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[Who else of that calibre has any county with real aspirations been similarly missing this year?]

Now as for the injured player thing....its purely a "what if" scenario. What if O'Neill was fit? What if we'd got the penalty? What if what if....
You can only judge a team by what is available on the panel and by results. Saying Tyrone would be a different team with everyone fit....sure derry could say the same. So could Monaghan. So it is nonsense making this argument as the fact is had all players been fit on all sides there is still no guarantee the outcome would be any different as any team can beat any other on any given day. You might as well be 20 points away from an AI semi as 2 cause the end result is the same.

Given that S O'N is a former and recent player of the year, and Brian Mc Guigan is acknowledged as perhaps the best play maker in the country (and both recent Celtic Cross winners to boot) it's a little more than an idle 'what-if' surely? Who else of that calibre has any county with real aspirations been similarly missing this year?

Derry were missing Kevin  Mcguckian for the whole championship up until the dublin game where he was not match fit.
We were missing Joe Diver through injury.
Kevin McCloy carrying a finger injury.
These 3 players are as important for Derry as McGuigan and O'Neill are for Tyrone.
Now as for McGuigan being the best play maker in the country...he was a couple of years ago. But lets face it, due to injury he cant be counted as that any more and may never reach those heights again due to the nature of his injury. Very disappointing as he was fantastic to watch.
The same can be said of stephen o'neill, though I'd say he could well make a return to form in the future as his injuries are more conventional and could well be healed.
As for "Who else of that calibre has any county with real aspirations been similarly missing this year? ". All teams have very real aspirations every year, be it win a match, win a provincial title or win the AI. To suggest that any of the teams hoping to win a match do not have players who are as important to them as the likes of tyrone missing O'Neill for example, is an extremely arrogant remark.

The injury excuse is pure crap....a team is only as strong as the panel. Its utter nonsense to say if we had all our players fit we'd be the best.
As for Armagh and Tyrone having mental strength...I think you will see over the next season or two just how fickle mental strength is. When a team wins a lot of games they are touted as having good mental strength. With every defeat, however, this diminsishes. The goal for Armagh and Tyrone over the past two year has been to win sam. By not doing this and by puttin in some very poor performances that mental strength will be eroding away. Conversely look at Monaghan and Derry this year. But could have won against hte Dubs and Kerry. That's going to improve both these teams.
Remember, it wasnt that long ago when Armagh or Tyrone rarely won a match and they were touted as a "one man team" or one that "didnt have the mental strength to compete". It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this could return!

Its not utter nonsense to argue that if a team had its best players fit it would be be up with the best, Tyrone won Ulster and were a couple of points away from the AI semi without their main playmaker, scoretaker, and with their captain clearly injured. With those lads fit Tyrone would be a different team, thats a fact. They werent though and thats football, Tyrone werent the best team this summer and have to accept that. Natural though that Tyrone fans will lament the loss of the men who would have a made big difference, certainly not "pure crap".

Lopsided argument on your behalf also to claim Tyrone and Armagh will have lost belief due to defeats in big games whereas Derry and Monaghan have become the big two in Ulster by losing All Ireland quarter finals Both teams did really well this summer and made strides forward but anybody who thinks Tyrone and Armagh are finished is deluding themselves. Roll on 2008, Ulster should be a really interesting and competive championship.

I think you need to read my post again. Where did I say that tyrone and armagh are finished? Or where did i say that derry and monaghan are the big two?
What I did say is that both armagh and tyrone failed to do what they set out to do and that this will erode their mental strength and the longer that goes on the worse that will get. This could have the long term effect of reverting to ways of old.
I also said that derry and monaghan would be coming out of this year happy that they made steps forward and will go into next year full of confidence and beleif that they can take anyone.

Now as for the injured player thing....its purely a "what if" scenario. What if O'Neill was fit? What if we'd got the penalty? What if what if....
You can only judge a team by what is available on the panel and by results. Saying Tyrone would be a different team with everyone fit....sure derry could say the same. So could Monaghan. So it is nonsense making this argument as the fact is had all players been fit on all sides there is still no guarantee the outcome would be any different as any team can beat any other on any given day. You might as well be 20 points away from an AI semi as 2 cause the end result is the same.

Would it not be the case that Derry were a bit rough with the tackles and got called on it? as for moving the ball forward, if a player is gonna complain thats what the result is.

I think a player is entitled to complain if the original free awarded was unjust.

so do i but the rules don't see it like that. if you watch dublin as the championship progress they used to bitch and moan but now they barely say a word. as it is a contact sport i would be in favour of allowing the captain be the only person to say anything to the ref rather than nobody.

What is your honest opinion on the ref for the match? Did you think he was biased towards the dubs?

Would it not be the case that Derry were a bit rough with the tackles and got called on it? as for moving the ball forward, if a player is gonna complain thats what the result is.

I think a player is entitled to complain if the original free awarded was unjust.

Can anyone clear up as to why Murphy was subbed.
Everyone assumed he was injured, but i've heard from a few people since that he was simply taken off after 35 min cause that was what the plan was.

I find it hard to believe that thats the case.
Anyone heard anything similar?

havent heard for definate but was under the impression it was injury.
He's supposed to have had a couple of injections before the match. Perhaps they though a half was all that was safe for him to play.

If Tyrone or Armagh went into either of this weekend's big football games with a fully fit squad, as Derry and Monaghan had, they would have beaten Dublin and Kerry.
The big two, when fully fit, will still be the teams to beat, and have the mental strength that none of the rest have in Ulster.
The rest will occasionally do well, flatter to decieve and waste their chances on the big stage, that's what us small fish do 

a fully fit squad?? catch yourself on ffs!! ok we mightn't have had as many injuries as tyrone or armagh but we had 3 very crucial injuries. paul cartin out for 8 months, kevin mc guckin clearly not match fit, and paul murphy not fit either (in my opinion the reason we lost was murphy's half time departure, his vision and point taking in the second half would have swung that game)

Your forgetting mcloy playing the last 2 games with a broken finger, Barry McGoldrick broken finger, Michael McGoldrick hamstring (only you couldnt tell), Joe Diver hip for first half of season always playing catchup.
The injury excuse is pure crap....a team is only as strong as the panel. Its utter nonsense to say if we had all our players fit we'd be the best.
As for Armagh and Tyrone having mental strength...I think you will see over the next season or two just how fickle mental strength is. When a team wins a lot of games they are touted as having good mental strength. With every defeat, however, this diminsishes. The goal for Armagh and Tyrone over the past two year has been to win sam. By not doing this and by puttin in some very poor performances that mental strength will be eroding away. Conversely look at Monaghan and Derry this year. But could have won against hte Dubs and Kerry. That's going to improve both these teams.
Remember, it wasnt that long ago when Armagh or Tyrone rarely won a match and they were touted as a "one man team" or one that "didnt have the mental strength to compete". It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this could return!

[any neutrals out there, i would like to hear an unbiased opinion on the ref??i thought he was shocking. taking a hell of a lot of dublin frees forward and never once did he take a derry free forward despite the descent from dublin players. though whelan was extremely lucky yet again (apparently he's never allowed to be reprimanded by a ref) although in sayin that kevin mc guckin was also walking a tightrope and lucky to stay on. but in a 3 point game i thought he was worth at least 4-5 points to the dubs. he only really gave us any decisions when there was 6 points in it and he thought the game was over but once it was back to 3 points he dam sure wasnt gonna let it get any closer. also he blew devlin up for over carrying in the first half after one bounce, a ludicrous decisionunfortunately i am not a neutral. i thought the ref was dreadful in the 1st half. the dubs who surrounded me actually laughed at some of his decisions against doire. why cant things be done fair!? doire scored 13 of the best points ive seen in a while and 2 from free's. why was a kerry man reffing anyway. sour grapes!?- perhaps. but at the end of the day i paid good honest money to watch a good honest match which was certainly ruined by some reffing decisions]

any neutrals out there, i would like to hear an unbiased opinion on the ref??

i thought he was shocking. taking a hell of a lot of dublin frees forward and never once did he take a derry free forward despite the descent from dublin players. though whelan was extremely lucky yet again (apparently he's never allowed to be reprimanded by a ref) although in sayin that kevin mc guckin was also walking a tightrope and lucky to stay on. but in a 3 point game i thought he was worth at least 4-5 points to the dubs. he only really gave us any decisions when there was 6 points in it and he thought the game was over but once it was back to 3 points he dam sure wasnt gonna let it get any closer. also he blew devlin up for over carrying in the first half after one bounce, a ludicrous decision

unfortunately i am not a neutral.  i thought the ref was dreadful in the 1st half.  the dubs who surrounded me actually laughed at some of his decisions against doire.  why cant things be done fair!?  doire scored 13 of the best points ive seen in a while and 2 from free's. why was a kerry man reffing anyway.  sour grapes!?- perhaps.  but at the end of the day i paid good honest money to watch a good honest match which was certainly ruined by some reffing decisions

Ok I'm not a neutral but feel I have to comment on the ref, particularly after watching the game again and seeing the highlights. On the Saturday game remark was passed on some very dubious decisions made in dublins favour. And I think this is a fair comment. Time and again he seemed to let Dublin away and blow up Derry or bringing the ball forward. The Devlin instance was picked up on the Sunday game showed clearly it was not a double bounce. It also showed Devlin should have had a penalty for one of the Bradley goal chances. And it showed a point that was indicated wide for derry was actually a point. If you only took the penalty and the faulty point decision then thats a win for derry! I know I know thats a bit of a blinkered and biased statement, but I think the ref had a very strong bearing on the outcome of the game. I think when you see that Derry only had 2 scores from frees where Dublin had 6/7 should highlight this. No way was Derry fouling any more than Dublin were and I only remember us missing 1 free (the P Bradley howler). 2:6 is three time more scored frees than which to me indicates a bias on behalf of the ref.

So, I think Dublin might be reading a bit more into the victory than they should. The Kerry match will be a sterner test for them and Kerry have the players in all positions to trouble Dublin, where Derry were probably lacking in 3-4 positions.

I hope Dublin beat Kerry as they're an arrogant crowd, but I just cant see past Kerry for this game unfortunately.

Tbrick- interested in your analysis.
Who was marking Keaney- 3pts.
who was marking Bernard Brogan who scred 3 pts from play.
who was marking Alan Brogan-3pts from play
some of those playerd weren't as good as you thought.

Keany had 2 frees I think.
Alan Brogan would score 3 points off anyone given the supply he got from the half backs and B Brogan as he's the dubs top forward.
B Brogan would have been the pick of the dublin players in my opinion and fully deserved his 3 points.

I'm extremelely disappointed by the result but nonetheless I am very happy with the overall performance of the team.
One thing you can say as that they gave it their all and they should have no regrets coming off the pitch as players. OK some of them didnt perform to the standards we were expecting but others by far exceeded them. Doc ruled midfield. Whelan isnt a shadow on him based on yesterdays performance and I've watched again on tv before making this comment.
Kevin McCloy - what can you say...best full back in the country without a doubt. Will he get an allstar...no chance. He's from a northern team that didnt win the provincial title and didnt get past the quarters. 12 out of the 15 allstars will be from the semi finalists.
Eoin Bradley has got a lot of stick on here and even blamed for the loss...now at the time I thought he was rubbish. But watching it again, he didnt pass the ball as the dublin defence were marking so tightly there was no-where to pass too so he had to go it alone. Had he played a match before this one could have been a different story but he jsut wasnt sharp enough for this game. I wouldnt blame him for that but instead think he was the wrong sub to bring on for the injured murphy...McGoldrick would have been the obvious choice in a like for like swap (though I rate Murphy much higher).
In my opinion it wasnt the introduction of Eoin that lost us the game, but the loss of Paul Murphy. Watching the first half, the amount of breaking ball he won and the amount of accurate timely passes he played into the ff line are what kept us going. We have no-one to replace this and him going off was always going to mean we were less potent going forward and were going to win a lot less breaks.
My main gripe is with Paddy Crozier starting Kevin McGuckian and then being too stubborn to take him off. McGuckian was roasted and cost us maybe 4 points, and was very lucky not to cost us a goal. The full back line should have been left as was...SML, McLoy and McGoldrick. If he didnt want Hinphy in then should have started Keenan. G. O'Kane played his best game to date from wing half back...perhaps kevin mcguckian could have played CHB? These are options I would have considered rather than disrupt a defence that had settled and was playing really well.
As for Dublin, the stuck at it and I thought in the second half in particular defended really well. On another day, their midfield might do much better but I'm not convinced by them. Two wing half backs were very good as was the other brogan at wing half forward. Vaughan carried them a bit with the frees and didnt do much else, but anyone who can score frees as reliably and effortlessly as him would walk onto any team. I actually hope Dublin go on to win, but I think Kerry will be a step too far for them.

Overall though I'm dissappointed but optimistic about next year. Hopefully Paddy Crozier has learnt a few lessons and hopefully we ccan have a preparation next year without suspensions and controversy to distract from the business of football. If so, I could see us winning Ulster at least.

A lot of people on here have been commenting on the dub support. They do bring a fantastic atmostphere and any sitting around us were good craic. But, we were sitting on the lower deck of the cusack around the half way line just under the premier level. Throughout the game we were spat on and had object such as sweets and empty drinks bottles thrown down at us from the premier level by dub supporters. The stewards were informed by many people and they apparantly sent the guards up as the stewards had no access (which I found very hard to believe...why would stewards not have access to the entire ground?). However, this behaviour continued throughout the game. Now I know this is a small percentage of supporters but these are the people that undoubtedly give the dubs a bad name. They are a disgrace and should have been ejected from the grounds but no-one seemed to want to know. This is the first time I have ever witnessed anything like this from supporters of any team (even the tryonnies  ).

Anyway thats one negative about an otherwise fantastic home support.
Derry support was excellent but we were just outnumbered and due to the positioning around the grounds I'm sure the players found it hard to hear us at all but not much you can do about that.

To finish, there's always next year. And at least the way we went out this year was a big improvement on last year, so lets hope we can take another couple of steps forward and hope we dont lose any of our big players in the meantime.

All this talk about which province is better or which team from which province is best is pure nonsense.
Who knows and who cares more to the point.
Put it to bed for once and for all....provincial champs best in province. Trying to compare provinces is pointless. The only thing that kind of gauges this is the railway cup when the best players from each province play each other. But who really cares which province is better? Surely all that matters is where your own county stands in the All-Ireland race? Of course it's important to win the provicinial but the overall goal for any team that does is to win the All-Ireland. Ask Armagh if they would trade all their Ulster titles for another SAM and I bet they would. Same for Dublin, if given the choice of trading their 3 Leinsters in a row for an all-ireland title I bet they would. So boasting about winning provincials is just trying to take attention away from the fact that no all-ireland has followed.

At the end of the day it comes down to who wins a particular match and every team wants to win the all-ireland whether they are provincial champs or not.
Derry v Dublin has the potential to be a classic but only if Derry have their heads straight for the game.
Derry at their best playing Dublin at their best I think there wouldnt be any more than the kick of a ball between the two.

I think Derry can do it, I hope Derry can do it, but I've been to enough football to know to expect only one thing...you never know what will happen on the day. Dublin could stuff us. We could stuff Dublin. It could be a draw. Would any of these result surprise anyone?

So for Saturday I go to the game in hope...and who knows what else will happen.

bbc sports site says Murphy, and the 2 mcgoldircks have recoverd and are taking part in full training.
No injuries what so ever in the derry camp. How true that is I dont know.

Diver is back out training at full tilt again.

Good stuff....I really like Diver and rate him highly. I doubt he'll get a start though with MF doing so well against Laois.
But if we're strugling there defo love to see him come on. The thing I like most about him (and this is in no way meant to belittle the skillfull player he is) is the obvious desire and enthusiasm he has on the pitch. I think too many players these days try to play it cool where Diver lets his emotions show and will jump for joy when he scores a point.

Devlin's work rate, technical ability, awareness,ability to win frees,fitness and pace makes him a brilliant asset to the Derry forward line.

I think Devlin will be brushed away by strength of Dubs, though hope I'm wrong.  If Murphy's not on it will be a disaster for Derry

In yesterdays Irish News Murphy said is knee was injured. Swelling as gone down but he cant bend it much though mobility has improved.
He's hopeful he'll be fit but says there may be cartilidge damage. I'd be doubtful he'll play to be honest.

Not sure bout Paul Murphy's injury Bogball, heard a couple of different reports, one that he had a dead leg, the other it was his knee and he is due to go for a scan. The knee may be more accurate as he had it wrapped up with ice at the end of the game and didnt do the warm-down obviously. Would be a huge loss. Took the goal really well and caused Joe Higgins endless problems.

So has everyone got their tickets sorted yet? 

Maybe going against the grain here, but some of that crap bout the Dub's behaviour on the hill and the snow epidemic is very stereotypical. We are here to talk abut the game!

Murphy's injury was definately the knee, and I know they were really worried about it and were sending him for a scan, but I havent heard anything since that.
I ddint know McCloy was injured....whats wrong with him? We would struggle to cope without him....who would we put in? What about Patsy? Worked for the Tyronnies throwin in the late cormac mcanallen from midfield...

My Derry Team v Dubs (Wha')

Gillis (Lucky to still be there IMO)
Lockhart
McCloy
McGuckin
McEldowney
O'Kane
McGoldrick (If fit, I would have McBride in if not but I think Hinphey would get the nod from the Mgt)
Doc
Conway
Lynch
Murphy (If Fit, if not I'd have Bradley but I think Diver would be put there)
Gilligan
Muldoon (Roving)
BradleyC
Devlin

Can't see Eoin Bradley starting but as one of my mates said it might be an idea to use him as an impact sub and I think he would do well coming in against a Dubs team that usually burns itself out too quickly.

y play lockhart in the corner and mcgoldrick in the halfback line ?? why take them out of position at this stage of the championship. they have been playing great up till now. lockhart picks up alot of loose ball in front of mcCloy

Lochart has been playing at corner back since the monaghan game, even tho named at centre half.
The main reason to move mcgoldrick to half back is the fact that if mcguckian is fit he has to start in the corner. McGoldrick has been excellent so far and moving him to wing half back might improve our weakest line on the pitch. He can defend and go forward so might be a good move. I have to admit this is what I would try if McGuckian is fully fit....but only if he is fully fit. If not, he would be better coming on with 15 mins to go.
I think Diver would make a good impact sub for midfield (or as a third midfielder). I think Skinner would be an excellent impact sub, but if the injury to Murphy is serious I could see him starting as a direct replacement.