs Minister. According to Sir Wilfred Spender, the cabinet secretary was "incapable of giving his responsible officers coherent directions on policy" – actually, he was drunk for most of each day

Lord Craigavon died on Sunday, 24 November 1940. He was succeeded by John Miller Andrews, then 70 years old, who was no more capable of dealing with the situation than his predecessor. The minutes of his cabinet meetings show more discussion on protecting the bronze statue of Carson than the provision of air-raid shelters

Should Martin McGuinness and the Executive apologise for the conduct of its predecessor...perhaps during a visit to Windsor Park

Well done Utd...I thought they were just the better team over the two games.  Chelsea were better last night esp in the first 30 mins and whenever Drogba came on but nowhere near good enough to win this competition.  Giggs confirms the old adage that the game is played with the head as much as the feet.

However MU will need to improve substantially to threaten Barcelona, RM...or maybe even Schalke/Inter