We'll know more soon, but dreadful machete attack in Woolwich SE London.
Seen some video's from ITN. Shocking - the guys who did it are clean nuts. Calmly talking to the camera, apologizing that women in the vicinity had to witness it....
Horrific. Born and raised in Britain makes it near impossible for authorities to defend against.
What is it with people now a days, standing taking a film and pics off people after killing someone and and tweeting it, have people no f**king morals any more and giving some sick in the head sc**bag. Terrible to see, there some scum in the world, i import him back to Nigeria, dropping him off from about 10,000ft up
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 22, 2013, 10:38:00 PM
What is it with people now a days, standing taking a film and pics off people after killing someone and and tweeting it, have people no f**king morals any more and giving some sick in the head sc**bag. Terrible to see, there some scum in the world, i import him back to Nigeria, dropping him off from about 10,000ft up
So he's from Nigeria then??
apparently so, one of them anyway
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 22, 2013, 10:38:00 PM
What is it with people now a days, standing taking a film and pics off people after killing someone and and tweeting it, have people no f**king morals any more and giving some sick in the head sc**bag. Terrible to see, there some scum in the world, i import him back to Nigeria, dropping him off from about 10,000ft up
You are right, what do these animals contribute to society ? f**k all.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 22, 2013, 10:38:00 PM
What is it with people now a days, standing taking a film and pics off people after killing someone and and tweeting it, have people no f**king morals any more and giving some sick in the head sc**bag. Terrible to see, there some scum in the world, i import him back to Nigeria, dropping him off from about 10,000ft up
The fellas who committed the crime told some of those in the vicinity to get their phones out. Considering what they had just witnessed and the fact the perpetrators were carrying all sorts of weapons I doubt too many were prepared to p*ss them off any further.
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 10:16:09 PM
Seen some video's from ITN. Shocking - the guys who did it are clean nuts. Calmly talking to the camera, apologizing that women in the vicinity had to witness it....
So not at all nuts then
Can't find the words to describe that, horrific doesn't come close.
Quote from: haranguerer on May 22, 2013, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 10:16:09 PM
Seen some video's from ITN. Shocking - the guys who did it are clean nuts. Calmly talking to the camera, apologizing that women in the vicinity had to witness it....
So not at all nuts then
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Those EDL scumbags are just as bad as those 2 nutters but haven't the intelligence to realise it.
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 22, 2013, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 10:16:09 PM
Seen some video's from ITN. Shocking - the guys who did it are clean nuts. Calmly talking to the camera, apologizing that women in the vicinity had to witness it....
So not at all nuts then
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Not nuts.
Deliberate and motivated it looks like.
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on May 22, 2013, 11:31:21 PM
Those EDL scumbags are just as bad as those 2 nutters but haven't the intelligence to realise it.
Remind me the last time the EDL cut someones head off in the street.
Quote from: dillinger on May 23, 2013, 12:00:41 AM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on May 22, 2013, 11:31:21 PM
Those EDL scumbags are just as bad as those 2 nutters but haven't the intelligence to realise it.
Remind me the last time the EDL cut someones head off in the street.
An EDL lad was on television tonight, balaclava and all, giving off about the burqa. The irony.
What the guy with meat cleaver on film said
Quote"We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don't care about you. Do you think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think your politicians are going to die?No, it's going to be the average guy like you, and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so we, so you can all live in peace."
The "wisdom" of Göring:
QuoteGöring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
In an interview with Gilbert in Göring's jail cell during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials (18 April 1946)
If you accept Göring's analysis this attacker actually does the bidding of the leaders he seeks to remove.
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 22, 2013, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 10:16:09 PM
Seen some video's from ITN. Shocking - the guys who did it are clean nuts. Calmly talking to the camera, apologizing that women in the vicinity had to witness it....
So not at all nuts then
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Just because some people place a lower value on life than you do, and are more willing to take it, does not make them nuts. Not does it make them nuts that they chose to do it by hacking at someone. They wanted to make a statement, and shock is the most effective tool of doing so. They knew what they were doing, and I for one would feel that out of the many murders committed annually, this is one where a plea for insanity would have no grounds whatsoever.
Oh, and it wasn't a random stranger-they knew what they were doing.
+1
Sickening. reports suggest it took 20 minutes for police to arrive :-\
20 minutes for police to arrive in a capital city is about 17 minutes too long!
Quote from: balladmaker on May 23, 2013, 10:20:55 AM
20 minutes for police to arrive in a capital city is about 17 minutes too long!
This was most probably the Armed Response Unit which I would imagine in a normalised society like London wouldn't be around every corner on a day to day basis.
Lets not get away from the fact, that even if the response time was 30 seconds the damage was done for the Solider.
The two murderers are obviously getting mixed up in their ideologies, firstly one of them says to bring 'our' troops home while the other is referring to British solider's killing Muslims in 'our' lands. Two sick twisted individuals with warped minds who have been moulded and shaped by some one into these actions.
A little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
Quote from: southdown on May 23, 2013, 09:40:20 AM
Sickening. reports suggest it took 20 minutes for police to arrive :-\
Nearly certain it was 20 minutes before the armed police arrived. Regular 'bobbies' were there earlier but didnt approach due to the armed perpetrators.
On a side note, Boris Johnston said this morning that British foreign policy had nothing to do with this attack. He obviously wasn't paying too much attention.
Quote from: NAG1 on May 23, 2013, 10:26:35 AM
The two murderers are obviously getting mixed up in their ideologies, firstly one of them says to bring 'our' troops home while the other is referring to British solider's killing Muslims in 'our' lands. Two sick twisted individuals with warped minds who have been moulded and shaped by some one into these actions.
A little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
This warped minds comment struck a chord with me. Can we really say that the media fed masses here in the west are not getting their minds "warped" so to speak. Do we really know what we are talking about when it comes to what is happening out there? I dont think we are. No doubt these men have been warped with a different perspective on the wests involvement in these conflicts. The question is ..who is closer to the truth? Shock and instilling panic are well know tactics of the guerrilla. These guys are as sane as you and me..make no doubt about it
Quote from: omagh_gael on May 23, 2013, 10:26:44 AM
On a side note, Boris Johnston said this morning that British foreign policy had nothing to do with this attack. He obviously wasn't paying too much attention.
It's much easier to dismiss these killers as insane rather than assume they were quite lucid when they performed this evil act.
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 11:00:23 AM
Quote from: NAG1 on May 23, 2013, 10:26:35 AM
The two murderers are obviously getting mixed up in their ideologies, firstly one of them says to bring 'our' troops home while the other is referring to British solider's killing Muslims in 'our' lands. Two sick twisted individuals with warped minds who have been moulded and shaped by some one into these actions.
A little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
This warped minds comment struck a chord with me. Can we really say that the media fed masses here in the west are not getting their minds "warped" so to speak. Do we really know what we are talking about when it comes to what is happening out there? I dont think we are. No doubt these men have been warped with a different perspective on the wests involvement in these conflicts. The question is ..who is closer to the truth? Shock and instilling panic are well know tactics of the guerrilla. These guys are as sane as you and me..make no doubt about it
I am not denying the fact that they are completely sane and lucid in the act of what they did, my point is that on the very basic level of taking a meat clever to a fellow human being, blow after blow to attempt to behead them, completely soaked in blood and yet able to still attempt to justify it. To me on the very basic human level that is completely warped and anyone's brain who functions in a way that allows them to justify that type of action is 'warped'.
Those men were freely walking about yielding weapons. The footage showed and old lady casually walking by. They could easily have attacked more people in that period when they were freely walking around. Madness.
Quote from: NAG1 on May 23, 2013, 11:08:25 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 11:00:23 AM
Quote from: NAG1 on May 23, 2013, 10:26:35 AM
The two murderers are obviously getting mixed up in their ideologies, firstly one of them says to bring 'our' troops home while the other is referring to British solider's killing Muslims in 'our' lands. Two sick twisted individuals with warped minds who have been moulded and shaped by some one into these actions.
A little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
This warped minds comment struck a chord with me. Can we really say that the media fed masses here in the west are not getting their minds "warped" so to speak. Do we really know what we are talking about when it comes to what is happening out there? I dont think we are. No doubt these men have been warped with a different perspective on the wests involvement in these conflicts. The question is ..who is closer to the truth? Shock and instilling panic are well know tactics of the guerrilla. These guys are as sane as you and me..make no doubt about it
I am not denying the fact that they are completely sane and lucid in the act of what they did, my point is that on the very basic level of taking a meat clever to a fellow human being, blow after blow to attempt to behead them, completely soaked in blood and yet able to still attempt to justify it. To me on the very basic human level that is completely warped and anyone's brain who functions in a way that allows them to justify that type of action is 'warped'.
The personal aspect of it is hard to fathom, i.e. looking your victim in the eye and carrying out the act of hacking them to death, but the end result is just the same as sitting in an Apache helicopter and pushing a button.
Quote from: southdown on May 23, 2013, 11:13:06 AM
Those men were freely walking about yielding weapons. The footage showed and old lady casually walking by. They could easily have attacked more people in that period when they were freely walking around. Madness.
But they didn't, they picked their target as a member of the British Army and their work was done. If they'd started slashing all around them would we be talking about collateral damage?
Are we in the civilised west the hypocrites here?
Quote from: southdown on May 23, 2013, 09:40:20 AM
Sickening. reports suggest it took 20 minutes for police to arrive :-\
It took me 2 hours yesterday to drive from Chelsea to the M25 yesterday. The armed police were actually quick, given how choked the city was with traffic. They probably should have caught the tube instead.
Yes the incident yesterday was completely abhorrent but equally the tirade of racism pouring out on Facebook and Twitter is equally abhorrent.
Why must uninformed people feel the need to comment on things unnecessarily. It was a horrible crime and the perpetrators and anyone they are allied to should be brought to justice. Why people feel the need to say all blacks, pakistani's, muslims should all be put to death is beyond me!
The man with the cleaver knows who he is attacking as he was face to face.
The man in the apache helicopter is pressing a button that will release 400 rounds a minute into a building full of people. He doesnt know his target.
Don't understand why this is being described as a terrorist attack. A 75 year old Muslim grandfather was murdered at the start of the month in Birmingham on his way home from prayers. He was not robbed, but stabbed in the back so viciously that the wounds penetrated his chest. This was rightly described as a racist attack. I fail to see the difference between these two attacks, just because the perpetrators were Muslim and shouting allahu akbar, instead of some far right wing rhetoric! The media, and subsequently the government description that this was a terrorist attack does nothing but scaremonger the average citizen and gives ammunition to these far right wing groups such as the EDL and the BNP!
Dead muslims don't make good headlines. :(
country at war ,Soldier dies
no story, move on
Quote from: tyrone exile on May 23, 2013, 12:33:20 PM
Don't understand why this is being described as a terrorist attack. A 75 year old Muslim grandfather was murdered at the start of the month in Birmingham on his way home from prayers. He was not robbed, but stabbed in the back so viciously that the wounds penetrated his chest. This was rightly described as a racist attack. I fail to see the difference between these two attacks, just because the perpetrators were Muslim and shouting allahu akbar, instead of some far right wing rhetoric! The media, and subsequently the government description that this was a terrorist attack does nothing but scaremonger the average citizen and gives ammunition to these far right wing groups such as the EDL and the BNP!
Indeed - when does a murder become a terrorist attack?
I found it interesting that in his rant to the camera he referred to the British soldiers as
our troops. Clearly mixing up where he was from.
They should have listened to Enoch Powell!
Quote from: tyrone exile on May 23, 2013, 12:33:20 PM
Don't understand why this is being described as a terrorist attack. A 75 year old Muslim grandfather was murdered at the start of the month in Birmingham on his way home from prayers. He was not robbed, but stabbed in the back so viciously that the wounds penetrated his chest. This was rightly described as a racist attack. I fail to see the difference between these two attacks, just because the perpetrators were Muslim and shouting allahu akbar, instead of some far right wing rhetoric! The media, and subsequently the government description that this was a terrorist attack does nothing but scaremonger the average citizen and gives ammunition to these far right wing groups such as the EDL and the BNP!
Police said it may have been a racist attack. I expect to hear it wasn't.
They have CCTV footage and if it was a white attacker i am sure they would have said by now.
Of course if it had been a 75 year old white Grandfather stabbed no mention would have been made of a possible racist attack. Even if the attacker was non-white.
Quote from: Count 10 on May 23, 2013, 03:34:32 PM
They should have listened to Enoch Powell!
::)
interesting
Quote from: haranguerer on May 23, 2013, 08:27:43 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 22, 2013, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 10:16:09 PM
Seen some video's from ITN. Shocking - the guys who did it are clean nuts. Calmly talking to the camera, apologizing that women in the vicinity had to witness it....
So not at all nuts then
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Just because some people place a lower value on life than you do, and are more willing to take it, does not make them nuts. Not does it make them nuts that they chose to do it by hacking at someone. They wanted to make a statement, and shock is the most effective tool of doing so. They knew what they were doing, and I for one would feel that out of the many murders committed annually, this is one where a plea for insanity would have no grounds whatsoever.
Oh, and it wasn't a random stranger-they knew what they were doing.
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
QuoteFeck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
.......on a discussion forum without it being discussed, please?
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
Quote from: theticklemister on May 23, 2013, 12:27:18 PM
The man with the cleaver knows who he is attacking as he was face to face.
The man in the apache helicopter is pressing a button that will release 400 rounds a minute into a building full of people. He doesnt know his target.
+1
Awful incident yesterday, but these awful incidents are happening every day in Afghanistan, and have been perpetrated, by his own admission, by Harry Hewitt of Buckingham Palace, London
As for Boris Johnson, every time he opens his mouth just reiterates what an out-of-touch buffoon he is
Quote from: screenexile on May 23, 2013, 11:58:13 AM
Yes the incident yesterday was completely abhorrent but equally the tirade of racism pouring out on Facebook and Twitter is equally abhorrent.
Why must uninformed people feel the need to comment on things unnecessarily. It was a horrible crime and the perpetrators and anyone they are allied to should be brought to justice. Why people feel the need to say all blacks, pakistani's, muslims should all be put to death is beyond me!
That was my first thought when I saw the Gaaboard thread title "Woolwich Islamic Terrorist Attack". Some people are suckers for cheap propaganda. Perhaps the British Army blowing someone to smithereens in Afghanistan or Iraq is regarded as a humane christian act and long may it continue 'til the last drop of oil is safe.
You would never imagine a British soldier beheading someone and pose for a photo...........................
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-smQ8IN_J9Ko/UEkeYElL8bI/AAAAAAAAAH4/pbQKb-bxxy8/s1600/Royal+Marine.JPG)
Imo it's only the method of the attack that is actually causing so many issues. Had that soldier been shot, and the perpetrators fucked off, there would be parallels drawn so close as to make people think more carefully about the circumstances and causes.
Those guys believe strongly in their cause. Some of us may have some sympathy for their cause. But given its unlikely many agree with what they did, I wonder where people think they went wrong- in killing a soldier, or doing it in such a bloody way?
Just food for thought. There's always a tendency to distance people who do stuff like this by saying they're nuts, or psychos, or brainwashed, or just different fundamentally in some way from each of us, because it makes us feel better about ourselves, and safer too, when in actual fact, there's little difference, and in particular members of 'terrorist' organisations have found to be very stable individuals.
Britain is reaping what it has sown....far too liberal in who it allows into the country.....and then look at the saga of Abu Qatada and Abu Hamza......all paid for by the tax payer....you couldn't make it up!
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
I believe to be able to butcher someone on the street, have their blood dripping off your hands and be calmly talking to the public and the media shortly thereafter would indicate some level of insanity or pure evil. I am not saying someone who commits a horrific crime like that should receive lesser punishment on grounds of insanity but I don't believe a "normal" human being has the capacity to do what those guys did, whether it was to a random stranger or not.....
I haven't thought much about the people who make the arms length decisions. I can imagine they have great responsibility weighing down on them and suffer afterwards from regret or remorse for the atrocities. I can imagine too they would try to offset this through some sense (be it false or not) of having done it for the greater good.
Personally I am not equipped to kill en masse as these politicians and "movers and shakers" are. Nor am I equipped to carry out those orders and kill people and write it off as "just doing my job".
Thankfully and unfortunately there are people in this world who can make decisions and others who can carry them out.
http://toryardvaark.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/tony-blair-george-bush-white-house.jpg
The war on terror is pointless. RIP that squaddie and everyone killed in afghanistan this week.
Quote from: Count 10 on May 23, 2013, 06:31:45 PM
Britain is reaping what it has sown....far too liberal in who it allows into the country.....and then look at the saga of Abu Qatada and Abu Hamza......all paid for by the tax payer....you couldn't make it up! Hundreds of years of plundering, murdering, oppressing etc in other peoples' countries
Straightened that out for you ;)
Quote from: theticklemister on May 23, 2013, 12:27:18 PM
The man with the cleaver knows who he is attacking as he was face to face.
The man in the apache helicopter is pressing a button that will release 400 rounds a minute into a building full of people. He doesnt know his target.
End result is the same - someone or many dead and mutilated.
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
I believe to be able to butcher someone on the street, have their blood dripping off your hands and be calmly talking to the public and the media shortly thereafter would indicate some level of insanity or pure evil. I am not saying someone who commits a horrific crime like that should receive lesser punishment on grounds of insanity but I don't believe a "normal" human being has the capacity to do what those guys did, whether it was to a random stranger or not.....
I haven't thought much about the people who make the arms length decisions. I can imagine they have great responsibility weighing down on them and suffer afterwards from regret or remorse for the atrocities. I can imagine too they would try to offset this through some sense (be it false or not) of having done it for the greater good.
Personally I am not equipped to kill en masse as these politicians and "movers and shakers" are. Nor am I equipped to carry out those orders and kill people and write it off as "just doing my job".
Thankfully and unfortunately there are people in this world who can make decisions and others who can carry them out.
You'd be surprised what 'normal' human beings can do. Butcher someone on a London street, walk out of a bar leaving a bomb under the table, shoot someone in front of their children...
The thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the fact that unarmed police had to wait at the bottom of the street for the peelers with the guns to arrive. What if the two murderers had started on someone else, what would they have done? Would they have been expected to tackle two armed men with only truncheons to protect themselves and the public? Time the British police moved with the times and carried side arms as a matter of course.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 23, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
I believe to be able to butcher someone on the street, have their blood dripping off your hands and be calmly talking to the public and the media shortly thereafter would indicate some level of insanity or pure evil. I am not saying someone who commits a horrific crime like that should receive lesser punishment on grounds of insanity but I don't believe a "normal" human being has the capacity to do what those guys did, whether it was to a random stranger or not.....
I haven't thought much about the people who make the arms length decisions. I can imagine they have great responsibility weighing down on them and suffer afterwards from regret or remorse for the atrocities. I can imagine too they would try to offset this through some sense (be it false or not) of having done it for the greater good.
Personally I am not equipped to kill en masse as these politicians and "movers and shakers" are. Nor am I equipped to carry out those orders and kill people and write it off as "just doing my job".
Thankfully and unfortunately there are people in this world who can make decisions and others who can carry them out.
You'd be surprised what 'normal' human beings can do. Butcher someone on a London street, walk out of a bar leaving a bomb under the table, shoot someone in front of their children...
The thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the fact that unarmed police had to wait at the bottom of the street for the peelers with the guns to arrive. What if the two murderers had started on someone else, what would they have done? Would they have been expected to tackle two armed men with only truncheons to protect themselves and the public? Time the British police moved with the times and carried side arms as a matter of course.
Yes, because that works so well in the USA.
Allow me if you will to state my dire and depressing synopsis of what we saw yesterday and matters relating to it.
In recent years especially post 9/11 in multicultural England towns with large Muslim communities have seen the slow entrenching and segregation of cultural and religious groups. One in particular being Luton. This town by no coincidence has spawned both radical islamist groups and the EDL. Coupling multicultural society with post-colonialism and the wests insatiable need for oil it is inevitable that there would be conflict abroad and resentment at home.
One gets the sense that the decent into sectarian violence almost on a level with that of the troubles is not all that far away. The economic depression in Europe is starting to put a strain on community relations and given that loyalty to a state is usually low within immigrant communities and particularly those from very different cultural backgrounds and possibly coming from the poorer side of history, it should not surprise us to see rioting and other outbursts against states they may feel they owe nothing to. See Stockholm.
Only a few weeks ago a group of young muslim men were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Their target was an EDL march. While we may revile the EDL, they did not fall out of a tree and they do have the right to march and protest within certain limits. We can only imagine what the reprisals may have been for a successful attack on this march. You get the feeling that tit-for-tat violence may spiral out of control and who knows where that may lead.
Also recent events and challenges to traditions has brought thinkers on the right to start calling into question what is happening to European society. They have accused liberalism of having lead us into being unable to define ourselves and defend ourselves. Last week in what some thought was an act against gay marriage, Dominique Venner placed an envelope on the altar at Notre Dame cathedral in Paris. He then shot himself in the head in front of startled tourists. Venner was, as he wrote in his letter, for a common, greater good removing his own life, hoping younger men will be inspired to reverse Europe's decline and secure its destiny. Venner hoped, and we may yet see, that right wing opposition may take radical action in future to achieve this. Of course Brevik got there first.
We supposedly live in an age of tolerance. But tolerance is a dangerous word, for what does it really mean. That we do not love but merely put up with that which we'd rather not have in our midst. So now we lie with the strangest of bedfellows, I hate to be so pessimistic but we may find that tolerance has its limits and the multicultural ideology while it seemed like a nice idea back in the 1960's may not be worth all the trouble.
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Quote from: Hardy on May 24, 2013, 12:35:45 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 23, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
I believe to be able to butcher someone on the street, have their blood dripping off your hands and be calmly talking to the public and the media shortly thereafter would indicate some level of insanity or pure evil. I am not saying someone who commits a horrific crime like that should receive lesser punishment on grounds of insanity but I don't believe a "normal" human being has the capacity to do what those guys did, whether it was to a random stranger or not.....
I haven't thought much about the people who make the arms length decisions. I can imagine they have great responsibility weighing down on them and suffer afterwards from regret or remorse for the atrocities. I can imagine too they would try to offset this through some sense (be it false or not) of having done it for the greater good.
Personally I am not equipped to kill en masse as these politicians and "movers and shakers" are. Nor am I equipped to carry out those orders and kill people and write it off as "just doing my job".
Thankfully and unfortunately there are people in this world who can make decisions and others who can carry them out.
You'd be surprised what 'normal' human beings can do. Butcher someone on a London street, walk out of a bar leaving a bomb under the table, shoot someone in front of their children...
The thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the fact that unarmed police had to wait at the bottom of the street for the peelers with the guns to arrive. What if the two murderers had started on someone else, what would they have done? Would they have been expected to tackle two armed men with only truncheons to protect themselves and the public? Time the British police moved with the times and carried side arms as a matter of course.
Yes, because that works so well in the USA.
Right, lets arm the bobbies with lollipops ffs, I despise this kind of stupidity, i would rather these two cnuts were shot in the head and killed before one more civilian got chopped to pieces, some of you lads on here need to catch yourselves on for the love of pete!
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 05:03:18 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 24, 2013, 12:35:45 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 23, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
I believe to be able to butcher someone on the street, have their blood dripping off your hands and be calmly talking to the public and the media shortly thereafter would indicate some level of insanity or pure evil. I am not saying someone who commits a horrific crime like that should receive lesser punishment on grounds of insanity but I don't believe a "normal" human being has the capacity to do what those guys did, whether it was to a random stranger or not.....
I haven't thought much about the people who make the arms length decisions. I can imagine they have great responsibility weighing down on them and suffer afterwards from regret or remorse for the atrocities. I can imagine too they would try to offset this through some sense (be it false or not) of having done it for the greater good.
Personally I am not equipped to kill en masse as these politicians and "movers and shakers" are. Nor am I equipped to carry out those orders and kill people and write it off as "just doing my job".
Thankfully and unfortunately there are people in this world who can make decisions and others who can carry them out.
You'd be surprised what 'normal' human beings can do. Butcher someone on a London street, walk out of a bar leaving a bomb under the table, shoot someone in front of their children...
The thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the fact that unarmed police had to wait at the bottom of the street for the peelers with the guns to arrive. What if the two murderers had started on someone else, what would they have done? Would they have been expected to tackle two armed men with only truncheons to protect themselves and the public? Time the British police moved with the times and carried side arms as a matter of course.
Yes, because that works so well in the USA.
Right, lets arm the bobbies with lollipops ffs, I despise this kind of stupidity, i would rather these two cnuts were shot in the head and killed before one more civilian got chopped to pieces, some of you lads on here need to catch yourselves on for the love of pete!
Trying to legislate for madness is a quick way to dangerous laws. Just because someone doesn't' agree with you doesn't mean you should throw your toys out of the pram and blame everyone else for being 'wrong'.
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
dang whitey, i think i want to have your babbies! :)
Quote from: Hardy on May 24, 2013, 12:35:45 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 23, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
I believe to be able to butcher someone on the street, have their blood dripping off your hands and be calmly talking to the public and the media shortly thereafter would indicate some level of insanity or pure evil. I am not saying someone who commits a horrific crime like that should receive lesser punishment on grounds of insanity but I don't believe a "normal" human being has the capacity to do what those guys did, whether it was to a random stranger or not.....
I haven't thought much about the people who make the arms length decisions. I can imagine they have great responsibility weighing down on them and suffer afterwards from regret or remorse for the atrocities. I can imagine too they would try to offset this through some sense (be it false or not) of having done it for the greater good.
Personally I am not equipped to kill en masse as these politicians and "movers and shakers" are. Nor am I equipped to carry out those orders and kill people and write it off as "just doing my job".
Thankfully and unfortunately there are people in this world who can make decisions and others who can carry them out.
You'd be surprised what 'normal' human beings can do. Butcher someone on a London street, walk out of a bar leaving a bomb under the table, shoot someone in front of their children...
The thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the fact that unarmed police had to wait at the bottom of the street for the peelers with the guns to arrive. What if the two murderers had started on someone else, what would they have done? Would they have been expected to tackle two armed men with only truncheons to protect themselves and the public? Time the British police moved with the times and carried side arms as a matter of course.
Yes, because that works so well in the USA.
It works well enough in most European countries - why focus on the USA?
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Ah the paddy turned yank....watch those pom-poms don't get wet ;D
How convenient to forget about Saudi oil, Saudi investments on Wall St, Saudi purchase of arms etc....it's the "monkey" religion keeping you lot afloat.
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
From sea to shining sea..............
Fair play to the old Americans.
The best bunch of lads ye could wish to meet.
Man walking along street gets knocked down and then is hacked to death by radical islamists who are not afraid to die themselves. Someone take me through how arming police has anything to do with this story?
And what is a monkey religion?
Quote from: thejuice on May 24, 2013, 01:18:52 AM
Allow me if you will to state my dire and depressing synopsis of what we saw yesterday and matters relating to it.
In recent years especially post 9/11 in multicultural England towns with large Muslim communities have seen the slow entrenching and segregation of cultural and religious groups. One in particular being Luton. This town by no coincidence has spawned both radical islamist groups and the EDL. Coupling multicultural society with post-colonialism and the wests insatiable need for oil it is inevitable that there would be conflict abroad and resentment at home.
One gets the sense that the decent into sectarian violence almost on a level with that of the troubles is not all that far away. The economic depression in Europe is starting to put a strain on community relations and given that loyalty to a state is usually low within immigrant communities and particularly those from very different cultural backgrounds and possibly coming from the poorer side of history, it should not surprise us to see rioting and other outbursts against states they may feel they owe nothing to. See Stockholm.
Only a few weeks ago a group of young muslim men were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Their target was an EDL march. While we may revile the EDL, they did not fall out of a tree and they do have the right to march and protest within certain limits. We can only imagine what the reprisals may have been for a successful attack on this march. You get the feeling that tit-for-tat violence may spiral out of control and who knows where that may lead.
Also recent events and challenges to traditions has brought thinkers on the right to start calling into question what is happening to European society. They have accused liberalism of having lead us into being unable to define ourselves and defend ourselves. Last week in what some thought was an act against gay marriage, Dominique Venner placed an envelope on the altar at Notre Dame cathedral in Paris. He then shot himself in the head in front of startled tourists. Venner was, as he wrote in his letter, for a common, greater good removing his own life, hoping younger men will be inspired to reverse Europe's decline and secure its destiny. Venner hoped, and we may yet see, that right wing opposition may take radical action in future to achieve this. Of course Brevik got there first.
We supposedly live in an age of tolerance. But tolerance is a dangerous word, for what does it really mean. That we do not love but merely put up with that which we'd rather not have in our midst. So now we lie with the strangest of bedfellows, I hate to be so pessimistic but we may find that tolerance has its limits and the multicultural ideology while it seemed like a nice idea back in the 1960's may not be worth all the trouble.
I think that's a good summary juice but if you look at the North the cost of allowing the society to slip into nihilism is too high and in nobody's interest. It is not like some switch that can be reversed either.
It isn't good for business and those are the ones who decide most things.
I was at a conference on the banks yesterday and Ajay Chopra from the IMF was talking about a system for bank resolution. Needs to be credible and have enough resources behind it. The same goes for integration of poor Muslims into British society.
Any work with disadvantaged sectors needs money . You can't tell 10 year olds with behavioural problems to cop on and do their homework like the middle class kids.
They need one on one support and people who can show them an alternative path.
A lot of the more radical Muslim stuff that draws disaffected people in is bollocks but of course it's not helpful either for the Yanks and the Brits to bomb Pakistan and Afghanistan whenever they fancy.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 24, 2013, 06:44:01 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 24, 2013, 12:35:45 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 23, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on May 23, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 23, 2013, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on May 22, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
To murder a random stranger in cold blood hacking off his body parts and then speak calmly to bystanders would be clean nuts in my book.....
Feck me can I not even express my opinion on something....
So the movers and shakers who inflict the same fate on countless thousands at arms length from a desk are what??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w)
I believe to be able to butcher someone on the street, have their blood dripping off your hands and be calmly talking to the public and the media shortly thereafter would indicate some level of insanity or pure evil. I am not saying someone who commits a horrific crime like that should receive lesser punishment on grounds of insanity but I don't believe a "normal" human being has the capacity to do what those guys did, whether it was to a random stranger or not.....
I haven't thought much about the people who make the arms length decisions. I can imagine they have great responsibility weighing down on them and suffer afterwards from regret or remorse for the atrocities. I can imagine too they would try to offset this through some sense (be it false or not) of having done it for the greater good.
Personally I am not equipped to kill en masse as these politicians and "movers and shakers" are. Nor am I equipped to carry out those orders and kill people and write it off as "just doing my job".
Thankfully and unfortunately there are people in this world who can make decisions and others who can carry them out.
You'd be surprised what 'normal' human beings can do. Butcher someone on a London street, walk out of a bar leaving a bomb under the table, shoot someone in front of their children...
The thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the fact that unarmed police had to wait at the bottom of the street for the peelers with the guns to arrive. What if the two murderers had started on someone else, what would they have done? Would they have been expected to tackle two armed men with only truncheons to protect themselves and the public? Time the British police moved with the times and carried side arms as a matter of course.
Yes, because that works so well in the USA.
It works well enough in most European countries - why focus on the USA?
Have to agree with Myles on this one. If it is fair game for criminals to carry guns then....
Quote from: theskull1 on May 24, 2013, 09:09:37 AM
Man walking along street gets knocked down and then is hacked to death by radical islamists who are not afraid to die themselves. Someone take me through how arming police has anything to do with this story?
Quote from: EC Unique on May 24, 2013, 09:34:14 AM
Have to agree with Myles on this one. If it is fair game for criminals to carry guns then....
::) WT....fffff (I'll not say it :) ) ...are you lot gun shop owners trying to drum up trade?
Please answer the question above and start a new thread on a different topic if the answer is ..."It has nothing to do with it"
Quote from: Count 10 on May 23, 2013, 06:31:45 PM
Britain is reaping what it has sown....far too liberal in who it allows into the country.....and then look at the saga of Abu Qatada and Abu Hamza......all paid for by the tax payer....you couldn't make it up!
actually i would have to agree with this.
Britain is probably the most liberal of all democracies
that is why they are inundated with illegal immmigrants every year
to be fair that shouldmnt be a reason to criticise them
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback
Was the London killing of a British soldier 'terrorism'?
Two men yesterday engaged in a horrific act of violence on the streets of London by using what appeared to be a meat cleaver to hack to death a British soldier. In the wake of claims that the assailants shouted "Allahu Akbar" during the killing, and a video showing one of the assailants citing Islam as well as a desire to avenge and stop continuous UK violence against Muslims, media outlets (including the Guardian) and British politicians instantly characterized the attack as "terrorism".
That this was a barbaric and horrendous act goes without saying, but given the legal, military, cultural and political significance of the term "terrorism", it is vital to ask: is that term really applicable to this act of violence? To begin with, in order for an act of violence to be "terrorism", many argue that it must deliberately target civilians. That's the most common means used by those who try to distinguish the violence engaged in by western nations from that used by the "terrorists": sure, we kill civilians sometimes, but we don't deliberately target them the way the "terrorists" do.
But here, just as was true for Nidal Hasan's attack on a Fort Hood military base, the victim of the violence was a soldier of a nation at war, not a civilian. He was stationed at an army barracks quite close to the attack. The killer made clear that he knew he had attacked a soldier when he said afterward: "this British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
The US, the UK and its allies have repeatedly killed Muslim civilians over the past decade (and before that), but defenders of those governments insist that this cannot be "terrorism" because it is combatants, not civilians, who are the targets. Can it really be the case that when western nations continuously kill Muslim civilians, that's not "terrorism", but when Muslims kill western soldiers, that is terrorism? Amazingly, the US has even imprisoned people at Guantanamo and elsewhere on accusations of "terrorism" who are accused of nothing more than engaging in violence against US soldiers who invaded their country.
It's true that the soldier who was killed yesterday was out of uniform and not engaged in combat at the time he was attacked. But the same is true for the vast bulk of killings carried out by the US and its allies over the last decade, where people are killed in their homes, in their cars, at work, while asleep (in fact, the US has re-defined "militant" to mean "any military-aged male in a strike zone"). Indeed, at a recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on drone killings, Gen. James Cartwright and Sen. Lindsey Graham both agreed that the US has the right to kill its enemies even while they are "asleep", that you don't "have to wake them up before you shoot them" and "make it a fair fight". Once you declare that the "entire globe is a battlefield" (which includes London) and that any "combatant" (defined as broadly as possible) is fair game to be killed - as the US has done - then how can the killing of a solider of a nation engaged in that war, horrific though it is, possibly be "terrorism"?
When I asked on Twitter this morning what specific attributes of this attack make it "terrorism" given that it was a soldier who was killed, the most frequent answer I received was that "terrorism" means any act of violence designed to achieve political change, or more specifically, to induce a civilian population to change their government or its policies of out fear of violence. Because, this line of reasoning went, one of the attackers here said that "the only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily" and warned that "you people will never be safe. Remove your government", the intent of the violence was to induce political change, thus making it "terrorism".
That is at least a coherent definition. But doesn't that then encompass the vast majority of violent acts undertaken by the US and its allies over the last decade? What was the US/UK "shock and awe" attack on Baghdad if not a campaign to intimidate the population with a massive show of violence into submitting to the invading armies and ceasing their support for Saddam's regime? That was clearly its functional intent and even its stated intent. That definition would also immediately include the massive air bombings of German cities during World War II. It would include the Central American civilian-slaughtering militias supported, funded and armed by the Reagan administration throughout the 1980s, the Bangledeshi death squads trained and funded by the UK, and countless other groups supported by the west that used violence against civilians to achieve political ends.
The ongoing US drone attacks unquestionably have the effect, and one could reasonably argue the intent, of terrorizing the local populations so that they cease harboring or supporting those the west deems to be enemies. The brutal sanctions regime imposed by the west on Iraq and Iran, which kills large numbers of people, clearly has the intent of terrorizing the population into changing its governments' policies and even the government itself. How can one create a definition of "terrorism" that includes Wednesday's London attack on this British soldier without including many acts of violence undertaken by the US, the UK and its allies and partners? Can that be done?
I know this vital caveat will fall on deaf ears for some, but nothing about this discussion has anything to do with justifiability. An act can be vile, evil, and devoid of justification without being "terrorism": indeed, most of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century, from the Holocaust to the wanton slaughter of Stalin and Pol Pot and the massive destruction of human life in Vietnam, are not typically described as "terrorism". To question whether something qualifies as "terrorism" is not remotely to justify or even mitigate it. That should go without saying, though I know it doesn't.
The reason it's so crucial to ask this question is that there are few terms - if there are any - that pack the political, cultural and emotional punch that "terrorism" provides. When it comes to the actions of western governments, it is a conversation-stopper, justifying virtually anything those governments want to do. It's a term that is used to start wars, engage in sustained military action, send people to prison for decades or life, to target suspects for due-process-free execution, shield government actions behind a wall of secrecy, and instantly shape public perceptions around the world. It matters what the definition of the term is, or whether there is a consistent and coherent definition. It matters a great deal.
There is ample scholarship proving that the term has no such clear or consistently applied meaning (see the penultimate section here, and my interview with Remi Brulin here). It is very hard to escape the conclusion that, operationally, the term has no real definition at this point beyond "violence engaged in by Muslims in retaliation against western violence toward Muslims". When media reports yesterday began saying that "there are indications that this may be act of terror", it seems clear that what was really meant was: "there are indications that the perpetrators were Muslims driven by political grievances against the west" (earlier this month, an elderly British Muslim was stabbed to death in an apparent anti-Muslim hate crime and nobody called that "terrorism"). Put another way, the term at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states.
One last point: in the wake of the Boston Marathon attacks, I documented that the perpetrators of virtually every recent attempted and successful "terrorist" attack against the west cited as their motive the continuous violence by western states against Muslim civilians. It's certainly true that Islam plays an important role in making these individuals willing to fight and die for this perceived just cause (just as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and nationalism lead some people to be willing to fight and die for their cause). But the proximate cause of these attacks are plainly political grievances: namely, the belief that engaging in violence against aggressive western nations is the only way to deter and/or avenge western violence that kills Muslim civilians.
Add the London knife attack on this soldier to that growing list. One of the perpetrators said on camera that "the only reason we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily" and "we apologize that women had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same." As I've endlessly pointed out, highlighting this causation doesn't remotely justify the acts. But it should make it anything other than surprising. On Twitter last night, Michael Moore sardonically summarized western reaction to the London killing this way:
I am outraged that we can't kill people in other counties without them trying to kill us!"
Basic human nature simply does not allow you to cheer on your government as it carries out massive violence in multiple countries around the world and then have you be completely immune from having that violence returned.
Its Terrorism when some one does it to the english and Nation Building when they do it to Johnny Foriengner
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-british-foreign-policy-role
Woolwich attack: of course British foreign policy had a role
Joe Glenton
I am a former soldier. I completed one tour of duty in Afghanistan, refused on legal and moral grounds to serve a second tour, and spent five months in a military prison as a result. When the news about the attack in Woolwich broke, by pure coincidence Ross Caputi was crashing on my sofa. Ross is a soft-spoken ex-US marine turned film-maker who served in Iraq and witnessed the pillaging and irradiation of Falluja. He is also a native of Boston, the scene of a recent homegrown terror attack. Together, we watched the news, and right away we were certain that what we were seeing was informed by the misguided military adventures in which we had taken part.
So at the very outset, and before the rising tide of prejudice and pseudo-patriotism fully encloses us, let us be clear: while nothing can justify the savage killing in Woolwich yesterday of a man since confirmed to have been a serving British soldier, it should not be hard to explain why the murder happened.
These awful events cannot be explained in the almost Texan terms of Colonel Richard Kemp, who served as commander of British forces in Afghanistan in 2001. He tweeted on last night that they were "not about Iraq or Afghanistan", but were an attack on "our way of life". Plenty of others are saying the same.
But let's start by examining what emerged from the mouths of the assailants themselves. In an accent that was pure London, according to one of the courageous women who intervened at the scene, one alleged killer claimed he was "... fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan ...". It is unclear whether it was the same man, or his alleged co-assailant, who said "... bring our [Note: our] troops home so we can all live in peace".
It should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home. We need to recognise that, given the continued role our government has chosen to play in the US imperial project in the Middle East, we are lucky that these attacks are so few and far between.
It is equally important to point out, however, that rejection of and opposition to the toxic wars that informed yesterday's attacks is by no means a "Muslim" trait. Vast swaths of the British population also stand in opposition to these wars, including many veterans of the wars like myself and Ross, as well as serving soldiers I speak to who cannot be named here for fear of persecution.
Yet this anti-war view, so widely held and strongly felt, finds no expression in a parliament for whom the merest whiff of boot polish or military jargon causes a fit of "Tommy this, Tommy that ..." jingoism. The fact is, there are two majority views in this country: one in the political body that says war, war and more war; and one in the population which says it's had enough of giving up its sons and daughter abroad and now, again, at home.
For 12 years British Muslims have been set upon, pilloried and alienated by successive governments and by the media for things that they did not do. We must say clearly that the alleged actions of these two men are theirs alone, regardless of being informed by the wars, and we should not descend into yet another round of collective responsibility peddling.
Indeed, if there is collective responsibility for the killings, it belongs to the hawks whose policies have caused bloodbaths – directly, as in Afghanistan and Iraq, and indirectly in places as far apart as Woolwich and Boston, which in turn have created political space for the far right to peddle their hatred, as we saw in the immediate aftermath of the Woolwich attack.
What we must do now is straightforward enough. Our own responsibilities are first of all to make sure innocents are not subject to blanket punishment for things that they did not do, and to force our government – safe in their houses – to put an end to Britain's involvement in the vicious foreign occupations that have again created bloodshed in London
Couldn't agree more with those articles GHD. Absolutely horrendous act carried out by those two men but you can be sure that we won't see the grotesque images of innocent men, women and children mutilated by drone strikes carried out from 20,000 feet on ITV or BBC.
The parallels with the troubles are clear. Oppression will always cause resistance, unfortunately some people's resistance will be violent in nature.
A line from Joe McDonnell springs to mind; "You dare to call me a terrorist, while you look down your gun."
Just because he has a gun in your face doesn't change the babarity of his acts and ideology. That mini-parable defeats itself.
Every side has blood on their hands. Compromise is a foreign concept to a lot of those involved, and I don't just mean right-wing nuts and religious fundamentalists running about chopping peoples heads off.
Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2013, 12:13:37 PM
Just because he has a gun in your face doesn't change the babarity of his acts and ideology. That mini-parable defeats itself.
Every side has blood on their hands. Compromise is a foreign concept to a lot of those involved, and I don't just mean right-wing nuts and religious fundamentalists running about chopping peoples heads off.
War is barbaric, Syferus. The weapon used is irrelevant.
It would be of no comfort to the bereaved if their relative was killed with a pencil rather than a knife.
An Imam from that "monkey" religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00WRRD7Yud4
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2013, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: thejuice on May 24, 2013, 01:18:52 AM
Allow me if you will to state my dire and depressing synopsis of what we saw yesterday and matters relating to it.
In recent years especially post 9/11 in multicultural England towns with large Muslim communities have seen the slow entrenching and segregation of cultural and religious groups. One in particular being Luton. This town by no coincidence has spawned both radical islamist groups and the EDL. Coupling multicultural society with post-colonialism and the wests insatiable need for oil it is inevitable that there would be conflict abroad and resentment at home.
One gets the sense that the decent into sectarian violence almost on a level with that of the troubles is not all that far away. The economic depression in Europe is starting to put a strain on community relations and given that loyalty to a state is usually low within immigrant communities and particularly those from very different cultural backgrounds and possibly coming from the poorer side of history, it should not surprise us to see rioting and other outbursts against states they may feel they owe nothing to. See Stockholm.
Only a few weeks ago a group of young muslim men were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Their target was an EDL march. While we may revile the EDL, they did not fall out of a tree and they do have the right to march and protest within certain limits. We can only imagine what the reprisals may have been for a successful attack on this march. You get the feeling that tit-for-tat violence may spiral out of control and who knows where that may lead.
Also recent events and challenges to traditions has brought thinkers on the right to start calling into question what is happening to European society. They have accused liberalism of having lead us into being unable to define ourselves and defend ourselves. Last week in what some thought was an act against gay marriage, Dominique Venner placed an envelope on the altar at Notre Dame cathedral in Paris. He then shot himself in the head in front of startled tourists. Venner was, as he wrote in his letter, for a common, greater good removing his own life, hoping younger men will be inspired to reverse Europe's decline and secure its destiny. Venner hoped, and we may yet see, that right wing opposition may take radical action in future to achieve this. Of course Brevik got there first.
We supposedly live in an age of tolerance. But tolerance is a dangerous word, for what does it really mean. That we do not love but merely put up with that which we'd rather not have in our midst. So now we lie with the strangest of bedfellows, I hate to be so pessimistic but we may find that tolerance has its limits and the multicultural ideology while it seemed like a nice idea back in the 1960's may not be worth all the trouble.
I think that's a good summary juice but if you look at the North the cost of allowing the society to slip into nihilism is too high and in nobody's interest. It is not like some switch that can be reversed either.
It isn't good for business and those are the ones who decide most things.
I was at a conference on the banks yesterday and Ajay Chopra from the IMF was talking about a system for bank resolution. Needs to be credible and have enough resources behind it. The same goes for integration of poor Muslims into British society.
Any work with disadvantaged sectors needs money . You can't tell 10 year olds with behavioural problems to cop on and do their homework like the middle class kids.
They need one on one support and people who can show them an alternative path.
A lot of the more radical Muslim stuff that draws disaffected people in is bollocks but of course it's not helpful either for the Yanks and the Brits to bomb Pakistan and Afghanistan whenever they fancy.
Quote from: give her dixie on May 24, 2013, 10:31:06 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback
Was the London killing of a British soldier 'terrorism'?
Two men yesterday engaged in a horrific act of violence on the streets of London by using what appeared to be a meat cleaver to hack to death a British soldier. In the wake of claims that the assailants shouted "Allahu Akbar" during the killing, and a video showing one of the assailants citing Islam as well as a desire to avenge and stop continuous UK violence against Muslims, media outlets (including the Guardian) and British politicians instantly characterized the attack as "terrorism".
That this was a barbaric and horrendous act goes without saying, but given the legal, military, cultural and political significance of the term "terrorism", it is vital to ask: is that term really applicable to this act of violence? To begin with, in order for an act of violence to be "terrorism", many argue that it must deliberately target civilians. That's the most common means used by those who try to distinguish the violence engaged in by western nations from that used by the "terrorists": sure, we kill civilians sometimes, but we don't deliberately target them the way the "terrorists" do.
But here, just as was true for Nidal Hasan's attack on a Fort Hood military base, the victim of the violence was a soldier of a nation at war, not a civilian. He was stationed at an army barracks quite close to the attack. The killer made clear that he knew he had attacked a soldier when he said afterward: "this British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
The US, the UK and its allies have repeatedly killed Muslim civilians over the past decade (and before that), but defenders of those governments insist that this cannot be "terrorism" because it is combatants, not civilians, who are the targets. Can it really be the case that when western nations continuously kill Muslim civilians, that's not "terrorism", but when Muslims kill western soldiers, that is terrorism? Amazingly, the US has even imprisoned people at Guantanamo and elsewhere on accusations of "terrorism" who are accused of nothing more than engaging in violence against US soldiers who invaded their country.
It's true that the soldier who was killed yesterday was out of uniform and not engaged in combat at the time he was attacked. But the same is true for the vast bulk of killings carried out by the US and its allies over the last decade, where people are killed in their homes, in their cars, at work, while asleep (in fact, the US has re-defined "militant" to mean "any military-aged male in a strike zone"). Indeed, at a recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on drone killings, Gen. James Cartwright and Sen. Lindsey Graham both agreed that the US has the right to kill its enemies even while they are "asleep", that you don't "have to wake them up before you shoot them" and "make it a fair fight". Once you declare that the "entire globe is a battlefield" (which includes London) and that any "combatant" (defined as broadly as possible) is fair game to be killed - as the US has done - then how can the killing of a solider of a nation engaged in that war, horrific though it is, possibly be "terrorism"?
When I asked on Twitter this morning what specific attributes of this attack make it "terrorism" given that it was a soldier who was killed, the most frequent answer I received was that "terrorism" means any act of violence designed to achieve political change, or more specifically, to induce a civilian population to change their government or its policies of out fear of violence. Because, this line of reasoning went, one of the attackers here said that "the only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily" and warned that "you people will never be safe. Remove your government", the intent of the violence was to induce political change, thus making it "terrorism".
That is at least a coherent definition. But doesn't that then encompass the vast majority of violent acts undertaken by the US and its allies over the last decade? What was the US/UK "shock and awe" attack on Baghdad if not a campaign to intimidate the population with a massive show of violence into submitting to the invading armies and ceasing their support for Saddam's regime? That was clearly its functional intent and even its stated intent. That definition would also immediately include the massive air bombings of German cities during World War II. It would include the Central American civilian-slaughtering militias supported, funded and armed by the Reagan administration throughout the 1980s, the Bangledeshi death squads trained and funded by the UK, and countless other groups supported by the west that used violence against civilians to achieve political ends.
The ongoing US drone attacks unquestionably have the effect, and one could reasonably argue the intent, of terrorizing the local populations so that they cease harboring or supporting those the west deems to be enemies. The brutal sanctions regime imposed by the west on Iraq and Iran, which kills large numbers of people, clearly has the intent of terrorizing the population into changing its governments' policies and even the government itself. How can one create a definition of "terrorism" that includes Wednesday's London attack on this British soldier without including many acts of violence undertaken by the US, the UK and its allies and partners? Can that be done?
I know this vital caveat will fall on deaf ears for some, but nothing about this discussion has anything to do with justifiability. An act can be vile, evil, and devoid of justification without being "terrorism": indeed, most of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century, from the Holocaust to the wanton slaughter of Stalin and Pol Pot and the massive destruction of human life in Vietnam, are not typically described as "terrorism". To question whether something qualifies as "terrorism" is not remotely to justify or even mitigate it. That should go without saying, though I know it doesn't.
The reason it's so crucial to ask this question is that there are few terms - if there are any - that pack the political, cultural and emotional punch that "terrorism" provides. When it comes to the actions of western governments, it is a conversation-stopper, justifying virtually anything those governments want to do. It's a term that is used to start wars, engage in sustained military action, send people to prison for decades or life, to target suspects for due-process-free execution, shield government actions behind a wall of secrecy, and instantly shape public perceptions around the world. It matters what the definition of the term is, or whether there is a consistent and coherent definition. It matters a great deal.
There is ample scholarship proving that the term has no such clear or consistently applied meaning (see the penultimate section here, and my interview with Remi Brulin here). It is very hard to escape the conclusion that, operationally, the term has no real definition at this point beyond "violence engaged in by Muslims in retaliation against western violence toward Muslims". When media reports yesterday began saying that "there are indications that this may be act of terror", it seems clear that what was really meant was: "there are indications that the perpetrators were Muslims driven by political grievances against the west" (earlier this month, an elderly British Muslim was stabbed to death in an apparent anti-Muslim hate crime and nobody called that "terrorism"). Put another way, the term at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states.
One last point: in the wake of the Boston Marathon attacks, I documented that the perpetrators of virtually every recent attempted and successful "terrorist" attack against the west cited as their motive the continuous violence by western states against Muslim civilians. It's certainly true that Islam plays an important role in making these individuals willing to fight and die for this perceived just cause (just as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and nationalism lead some people to be willing to fight and die for their cause). But the proximate cause of these attacks are plainly political grievances: namely, the belief that engaging in violence against aggressive western nations is the only way to deter and/or avenge western violence that kills Muslim civilians.
Add the London knife attack on this soldier to that growing list. One of the perpetrators said on camera that "the only reason we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily" and "we apologize that women had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same." As I've endlessly pointed out, highlighting this causation doesn't remotely justify the acts. But it should make it anything other than surprising. On Twitter last night, Michael Moore sardonically summarized western reaction to the London killing this way:
I am outraged that we can't kill people in other counties without them trying to kill us!"
Basic human nature simply does not allow you to cheer on your government as it carries out massive violence in multiple countries around the world and then have you be completely immune from having that violence returned.
Michael Moore is a first class, multi millionaire, hypocritical ****!
Liberals sicken my shite, what these fcukers did had nothing to do with the USA, can the bleeding hearts please find the balls to actually look at what they did and condemn them for it without blaming America, Drones, W, Plankton, Salman rushdie, Holly aged 8, from Kent or ken Dodd and the diddymen!
I was glad to see the Muslim community leaders come out and tell the world these two idiots "Betrayed Allah" They hammered them and hopefully that helps in some small measure, to reduce the number of hate crime attacks on Muslim's because of what they did.
Some sh1t going down in England at present. Fighter jets scrambled to a passenger jet approaching London that should be going to Manchester. Pakistan airways! :o
I was in Ireland right after the 9/11 attacks and the general consensus was that the US got what it deserved for supporting Israel over the Palestinians.
Why don't people just call this for what it is-a bunch of layabouts who never worked a day in their lives, playing the perpetual victim card looking for something to be outraged about.
If there's nothing real-lets invent something!
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey os a WUM.
If not he's a serious thicko ???
+1
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Ignore him, he lives in a black and white work, just like those westerns of old.
God/Allah forbid you ask the question what makes people do these sorts of things.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
Maybe you's should continue that wall all the way from the Mexican border right around the states then. I'll draw up a tender for ye sure!!
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
The reason everyone in Ireland said the yanks asked for "9/11" - should be 11/9 by the way ;)- due to their non critical support for the rogue Israeli State is because it's true.
Nothing to do with some Dagestani immigrants to the US living on welfare.
We have 400,000 unemployed in the 26 Cos and many thousands more in the North not to mention the 300,000 young people who left - Are they all just a bunch of layabouts?
Grand way of avoiding the real causes of "terrorism" - "ah they're all layabouts"
Ignore the disgusting US/Brit and other less enthusiastic Western support for Israel, the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan, the countless thousands dead in Iraq due to the US/Brit illegal immoral invasion of that Country, the selective support for rebel movements ( in Syria/Libya) while conttinuing to support despotic Islamist regimes ( Bahrain, Saudi) etc etc.
Much easier to home in on one event (Boston) and declare that all opposed to US/Brit latter day Crusades are just layabouts.
Now fcuk off back the land of B movies where the goodies wear the white hats and the baddies wear the black hats and leave us adults to our discussion.
By the way it's SUBSIDI
SED ;)
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
The reason everyone in Ireland said the yanks asked for "9/11" - should be 11/9 by the way ;)- due to their non critical support for the rogue Israeli State is because it's true.
Nothing to do with some Dagestani immigrants to the US living on welfare.
We have 400,000 unemployed in the 26 Cos and many thousands more in the North not to mention the 300,000 young people who left - Are they all just a bunch of layabouts?
Grand way of avoiding the real causes of "terrorism" - "ah they're all layabouts"
Ignore the disgusting US/Brit and other less enthusiastic Western support for Israel, the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan, the countless thousands dead in Iraq due to the US/Brit illegal immoral invasion of that Country, the selective support for rebel movements ( in Syria/Libya) while conttinuing to support despotic Islamist regimes ( Bahrain, Saudi) etc etc.
Much easier to home in on one event (Boston) and declare that all opposed to US/Brit latter day Crusades are just layabouts.
Now fcuk off back the land of B movies where the goodies wear the white hats and the baddies wear the black hats and leave us adults to our discussion.
By the way it's SUBSIDISED ;)
LOL.... Good man Rossfan. Why don't we all just hold hands and sing Cum Ba Ya. Did you actually read that before you posted.....You made my day
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 02:45:03 PM
I was in Ireland right after the 9/11 attacks and the general consensus was that the US got what it deserved for supporting Israel over the Palestinians.
It's strange, then, that I didn't hear President McAleese articulate that consensus as she led our National Day of Mourning.
Video footage of the two attackers being shot:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-video-watch-shocking-1907772
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Actually, that's pretty much what he did (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/repudiate). At least you didn't type 'refudiate (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Refudiate)', but you clearly don't know what the word means.
Quote from: Hardy on May 24, 2013, 04:05:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 02:45:03 PM
I was in Ireland right after the 9/11 attacks and the general consensus was that the US got what it deserved for supporting Israel over the Palestinians.
It's strange, then, that I didn't hear President McAleese articulate that consensus as she led our National Day of Mourning.
Hence the word general, she is a political figure and whitey is 100% correct on this.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
The reason everyone in Ireland said the yanks asked for "9/11" - should be 11/9 by the way ;)- due to their non critical support for the rogue Israeli State is because it's true.
Nothing to do with some Dagestani immigrants to the US living on welfare.
We have 400,000 unemployed in the 26 Cos and many thousands more in the North not to mention the 300,000 young people who left - Are they all just a bunch of layabouts?
Grand way of avoiding the real causes of "terrorism" - "ah they're all layabouts"
Ignore the disgusting US/Brit and other less enthusiastic Western support for Israel, the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan, the countless thousands dead in Iraq due to the US/Brit illegal immoral invasion of that Country, the selective support for rebel movements ( in Syria/Libya) while conttinuing to support despotic Islamist regimes ( Bahrain, Saudi) etc etc.
Much easier to home in on one event (Boston) and declare that all opposed to US/Brit latter day Crusades are just layabouts.
Now fcuk off back the land of B movies where the goodies wear the white hats and the baddies wear the black hats and leave us adults to our discussion.
By the way it's SUBSIDISED ;)
It is laughable to compare the unemployed in the US to th Irish situation, there are plenty of jobs in the States, thousands of them go unfilled every day in Wisconsin alone, the unemployed in Ireland have hardly got the same thing going on and a lot of them would love the opportunity to work, just as some of them are lazy bastards with no work in them, like some of the unemployed yanks.
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 24, 2013, 04:05:49 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 02:45:03 PM
I was in Ireland right after the 9/11 attacks and the general consensus was that the US got what it deserved for supporting Israel over the Palestinians.
It's strange, then, that I didn't hear President McAleese articulate that consensus as she led our National Day of Mourning.
Hence the word general, she is a political figure and whitey is 100% correct on this.
References, please to back up such a categorical assertion.
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
Yes very well informed..."monkey religion"...you wouldn't be out of place on the set of Deliverance
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Quote from: Count 10 on May 24, 2013, 06:07:56 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
Yes very well informed..."monkey religion"...you wouldn't be out of place on the set of Deliverance
"monkey religion" feck me that's ignorant as well as racist................................. I think. :o
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:36:44 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on May 24, 2013, 06:07:56 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
Yes very well informed..."monkey religion"...you wouldn't be out of place on the set of Deliverance
"monkey religion" feck me that's ignorant as well as racist................................. I think. :o
Do you reckon he has one tooth, can play the banjo with his toes and loves mashed potatoes ;D
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Are you that thick that you can't face up to the fact that only the yanks entered the war the Nazi's would have won the war? The yanks were the difference makers in WW2.
Your beloved Ruskies were a hateful regime as well, they suppressed the rights of their own people and were despicable but hey, hold the commies up as bastions of light if you will, the fact is the yanks are the most important economic dynasty of the last 100 years, end of!
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Are you that thick that you can't face up to the fact that only the yanks entered the war the Nazi's would have won the war? The yanks were the difference makers in WW2.
Your beloved Ruskies were a hateful regime as well, they suppressed the rights of their own people and were despicable but hey, hold the commies up as bastions of light if you will, the fact is the yanks are the most important economic dynasty of the last 100 years, end of!
Really?
The House of Neo-Con or Lily Liver?
Quote from: muppet on May 24, 2013, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Are you that thick that you can't face up to the fact that only the yanks entered the war the Nazi's would have won the war? The yanks were the difference makers in WW2.
Your beloved Ruskies were a hateful regime as well, they suppressed the rights of their own people and were despicable but hey, hold the commies up as bastions of light if you will, the fact is the yanks are the most important economic dynasty of the last 100 years, end of!
Really?
The House of Neo-Con or Lily Liver?
::) ::) ::) ::)
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Are you that thick that you can't face up to the fact that only the yanks entered the war the Nazi's would have won the war? The yanks were the difference makers in WW2.
Your beloved Ruskies were a hateful regime as well, they suppressed the rights of their own people and were despicable but hey, hold the commies up as bastions of light if you will, the fact is the yanks are the most important economic dynasty of the last 100 years, end of!
I must be thick - even though I do know how apostrophes work - cos I'm going to reply to you ... the Nazis would not have won the war but for the US. The US didn't enter the war until December 1941, more than 2 years after it began. The tide had already begun to turn in Europe. By the time the US was making a significant contribution, namely the Eighth Air Force's daylight bombing campaign on Germany, it was 1943. We'd already had the most significant battle of WWII by that stage at Stalingrad, and we'd also had El Alamein.
Maybe you'll point out where I held the 'commies up as bastions of light' in my post, or mentioned 'important economic dynasties'. Your guff is usually rambling bullshit at the best of times, but you really shouldn't post while drinking (meths by the look of it)
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:56:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 24, 2013, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Are you that thick that you can't face up to the fact that only the yanks entered the war the Nazi's would have won the war? The yanks were the difference makers in WW2.
Your beloved Ruskies were a hateful regime as well, they suppressed the rights of their own people and were despicable but hey, hold the commies up as bastions of light if you will, the fact is the yanks are the most important economic dynasty of the last 100 years, end of!
Really?
The House of Neo-Con or Lily Liver?
::) ::) ::) ::)
I'll explain:
Definition of DYNASTY
1
: a succession of rulers of the same line of descent
2
: a powerful group or family that maintains its position for a considerable time
Well they are mostly Irish.
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 07:03:16 PM
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Are you that thick that you can't face up to the fact that only the yanks entered the war the Nazi's would have won the war? The yanks were the difference makers in WW2.
Your beloved Ruskies were a hateful regime as well, they suppressed the rights of their own people and were despicable but hey, hold the commies up as bastions of light if you will, the fact is the yanks are the most important economic dynasty of the last 100 years, end of!
I must be thick - even though I do know how apostrophes work - cos I'm going to reply to you ... the Nazis would not have won the war but for the US. The US didn't enter the war until December 1941, more than 2 years after it began. The tide had already begun to turn in Europe. By the time the US was making a significant contribution, namely the Eighth Air Force's daylight bombing campaign on Germany, it was 1943. We'd already had the most significant battle of WWII by that stage at Stalingrad, and we'd also had El Alamein.
Maybe you'll point out where I held the 'commies up as bastions of light' in my post, or mentioned 'important economic dynasties'. Your guff is usually rambling bullshit at the best of times, but you really shouldn't post while drinking (meths by the look of it)
I never did drugs in my life kid!
The yanks were in the war prior to December 1941, they were sending everything but manpower to the fighting forces opposing the Nazis and but for them entering the war the brits were fooked.
Hitler should never have went near Russia, he made the same mistake as Napoleon and his countrymen died horribly in their tens of thousands, the Russians won because Hitler was mental enough to have his men fight in winter without the necessary clothing and equipment, tens of thousands froze to death and the Russians would have fell but for mother nature.
Ever been to America homie?
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 08:52:47 PM
I never did drugs in my life kid!
.....Yadda yadda yadda...
Ever been to America homie?
I'd say your favourite movies are
Casablanca and
8 Mile?
Quote from: muppet on May 24, 2013, 08:59:19 PM
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 08:52:47 PM
I never did drugs in my life kid!
.....Yadda yadda yadda...
Ever been to America homie?
I'd say your favourite movies are Casablanca and 8 Mile?
Wrong and wrong again.
WW2 actually turned at the battle of kursk in 43, and the reality is most of the second world war was based on the eastern front, although if u watch all the war films about you never think there was a war fought there,The western front was just a side show to the real war in the east
Very hard to watch this with the grief of the family
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-attack-lee-rigby-family-grief
The same thing happens every day in Afghanistan to nameless families.
Who benefits ?
Quote from: FL/MAYO on May 24, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Couldn't agree more. What surprised me however was the number of people who qualified their condolences with a "you had it coming" type comment
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 10:13:32 PM
Quote from: FL/MAYO on May 24, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Couldn't agree more. What surprised me however was the number of people who qualified their condolences with a "you had it coming" type comment
I didn't get that response thankfully.
Quote from: hardstation on May 25, 2013, 12:03:29 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 10:13:32 PM
Quote from: FL/MAYO on May 24, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Couldn't agree more. What surprised me however was the number of people who qualified their condolences with a "you had it coming" type comment
So, people in Ireland were very sympathetic towards those who lost their lives and their loved ones but at the same time recognised the reasons why such an attack took place?
Fair enough from the Irish IMO.
irish people did take exception to cromwell when he started beheading them and impaling them. which is good shows they have feelings like other nationalities
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
I presume Whitey is a WUM. ???
If not he's a serious thicko :-[
Actually Rossfan I am very well informed and am dead serious about what I said.
You didn't repudiate what I said-all you could do is hurl a few insults
Read the link about the Marathon bomber on welfare, staying at home while his wife was out working 80 hours a week.
His younger brother was flunking out of most of his classes at UMASS while being subsidized by the taxpayer.
http://abcnews.go.com/news/t/blogEntry?id=19030814
The reason everyone in Ireland said the yanks asked for "9/11" - should be 11/9 by the way ;)- due to their non critical support for the rogue Israeli State is because it's true.
Nothing to do with some Dagestani immigrants to the US living on welfare.
We have 400,000 unemployed in the 26 Cos and many thousands more in the North not to mention the 300,000 young people who left - Are they all just a bunch of layabouts?
Grand way of avoiding the real causes of "terrorism" - "ah they're all layabouts"
Ignore the disgusting US/Brit and other less enthusiastic Western support for Israel, the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan, the countless thousands dead in Iraq due to the US/Brit illegal immoral invasion of that Country, the selective support for rebel movements ( in Syria/Libya) while conttinuing to support despotic Islamist regimes ( Bahrain, Saudi) etc etc.
Much easier to home in on one event (Boston) and declare that all opposed to US/Brit latter day Crusades are just layabouts.
Now fcuk off back the land of B movies where the goodies wear the white hats and the baddies wear the black hats and leave us adults to our discussion.
By the way it's SUBSIDISED ;)
I thought up of a good one this afternoon.....whey don't we call the Ballagh Rossies the Ballastinians.
They're oppressed, their land was stolen, their young are brainwashed, they're forced to bow down to a superior power, their border crossings are restricted, history has abandoned them etc.
Quote from: lawnseed on May 25, 2013, 12:14:15 AM
Quote from: hardstation on May 25, 2013, 12:03:29 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 10:13:32 PM
Quote from: FL/MAYO on May 24, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Couldn't agree more. What surprised me however was the number of people who qualified their condolences with a "you had it coming" type comment
So, people in Ireland were very sympathetic towards those who lost their lives and their loved ones but at the same time recognised the reasons why such an attack took place?
Fair enough from the Irish IMO.
irish people did take exception to cromwell when he started beheading them and impaling them. which is good shows they have feelings like other nationalities
They took the famine very badly as well.
Quote from: lawnseed on May 25, 2013, 12:14:15 AM
Quote from: hardstation on May 25, 2013, 12:03:29 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 10:13:32 PM
Quote from: FL/MAYO on May 24, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Couldn't agree more. What surprised me however was the number of people who qualified their condolences with a "you had it coming" type comment
So, people in Ireland were very sympathetic towards those who lost their lives and their loved ones but at the same time recognised the reasons why such an attack took place?
Fair enough from the Irish IMO.
irish people did take exception to cromwell when he started beheading them and impaling them. which is good shows they have feelings like other nationalities
Watched a programme on the other Cromwell last night, Thomas, Henry VIII's 'enforcer'. Interesting stuff. Touched upon tortures carried out by the State, people being burned at the stake or hung drawn and quartered because of their religious beliefs, monasteries being destroyed, etc. Oddly enough, you don't hear many English people talking about this, or referring to it as if it still had some relevance to their lives. Only in Ireland do you hear people referencing events that happened 400-500 years ago as if they still counted for something.
Wonder what "terrorism" charges this guy is being held on?? Has he actually done anything? Or are we back in the seventies???
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0525/452535-man-held-on-terrorism-charges-after-bbc-interview/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0525/452535-man-held-on-terrorism-charges-after-bbc-interview/)
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 25, 2013, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on May 25, 2013, 12:14:15 AM
Quote from: hardstation on May 25, 2013, 12:03:29 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 10:13:32 PM
Quote from: FL/MAYO on May 24, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Couldn't agree more. What surprised me however was the number of people who qualified their condolences with a "you had it coming" type comment
So, people in Ireland were very sympathetic towards those who lost their lives and their loved ones but at the same time recognised the reasons why such an attack took place?
Fair enough from the Irish IMO.
irish people did take exception to cromwell when he started beheading them and impaling them. which is good shows they have feelings like other nationalities
Watched a programme on the other Cromwell last night, Thomas, Henry VIII's 'enforcer'. Interesting stuff. Touched upon tortures carried out by the State, people being burned at the stake or hung drawn and quartered because of their religious beliefs, monasteries being destroyed, etc. Oddly enough, you don't hear many English people talking about this, or referring to it as if it still had some relevance to their lives. Only in Ireland do you hear people referencing events that happened 400-500 years ago as if they still counted for something.
Yeah Myles. Nobody in England ever heard of Guy Fawkes. And those catholic kings were a great improvement.
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 25, 2013, 11:03:11 AM
Wonder what "terrorism" charges this guy is being held on?? Has he actually done anything? Or are we back in the seventies???
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0525/452535-man-held-on-terrorism-charges-after-bbc-interview/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0525/452535-man-held-on-terrorism-charges-after-bbc-interview/)
I'd say the authorities have very few leads.
The friend alleged one of the killers was tortured in Kenya
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/25/woolwich-suspect-kenya-torture
Terrorism in my eyes is an attack against civilians, state symbols or buildings.
This attack is just the result of a media hyped war in the middle east.
withdraw the troops
http://www.russellbrand.tv/2013/05/woolwich/
This is a good article by russell Brand that is well worth reading.
Woolwich
May 25th, 2013
The news cycle moves so quickly now that often we learn of an event through other people's reaction to it. So it was when I arrived in Los Angeles to find my twitter feed contorted with posts of fear and confusion.
I caught up with the sad malice in Woolwich and felt compelled to tweet in casual defense of the Muslim community who were being haphazardly condemned by a few people on my time line. Perhaps a bit glibly (but what isn't glib in 140 characters) I put "That bloke is a nut. A nut who happens to be Muslim. Blaming Muslims for this is like blaming Hitler's moustache for the Holocaust".
As an analogy it is imperfect but I was frightened by how negative and incendiary the mood felt and I rushed. I'm not proposing we sit around trying to summons up cute analogies when Lee Rigby has lost his life in horrific circumstances I simply feel that it is important that our reaction is measured. Something about the arbitrary brutality, the humdrum high-street setting, the cool rhetoric of the blood stained murderer evoke a powerful and inherently irrational response. When I first heard the word "beheading" I felt the atavistic grumble that we all feel. This is inhumane, taboo, not a result of passion but of malice, ritualistic. "If this is happening to guiltless men on our streets it could happen to me" I thought.
Then I watched the mobile phone clip. In spite of his dispassionate intoning the subject is not rational, of course he's not rational, he's just murdered a stranger in the street, he says, because of a book.
In my view that man is severely mentally ill and has found a convenient conduit for his insanity, in this case the Quran. In the case of another mentally ill and desperate man, Mark Chapman, it was A Catcher In The Rye. This was the nominated text for his rationalisation of the murder of John Lennon. I've read that book and I've read some of the Quran and nothing in either of them has compelled me to do violence. Perhaps this is because I lack the other necessary ingredients for extreme anti social behaviour; mental illness and isolation; either economic, social or both.
After my Hitler tweet I got involved in a bit of back and forth with a few people who said stuff like "the murderer said himself he did it for Islam". Although I wouldn't dismiss what he's saying entirely I think he forfeited the right to have his views received unthinkingly when he murdered a stranger in the street. Someone else regarding my tweet said "Hitler's moustache didn't invent an ideology that sanctions murder". That is thankfully true but Islam when practiced by normal people is not an advocacy for violence. "People all over the world are killing in the name of Islam" someone added. This is the most tricky bit to understand.
What I think is that all over our country, all over our planet there are huge numbers of people who feel alienated and sometimes victimised by the privileged and the powerful, whether that's rich people, powerful corporations or occupying nations. They feel that their interests are not being represented and, in many cases, know that their friends and families are being murdered by foreign soldiers. I suppose people like that may look to their indigenous theology for validation and to sanctify their, to some degree understandable, feelings of rage.
Comparable, I suppose to the way that homophobes feel a prejudicial pang in their tummies then look to the bible to see if there's anything in there to justify it. There is, a piddling little bit in Leviticus. The main narrative thrust of The Bible though, like most spiritual texts, including the Quran is; be nice to each other because we're all the same.
When some football fans smash up shops and beat each other up that isn't because of football or football clubs. It's because loads of white, working class men have been culturally neglected and their powerful tribal instincts end up getting sloshed about in riotous lager carnivals. I love football, I love West Ham, I've never been involved in football violence because I don't feel that it's my only access to social power. Also I'm not that hard and I'm worried I'd get my head kicked in down the New Den.
What the English Defence League and other angry, confused people are doing and advocating now, violence against mosques, Muslims, proliferation of hateful rhetoric is exactly what that poor, sick, murderous man, blood soaked on a peaceful street, was hoping for in his desperate, muddled mind.
The extremists on both sides have a shared agenda; cause division, distrust, anger and violence. Both sides have the same intention. We cannot allow them to distort our perception.
The establishment too is relatively happy when different groups of desperate people point the finger at each other because it prevents blame being correctly directed at them. Whenever we are looking for the solution to a problem we must identify who has power. By power I mean influence and money. The answer is not for us to move further from one another, crouched in opposing fortresses constructed from vindictive words. We need now to move closer to one another, to understand one another. If we can take anything heartening from this dreadful attack it is of course the actions of the three women, it's always women, that boldly guarded Lee Rigby's body as he lay needlessly murdered. These women looked beyond the fear and chaos and desperation and attuned instead to a higher code. One of virtue, integrity and strength.
To truly demonstrate defiance in the face of this sad violence, we must be loving and compassionate to one another. Let's look beyond our superficial and fleeting differences. The murderers want angry patriots to desecrate mosques and perpetuate violence. How futile their actions seem if we instead leave flowers at each other's places of worship. Let's reach out in the spirit of love and humanity and connect to one another, perhaps we will then see what is really behind this conflict, this division, this hatred and make that our focus.
The more of Russell I read, the more I like the man. Great post dixie.
Quote from: ziggysego on May 25, 2013, 11:12:04 PM
The more of Russell I read, the more I like the man. Great post dixie.
Thanks Ziggy. He sure has a knack of hitting the nail on the head, and like yourself,
the more I read from him the more I like him.
The following piece he put together when Thatcher died was probably the best I read on her death.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher
Is Brand actually writing this stuff though, I mean his stuff is excellent and it's hard to actually square it with his public image and previous appearences.
May 9, 2013 Statement from the Richard Family
Medical Update
Last evening, just 23 days after the bombing attack on Boston, our seven year old daughter Jane underwent her eleventh surgery. While she has more trips to the O.R. ahead of her, last night's operation marked an important milestone, as doctors were finally able to close the wound created when the bomb took her left leg below the knee. Part of the procedure involved preparing Jane's injured leg to eventually be fitted for a prosthesis.
By closing the wound, the incredible medical team at Boston Children's Hospital laid the groundwork for Jane to take an important step forward on the long and difficult road ahead of her. One of the things we have learned through all of this is to not get too high or too low. We take today's development as positive news and look ahead with guarded optimism. If things go well, Jane could be ready to transition to the rehabilitation stage of her recovery in the next few weeks.
Getting to this point has not been easy for Jane. In addition to all of the surgeries, she has also had to fight off infections and other complications. After not being able to communicate with Jane for the first two weeks, she woke up with difficult questions that needed to be answered. There are not words to describe how hard sharing this heartbreaking news was on all of us.
As for the rest of the family, Bill and Denise were discharged from Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center a week after they were admitted. While no sight has returned to Denise's injured eye, her doctors have been pleased with how she is healing from her surgeries. Bill is healing from the shrapnel wounds and burns to his legs, and we remain hopeful there will be improvement over time from the hearing loss he suffered. It will be several months before we know what, if any improvement Denise or Bill will experience. Henry is back at school, which gives him a needed sense of routine and normalcy. We will continue to stay together in the Longwood Medical Area until Jane is discharged.
Our focus as a family remains on healing from our injuries, both physical and emotional.
Thank You to the Community
We would like to take this time to also acknowledge the strength we draw from the community. The outpouring of support from friends, family and total strangers has been incredible, and it is uplifting to our family in this most painful and difficult time. Well-wishes reach us, and they help more than anyone can know.
From the moment of the attack, all of us have been in the hands of well-trained people who are incredibly good at what they do. We thank the courageous first-responders and Samaritans who stabilized and comforted us on the scene as well as the medical staff at the hospitals for quick action and life-saving care. We particularly want to thank the people who quickly got to Jane and addressed her injury in the street because they saved her life. We also salute those who stood guard over Martin's body so he was not alone. Those officers will never know how comforting that was in our very darkest hour. The doctors, nurses, psychologists, social workers, technicians, orderlies, volunteers and administrators at both Boston Children's Hospital and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center have been incredible. We will recover because of these dedicated and talented people.
People near and far have made loving gestures and poignant remembrances. We are aware of tributes and vigils across the area and around the world. Martin was a big sports fan and what has taken place across the sports world – from our local teams to our arch rivals, by teams and by individual players – reminds us why. Martin was "Boston Strong," and now we must all be for him and for all of the victims of this senseless attack as well as their loved ones who are going through a hell we wish we never had to know.
Many of you feel an incredible need to do more, which is understandable and gracious. We will need help, as we cannot get through this tragedy on our own. We know how difficult it is to stand idle when something terrible happens, so we thank you for respecting our privacy and giving us space to not only recuperate and rest, but also to ensure the one thing the attack does not break is our bond as a family.
As hard as it is for us to do so, we ask for your continued patience as we work through something for which there is no roadmap, and there are no instructions.
We look forward to sharing another update when Jane leaves Children's Hospital for rehab in the coming weeks.
Seems a French soldier has been stabbed in the neck in Paris, it's still unclear if it has any connection to events in London.
Quote from: give her dixie on May 25, 2013, 11:59:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on May 25, 2013, 11:12:04 PM
The more of Russell I read, the more I like the man. Great post dixie.
Thanks Ziggy. He sure has a knack of hitting the nail on the head, and like yourself,
the more I read from him the more I like him.
The following piece he put together when Thatcher died was probably the best I read on her death.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher
Everybody hates Thatcher. Its easy to hate thatcher. However, what are your thoughts on the attack in Woolwich Arsenal ?
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 26, 2013, 01:43:47 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 25, 2013, 11:59:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on May 25, 2013, 11:12:04 PM
The more of Russell I read, the more I like the man. Great post dixie.
Thanks Ziggy. He sure has a knack of hitting the nail on the head, and like yourself,
the more I read from him the more I like him.
The following piece he put together when Thatcher died was probably the best I read on her death.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher
Everybody hates Thatcher. Its easy to hate thatcher. However, what are your thoughts on the attack in Woolwich Arsenal ?
Horrific Mike
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 01:57:19 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 26, 2013, 01:43:47 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 25, 2013, 11:59:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on May 25, 2013, 11:12:04 PM
The more of Russell I read, the more I like the man. Great post dixie.
Thanks Ziggy. He sure has a knack of hitting the nail on the head, and like yourself,
the more I read from him the more I like him.
The following piece he put together when Thatcher died was probably the best I read on her death.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher
Everybody hates Thatcher. Its easy to hate thatcher. However, what are your thoughts on the attack in Woolwich Arsenal ?
Horrific Mike
And so is this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=V6HS6jyxoFE
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
Quote from: seafoid on May 25, 2013, 11:18:39 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 25, 2013, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on May 25, 2013, 12:14:15 AM
Quote from: hardstation on May 25, 2013, 12:03:29 AM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 10:13:32 PM
Quote from: FL/MAYO on May 24, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I was in Ireland right after September 11 as well, I found people to be very sympathetic to the U.S. Unfortunately the U.S government squandered the good will away pretty quickly within the next couple of years.
Couldn't agree more. What surprised me however was the number of people who qualified their condolences with a "you had it coming" type comment
So, people in Ireland were very sympathetic towards those who lost their lives and their loved ones but at the same time recognised the reasons why such an attack took place?
Fair enough from the Irish IMO.
irish people did take exception to cromwell when he started beheading them and impaling them. which is good shows they have feelings like other nationalities
Watched a programme on the other Cromwell last night, Thomas, Henry VIII's 'enforcer'. Interesting stuff. Touched upon tortures carried out by the State, people being burned at the stake or hung drawn and quartered because of their religious beliefs, monasteries being destroyed, etc. Oddly enough, you don't hear many English people talking about this, or referring to it as if it still had some relevance to their lives. Only in Ireland do you hear people referencing events that happened 400-500 years ago as if they still counted for something.
Yeah Myles. Nobody in England ever heard of Guy Fawkes. And those catholic kings were a great improvement.
Guy Fawkes night in England is a celebration, a night for fireworks and bonfires and parties. The historical significance of the event has long ago been forgotten by the people organising their firework displays. Compare it with our own bonfire night on the 11th July and you'll see the difference. Both are celebrating victories over Catholicism in one shape or form, but while one has lost all its sectarian connotations, the other is still very much a sectarian festival. Noone in England talks about that bastard Guy Fawkes. People here would still talk about Oliver Cromwell in those terms.
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
Meh, that's debatable.
Despite all of that anytime I watch BBC/ ITV news it's some flowing eulogy to zapper Joe Soap who heroically died protecting 3 of his friends in a firefight against insurgents and is now a honoured war hero. No-one seems to be asking the entirely logical question; what the f**k is a kid from Sheffield doing sitting in a foxhole in Kabul province?
When Vietnam went to the wall and the US had to pull out they were rightly condemned by all asunder, why now does it have to be justified by glorifying the dead rather than questioning just what the f**k they are dying for?
To me that's propoganda.
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
So where are the EDL lads being brainwashed? Church on Sunday? Half-time at Milwall games?
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
Perhaps so. Who taught these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyIBsDeUatg) guys to hate? Or these (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/1212894)?
Disclaimer: This response is not to be taken by either pro-US or anti-US propagandists as anti-US propaganda. It's simply an attempted reminder that atrocities perpetrated by both sides are to be condemned and their motivations examined.
Quote from: trileacman on May 26, 2013, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
So where are the EDL lads being brainwashed? Church on Sunday? Half-time at Milwall games?
Not to mention some of those lovely "Loyaist/Orange" types in the 6 Cos.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 26, 2013, 06:52:30 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 26, 2013, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
So where are the EDL lads being brainwashed? Church on Sunday? Half-time at Milwall games?
Not to mention some of those lovely "Loyaist/Orange" types in the 6 Cos.
Not hard to explain the origin of those.
Big Ian (amongst others) and his Never/Never legacy.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 26, 2013, 06:52:30 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 26, 2013, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
So where are the EDL lads being brainwashed? Church on Sunday? Half-time at Milwall games?
Not to mention some of those lovely "Loyaist/Orange" types in the 6 Cos.
Very true.
Like a lot of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic were.
Quote from: trileacman on May 26, 2013, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
So where are the EDL lads being brainwashed? Church on Sunday? Half-time at Milwall games?
Bit of a stretch (to put it mildly) to compare the EDL to Jihadists who cut people's heads off, carry out suicide bombings and attempt to blow airlines out of the sky with bombs in their shoes.
Maybe some of these people should return to their 3rd world hell holes and attempt to assert their right to free speech under Sharia Law!
When the English were being bombed by a foreign army ( WW 2 by Germany) they weren't too pushed about the methods they used to fight back.
Time for the Brits and other Western countries to stop supporting the Yanks' Oil "Crusades".
Quote from: Hardy on May 26, 2013, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: dillinger on May 26, 2013, 07:03:41 AM
To me Brand just wrote a load of wordy shite.
He fails to recognize that too many Muslims are being brain washed in the UK and most is happening in the Mosques.
And you have facts that back up your statement?
So where else are they being brain washed then? Maybe you know.
Hating, dosen't come naturally i believe. They are being taught to hate.
Perhaps so. Who taught these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyIBsDeUatg) guys to hate? Or these (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/1212894)?
Disclaimer: This response is not to be taken by either pro-US or anti-US propagandists as anti-US propaganda. It's simply an attempted reminder that atrocities perpetrated by both sides are to be condemned and their motivations examined.
I hate the simplistic and incorrect terms used to try and explain away how this happens and will continue to happen. The main stream media are happy to run with the 'terrorist' angle as its easy and doesn't require much thought and very seldom questioned by anyone else for fear of condoning the actions which isn't the point but easily misconstrued as such.
Terms such as 'monkey religion', 'towel heads', 'sand jockeys' or whatever are terms used to class a race as somehow less human than us, much akin to the Reverend Ian's eulogies against Catholics.
If they're an underclass then their life is worth less than ours type mentality, no better than a dog then its easier to not give a shit about the 10's and 100's of thousands killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya after the tanks and jet fighters and TV cameras have left the stage.
If there was ever a breeding ground for radicals to be brain washed then its from there, not what happens in a Mosque in London or wherever.
The current actions being carried out in the name of freedom and democracy in the middle east are coming home to roost and unless a more holistic approach is taken then people in the western world better get used to the types of activities in Boston and Woolwich I'm afraid.
I'm not condoning any of these actions, just trying to understand why its happening.
Meanwhile Irish times report that the UK wants to arm the Syrian opposition and the FT says al Qaeda is active in the Syrian opposition.
It's not rocket science.
Good post johnneycool.
The problem in trying to understand these actions begins when you look at these incidents in isolation to the wests relationship with the middle east from after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the end of colonialism. There are so many factors to be considered. You have the foundation of Israel which has become a highly militarised state. It now has significant strategic influence for the USA in the region because of this. The scramble for oil by European counties and America. The proxy wars of the Cold War era. The reason so many dictators were propped up was simply that they chose Capitalism over the Soviet Union. Western eyes were so fixed on curtailing Moscow that so long as they were on your side it didn't matter so much how they acted towards their people. Obviously secular dictators who were happy to let the oil flow in the right direction were favoured. In order to create stability in the region they also needed to be armed. Hence Saddam getting his weapons to murder the Kurds.
In this period you also had the flourishing of religious fundamentalism. I think people need to look at the life of Sayyid Qutb, a man who came to the USA in the 1940's from Egypt looking for ideas to help modernise his home country. But American materialism frightened him. He saw a people trapped by their obsession with wealth and attainment. Their notion of freedom to him was a paradox. He returned home to an Egyptian state run by Abdel Nasser who he saw as having the same vacuous morals as in the USA. SO he started a group called the Muslim Brotherhood who wanted to build a modern state but with strict religious values at its core. They were soon imprisoned and tortured. In prison he became radicalised and his writings along with that of his accomplices lead us down the sorry path to the attacks on September 11th 2001 in New York.
Today's western society is as we know heavily dependent on middle eastern oil. For the basic fuel needs but also the oil markets themselves to finance its debts. To argue against western multinational companies owning oil in the ME or northern Africa from a moral stand point puts capitalism in the dock. The fact of a company owning foreign assets itself isn't wrong or immoral. That is so long as it acquired them through moral and fair means. With this in mind calling for the absolute withdrawal of western influences on the ME before the west has secured its energy needs is a non-runner as it would cause the collapse of Western (and other large emerging) economies.
So while the NIMBY's moan about wind turbines and other forms of energy that offer greater self reliance, western governments will to continue to cause turmoil in other parts of the world to keep the show on the road. So where does that leave us. I think European countries need to build greater energy independence and we need a more responsible form of capitalism, that is willing to cut a fairer deal. Western society should re-examine its material needs and how it sources them, more self reliance and less disposable goods would be a start. The most common thing found in landfill is food and childrens toys. Considering the almost infinite nature of a child's imagination is it necessary to buy them all these plastic trinkets.
What I think the middle east states need is to be rid of extremism, democratise, and start standing up for itself. However there is the underlying sectarian nature that might delay any stability. The state boundaries weren't drawn with Sunni's or Shias in mind but colonial interests. Perhaps the national boundaries might get redrawn in the blood of men, as all national boundaries tend to do, before any peace is reached.
Another very good post there Juice.
Quote from: thejuice on May 27, 2013, 11:17:58 AM
The problem in trying to understand these actions begins when you look at these incidents in isolation to the wests relationship with the middle east from after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the end of colonialism. There are so many factors to be considered. You have the foundation of Israel which has become a highly militarised state. It now has significant strategic influence for the USA in the region because of this. The scramble for oil by European counties and America. The proxy wars of the Cold War era. The reason so many dictators were propped up was simply that they chose Capitalism over the Soviet Union. Western eyes were so fixed on curtailing Moscow that so long as they were on your side it didn't matter so much how they acted towards their people. Obviously secular dictators who were happy to let the oil flow in the right direction were favoured. In order to create stability in the region they also needed to be armed. Hence Saddam getting his weapons to murder the Kurds.
In this period you also had the flourishing of religious fundamentalism. I think people need to look at the life of Sayyid Qutb, a man who came to the USA in the 1940's from Egypt looking for ideas to help modernise his home country. But American materialism frightened him. He saw a people trapped by their obsession with wealth and attainment. Their notion of freedom to him was a paradox. He returned home to an Egyptian state run by Abdel Nasser who he saw as having the same vacuous morals as in the USA. SO he started a group called the Muslim Brotherhood who wanted to build a modern state but with strict religious values at its core. They were soon imprisoned and tortured. In prison he became radicalised and his writings along with that of his accomplices lead us down the sorry path to the attacks on September 11th 2001 in New York.
Today's western society is as we know heavily dependent on middle eastern oil. For the basic fuel needs but also the oil markets themselves to finance its debts. To argue against western multinational companies owning oil in the ME or northern Africa from a moral stand point puts capitalism in the dock. The fact of a company owning foreign assets itself isn't wrong or immoral. That is so long as it acquired them through moral and fair means. With this in mind calling for the absolute withdrawal of western influences on the ME before the west has secured its energy needs is a non-runner as it would cause the collapse of Western (and other large emerging) economies.
So while the NIMBY's moan about wind turbines and other forms of energy that offer greater self reliance, western governments will to continue to cause turmoil in other parts of the world to keep the show on the road. So where does that leave us. I think European countries need to build greater energy independence and we need a more responsible form of capitalism, that is willing to cut a fairer deal. Western society should re-examine its material needs and how it sources them, more self reliance and less disposable goods would be a start. The most common thing found in landfill is food and childrens toys. Considering the almost infinite nature of a child's imagination is it necessary to buy them all these plastic trinkets.
What I think the middle east states need is to be rid of extremism, democratise, and start standing up for itself. However there is the underlying sectarian nature that might delay any stability. The state boundaries weren't drawn with Sunni's or Shias in mind but colonial interests. Perhaps the national boundaries might get redrawn in the blood of men, as all national boundaries tend to do, before any peace is reached.
Very good stuff Juice but I think the post war period that coincided with Keynesianism in the West was a quite progressive time for the Middle East, when Israel wasn't at war at least.
Egypt was a very optimistic country in the 50s and 60s. The quality of the music that was coming out of Cairo then has not been matched since Mubarak took over. There was genuine optimism that the country would share in modernity and hardline conservatives were sidelined. Same thing in Iran. The veil was dropped, women took a stronger part in things and people had the feeling things were different.
http://www.serpentine.org/yasmin/SohairZuki.html
The 1973 war changed everything. It proved the West would do everything to back up Israel. It led to a depression in the West that collapsed Keynesianism.
The chaos broke the economies of many of the countries in the Middle East, it strengthened the desert sheiks of the gulf, probably led to the 1979 revolution in Iran and ultimately led to a reactionary fightback in the US led by Reagan , spawned neoliberalism and the next 40 years showed the people of the region they were not going to share in prosperity. The Iraq war was just confirmation.
I think Syria, Egypt etc are a bit like Ireland in the 17 and 1800s. Small coterie of very rich, system of property enforced by doses of violence, large population growth, mass pauperism, no chance of things improving, religious conservatism etc.
Good points there Seafoid, some I know little about to comment on.
QuoteEgypt was a very optimistic country in the 50s and 60s. The quality of the music that was coming out of Cairo then has not been matched since Mubarak took over. There was genuine optimism that the country would share in modernity and hardline conservatives were sidelined. Same thing in Iran. The veil was dropped, women took a stronger part in things and people had the feeling things were different.
Would you agree with my theory that for a lot of people this looked like a good thing, which I think it was.
But for Qutb and his ilk it was his country descending into decadence. They were sidelined but also imprisoned and tortured, or so goes the claim. From this experience he proclaimed that underneath the veneer of modernity and freedom was an animalistic brutality. Hence the spawning of extremism which took firm root within the fertile soil of economic collapse. Funnily enough, his own sides animalistic brutality he could justify.
Quote from: thejuice on May 27, 2013, 12:25:37 PM
Good points there Seafoid, some I know little about to comment on.
QuoteEgypt was a very optimistic country in the 50s and 60s. The quality of the music that was coming out of Cairo then has not been matched since Mubarak took over. There was genuine optimism that the country would share in modernity and hardline conservatives were sidelined. Same thing in Iran. The veil was dropped, women took a stronger part in things and people had the feeling things were different.
Would you agree with my theory that for a lot of people this looked like a good thing, which I think it was.
But for Qutb and his ilk it was his country descending into decadence. They were sidelined but also imprisoned and tortured, or so goes the claim. From this experience he proclaimed that underneath the veneer of modernity and freedom was an animalistic brutality. Hence the spawning of extremism which took firm root within the fertile soil of economic collapse. Funnily enough, his own sides animalistic brutality he could justify.
Qutb would have been like a more extreme version of William Binchy.
When it was clear that Egypt was never going to make it he could say "look, I was right".
And with the population growing and the economy not there was less to go around and more chaos.
and chaos is always good for fundamentalists.
In theory could the U.S survive on their own untapped oil reserves?? I know we often hear about the vast resources in Alaska. Also isnt Canada now the 2nd biggest supplier of oil in the world behind Saudi? Canada better watch out. The Yanks will be invading yet 8)
Quote from: Walter Cronc on May 27, 2013, 12:50:13 PM
In theory could the U.S survive on their own untapped oil reserves?? I know we often hear about the vast resources in Alaska. Also isnt Canada now the 2nd biggest supplier of oil in the world behind Saudi? Canada better watch out. The Yanks will be invading yet 8)
That isn't how it works.
This is: http://www.debtclock.ca (http://www.debtclock.ca)
Quote from: muppet on May 27, 2013, 12:54:37 PM
That isn't how it works.
This is: http://www.debtclock.ca (http://www.debtclock.ca)
(http://www.financialsensearchive.com/fsu/editorials/coffin/2010/images/0611_clip_image004.jpg)
Ours looked like that once.
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 08:52:47 PM
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 07:03:16 PM
Quote from: stew on May 24, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: red hander on May 24, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
The responses here are just so predictable. The big bad Brits and Yanks invading other countries only have themselves to blame, blah, blah, blah. You guys are a frickin joke
Botton line is these animals are looking for a reason to be offended.
Anyone remember the affront that precipitated the 9/11 attacks-US Military presence in Saudi Arabia.
How convenient is it for them to forget that the US were only invited in by the Saudis who were afraid Sadam was going to Annex them after he was done in Kuwait.
The US faced down the Nazis, it faced down the Japs, it faced down Communism and it sure as hell isn't going to be dictated to by a monkey religion.
Yeah, those lovely, Saudis, eh? And who was it that supported Saddam when he invaded the sovereign territory of his neighbour Iran, breaking international law? The Yanks only turned against Saddam cos he threatened 'their' oil in the Middle East, they didn't give a shit about the evil he did before the first Gulf War.
As for the US facing down the Nazis, I think you'll find that was the Red Army ... 9 out of 10 German soldiers killed in WWII died at the hands of the Soviets, who suffered the most casualties, military and civilian, of any combatant. Yeah, the US really faced down the Viet Cong and the Cubans too, didn't it? It's not going to be dictated to by a bunch of peasants armed only with a Kalashnikov, bag of rice and a love of their country, or a bearded geurrilla who had the balls to free his people from a murderous US-backed military junta up to its neck with the Mafia
Are you that thick that you can't face up to the fact that only the yanks entered the war the Nazi's would have won the war? The yanks were the difference makers in WW2.
Your beloved Ruskies were a hateful regime as well, they suppressed the rights of their own people and were despicable but hey, hold the commies up as bastions of light if you will, the fact is the yanks are the most important economic dynasty of the last 100 years, end of!
I must be thick - even though I do know how apostrophes work - cos I'm going to reply to you ... the Nazis would not have won the war but for the US. The US didn't enter the war until December 1941, more than 2 years after it began. The tide had already begun to turn in Europe. By the time the US was making a significant contribution, namely the Eighth Air Force's daylight bombing campaign on Germany, it was 1943. We'd already had the most significant battle of WWII by that stage at Stalingrad, and we'd also had El Alamein.
Maybe you'll point out where I held the 'commies up as bastions of light' in my post, or mentioned 'important economic dynasties'. Your guff is usually rambling bullshit at the best of times, but you really shouldn't post while drinking (meths by the look of it)
I never did drugs in my life kid!
The yanks were in the war prior to December 1941, they were sending everything but manpower to the fighting forces opposing the Nazis and but for them entering the war the brits were fooked.
Hitler should never have went near Russia, he made the same mistake as Napoleon and his countrymen died horribly in their tens of thousands, the Russians won because Hitler was mental enough to have his men fight in winter without the necessary clothing and equipment, tens of thousands froze to death and the Russians would have fell but for mother nature.
Ever been to America homie?
Seven or eight times ... I'm going back in under a fortnight for Republc V Spain at Yankee Stadium and then a few days in Chicago. I love visiting America. But I don't get the relevance of your question ???
Red hander
That fella who spoke to the cameras after the attack was a red hander too.
Quote from: seafoid on May 27, 2013, 05:07:37 PM
Red hander
That fella who spoke to the cameras after the attack was a red hander too.
No relation, thank God (or should that be Allah?)
Rangers, EDL, BNP, Orange Order, DUP, UKIP, Milwall, Loyalist types getting all worked up over nothing.
They seem to think it is called Achill Islam, rather than Achill Island.
http://www.newstalk.ie/reader/47.302.347/9717/0/ (http://www.newstalk.ie/reader/47.302.347/9717/0/)
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 27, 2013, 07:08:56 PM
Rangers, EDL, BNP, Orange Order, DUP, UKIP, Milwall, Loyalist types getting all worked up over nothing.
They seem to think it is called Achill Islam, rather than Achill Island.
http://www.newstalk.ie/reader/47.302.347/9717/0/ (http://www.newstalk.ie/reader/47.302.347/9717/0/)
This is a great line:
"Take ignorance, energise with anger. Remove care for a moment's thought and add the internet."Although he missed illiteracy, imagine misreading 'Achill Island' as '<something> Islam'.
LOL...that would explain my near decapitation, from a clothesline tackle, while playing against Achill in a Kelly Cup game about 20 years ago.
(FYI the Kelly Cup is a very glamorous Junior B contest held in the West Mayo Division during the months of February and March)
http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/iraq/2500-john-pilger-why-the-iniquity-of-tony-blairs-iraq-crimes-are-on-a-par-with-the-woolwich-killing
John Pilger: why iniquity of Tony Blair's Iraq crimes is on a par with Woolwich killing
The dust in Iraq rolls down the long roads that are the desert's fingers. It gets in your eyes and nose and throat; it swirls in markets and school playgrounds, consuming children kicking a ball; and it carries, according to Dr Jawad Al-Ali, "the seeds of our death".
An internationally respected cancer specialist at the Sadr teaching hospital in Basra, Dr Ali told me that in 1999, and today his warning is irrefutable.
"Before the Gulf war," he said, "we had two or three cancer patients a month. Now we have 30 to 35 dying every month. Our studies indicate that 40 to 48% of the population in this area will get cancer: in five years' time to begin with, then long after.
That's almost half the population. Most of my own family have it, and we have no history of the disease. It is like Chernobyl here; the genetic effects are new to us; the mushrooms grow huge; even the grapes in my garden have mutated and can't be eaten."
Along the corridor, Dr Ginan Ghalib Hassen, a paediatrician, kept a photo album of the children she was trying to save. Many had neuroblastoma. "Before the war, we saw only one case of this unusual tumour in two years," she said. "Now we have many cases, mostly with no family history. I have studied what happened in Hiroshima. The sudden increase of such congenital malformations is the same."
Among the doctors I interviewed, there was little doubt that depleted uranium shells used by the Americans and British in the Gulf war were the cause. A US military physicist assigned to clean up the Gulf war battlefield across the border in Kuwait said, "Each round fired by an A-10 Warhog attack aircraft carried over 4,500 grams of solid uranium. Well over 300 tons of DU was used. It was a form of nuclear warfare."
Although the link with cancer is always difficult to prove absolutely, the Iraqi doctors argue that "the epidemic speaks for itself". The British oncologist Karol Sikora, chief of the World Health Organisation's cancer programme in the 1990s, wrote in the British Medical Journal: "Requested radiotherapy equipment, chemotherapy drugs and analgesics are consistently blocked by United States and British advisers [to the Iraq sanctions committee]." He told me, "We were specifically told [by the WHO] not to talk about the whole Iraq business. The WHO is not an organisation that likes to get involved in politics."
Recently, Hans von Sponeck, former assistant secretary general of the United Nations and senior UN humanitarian official in Iraq, wrote to me: "The US government sought to prevent WHO from surveying areas in southern Iraq where depleted uranium had been used and caused serious health and environmental dangers." A WHO report, the result of a landmark study conducted with the Iraqi ministry of health, has been "delayed". Covering 10,800 households, it contains "damning evidence", says a ministry official and, according to one of its researchers, remains "top secret". The report says birth defects have risen to a "crisis" right across Iraqi society where depleted uranium and other toxic heavy metals were used by the US and Britain. Fourteen years after he sounded the alarm, Dr Jawad Al-Ali reports "phenomenal" multiple cancers in entire families.
Iraq is no longer news. Last week, the killing of 57 Iraqis in one day was a non-event compared with the murder of a British soldier in London. Yet the two atrocities are connected. Their emblem might be a lavish new movie of F Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby. Two of the main characters, as Fitzgerald wrote, "smashed up things and creatures and retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness ... and let other people clean up the mess".
The "mess" left by George Bush and Tony Blair in Iraq is a sectarian war, the bombs of 7/7 and now a man waving a bloody meat cleaver in Woolwich. Bush has retreated back into his Mickey Mouse "presidential library and museum" and Tony Blair into his jackdaw travels and his money.
Their "mess" is a crime of epic proportions, wrote Von Sponeck, referring to the Iraqi ministry of social affairs' estimate of 4.5 million children who have lost one or both parents. "This means a horrific 14% of Iraq's population are orphans," he wrote. "An estimated one million families are headed by women, most of them widows". Domestic violence and child abuse are rightly urgent issues in Britain; in Iraq the catastrophe ignited by Britain has brought violence and abuse into millions of homes.
In her book Dispatches from the Dark Side, Gareth Peirce, Britain's greatest human rights lawyer, applies the rule of law to Blair, his propagandist Alastair Campbell and his colluding cabinet. For Blair, she wrote, "human beings presumed to hold [Islamist] views, were to be disabled by any means possible, and permanently ... in Blair's language a 'virus' to be 'eliminated' and requiring 'a myriad of interventions [sic] deep into the affairs of other nations.' The very concept of war was mutated to 'our values versus theirs'." And yet, says Peirce, "the threads of emails, internal government communiques, reveal no dissent".
For foreign secretary Jack Straw, sending innocent British citizens to Guantánamo was "the best way to meet our counter-terrorism objective".
These crimes, their iniquity on a par with Woolwich, await prosecution. But who will demand it? In the kabuki theatre of Westminster politics, the faraway violence of "our values" is of no interest. Do the rest of us also turn our backs?
Quote from: give her dixie on May 27, 2013, 09:24:08 PM
http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/iraq/2500-john-pilger-why-the-iniquity-of-tony-blairs-iraq-crimes-are-on-a-par-with-the-woolwich-killing
John Pilger: why iniquity of Tony Blair's Iraq crimes is on a par with Woolwich killing
The dust in Iraq rolls down the long roads that are the desert's fingers. It gets in your eyes and nose and throat; it swirls in markets and school playgrounds, consuming children kicking a ball; and it carries, according to Dr Jawad Al-Ali, "the seeds of our death".
An internationally respected cancer specialist at the Sadr teaching hospital in Basra, Dr Ali told me that in 1999, and today his warning is irrefutable.
"Before the Gulf war," he said, "we had two or three cancer patients a month. Now we have 30 to 35 dying every month. Our studies indicate that 40 to 48% of the population in this area will get cancer: in five years' time to begin with, then long after.
That's almost half the population. Most of my own family have it, and we have no history of the disease. It is like Chernobyl here; the genetic effects are new to us; the mushrooms grow huge; even the grapes in my garden have mutated and can't be eaten."
Along the corridor, Dr Ginan Ghalib Hassen, a paediatrician, kept a photo album of the children she was trying to save. Many had neuroblastoma. "Before the war, we saw only one case of this unusual tumour in two years," she said. "Now we have many cases, mostly with no family history. I have studied what happened in Hiroshima. The sudden increase of such congenital malformations is the same."
Among the doctors I interviewed, there was little doubt that depleted uranium shells used by the Americans and British in the Gulf war were the cause. A US military physicist assigned to clean up the Gulf war battlefield across the border in Kuwait said, "Each round fired by an A-10 Warhog attack aircraft carried over 4,500 grams of solid uranium. Well over 300 tons of DU was used. It was a form of nuclear warfare."
Although the link with cancer is always difficult to prove absolutely, the Iraqi doctors argue that "the epidemic speaks for itself". The British oncologist Karol Sikora, chief of the World Health Organisation's cancer programme in the 1990s, wrote in the British Medical Journal: "Requested radiotherapy equipment, chemotherapy drugs and analgesics are consistently blocked by United States and British advisers [to the Iraq sanctions committee]." He told me, "We were specifically told [by the WHO] not to talk about the whole Iraq business. The WHO is not an organisation that likes to get involved in politics."
Recently, Hans von Sponeck, former assistant secretary general of the United Nations and senior UN humanitarian official in Iraq, wrote to me: "The US government sought to prevent WHO from surveying areas in southern Iraq where depleted uranium had been used and caused serious health and environmental dangers." A WHO report, the result of a landmark study conducted with the Iraqi ministry of health, has been "delayed". Covering 10,800 households, it contains "damning evidence", says a ministry official and, according to one of its researchers, remains "top secret". The report says birth defects have risen to a "crisis" right across Iraqi society where depleted uranium and other toxic heavy metals were used by the US and Britain. Fourteen years after he sounded the alarm, Dr Jawad Al-Ali reports "phenomenal" multiple cancers in entire families.
Iraq is no longer news. Last week, the killing of 57 Iraqis in one day was a non-event compared with the murder of a British soldier in London. Yet the two atrocities are connected. Their emblem might be a lavish new movie of F Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby. Two of the main characters, as Fitzgerald wrote, "smashed up things and creatures and retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness ... and let other people clean up the mess".
The "mess" left by George Bush and Tony Blair in Iraq is a sectarian war, the bombs of 7/7 and now a man waving a bloody meat cleaver in Woolwich. Bush has retreated back into his Mickey Mouse "presidential library and museum" and Tony Blair into his jackdaw travels and his money.
Their "mess" is a crime of epic proportions, wrote Von Sponeck, referring to the Iraqi ministry of social affairs' estimate of 4.5 million children who have lost one or both parents. "This means a horrific 14% of Iraq's population are orphans," he wrote. "An estimated one million families are headed by women, most of them widows". Domestic violence and child abuse are rightly urgent issues in Britain; in Iraq the catastrophe ignited by Britain has brought violence and abuse into millions of homes.
In her book Dispatches from the Dark Side, Gareth Peirce, Britain's greatest human rights lawyer, applies the rule of law to Blair, his propagandist Alastair Campbell and his colluding cabinet. For Blair, she wrote, "human beings presumed to hold [Islamist] views, were to be disabled by any means possible, and permanently ... in Blair's language a 'virus' to be 'eliminated' and requiring 'a myriad of interventions [sic] deep into the affairs of other nations.' The very concept of war was mutated to 'our values versus theirs'." And yet, says Peirce, "the threads of emails, internal government communiques, reveal no dissent".
For foreign secretary Jack Straw, sending innocent British citizens to Guantánamo was "the best way to meet our counter-terrorism objective".
These crimes, their iniquity on a par with Woolwich, await prosecution. But who will demand it? In the kabuki theatre of Westminster politics, the faraway violence of "our values" is of no interest. Do the rest of us also turn our backs?
Iraq is on a par with the Khmer Rouge. "To destroy you is no loss, to preserve you is no gain".
Woolwich isn't.
Quote from: seafoid on May 24, 2013, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: thejuice on May 24, 2013, 01:18:52 AM
Allow me if you will to state my dire and depressing synopsis of what we saw yesterday and matters relating to it.
In recent years especially post 9/11 in multicultural England towns with large Muslim communities have seen the slow entrenching and segregation of cultural and religious groups. One in particular being Luton. This town by no coincidence has spawned both radical islamist groups and the EDL. Coupling multicultural society with post-colonialism and the wests insatiable need for oil it is inevitable that there would be conflict abroad and resentment at home.
One gets the sense that the decent into sectarian violence almost on a level with that of the troubles is not all that far away. The economic depression in Europe is starting to put a strain on community relations and given that loyalty to a state is usually low within immigrant communities and particularly those from very different cultural backgrounds and possibly coming from the poorer side of history, it should not surprise us to see rioting and other outbursts against states they may feel they owe nothing to. See Stockholm.
Only a few weeks ago a group of young muslim men were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Their target was an EDL march. While we may revile the EDL, they did not fall out of a tree and they do have the right to march and protest within certain limits. We can only imagine what the reprisals may have been for a successful attack on this march. You get the feeling that tit-for-tat violence may spiral out of control and who knows where that may lead.
Also recent events and challenges to traditions has brought thinkers on the right to start calling into question what is happening to European society. They have accused liberalism of having lead us into being unable to define ourselves and defend ourselves. Last week in what some thought was an act against gay marriage, Dominique Venner placed an envelope on the altar at Notre Dame cathedral in Paris. He then shot himself in the head in front of startled tourists. Venner was, as he wrote in his letter, for a common, greater good removing his own life, hoping younger men will be inspired to reverse Europe's decline and secure its destiny. Venner hoped, and we may yet see, that right wing opposition may take radical action in future to achieve this. Of course Brevik got there first.
We supposedly live in an age of tolerance. But tolerance is a dangerous word, for what does it really mean. That we do not love but merely put up with that which we'd rather not have in our midst. So now we lie with the strangest of bedfellows, I hate to be so pessimistic but we may find that tolerance has its limits and the multicultural ideology while it seemed like a nice idea back in the 1960's may not be worth all the trouble.
I think that's a good summary juice but if you look at the North the cost of allowing the society to slip into nihilism is too high and in nobody's interest. It is not like some switch that can be reversed either.
It isn't good for business and those are the ones who decide most things.
I was at a conference on the banks yesterday and Ajay Chopra from the IMF was talking about a system for bank resolution. Needs to be credible and have enough resources behind it. The same goes for integration of poor Muslims into British society.
Any work with disadvantaged sectors needs money . You can't tell 10 year olds with behavioural problems to cop on and do their homework like the middle class kids.
They need one on one support and people who can show them an alternative path.
A lot of the more radical Muslim stuff that draws disaffected people in is bollocks but of course it's not helpful either for the Yanks and the Brits to bomb Pakistan and Afghanistan whenever they fancy.
fcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
The Muslims have been slapping the brit goivernment around for years, demanding this, demanding that, feck them, they are citizens and should be treated as equals and no more, Enoch Powell was a bastard but he is proving to be right on the issue of immigration.
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
fcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
The Muslims have been slapping the brit goivernment around for years, demanding this, demanding that, feck them, they are citizens and should be treated as equals and no more, Enoch Powell was a b**tard but he is proving to be right on the issue of immigration.
It never ceases to amaze me that post Stalin and Adolf, that this bile actually passes for discourse in a 1st world country.
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
Normal kids don't attract enough benefits. ;)
Meanwhile, as if we expected anything else. http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/men-charged-with-mosque-arson-were-british-soldiers-595854.html
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2013, 05:49:43 PM
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
fcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
The Muslims have been slapping the brit goivernment around for years, demanding this, demanding that, feck them, they are citizens and should be treated as equals and no more, Enoch Powell was a b**tard but he is proving to be right on the issue of immigration.
It never ceases to amaze me that post Stalin and Adolf, that this bile actually passes for discourse in a 1st world country.
It's terrible to see an Irishman deleting his entire IQ and turning into a Yank. :'( :'(
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2013, 05:49:43 PM
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
fcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
The Muslims have been slapping the brit goivernment around for years, demanding this, demanding that, feck them, they are citizens and should be treated as equals and no more, Enoch Powell was a b**tard but he is proving to be right on the issue of immigration.
It never ceases to amaze me that post Stalin and Adolf, that this bile actually passes for discourse in a 1st world country.
Fack aff, one on one time for these kids? again I ask, where are the funds coming from to pay people to work with these kids? Are their parents incapable of doing whatever it takes to help their kids get on the right path or should the State pay someone to in a one on one situation, how many kids would require this one one one time?
As for that other tit, I am Irish not a yank and questioning people's IQ, really?
So the parents are not to be held accountable for the kids behavior, certainly the kid cannot be held accountable so that leaves the State, yeah, we will fob little Jimmy's behavior off on the Government and let the taxpayer pay for some one on one time because we as parents are not able to take care of our own business.
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 06:47:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2013, 05:49:43 PM
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
fcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
The Muslims have been slapping the brit goivernment around for years, demanding this, demanding that, feck them, they are citizens and should be treated as equals and no more, Enoch Powell was a b**tard but he is proving to be right on the issue of immigration.
It never ceases to amaze me that post Stalin and Adolf, that this bile actually passes for discourse in a 1st world country.
Fack aff, one on one time for these kids? again I ask, where are the funds coming from to pay people to work with these kids? Are their parents incapable of doing whatever it takes to help their kids get on the right path or should the State pay someone to in a one on one situation, how many kids would require this one one one time?
As for that other tit, I am Irish not a yank and questioning people's IQ, really?
So the parents are not to be held accountable for the kids behavior, certainly the kid cannot be held accountable so that leaves the State, yeah, we will fob little Jimmy's behavior off on the Government and let the taxpayer pay for some one on one time because we as parents are not able to take care of our own business.
You are arguing the usual straw man about the parents being held accountable. Like I said, that lazy stereotype doesn't pass as a serious argument anywhere else, at least not since WW2.
When presented with the issue of a child with behavioural issues here is the standard response: resort to tired insulting rant blaming his parents and some politicians which you don't like. But whatever you do don't pretend the society which you are part of has any responsibility or obligations to the boy.
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2013, 06:57:50 PM
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 06:47:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2013, 05:49:43 PM
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
fcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
The Muslims have been slapping the brit goivernment around for years, demanding this, demanding that, feck them, they are citizens and should be treated as equals and no more, Enoch Powell was a b**tard but he is proving to be right on the issue of immigration.
It never ceases to amaze me that post Stalin and Adolf, that this bile actually passes for discourse in a 1st world country.
Fack aff, one on one time for these kids? again I ask, where are the funds coming from to pay people to work with these kids? Are their parents incapable of doing whatever it takes to help their kids get on the right path or should the State pay someone to in a one on one situation, how many kids would require this one one one time?
As for that other tit, I am Irish not a yank and questioning people's IQ, really?
So the parents are not to be held accountable for the kids behavior, certainly the kid cannot be held accountable so that leaves the State, yeah, we will fob little Jimmy's behavior off on the Government and let the taxpayer pay for some one on one time because we as parents are not able to take care of our own business.
You are arguing the usual straw man about the parents being held accountable. Like I said, that lazy stereotype doesn't pass as a serious argument anywhere else, at least not since WW2.
When presented with the issue of a child with behavioural issues here is the standard response: resort to tired insulting rant blaming his parents and some politicians which you don't like. But whatever you do don't pretend the society which you are part of has any responsibility or obligations to the boy.
Lazy stereotype? eh the parents are accountable for their children, it is not a stereotype, it is a fact.
If the parents are not to be held responsible who is?
Again you failed to mention who was going to pay for this one one one time with these kids? what qualifications do these thousands of helpers have in order to work with these kids?
I am assuming that since no human being is to be held accountable for the kids behavior it then it falls to the State to carry the burden, is that about the height of it?
How many children have behavioral issues in Britain? I would have to think there would be thousands of them your idea of one on one time for these kids is absolutely laughable, of course the State should carry some of the burden but the parents would need to be taught how to deal with these kids, I would say it would be better for the parents to be educated and trained in how to help their own than have some stranger try and straighten them out, it would also be far more cost effective!
By the way, you don't seem to feel that A, the parents bear any responsibility whatsoever and B you have no concept of what it means to be a parent if you think the parents are not a big part of this kids behavior and that they should be held accountable to raise him to be a decent citizen, they should get help sure but not one on one help like you laughably suggest!
We raised our two girls and thank God we never had issues that these people face, if we had we would have met it head on, got ourselves educated on how to best handle it and we would have worked hard at getting to behave, end of.
Stew- a lot of poverty is systemic. Apple stashes 100bn abroad instead of paying taxes, for example.
Many poor people don't have problems with their kids but some do. Middle class people too. There can be loads of reasons.
A woman I know from work just got a super promotion but her kids are neglected and all the other kids can't stand them.
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 07:40:55 PM
Lazy stereotype? eh the parents are accountable for their children, it is not a stereotype, it is a fact.
If the parents are not to be held responsible who is?
Again you failed to mention who was going to pay for this one one one time with these kids? what qualifications do these thousands of helpers have in order to work with these kids?
I am assuming that since no human being is to be held accountable for the kids behavior it then it falls to the State to carry the burden, is that about the height of it?
How many children have behavioral issues in Britain? I would have to think there would be thousands of them your idea of one on one time for these kids is absolutely laughable, of course the State should carry some of the burden but the parents would need to be taught how to deal with these kids, I would say it would be better for the parents to be educated and trained in how to help their own than have some stranger try and straighten them out, it would also be far more cost effective!
By the way, you don't seem to feel that A, the parents bear any responsibility whatsoever and B you have no concept of what it means to be a parent if you think the parents are not a big part of this kids behavior and that they should be held accountable to raise him to be a decent citizen, they should get help sure but not one on one help like you laughably suggest!
We raised our two girls and thank God we never had issues that these people face, if we had we would have met it head on, got ourselves educated on how to best handle it and we would have worked hard at getting to behave, end of.
As usual you assume I am making the most extreme argument and dig a trench and fight against it. No one is saying that parents should never be held accountable and equally no one is saying that the State must always be 100% responsible. There is a balance to these things.
Most parents will do everything they can for their kids. This has nothing to do with class, wealth or whether you vote Republican or Democrat. But blindly blaming parents for behavioural problems and absolving the State from responsibility is a recipe for disaster. The States has the
highest incarceration rate on earth (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) and probably in history. How much does that cost? How many victims of senseless crime might be saved if some of those incarcerated were caught early (i.e. as soon as they demonstrated the first sign of behavioural or learning difficulty) and set straight?
Meanwhile, as if we expected anything else. http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/men-charged-with-mosque-arson-were-british-soldiers-595854.html
[/quote]
Plenty of news coverage ::)
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2013, 08:38:03 PM
Quote from: stew on May 28, 2013, 07:40:55 PM
Lazy stereotype? eh the parents are accountable for their children, it is not a stereotype, it is a fact.
If the parents are not to be held responsible who is?
Again you failed to mention who was going to pay for this one one one time with these kids? what qualifications do these thousands of helpers have in order to work with these kids?
I am assuming that since no human being is to be held accountable for the kids behavior it then it falls to the State to carry the burden, is that about the height of it?
How many children have behavioral issues in Britain? I would have to think there would be thousands of them your idea of one on one time for these kids is absolutely laughable, of course the State should carry some of the burden but the parents would need to be taught how to deal with these kids, I would say it would be better for the parents to be educated and trained in how to help their own than have some stranger try and straighten them out, it would also be far more cost effective!
By the way, you don't seem to feel that A, the parents bear any responsibility whatsoever and B you have no concept of what it means to be a parent if you think the parents are not a big part of this kids behavior and that they should be held accountable to raise him to be a decent citizen, they should get help sure but not one on one help like you laughably suggest!
We raised our two girls and thank God we never had issues that these people face, if we had we would have met it head on, got ourselves educated on how to best handle it and we would have worked hard at getting to behave, end of.
As usual you assume I am making the most extreme argument and dig a trench and fight against it. No one is saying that parents should never be held accountable and equally no one is saying that the State must always be 100% responsible. There is a balance to these things.
Most parents will do everything they can for their kids. This has nothing to do with class, wealth or whether you vote Republican or Democrat. But blindly blaming parents for behavioural problems and absolving the State from responsibility is a recipe for disaster. The States has the highest incarceration rate on earth (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) and probably in history. How much does that cost? How many victims of senseless crime might be saved if some of those incarcerated were caught early (i.e. as soon as they demonstrated the first sign of behavioural or learning difficulty) and set straight?
I didn't bring class into this thread, someone else did.
I also said that the parents AND the State need to work together to get this done, no excuse for a parent not to get educated on how to best help their children.
The State should hold training seminars in all major metropolitan area's and they should also support the more rural area's in educating the parents so that they can learn to work through the issues with their children.
The system in the States is a disgrace to be sure, no arguments on that score!
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 01:59:05 AM
I didn't bring class into this thread, someone else did.
I also said that the parents AND the State need to work together to get this done, no excuse for a parent not to get educated on how to best help their children.
The State should hold training seminars in all major metropolitan area's and they should also support the more rural area's in educating the parents so that they can learn to work through the issues with their children.
The system in the States is a disgrace to be sure, no arguments on that score!
What about kids whose parents are deceased or incapacitated in some way? If the parents don't take responsibility then what?
Quote from: muppet on May 29, 2013, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 01:59:05 AM
I didn't bring class into this thread, someone else did.
I also said that the parents AND the State need to work together to get this done, no excuse for a parent not to get educated on how to best help their children.
The State should hold training seminars in all major metropolitan area's and they should also support the more rural area's in educating the parents so that they can learn to work through the issues with their children.
The system in the States is a disgrace to be sure, no arguments on that score!
What about kids whose parents are deceased or incapacitated in some way? If the parents don't take responsibility then what?
Then the State should take care of them in either scenario! The kids needs to be protected and have a chance at a normal life and if the parents are unfit to fulfill their duties as parents for any reason then the State has to step in and help the families.
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 29, 2013, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 01:59:05 AM
I didn't bring class into this thread, someone else did.
I also said that the parents AND the State need to work together to get this done, no excuse for a parent not to get educated on how to best help their children.
The State should hold training seminars in all major metropolitan area's and they should also support the more rural area's in educating the parents so that they can learn to work through the issues with their children.
The system in the States is a disgrace to be sure, no arguments on that score!
What about kids whose parents are deceased or incapacitated in some way? If the parents don't take responsibility then what?
Then the State should take care of them in either scenario! The kids needs to be protected and have a chance at a normal life and if the parents are unfit to fulfill their duties as parents for any reason then the State has to step in and help the families.
Not to start a whole new debate, but is this not half the problem at least. The state have stepped in to help too many families and it is now expected that they will do so, parents no longer see it as their responsibility as long as the child welfare cheque keeps coming along with the dole they don't give a monkeys.
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 29, 2013, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 01:59:05 AM
I didn't bring class into this thread, someone else did.
I also said that the parents AND the State need to work together to get this done, no excuse for a parent not to get educated on how to best help their children.
The State should hold training seminars in all major metropolitan area's and they should also support the more rural area's in educating the parents so that they can learn to work through the issues with their children.
The system in the States is a disgrace to be sure, no arguments on that score!
What about kids whose parents are deceased or incapacitated in some way? If the parents don't take responsibility then what?
Then the State should take care of them in either scenario! The kids needs to be protected and have a chance at a normal life and if the parents are unfit to fulfill their duties as parents for any reason then the State has to step in and help the families.
All perfectly reasonable and normal Stew.
But it seems at odds with this:
QuoteAgain you failed to mention who was going to pay for this one one one time with these kids? what qualifications do these thousands of helpers have in order to work with these kids?
I am assuming that since no human being is to be held accountable for the kids behavior it then it falls to the State to carry the burden, is that about the height of it?
I liked this.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2013/05/uk-mosque-greets-protesters-with-tea-and-custard-creams.html
A small mosque in the U.K. is being praised for extending an olive branch to protesters from the English Defense League, a group that has helped fuel an anti-Muslim backlash following the daytime slaying of a British soldier.
When a small group of EDL supporters turned up at the mosque, they were greeted by worshippers, including children -- some who held signs that read "York Mosque welcomes anyone who condemns extremist violence."
Anyone see the episode of the Estate from Waterford. what a useless lazy shower of good for nothing cvnts. What hope do any of their kids have to get along in this world and break the cycle of poverty. The problem is we are giving people a hand out not a hand up. I'm all for helping those who've fallen on hard times, but as for those who make bad decision after bad decision there must be an end point. Its not the governments money that's supporting these people-it's the taxpayers money.
The best one ever was the single mom who was too lazy to go down to town hall to get a waiver for her bin charges. What did she do-fire about 50 bags of trash right outside her back door. What type of example did that set for her young daughter? Can you imagine a respectable family having to live beside a pig like that.
Quote from: muppet on May 29, 2013, 01:35:33 PM
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 29, 2013, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: stew on May 29, 2013, 01:59:05 AM
I didn't bring class into this thread, someone else did.
I also said that the parents AND the State need to work together to get this done, no excuse for a parent not to get educated on how to best help their children.
The State should hold training seminars in all major metropolitan area's and they should also support the more rural area's in educating the parents so that they can learn to work through the issues with their children.
The system in the States is a disgrace to be sure, no arguments on that score!
What about kids whose parents are deceased or incapacitated in some way? If the parents don't take responsibility then what?
Then the State should take care of them in either scenario! The kids needs to be protected and have a chance at a normal life and if the parents are unfit to fulfill their duties as parents for any reason then the State has to step in and help the families.
All perfectly reasonable and normal Stew.
But it seems at odds with this: QuoteAgain you failed to mention who was going to pay for this one one one time with these kids? what qualifications do these thousands of helpers have in order to work with these kids?
I am assuming that since no human being is to be held accountable for the kids behavior it then it falls to the State to carry the burden, is that about the height of it?
Not at all, you gave me scenarios after that was written and I answered with honest answers that are consistent, if a kid is an orphan the State should be taking care of those children but these cases are few and far between, I had to wrench out of you an acknowledgement that the parents should be responsible for their children's behavior and at that point the scenario's came into the fray.
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
2nd lad charged today with murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich. Both of the Nigerian-community gents are looking at 40-year stretches at Her Majesty's pleasure.
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
Wow
Has Stew just been busted as a liberal at heart?
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
people are the most important fabric of nature and society
... you hateful cnut
;D
Best of luck with the treatment Stew.
Pity about the bills. In a 'liberal' (or even remotely middle of the road) place you mightn't have any.
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
I am a christian you idiot, I do not have the luxury of not giving two shites about people, people are the most important fabric of nature and society, do you even comprehend that you ignoramus?
I am no neo conservative you hateful cnut, I am accountable for me and mine, I brought my kids up the right way and we do not do serial handouts, I have been very ill of late and have bills owed to the hospital you don't want to think about but I will pay then because I owe for the great care i received, it's called being a man, paying your bills and taking care of those that had a vested interest in your word, but you would know nothing about that would you, you bleeding heart idiot!
I have had serious head trauma, I have hospital bills that total thus far over $150,000 dollars and climbing and I have emptied my retirement fund to offset these costs, that is a fact, I am also out of work because I cannot drive but I have not filed for unemployment because I believe we are fine without it.
Never lecture me on morals or politics because I will destroy you, liberals crack under scrutiny and they disgust me, you disgust me, if you have to ask me how you have idiot idea's after your posts you sir, are a simpleton, I loathe you and your ignorance but know that no matter what happens to us financially we will never sell our souls to the almighty dollar, but we will be accountable to society and we will leave this planet in better shape than we found it, that is our goal and we will achieve it.
All the best with your liberalism, it must be nice to be accountable for nothing but demanding everything, it's economics stupid!!!!!!!!
Good luck with the treatment, Stew.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw
btw I don't think Muppet is a liberal. Life is more nuanced than Fox classifications.
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
I am a christian you idiot ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D , I do not have the luxury of not giving two shites about people Some of us don't require the fear of an imaginary deity sending us to an imaginary torture chamber (your god sounds like a charmer by the way) , people are the most important fabric of nature and society, do you even comprehend that you ignoramus?
I am no neo conservative (You clearly are, you have lived in the United States of Greed too long if that is not clear to you) you hateful cnut (Pot kettle red white and blue), I am accountable for me and mine, I brought my kids up the right way and we do not do serial handouts, I have been very ill of late and have bills owed to the hospital you don't want to think about but I will pay then because I owe for the great care i received, it's called being a man, paying your bills and taking care of those that had a vested interest in your word, but you would know nothing about that would you, you bleeding heart idiot! (I'm pretty sure Muppet pays his taxes)
I have had serious head trauma, I have hospital bills that total thus far over $150,000 dollars and climbing and I have emptied my retirement fund to offset these costs, that is a fact, I am also out of work because I cannot drive but I have not filed for unemployment because I believe we are fine without it.
Never lecture me on morals or politics because I will destroy you, liberals crack under scrutiny and, you disgust me they disgust me (how very Christian of you, I mean it, that sums up Christianity), if you have to ask me how you have idiot idea's after your posts you sir, are a simpleton, I loathe you (Nice) and your ignorance but know that no matter what happens to us financially we will never sell our souls (No such thing as a soul) to the almighty dollar (is it really that almighty, but we will be accountable to society and we will leave this planet in better shape than we found it (you're joking right), that is our goal and we will achieve it.
All the best with your liberalism, it must be nice to be accountable for nothing but demanding everything, it's economics stupid!!!!!!!! A very good, so it wasn't American extremist capitalism that fucked the world economy then
Yank Alert.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26375902.jpg)
Stew, let's set aside the ideological crap and try to turn all this negative into a positive.
A couple of posters here recently posted very difficult personal stories, similar to yours, and I hope found the responses heartening.
You may have seen them but here they are again. There are probably more on the board going further back.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=23272.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=23272.0)
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=23272.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=23272.0)
No one wants to see someone left with huge medical bills. Why don't you set up a link, like BCB1 did, and I am certain some of the lads here will help out. I know it won't come anywhere near your bills but surely any amount would help.
You can set it up so donations would be publicly anonymous and known only to yourself.
Good stuff Muppet. Best of luck Stew. Sorry to hear you're going through a hard time.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 02, 2013, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
I am a christian you idiot ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D , I do not have the luxury of not giving two shites about people Some of us don't require the fear of an imaginary deity sending us to an imaginary torture chamber (your god sounds like a charmer by the way) , people are the most important fabric of nature and society, do you even comprehend that you ignoramus?
I am no neo conservative (You clearly are, you have lived in the United States of Greed too long if that is not clear to you) you hateful cnut (Pot kettle red white and blue), I am accountable for me and mine, I brought my kids up the right way and we do not do serial handouts, I have been very ill of late and have bills owed to the hospital you don't want to think about but I will pay then because I owe for the great care i received, it's called being a man, paying your bills and taking care of those that had a vested interest in your word, but you would know nothing about that would you, you bleeding heart idiot! (I'm pretty sure Muppet pays his taxes)
I have had serious head trauma, I have hospital bills that total thus far over $150,000 dollars and climbing and I have emptied my retirement fund to offset these costs, that is a fact, I am also out of work because I cannot drive but I have not filed for unemployment because I believe we are fine without it.
Never lecture me on morals or politics because I will destroy you, liberals crack under scrutiny and, you disgust me they disgust me (how very Christian of you, I mean it, that sums up Christianity), if you have to ask me how you have idiot idea's after your posts you sir, are a simpleton, I loathe you (Nice) and your ignorance but know that no matter what happens to us financially we will never sell our souls (No such thing as a soul) to the almighty dollar (is it really that almighty, but we will be accountable to society and we will leave this planet in better shape than we found it (you're joking right), that is our goal and we will achieve it.
All the best with your liberalism, it must be nice to be accountable for nothing but demanding everything, it's economics stupid!!!!!!!! A very good, so it wasn't American extremist capitalism that fucked the world economy then
Yank Alert.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26375902.jpg)
Dolt!
Just stepped into this thread. Sorry to hear about your situation, Stew. I wish you the best.
Some serious Connacht tag-team action going on here. Queen Medb would be proud to see her counties reuniting against a common foe, like a single American.
I am out of her I do owe muppet an apology and muppet, I am sorry because I was wrong about you.
I am looking at brain surgery to cure an issue with epilepsy that has haunted me since 89 when I got hit by a drunk driver and almost lost my life, I had to learn to read and write again after that and as i get older it has reared it's ugly head again.
I have been on a drug called sertaline since November of 2012, it is an anti depression drug, a generic drug I believe and I have been feeling better ever since, I got down because my wife is working 60 hours a week and I was working in outside sales and had a great gig, the problem was we were a company of three and I resigned because I could not go on sales calls and did not want to be a burden on my boss who was and is a great guy, I am also am afraid to drive in case I take a head stagger and kill someone, I am terrified of driving and have not done so in ages, I don't think I will ever drive again and that is fine by me.
I coach soccer now, both privately and for two clubs, Allouez and Green Bay Lightning, I also coach at the house of speed in the winter, that helps me feel like I contribute to my family and I do all the housework so I keep myself busy.
Finally, I am done on this site, as someone who is one of the few who has different political beliefs than the masses on here I am tired of lot's of things, funnily enough the Fox references take it out of me because I hardly ever watch fox, I do not apologize for my beliefs and wish all on here well, even yer man mayowhatever. I have made many mistakes on here and have had a blast for the most part, it was a great vehicle to keep me connected with Ireland and the Irish and I loved the banter, in the glory days you had fearon going at it with the OWC crowd, Nifan was always a class act as was Seanie and O'Neill is the funniest bastard on this site, POG you are missed and Orior you are some pup.
I have been advised to read a lot more, play chess and do crosswords and that is what I am going to do, I need to get off this site pronto and if I offended you in the past I am truly sorry, I have not been myself and at this juncture I am simply hoping to have this surgery and get on with my life, if things go south I have had one hell of a ride, I have loved my life and have had the privilege of sharing it with the most amazing woman I have ever met, how can you top that.
All the best dudes, hasta!
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 02, 2013, 05:55:42 AM
Has Stew just been busted as a liberal at heart?
You bastid Eamon................................................... :P
I am a libertarian.
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 10:10:51 AM
Best of luck with the treatment Stew.
Pity about the bills. In a 'liberal' (or even remotely middle of the road) place you mightn't have any.
Muppet, I came here and love this Country, I own my situation and I also know that we will be fine, I have the love of a tremendous woman and we have done well oversea's in our investing, that and we will never touch the wife's retirement fund, mine is fecked but we paid our bills and I am still $77,000 in the hole for medical bills, the hospital is great about working with us so that will work out well.
Quote from: Asal Mor on June 02, 2013, 12:35:33 PM
Good stuff Muppet. Best of luck Stew. Sorry to hear you're going through a hard time.
Thanks Asal, much appreciated.
Quote from: Syferus on June 03, 2013, 06:44:52 AM
Some serious Connacht tag-team action going on here. Queen Medb would be proud to see her counties reuniting against a common foe, like a single American.
Syferus, maybe Rossfan can show you when it's time to understand that "is binn béal ina thost".
This is way over your head, with all due respect.
Stew
You will always be welcome here. I was up in your part of the country a few weeks ago on the way to Newry and thinking about yourself over in the States watching the 2002 final every so often. Many GAA followers never get that all Ireland final win privilege and you express what it means very well.
Nár laga Dia thú.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 02, 2013, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
I am a christian you idiot ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D , I do not have the luxury of not giving two shites about people Some of us don't require the fear of an imaginary deity sending us to an imaginary torture chamber (your god sounds like a charmer by the way) , people are the most important fabric of nature and society, do you even comprehend that you ignoramus?
I am no neo conservative (You clearly are, you have lived in the United States of Greed too long if that is not clear to you) you hateful cnut (Pot kettle red white and blue), I am accountable for me and mine, I brought my kids up the right way and we do not do serial handouts, I have been very ill of late and have bills owed to the hospital you don't want to think about but I will pay then because I owe for the great care i received, it's called being a man, paying your bills and taking care of those that had a vested interest in your word, but you would know nothing about that would you, you bleeding heart idiot! (I'm pretty sure Muppet pays his taxes)
I have had serious head trauma, I have hospital bills that total thus far over $150,000 dollars and climbing and I have emptied my retirement fund to offset these costs, that is a fact, I am also out of work because I cannot drive but I have not filed for unemployment because I believe we are fine without it.
Never lecture me on morals or politics because I will destroy you, liberals crack under scrutiny and, you disgust me they disgust me (how very Christian of you, I mean it, that sums up Christianity), if you have to ask me how you have idiot idea's after your posts you sir, are a simpleton, I loathe you (Nice) and your ignorance but know that no matter what happens to us financially we will never sell our souls (No such thing as a soul) to the almighty dollar (is it really that almighty, but we will be accountable to society and we will leave this planet in better shape than we found it (you're joking right), that is our goal and we will achieve it.
All the best with your liberalism, it must be nice to be accountable for nothing but demanding everything, it's economics stupid!!!!!!!! A very good, so it wasn't American extremist capitalism that fucked the world economy then
Yank Alert.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26375902.jpg)
You MGHU, are the most hateful poster on this board and it would be a whole lot better without you.
No sweat Stew, I didn't need to see an apology.
Things get heated here sometimes but I personally don't take it very seriously. If there were other stresses in my life though I might see it differently.
Fair play for making your post and explaining your difficulties and I sincerely wish you all the best.
My offer earlier on the thread still stands though.
Best of luck.
Quote from: stew on June 03, 2013, 07:15:43 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 10:10:51 AM
Best of luck with the treatment Stew.
Pity about the bills. In a 'liberal' (or even remotely middle of the road) place you mightn't have any.
Muppet, I came here and love this Country, I own my situation and I also know that we will be fine, I have the love of a tremendous woman and we have done well oversea's in our investing, that and we will never touch the wife's retirement fund, mine is fecked but we paid our bills and I am still $77,000 in the hole for medical bills, the hospital is great about working with us so that will work out well.
It is a great country. I love going there and the people are fantastic. But if I could tweak it just a little.......... ;)
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2013, 08:19:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on June 03, 2013, 06:44:52 AM
Some serious Connacht tag-team action going on here. Queen Medb would be proud to see her counties reuniting against a common foe, like a single American.
Syferus, maybe Rossfan can show you when it's time to unde that "is binn béal ina thost".
This is way over your head, with all due respect.
Nah, I'm pretty sure I get it when I see you're winding up your attack herron when someone dares not to be more left than a San Francisco LGBT parade and then they sink you with a personal story of hardship, like stew did.
I actually don't know why one anecdote should change the direction of a discussion but at least it drained some of the bile from the thread, on both ends.
Best wishes, stew.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 03, 2013, 08:57:43 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 02, 2013, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
I am a christian you idiot ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D , I do not have the luxury of not giving two shites about people Some of us don't require the fear of an imaginary deity sending us to an imaginary torture chamber (your god sounds like a charmer by the way) , people are the most important fabric of nature and society, do you even comprehend that you ignoramus?
I am no neo conservative (You clearly are, you have lived in the United States of Greed too long if that is not clear to you) you hateful cnut (Pot kettle red white and blue), I am accountable for me and mine, I brought my kids up the right way and we do not do serial handouts, I have been very ill of late and have bills owed to the hospital you don't want to think about but I will pay then because I owe for the great care i received, it's called being a man, paying your bills and taking care of those that had a vested interest in your word, but you would know nothing about that would you, you bleeding heart idiot! (I'm pretty sure Muppet pays his taxes)
I have had serious head trauma, I have hospital bills that total thus far over $150,000 dollars and climbing and I have emptied my retirement fund to offset these costs, that is a fact, I am also out of work because I cannot drive but I have not filed for unemployment because I believe we are fine without it.
Never lecture me on morals or politics because I will destroy you, liberals crack under scrutiny and, you disgust me they disgust me (how very Christian of you, I mean it, that sums up Christianity), if you have to ask me how you have idiot idea's after your posts you sir, are a simpleton, I loathe you (Nice) and your ignorance but know that no matter what happens to us financially we will never sell our souls (No such thing as a soul) to the almighty dollar (is it really that almighty, but we will be accountable to society and we will leave this planet in better shape than we found it (you're joking right), that is our goal and we will achieve it.
All the best with your liberalism, it must be nice to be accountable for nothing but demanding everything, it's economics stupid!!!!!!!! A very good, so it wasn't American extremist capitalism that fucked the world economy then
Yank Alert.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26375902.jpg)
You MGHU, are the most hateful poster on this board and it would be a whole lot better without you.
Would you stop, sure his own post was full of hateful comments. Stews unfortunate head injury is a seperate issue from our disagreement. I presumed Stew wasn't trying to use his comments to bookend the line of comment. So you are saying it is acceptable for Stew to post a comment laced with hatred.
Quote from: seafoid on June 03, 2013, 08:19:18 AM
Quote from: Syferus on June 03, 2013, 06:44:52 AM
Some serious Connacht tag-team action going on here. Queen Medb would be proud to see her counties reuniting against a common foe, like a single American.
Syferus, maybe Rossfan can show you when it's time to understand that "is binn béal ina thost".
This is way over your head, with all due respect.
Everything is over Syfín's head for God's sake ::)
Is binn béal ina thost - uaireanta i gcás a lán daoine ach an t-am go léir i gcás Shyfín.
Best wishes to Stew --- but please stop sticking apostrophes before the "s" in plural words ;)
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 03, 2013, 08:51:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 03, 2013, 08:57:43 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 02, 2013, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
I am a christian you idiot ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D , I do not have the luxury of not giving two shites about people Some of us don't require the fear of an imaginary deity sending us to an imaginary torture chamber (your god sounds like a charmer by the way) , people are the most important fabric of nature and society, do you even comprehend that you ignoramus?
I am no neo conservative (You clearly are, you have lived in the United States of Greed too long if that is not clear to you) you hateful cnut (Pot kettle red white and blue), I am accountable for me and mine, I brought my kids up the right way and we do not do serial handouts, I have been very ill of late and have bills owed to the hospital you don't want to think about but I will pay then because I owe for the great care i received, it's called being a man, paying your bills and taking care of those that had a vested interest in your word, but you would know nothing about that would you, you bleeding heart idiot! (I'm pretty sure Muppet pays his taxes)
I have had serious head trauma, I have hospital bills that total thus far over $150,000 dollars and climbing and I have emptied my retirement fund to offset these costs, that is a fact, I am also out of work because I cannot drive but I have not filed for unemployment because I believe we are fine without it.
Never lecture me on morals or politics because I will destroy you, liberals crack under scrutiny and, you disgust me they disgust me (how very Christian of you, I mean it, that sums up Christianity), if you have to ask me how you have idiot idea's after your posts you sir, are a simpleton, I loathe you (Nice) and your ignorance but know that no matter what happens to us financially we will never sell our souls (No such thing as a soul) to the almighty dollar (is it really that almighty, but we will be accountable to society and we will leave this planet in better shape than we found it (you're joking right), that is our goal and we will achieve it.
All the best with your liberalism, it must be nice to be accountable for nothing but demanding everything, it's economics stupid!!!!!!!! A very good, so it wasn't American extremist capitalism that fucked the world economy then
Yank Alert.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26375902.jpg)
You MGHU, are the most hateful poster on this board and it would be a whole lot better without you.
Would you stop, sure his own post was full of hateful comments. Stews unfortunate head injury is a seperate issue from our disagreement. I presumed Stew wasn't trying to use his comments to bookend the line of comment. So you are saying it is acceptable for Stew to post a comment laced with hatred.
You are a hateful cnut because you stuck your head into a debate/ argument between two seperate posters, one of which was obvious talking about something personal to try and score cheap points about religion and I can only assume to try and appear witty. Muppet, who was on the receiving end of the personal abuse and would have been within his rights to have a dig back, showed the class and decency you were so obviously lacking.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 04, 2013, 12:27:12 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 03, 2013, 08:51:02 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 03, 2013, 08:57:43 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on June 02, 2013, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 02, 2013, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2013, 12:45:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2013, 12:54:03 AM
Quotefcuk you are some pup, I assume the 10 year old with behavioral problems has parents, where would the money come from to pay for this one on one support?
Hold someone accountable for the kids behavior, here's a radical thought, how about mummy and or daddy sat the wee fella down and tell him to do his homework, get him into a routine every night same time for this work and if he fcuks about stick a boot up his hole, you namby pamby liberals make me want to puke!
This comment betrayed your real thinking.
You are aptly named, I mean what I say and meant every word, just because i want to hold people accountable and want fiscal responsibility does not mean I am a heartless cnut, far from it.
You wanted no part of the parents being accountable for the actions/ behavior of their kids, it was dragged out of you, you had one of the dumbest idea's ever on this board and you look ridiculous on this thread, quit posting lad, you are making a complete tit out of yourself ffs!
What was my 'dumbest idea ever on this board'?
What did you 'drag out of me'?
You started with your neo-con rant and ended up agreeing with every body when asked a couple of really basic questions.
Are you sure you are all there Stew?
I am a christian you idiot ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D , I do not have the luxury of not giving two shites about people Some of us don't require the fear of an imaginary deity sending us to an imaginary torture chamber (your god sounds like a charmer by the way) , people are the most important fabric of nature and society, do you even comprehend that you ignoramus?
I am no neo conservative (You clearly are, you have lived in the United States of Greed too long if that is not clear to you) you hateful cnut (Pot kettle red white and blue), I am accountable for me and mine, I brought my kids up the right way and we do not do serial handouts, I have been very ill of late and have bills owed to the hospital you don't want to think about but I will pay then because I owe for the great care i received, it's called being a man, paying your bills and taking care of those that had a vested interest in your word, but you would know nothing about that would you, you bleeding heart idiot! (I'm pretty sure Muppet pays his taxes)
I have had serious head trauma, I have hospital bills that total thus far over $150,000 dollars and climbing and I have emptied my retirement fund to offset these costs, that is a fact, I am also out of work because I cannot drive but I have not filed for unemployment because I believe we are fine without it.
Never lecture me on morals or politics because I will destroy you, liberals crack under scrutiny and, you disgust me they disgust me (how very Christian of you, I mean it, that sums up Christianity), if you have to ask me how you have idiot idea's after your posts you sir, are a simpleton, I loathe you (Nice) and your ignorance but know that no matter what happens to us financially we will never sell our souls (No such thing as a soul) to the almighty dollar (is it really that almighty, but we will be accountable to society and we will leave this planet in better shape than we found it (you're joking right), that is our goal and we will achieve it.
All the best with your liberalism, it must be nice to be accountable for nothing but demanding everything, it's economics stupid!!!!!!!! A very good, so it wasn't American extremist capitalism that fucked the world economy then
Yank Alert.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26375902.jpg)
You MGHU, are the most hateful poster on this board and it would be a whole lot better without you.
Would you stop, sure his own post was full of hateful comments. Stews unfortunate head injury is a seperate issue from our disagreement. I presumed Stew wasn't trying to use his comments to bookend the line of comment. So you are saying it is acceptable for Stew to post a comment laced with hatred.
You are a hateful cnut because you stuck your head into a debate/ argument between two seperate posters, one of which was obvious talking about something personal to try and score cheap points about religion and I can only assume to try and appear witty. Muppet, who was on the receiving end of the personal abuse and would have been within his rights to have a dig back, showed the class and decency you were so obviously lacking.
Give it a rest. Stew's health issues are seperate from his viewpoint. Stew is never afraid to give me a side dig on this board. I show the man more respect by not feeling sorry for him, sure isn't he the one who said that
"I am accountable for me and mine" and
"it's called being a man". I might think Stew is a bit of a gobshite (and I am sure the view is reciprocated) but wouldn't disrespect him enough to have pity on him. I empathise with his circumstances and seperate from his value system and political leanings hope him nothing but improved health and happiness.
Taking someone's feelings into account is not pity. My gripe with you is your need to try and revert all discussions back to religion, and to make cheap, points scoring posts like you did above that trys to divert the argument back to religion. It's a discussion board so your entitled to do so. Just the same as I'm entitled to think you're a bit of a c0ck for doing so.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 04, 2013, 02:05:31 PM
Taking someone's feelings into account is not pity. My gripe with you is your need to try and revert all discussions back to religion, and to make cheap, points scoring posts like you did above that trys to divert the argument back to religion. It's a discussion board so your entitled to do so. Just the same as I'm entitled to think you're a bit of a c0ck for doing so.
Well this is a thread about a religious terrorist attack.
What were the highlighted posts between Muppet and Stew regarding?
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 04, 2013, 03:36:29 PM
What were the highlighted posts between Muppet and Stew regarding?
It was on a relgious thread. The only thing I should apologise for is for being one of those dicks that sticks his opinion in on a one on one side debate.
Again back to Stew, the lad knows we share very few shared beliefs and most of the time it is him (almost always) who just sticks in random derogatory remarks at the others expense. For a while I just thought he was being a dick, until I realised he is an ultra-conservative (well to me). Anyways, I do take his injury seriously, but we should not let that divert us from our normal course of interaction, the man is still a man and is able to fight his own fights (and that is no sympathy, that is begrudging respect).
Tyrone's Own and Stew release a duet. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfuTx8e5ggI)
Muppet, seafoid, deiseach and give her dixie respond. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaWt6Vu0evs)