Get ready to wave them flegs - Lily Windsor's coming

[gallsman]

... my point is that when politicians like Obama come to Ireland, their motive is usually to suck up to the "Irish-American" vote back home. Which is fair enough, I suppose, since that is what politicians do.

However, my point is that in doing so, they nowadays invariably hark back to one Irish heritage (i.e. Catholic/Gaelic/Nationalist etc), whilst completely ignoring another equally valid Irish heritage (i.e. Ulster-Scots/Presbyterian/Loyalist etc).

I'm not sure I understand your motivation in trumpeting this perceived characteristic of US politicians on the make. It reads at worst like an attempt to denigrate the contribution of 19th century Irish emigrants, at best like a bit of a whinge.

In either case, I don't think your observations do anything to redress the lack of regard for the "Scotch-Irish" tradition that you bemoan. Surely it speaks little for the general perception of that heritage that these people shun it, deny it and perceive any association with it and whatever it may betoken as an electoral liability.

They call them W.A.S.P.'s its generally not a compliment.

WASP doesn't necessarily refer to Scotch-Irish. It covers a much wider spectrum.

[Evil Genius]

... my point is that when politicians like Obama come to Ireland, their motive is usually to suck up to the "Irish-American" vote back home. Which is fair enough, I suppose, since that is what politicians do.

However, my point is that in doing so, they nowadays invariably hark back to one Irish heritage (i.e. Catholic/Gaelic/Nationalist etc), whilst completely ignoring another equally valid Irish heritage (i.e. Ulster-Scots/Presbyterian/Loyalist etc).

I'm not sure I understand your motivation in trumpeting this perceived characteristic of US politicians on the make. It reads at worst like an attempt to denigrate the contribution of 19th century Irish emigrants, at best like a bit of a whinge.

In either case, I don't think your observations do anything to redress the lack of regard for the "Scotch-Irish" tradition that you bemoan. Surely it speaks little for the general perception of that heritage that these people shun it, deny it and perceive any association with it and whatever it may betoken as an electoral liability.

They call them W.A.S.P.'s its generally not a compliment.

WASP doesn't necessarily refer to Scotch-Irish. It covers a much wider spectrum.

Indeed. And no Ulster-Scot worth the name would thank you for including him in such a category when used in its original meaning and context. 

I mean to say: White certainly, Protestant ditto, but "Anglo Saxon"? 

[gallsman]

... my point is that when politicians like Obama come to Ireland, their motive is usually to suck up to the "Irish-American" vote back home. Which is fair enough, I suppose, since that is what politicians do.

However, my point is that in doing so, they nowadays invariably hark back to one Irish heritage (i.e. Catholic/Gaelic/Nationalist etc), whilst completely ignoring another equally valid Irish heritage (i.e. Ulster-Scots/Presbyterian/Loyalist etc).

I'm not sure I understand your motivation in trumpeting this perceived characteristic of US politicians on the make. It reads at worst like an attempt to denigrate the contribution of 19th century Irish emigrants, at best like a bit of a whinge.

In either case, I don't think your observations do anything to redress the lack of regard for the "Scotch-Irish" tradition that you bemoan. Surely it speaks little for the general perception of that heritage that these people shun it, deny it and perceive any association with it and whatever it may betoken as an electoral liability.

They call them W.A.S.P.'s its generally not a compliment.

WASP doesn't necessarily refer to Scotch-Irish. It covers a much wider spectrum.

Indeed. And no Ulster-Scot worth the name would thank you for including him in such a category when used in its original meaning and context. 

I mean to say: White certainly, Protestant ditto, but "Anglo Saxon"? 

Most people who consider themselves Ulster-Scots wouldn't be intelligent enough to be branded a WASP.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

... my point is that when politicians like Obama come to Ireland, their motive is usually to suck up to the "Irish-American" vote back home. Which is fair enough, I suppose, since that is what politicians do.

However, my point is that in doing so, they nowadays invariably hark back to one Irish heritage (i.e. Catholic/Gaelic/Nationalist etc), whilst completely ignoring another equally valid Irish heritage (i.e. Ulster-Scots/Presbyterian/Loyalist etc).

I'm not sure I understand your motivation in trumpeting this perceived characteristic of US politicians on the make. It reads at worst like an attempt to denigrate the contribution of 19th century Irish emigrants, at best like a bit of a whinge.

In either case, I don't think your observations do anything to redress the lack of regard for the "Scotch-Irish" tradition that you bemoan. Surely it speaks little for the general perception of that heritage that these people shun it, deny it and perceive any association with it and whatever it may betoken as an electoral liability.

They call them W.A.S.P.'s its generally not a compliment.

WASP doesn't necessarily refer to Scotch-Irish. It covers a much wider spectrum.

Indeed. And no Ulster-Scot worth the name would thank you for including him in such a category when used in its original meaning and context. 

I mean to say: White certainly, Protestant ditto, but "Anglo Saxon"? 

Lowlanders in general were not Gaels, Norse, Norman or Cumbrics (Britons or North Welsh) they were Angles. They are of Germanic stock, Very-North Proto-English. Most certainly not part of the Celtic, Nordic, French/Nordic Cultures of Scotland.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

... my point is that when politicians like Obama come to Ireland, their motive is usually to suck up to the "Irish-American" vote back home. Which is fair enough, I suppose, since that is what politicians do.

However, my point is that in doing so, they nowadays invariably hark back to one Irish heritage (i.e. Catholic/Gaelic/Nationalist etc), whilst completely ignoring another equally valid Irish heritage (i.e. Ulster-Scots/Presbyterian/Loyalist etc).

I'm not sure I understand your motivation in trumpeting this perceived characteristic of US politicians on the make. It reads at worst like an attempt to denigrate the contribution of 19th century Irish emigrants, at best like a bit of a whinge.

In either case, I don't think your observations do anything to redress the lack of regard for the "Scotch-Irish" tradition that you bemoan. Surely it speaks little for the general perception of that heritage that these people shun it, deny it and perceive any association with it and whatever it may betoken as an electoral liability.

They call them W.A.S.P.'s its generally not a compliment.

WASP doesn't necessarily refer to Scotch-Irish. It covers a much wider spectrum.

Indeed. And no Ulster-Scot worth the name would thank you for including him in such a category when used in its original meaning and context. 

I mean to say: White certainly, Protestant ditto, but "Anglo Saxon"? 

Most people who consider themselves Ulster-Scots wouldn't be intelligent enough to be branded a WASP.

In the Northern States they would often fall into the WASP category and in the Southern States into the Hilly Billy (or Bills of the Hills) in Appalachia & they the heart and Soul of the progressive  Bible Belt.

Now the Green tradition Irish we give you Boston, Chicago and New York 

[Evil Genius]

... my point is that when politicians like Obama come to Ireland, their motive is usually to suck up to the "Irish-American" vote back home. Which is fair enough, I suppose, since that is what politicians do.

However, my point is that in doing so, they nowadays invariably hark back to one Irish heritage (i.e. Catholic/Gaelic/Nationalist etc), whilst completely ignoring another equally valid Irish heritage (i.e. Ulster-Scots/Presbyterian/Loyalist etc).

I'm not sure I understand your motivation in trumpeting this perceived characteristic of US politicians on the make. It reads at worst like an attempt to denigrate the contribution of 19th century Irish emigrants, at best like a bit of a whinge.

In either case, I don't think your observations do anything to redress the lack of regard for the "Scotch-Irish" tradition that you bemoan. Surely it speaks little for the general perception of that heritage that these people shun it, deny it and perceive any association with it and whatever it may betoken as an electoral liability.

They call them W.A.S.P.'s its generally not a compliment.

WASP doesn't necessarily refer to Scotch-Irish. It covers a much wider spectrum.

Indeed. And no Ulster-Scot worth the name would thank you for including him in such a category when used in its original meaning and context. 

I mean to say: White certainly, Protestant ditto, but "Anglo Saxon"? 

Most people who consider themselves Ulster-Scots wouldn't be intelligent enough to be branded a WASP.

An Ulster-Scot walks into a petshop (in August, btw) and says to the owner:
"Ah'd like fur tae buy a wasp, if ye plaise".
The owner replies: "I'm sorry, Sir, but we don't sell wasps."
To which Oor Wullie replies: "Well ye've got wan in the windae..."

Anyway, with your moniker, how do we know you don't have a bit of wasp in you yourself?
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/224197/gall-wasp

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

... my point is that when politicians like Obama come to Ireland, their motive is usually to suck up to the "Irish-American" vote back home. Which is fair enough, I suppose, since that is what politicians do.

However, my point is that in doing so, they nowadays invariably hark back to one Irish heritage (i.e. Catholic/Gaelic/Nationalist etc), whilst completely ignoring another equally valid Irish heritage (i.e. Ulster-Scots/Presbyterian/Loyalist etc).

I'm not sure I understand your motivation in trumpeting this perceived characteristic of US politicians on the make. It reads at worst like an attempt to denigrate the contribution of 19th century Irish emigrants, at best like a bit of a whinge.

In either case, I don't think your observations do anything to redress the lack of regard for the "Scotch-Irish" tradition that you bemoan. Surely it speaks little for the general perception of that heritage that these people shun it, deny it and perceive any association with it and whatever it may betoken as an electoral liability.

They call them W.A.S.P.'s its generally not a compliment.

WASP doesn't necessarily refer to Scotch-Irish. It covers a much wider spectrum.

Indeed. And no Ulster-Scot worth the name would thank you for including him in such a category when used in its original meaning and context. 

I mean to say: White certainly, Protestant ditto, but "Anglo Saxon"? 

Most people who consider themselves Ulster-Scots wouldn't be intelligent enough to be branded a WASP.

An Ulster-Scot walks into a petshop (in August, btw) and says to the owner:
"Ah'd like fur tae buy a wasp, if ye plaise".
The owner replies: "I'm sorry, Sir, but we don't sell wasps."
To which Oor Wullie replies: "Well ye've got wan in the windae..."

Anyway, with your moniker, how do we know you don't have a bit of wasp in you yourself?
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/224197/gall-wasp

Are you talking to me or Gallsman? I have Gaelic (Connacht & Ulster), Norse-Gaelic (Outer Hebridies, via Ulster & Norway), Norman (via Wales, maybe England and Normandy) as far as I can tell.

Just a thought that makes me a different type of Ulster-Scot   

[Evil Genius]

In the Northern States they would often fall into the WASP category and in the Southern States into the Hilly Billy (or Bills of the Hills) in Appalachia & they the heart and Soul of the progressive  Bible Belt.

Now the Green tradition Irish we give you Boston, Chicago and New York 

Correction, you claim Boston, Chicago and New York - all three were founded long before yiz got there...

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/c/cuckoo/

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

In the Northern States they would often fall into the WASP category and in the Southern States into the Hilly Billy (or Bills of the Hills) in Appalachia & they the heart and Soul of the progressive  Bible Belt.

Now the Green tradition Irish we give you Boston, Chicago and New York 

Correction, you claim Boston, Chicago and New York - all three were founded long before yiz got there...

We found backwaters we left an Empire 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

In the Northern States they would often fall into the WASP category and in the Southern States into the Hilly Billy (or Bills of the Hills) in Appalachia & they the heart and Soul of the progressive  Bible Belt.

Now the Green tradition Irish we give you Boston, Chicago and New York 

Correction, you claim Boston, Chicago and New York - all three were founded long before yiz got there...

We defo gave you Iona, St.Bernard & Munich.

[muppet]

Where did i say any? i said i would like to know how it can be justified then i went further to ask you and your sidekick (who has gone very quiet) to explain to me the economic benefits of such a visit, you are therefore misquoting me and are luying yourself.

you notice i have gone quiet on misquoting you? i replied and you ignored the reply, go back and trawl through my posts like your so good at

i replied to jim's point, i don't see how 5 hours here will justify the bill, something you fail to grasp, you say you posted links to two museums, facts are museums (if the archelogical society are doing their work) will come to pass whether the president vistis or not.

Did the Eqyptian section of the museum in London need to invite the pharaoh's over in order to get a museum built? no so again this attempt at an argument you put up a day and a half later doesn't cut it

furthermore what someone else posts is up to them, ''i am not my brother's keeper'' - to even ask me why someone would say something just shows a total lack of intelligence on your part, absolutley astounded that you ask me to shed light on why someone else posted something, you have totally lost the run of yourself

This is great fun!

I ask you a simply question regarding another poster's comment about you and me, even giving you an out as I know how sensitive you are, and you say it shows a 'total lack of intelligence' on my part. You are 'absolutely astounded' with this? Really? Yet you derisively reference my 'sidekick' for doing something, who afaik I've never met. Where does this leave your intellect by your own logic.

As for your Pharaoh point, this really is funny and you are obviously not serious. But it is very entertaining. You would need to consider the Knights' (or whatever they had then) overtime bill if the Pharaoh visited. You would no doubt be against this.

facts are museums (if the archelogical society are doing their work) will come to pass whether the president vistis or not.

Many people seem to confuse 'facts' with opinion. Fact is, neither museum was there before the President in question visited. Fact is, those museums represent an economic benefit to Ireland from our connection to those US presidents. It is my opinion that the same may happen again.
[/quote]

that is a terrible reply even by your pathetic standard, you are still flogging that one? how would i know what he meant, i never commented on what he said, the key difference between you and abbeyside is that you chose to interpret what he said and comment on it, i never commented on the other person you chose to reference, your failure to see the key fundamental difference, leaves my intellect on this matter totally sound  - so yes i am totally astounded

giving me an out? don't you worry about me looking out, why would i want when you are in tatters, you feel free to dive under the rock anytime you want my dear muppet

by the way what's a 'simply question' - i don't do muppet jargon, can you translate?

prove it, give me a breakdown of their running costs, turnover generated, how long the payback was on the original cap ex to build the museum and how the wages of these employees are paid i.e. are they fully self sustaining or are they part funded by the state, i.e. can they stand on their own 2 feet - in fact don't bother i know you can't, you just fire out soundbites about tourism and can't back it up when asked to drill down beneath the surface

In the days before we were a bubble we had two main ways of generating money. Foreign investment (mainly from the US of A) and tourism (of which the most lucrative sector came from yes you guessed it, the US of A).

A visit from the President of the US of A is a big deal. Many Americans have cut back on foreign trips due to the recession and also due to perceived terrorism risks. This also will help on the latter problem. It will be marketed by Tourism Ireland big time, just like the previous serving Presidents were. Any Irish person that lived before the bubble knows this. Tourism Ireland knows this as suggested below. You alone on this island think differently.

You think we should call it off due to the Garda overtime budget. The budget figure you relied on came from the GRA 'twonk' as Hardy called him. Hardy demonstrated the inaccuracy of his figures. Even the 'twonk' wasn't arguing to call off the visit, he merely wanted clarification on funding.

However now you are asking for figures from me that don't exist anywhere. You will then no doubt claim victory as I didn't provide them. You claim I am in tatters and that you are marching gloriously onto cyber victory.

That is the most piece of brilliance I have seen yet on this board. It is a pity your coup de gras wasn't formatted correctly.

The visit is happening. Get over it.

Here is some light reading for you:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Obama-Ireland-visit-prompts-international-tourist-campaign-118422924.html
http://www.newstalk.ie/2011/news/4tourism-chief-says-obama-queen-visits-will-boost-industry47/
http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/international-tourism-campaigns-to-take-place-ahead-of-state-visits-55222.html
http://www.worldtourismdirectory.com/news/9429/tourism-ireland-expects-boost-from-obama,-queen-visits.html
http://irishfreepress.com/?p=12548
http://www.pata.org/news/obama-and-queen-elizabeth-to-boost-ireland-tourism
http://www.goireland.com/blog/article/boost-for-irish-tourism-from-us-and-uk-state-visit.html
http://www.hospitalityenews.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1394-obama-to-spark-tourism-drive.html

[Banana Man]

you see there you go being totally inaccurate and telling absolute lies!!

Where did i ever call for Obama not to visit?? - this is the crux of your latest argument and it's about to get blew apart as well

you were the one that jumped on Obama when the 'low lying fruit' would have been me opposed to Lizzie, you are that restrained in your thought process and wanted to get one over on a 'Sinn Feiner' as you perceive me to me, based on someone else's post, (that ludicrously you have asked me to explain why they would have posted what they did) that you missed the open net!!!

Tell me where i opposed Obama visiting? you and abbeysider creamed yourselves to get replying you didn't even read my original post properly, you were to busy looking down your noses

I never once opposed either of them in my statement - I asked how the budget could be justified, which i stand by based on my original understanding of the context of the source

you are that narrow sighted you didn't see the point and still don't - the natural course of my post would have been who would have paid for these security costs, would the state fund it all, part fund, would either the UK or US contribute etc, but you are that immature you tried to slate my education - and based on the direction this 'debate' has went the only ones education that is in doubt is the one belonging to the stuffed red animal - Muppet indeed

[lynchbhoy]

great post by Aoise - I fully agree with all of that, usual round the houses daft reply from evil myles though doesnt detract from its accuracy or personal opinion!

"Round the houses"?
I made a number of specific responses to the points she was trying to make, all backed up with links/sources/evidence. Your attempt to back her up might carry a shred of credibility if you had actually tried to respond in the same vein, rather than repeating your usual tack of "It's good/bad/whatever because I say it is".
Then again, seeing as you're the last poster on here who's still labouring under the delusion that I am also Myles naGopaleen, I'd be pretty surprised if you suddenly started to display judgement, reasoning or deduction etc in your posts.

There wont be any reunification while we have economic problems.

Seeing as the GFA has determined that it cannot happen until a majority of voters in NI agrees to it, the last realistic prospect of Irish unity disappeared completely along with the 20th Century.
The Republic's present economic crisis merely adds one more nail to the coffin. I don't know what age you are, but I'd be completely confident that it ain't gonna happen in your lifetime or mine.
In fact, rather than dreaming as you and Aoise do, that the Queen's visit is some sort of precursor to Irish unity etc, one might just as easily characterise it as final realisation and acceptance by the Republic that the Union of GB and NI, with Her Majesty as Head of State, is here to stay.
If so (and I personally wouldn't like to overstate its significance), then it is a welcome move in normalising relations between the two neighbouring countries (imo).

I dont actually care whether the queen comes or not

Really?
Despite the visit being some sort of first step towards softening us all up to the prospect of Irish unity etc?

and I dont think that she can be held accountable for the actions of british soldiers because she is head of the armed forces any more than we can hold her accountable for child abuse at the hands of church of england ministers just because she is head of the COE.

Actually the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head ("Primate") of the CoE. The Queen is "Defender of the Faith", a now largely honorary title first conferred upon her predecessor, Henry VIII, by Pope Leo X.

But, I am wary/worried about the cost for security for both her and obama. I dont think that there will be any significant increase in tourism returns to cover the cost of this security.
Lets face it, if you were not Irish, would you come here given the crap weather, expemsive food and drink and also now hearing that there are bombs going off all over the country (this is what foreigners used to think). I wouldnt.

I might have been inclined to agree with you (for once!), until I saw the extent of the attention* and publicity etc which the forthcoming Royal Wedding is bringing to the UK, from all over the world.
* - Don't quite understand it, myself, but if it gains us an extra Bank Holiday etc, then I'm all for it!

Come off it – 'evidence' ....your persistently flawed sources and conjecture plus skewed opinion don't hold.

You wont ever want to 'get it'  - its about the economy – if the economic situation was right, jobs were had for the peoples of the 6 counties outwith the civil service and jobs were abundant again for southern citizens, then only apathy would halt a reunification.

No I don't actually care whether the queen comes or not – a re-unification will happen irrespective of this.

I would be happy if the visits of obama and the queen were going to brng in more money via tourism than is being spent on their security – I actually doubt this.
Not for those massive security costs.

Glad to see you are admitting that there 'WILL' be a reunification, unionists like yourself have had to change the old mantra from 'never'  to  'not in my lifetime'
- presumably you must be near pension age then !!

[lynchbhoy]

would also doubt obama's visit would draw many more yanks to visit.
Relations of mine on the east coast of yankeeland moan about not being able to visit Ireland as much as they want to because of the cost and the exchange rate being so bad it kills any ideas of a trip home. While not wealthy, these people would be quite comfortable financially.


I see that former American presidents have somehow come up - I'd say the reason why they and other 'Irish-Americans' take the mantle of 'Irish' is because they dont want any other identity.

[muppet]

you see there you go being totally inaccurate and telling absolute lies!!

Where did i ever call for Obama not to visit?? - this is the crux of your latest argument and it's about to get blew apart as well

you were the one that jumped on Obama when the 'low lying fruit' would have been me opposed to Lizzie, you are that restrained in your thought process and wanted to get one over on a 'Sinn Feiner' as you perceive me to me, based on someone else's post, (that ludicrously you have asked me to explain why they would have posted what they did) that you missed the open net!!!

Tell me where i opposed Obama visiting? you and abbeysider creamed yourselves to get replying you didn't even read my original post properly, you were to busy looking down your noses

I never once opposed either of them in my statement - I asked how the budget could be justified, which i stand by based on my original understanding of the context of the source

you are that narrow sighted you didn't see the point and still don't - the natural course of my post would have been who would have paid for these security costs, would the state fund it all, part fund, would either the UK or US contribute etc, but you are that immature you tried to slate my education - and based on the direction this 'debate' has went the only ones education that is in doubt is the one belonging to the stuffed red animal - Muppet indeed

heard on the 2FM this morning that the entire Garda budget for the year will be used up next month with the state visit of Lizzy and Obama - How the f**k in times of severe austerity can this be justified???

Here is your initial masterpiece.

How the f*ck....can this be justified? By this you meant I totally support their visits? Can you see that one might interpret this as opposition to the plans?

This tells us in 2010 €1,479m is for An Garda Síochána.

The costs of security has been estimated to be €25m. €25m is less than 2% of the 'entire Garda budget'. You exaggerated the cost by a factor of 50 and on this basis the claimed the visits couldn't be justified.

Then you went on to demand that people give a breakdown of the tourism benefits Obama's visit would bring. At this point it was obvious where you were going. Only two posters attempted to answer. It is not possible to give such figures as they don't exist. When any spotlight was put on this you hid behind a barrage of insults, while protesting about being insulted, then tried to declare victory (i.e. the visits are not justified) log off into the sunset a hero in your own box room.

Another poster then attacked me claiming my arguing with you was anti-Sinn Féin. When I asked you what he might have meant, you threw all the toys out of the pram attacking everything including my intellect. Bravo. Another original strategy. I have since pointed out that Sinn Féin support the visit of Obama, the one you asked for tourism figures to justify.

Imho the justification of Obama's visit is a no-brainer. You are the only one here demanding it's justification. I have heard no politician here oppose or even question it.