by thousands in Camlough today-Americans,Basques,Scots,English,Canadians stood together with representatives of practically every county-fantastic to see those who made the ultimate sacrifice remembered honourably
Good to hear. Some people today are too quick to forget the sacrifices these men made for Irelands cause. True Irish heroes. RIP and God bless
Tiocfaidh ar la
Around 20,000 people turned out
My eldest daughter was born in that year. Only thing of note that happened. Can't think of any other good thing happening that year.
Aldaniti won the national I had 50p each way on him. Human league had the Xmas number 1.
Good online archive of information pertaining to the 1981 hunger strike here www.longkesh.info
I remember the hatred that was felt for Thatcher in Ireland during the 1980s.
Then FF got elected in 1997 and implemented her policies.
Quote from: Agent Orange on August 14, 2011, 10:38:48 PM
Aldaniti won the national I had 50p each way on him. Human league had the Xmas number 1.
[/quote
Yes forgot that, had a pound on him and Bucks Fizz, didn't do double, drat]
The National Hunger Strike commemoration should be free of party politics. It and the hunger strikers memory has been hijacked by SF. Often people are put off going because it is seen as a SF rally.
Quote from: 4father on August 14, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
The National Hunger Strike commemoration should be free of party politics. It and the hunger strikers memory has been hijacked by SF. Often people are put off going because it is seen as a SF rally.
Well said.
Thatcher was as big a fascist as you'd ever come across.
"Frankenstein" opens & closes on Broadway
"Dynasty" with Joan Collins premieres on ABC-TV
"Hill Street Blues" premieres on NBC-TV
Dan Rather becomes primary anchorman of CBS-TV News
Daylight saving time is introduced in the USSR.
Billie Jean King admits to a lesbian affair with Marilyn Barnett
"Raiders Of The Lost Ark" starring Harrison Ford premieres
Microsoft is restructured to become an incorporated business in its home state of Washington.
"Guernica" of Pablo Picasso returns to Spain
Quote from: 4father on August 14, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
The National Hunger Strike commemoration should be free of party politics. It and the hunger strikers memory has been hijacked by SF. Often people are put off going because it is seen as a SF rally.
Well then you organise one and see how many turn up.SF only party who have always held commemorations even the IRSP who had 3 vols who died on hunger strike fail to have any worthwhile events to commemorate them.Their memory has not been hijacked as Sinn Fein have always remembered them and always will.It was a fantastic event yesterday with family members, fellow hunger strikers and blanket men present long may it continue.
1981 All Ireland Football Final Kerry v Offaly. Kerry 1-12 : Offaly 0-08
1981 All Ireland Hurling Final Offaly v Galway. Offaly 2-12 : Galway 0-15
It was the Chinese year of the Rooster.
Few pics from yesterday found online:
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294215_10150420915834465_779454464_10825399_1141491_n.jpg) (http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294079_10150420216634465_779454464_10816147_4147058_n.jpg)
What did the hunger strikers die for ? Were they any more effective than Wolfe Tone? Ultimately Thatcher beat all her enemies. She destroyed the union movement, the miners, and large chunks of British industry. The Provos weren't alone.
When the Strike ended, their five demands were soon granted (most within three days). That wouldn't have been the case without the hunger strike. Some of the Hunger Strikers would have known from the outset that they would not survive, but were content to continue for their fellow prisoners. Bobby Sands said he did not want to die but deep down knew he would not survive as he famously stated that Britain/Thatcher would "need her pound of flesh". The prison chaplain at the time of the Hunger Strike came to visit Bobby Sands in his cell not long after he had begun his fast. The Priest sought to question Bobby on the morals of his hunger strike, Bobby's only response was to quote the bible: "Greater Love Than This Hath No Man, Than to Lay Down His Life for his Friends". So I think at it's most basic level, they died for the rights of their own comrades in the H Blocks. On a wider level, they would have been well aware that in doing so, they would not only be shining a light on Thatcher's policies and on the brutality in Long Kesh, but would have been regarding it as an extension of the Irish Republican fight for Irish Reunification. The possibilities of Republican success at elections really only came about thanks to the elections of Bobby Sands as an MP, and of Kieran Dohety and Paddy Agnew as TDs during the Strike.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 01:35:58 PM
When the Strike ended, their five demands were soon granted (most within three days). That wouldn't have been the case without the hunger strike.
I'm not so sure of that. On reading Laurence McKeown's book he seems to say that the demands were granted after the prisoners used alternative strategies to wreak the system via the pretence of working it. For example, free association was granted after psychological intimation of loyalist prisoners caused them to refuse to leave their cells. The Brits were only to glad to concede the demands away from the glare of publicity but because the existing set-up was made unworkable not because of the Hunger Strike. Thatcher would have quite happily let another 10 die if needed. However, I would say that the Hunger Strikes were unavoidable in the circumstances. The conditions the men had been living in since '76 was not tenable and things had to be brought to a head.
Quote from: glens abu on August 15, 2011, 10:35:17 AM
Quote from: 4father on August 14, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
The National Hunger Strike commemoration should be free of party politics. It and the hunger strikers memory has been hijacked by SF. Often people are put off going because it is seen as a SF rally.
Well then you organise one and see how many turn up.SF only party who have always held commemorations even the IRSP who had 3 vols who died on hunger strike fail to have any worthwhile events to commemorate them.Their memory has not been hijacked as Sinn Fein have always remembered them and always will.It was a fantastic event yesterday with family members, fellow hunger strikers and blanket men present long may it continue.
That's not the point my friend. As an Irish republican, I attend many commemorations only to be disgusted to hear it used as an opportunity by SF to claim their memories and cross it as support for their 'strategy'. Commemorations should be left as that, a commemoration and not a political rally.
I remember well Toireasa Ferris at the hunger strike rally in Casement saying "support this leadership, this leadership will bring about what we want" etc etc etc. It shouldn't be the case. We don't know what or where some of the hunger strikers would be in terms of the direction which SF and the republican movement has taken. Bobby Sands could have been a Brendan Hughes or he could have been a Pat Sheehan, we just don't know. Commemorations should be about bringing people together to commemorate and not to be used to endorse a strategy which is what SF are doing. It stinks.
The National Hunger Strike committee who organise these things, just like the National Graves are not Sinn Fein, or they are not supposed to be.
Quote from: Ulick on August 15, 2011, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 01:35:58 PM
When the Strike ended, their five demands were soon granted (most within three days). That wouldn't have been the case without the hunger strike.
I'm not so sure of that. On reading Laurence McKeown's book he seems to say that the demands were granted after the prisoners used alternative strategies to wreak the system via the pretence of working it. For example, free association was granted after psychological intimation of loyalist prisoners caused them to refuse to leave their cells. The Brits were only to glad to concede the demands away from the glare of publicity but because the existing set-up was made unworkable not because of the Hunger Strike. Thatcher would have quite happily let another 10 die if needed. However, I would say that the Hunger Strikes were unavoidable in the circumstances. The conditions the men had been living in since '76 was not tenable and things had to be brought to a head.
Correct on that one. Segregation came about after a carefully planned strategy by the prisoners who let on that they 'squeeky booted' to go to the wings and create havoc with Loyalists to prove that the prison wasn't normal and could never work. It is a largely undocumented part of the prison struggle and needs to be recorded - some very good stories as well involving the late Volunteer Larry Marley amongst others.
However, there is no doubting that the blanket protest and of course the tragedy of the hunger strike had its effect and helped heap pressure on to the screws, the governor and the british government. So a combination is probably the best way to describe it.
Quote from: 4father on August 15, 2011, 02:28:51 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 15, 2011, 10:35:17 AM
Quote from: 4father on August 14, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
The National Hunger Strike commemoration should be free of party politics. It and the hunger strikers memory has been hijacked by SF. Often people are put off going because it is seen as a SF rally.
Well then you organise one and see how many turn up.SF only party who have always held commemorations even the IRSP who had 3 vols who died on hunger strike fail to have any worthwhile events to commemorate them.Their memory has not been hijacked as Sinn Fein have always remembered them and always will.It was a fantastic event yesterday with family members, fellow hunger strikers and blanket men present long may it continue.
That's not the point my friend. As an Irish republican, I attend many commemorations only to be disgusted to hear it used as an opportunity by SF to claim their memories and cross it as support for their 'strategy'. Commemorations should be left as that, a commemoration and not a political rally.
I remember well Toireasa Ferris at the hunger strike rally in Casement saying "support this leadership, this leadership will bring about what we want" etc etc etc. It shouldn't be the case. We don't know what or where some of the hunger strikers would be in terms of the direction which SF and the republican movement has taken. Bobby Sands could have been a Brendan Hughes or he could have been a Pat Sheehan, we just don't know. Commemorations should be about bringing people together to commemorate and not to be used to endorse a strategy which is what SF are doing. It stinks.
The National Hunger Strike committee who organise these things, just like the National Graves are not Sinn Fein, or they are not supposed to be.
+1. Completely agree with that 4father
Agree as well. All Commemorations should be 100% independent from political parties. A difficult thing to achieve but wouldn't it be ideal of the NGA was in a position to oversee the organisation of all such major events.
Ronald Reagan becomes president of the US
Minutes after Ronald Reagan becomes president, Iran releases 52 American hostages that had been held captive for 444 days
President Reagan is shot in the chest by would be assassin John Hinkley
Space shuttle Columbia, the world's first reusable spacecraft, is sent into space
A suspended walkway in the Kansas City Hyatt Regency Hotel collapses, killing 113
A female former lover files a "palimony" suit against tennis star Billie Jean King
President Reagan appoints Sandra Day O'Connor to be the first woman on the Supreme Court
The Pac-Man video game is introduced in the US
Alicia Keys, Elijah Wood, Kelly Rowland, Anna Kournikova, and Britney Spears are born
Los Angeles Dodgers win the World Series
Oakland Raiders win Superbowl XV
New York Islanders win the Stanley Cup
Raiders of the Lost Ark is the top grossing film
"Bette Davis Eyes" by Kim Carnes spends the most time at the top of the US charts
MTV debuts on cable television, playing music videos 24 hours a day
Gimme a Break premieres
Its ironic that when these men gave up their lives for their country 30 years ago, we are now no closer to a United Ireland but for totally different reasons, economics suggest that a United Ireland has never been less practical for all sides.
1981
1981 by topic:
Wikimedia Commons has media related to: 1981
1981 (MCMLXXXI) was a common year starting on Thursday (link displays the 1981 Gregorian calendar).
[edit] Events
[edit] January
Main article: January 1981
* January – The subterranean Sarawak Chamber is discovered in Borneo.
* January 1
o Greece enters the European Community, which later becomes the European Union.
o Palau becomes a self-governing territory.
* January 6 – The Brazilian double decker boat Novo Amapo capsizes in the Amazon River, Belem de Cajari, Macapa, Brazil; 230 are killed.
* January 10 – Salvadoran Civil War: The FMLN launches its first major offensive, gaining control of most of Morazán and Chalatenango departments.
* January 16 – Protestant gunmen shoot and wound Bernadette Devlin McAliskey and her husband.
* January 17 – Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos lifts martial law.
* January 19 – United States and Iranian officials sign an agreement to release 52 American hostages after 14 months of captivity.
* January 20 – Iran releases the 52 Americans held for 444 days within minutes of Ronald Reagan succeeding Jimmy Carter as the President of the United States, ending the Iran hostage crisis.
* January 21 – The first DeLorean DMC-12 automobile, a stainless steel sports car with gull-wing doors, rolls off the production line in Dunmurry, Northern Ireland.
* January 23 – An earthquake of 6.8 magnitude in Sichuan, China kills 150.
* January 25
o Chiang Ching ("Madame Mao") is sentenced to death in the People's Republic of China.
o Super Bowl XV: The Oakland Raiders defeat the Philadelphia Eagles 27–10 at the Louisiana Superdome in New Orleans, Louisiana.
* January 27 – The Indonesian passenger ship Tamponas 2 catches fire and capsizes in the Java Sea, killing 580.
[edit] February
Main article: February 1981
* February 4 – Gro Harlem Brundtland becomes Prime Minister of Norway.
* February 8 – 19 fans of Olympiacos FC and 2 fans of AEK Athens die, and 54 are injured, after a stampede at the Karaiskaki Stadium in Pireus, possibly because Gate 7 does not open immediately after the end of the game.
* February 9 – Polish Prime Minister Józef Pinkowski resigns and is replaced by General Wojciech Jaruzelski.
* February 14
o Stardust fire: A fire at the Stardust nightclub in Artane, Dublin, Ireland in the early hours kills 48 and injures 214.
o Australia withdraws recognition of the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia.
* February 23 – Antonio Tejero, with members of the Guardia Civil, enters the Spanish Congress of Deputies and stops the session where Leopoldo Calvo Sotelo is about to be named president of the government. The coup d'état fails thanks to King Juan Carlos.
* February 24 – A powerful, magnitude 6.7 earthquake hits Athens, killing 16 people, injuring thousands and destroying several buildings, mostly in Corinth and the nearby towns of Loutraki, Kiato and Xylokastro.
[edit] March
Main article: March 1981
* March 1 – Bobby Sands, a Provisional Irish Republican Army member, begins a hunger strike for political status in Long Kesh prison (he dies May 5, the first of 10 men).
* March 11 – Chilean military dictator Augusto Pinochet is sworn in as President of Chile for another 8-year term.
* March 17 – In Italy the Propaganda Due Masonic Lodge is discovered.
* March 19 – Three workers are killed and 5 injured during a test of the Space Shuttle Columbia.
* March 29 – The first London Marathon starts with 7,500 runners.
* March 30 – U.S. President Ronald Reagan is shot in the chest outside a Washington, D.C. hotel by John Hinckley, Jr. Two police officers and Press Secretary James Brady are also wounded.
MGHU, I have just realised how much of a ballbag you really are
Quote from: Forever Green on August 15, 2011, 03:50:03 PM
MGHU, I have just realised how much of a ballbag you really are
Why, this is the "1981 remembered" thread is it not?
Quote from: Forever Green on August 15, 2011, 03:50:03 PM
MGHU, I have just realised how much of a ballbag you really are
Took you long enough. This is the same fella who in response to a reference to Francis Hughes receiving regular assaults from the RUC as a young lad, came up with the following gem of a piece of criticism of Hughes:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 23, 2011, 08:00:47 AM
Francis Hughes did not report his attackers to the police
He is also a person who said of the Hunger Strikers that:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 21, 2011, 07:38:49 PM
Their "special" status is bullshit in my opinion, I'm sorry but to me they were thugs.
..and that:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 21, 2011, 03:39:14 PM
These were not just internees they were convicted criminals.
He also remarked that:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM
There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 15, 2011, 04:01:18 PM
Quote from: Forever Green on August 15, 2011, 03:50:03 PM
MGHU, I have just realised how much of a ballbag you really are
Why, this is the "1981 remembered" thread is it not?
MGHU, the initial post of this thread as you well know, marks the thread as being one about respecting the Hunger Strikers on the 30th Anniversary of their deaths. That event bring up painful memories and means a lot to certain people.
Clearly you have no respect for these men, but I would ask that, on this anniversary, you allow those who do respect them and who wish to talk about them in this thread, to do so in peace.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: Forever Green on August 15, 2011, 03:50:03 PM
MGHU, I have just realised how much of a ballbag you really are
Took you long enough. This is the same fella who in response to a reference to Francis Hughes receiving regular assaults from the RUC as a young lad, came up with the following gem of a piece of criticism of Hughes:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 23, 2011, 08:00:47 AM
Francis Hughes did not report his attackers to the police
He is also a person who said of the Hunger Strikers that:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 21, 2011, 07:38:49 PM
Their "special" status is bullshit in my opinion, I'm sorry but to me they were thugs.
..and that:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 21, 2011, 03:39:14 PM
These were not just internees they were convicted criminals.
He also remarked that:
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 20, 2011, 07:36:16 PM
There was more than enough food for them to eat, they committed suicide.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwxfL2ka42Kq4nvu_jQYlAGL8XPpOrEtBb7XpHMiX2oUEuuoF-pA)
We meet again ;D
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 04:19:56 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 15, 2011, 04:01:18 PM
Quote from: Forever Green on August 15, 2011, 03:50:03 PM
MGHU, I have just realised how much of a ballbag you really are
Why, this is the "1981 remembered" thread is it not?
MGHU, the initial post of this thread as you well know, marks the thread as being one about respecting the Hunger Strikers on the 30th Anniversary of their deaths. That event bring up painful memories and means a lot to certain people.
Clearly you have no respect for these men, but I would ask that, on this anniversary, you allow those who do respect them and who wish to talk about them in this thread, to do so in peace.
How many anniversaries are you going to have, seems to be one every week at this rate :P
(http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/article/902/902058/baby-gerald-the-baby-with-the-one-eyebrow-20080825024633180.jpg)
One thing not agreeing with certain stances and voicing your opinion, but to be making fun of people commemorating their dead is more than insensitive. MGHU you are a disgrace. You do nothing but polarise opinion to the extreme on FG and their history.
Quote from: spuds on August 15, 2011, 04:37:39 PM
One thing not agreeing with certain stances and voicing your opinion, but to be making fun of people commemorating their dead is more than insensitive. MGHU you are a disgrace. You do nothing but polarise opinion to the extreme on FG and their history.
The Simpsons picture is purely for Nally Stand, he seems to think he is my Nemisis or something (I knew he would be along, with his multiple quotes from yonks back). To the rest, alot more things happened in 1981, it is arrogant to presume otherwise. Other people also posted other things which happened in 1981, so I am not the only one who thought along these lines.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 15, 2011, 04:56:31 PM
The Simpsons picture is purely for Nally Stand, he seems to think he is my Nemisis or something
Don't flatter yourself.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 15, 2011, 04:56:31 PM
To the rest, alot more things happened in 1981, it is arrogant to presume otherwise. Other people also posted other things which happened in 1981, so I am not the only one who thought along these lines.
Re-read the opening post of the thread. You know well that this thread related to the Hunger Strike. The next number of posts to the thread made that even clearer. You still continued to troll. Show some human decency. You have been told now that this thread is a place for people to remember the Hunger Strikers. I politely ask that you now allow people to do so in peace.
Interesting piece on RTÉ Radio 1 this morning about Irish Hunger Strikes actually. Even for those who don't agree with the 1981 Hunger Strikers, it makes interesting listening:
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/ (http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/)
The full section of the show can be listened to near the bottom of that page (Book: Pawns in the Game: Irish Hunger Strikes 1912 to 1981:
Barry Flynn, Author, with Pat Sheehan and Gerry Kelly who survived lengthy hunger strikes.)
The discussions are about Hunger Strikes/Strikers in Ireland in the 20th Century, with Barry Flynn (the author of a book on the topic), Gerry Kelly, SF (who suffered through 170 attempts at force feeding) and Pat Sheehan, SF (who was 55 days into his Hunger Strike when the Strike was halted in 1981). Horrible sounding description of one method used to force feed from Gerry Kelly at one point. Also an incredible story from Pat Sheehan of his last visit from his family before his Strike began. Sheehan also discusses the effects on the body as a Hunger Strike goes along. They also discuss the FG government's hijacking and burial under 7ft of concrete of the remains of Mayo Hunger Striker Frank Stagg in 1976, in order to prevent his being buried in the Republican Plot where he had requested.
Remarkably mild, balanced and impartial discussion actually. Worth a listen.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 12:17:21 PM
Few pics from yesterday found online:
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294215_10150420915834465_779454464_10825399_1141491_n.jpg)
Hmmm. What does that photograph remind me of?
Oh, yes, this must be it...
(http://www.ulsterwarmemorials.net/assets/images/autogen/a_DSC05669.jpg)
(http://www.ulsterwarmemorials.net/assets/images/autogen/a_Enniskillen_memorial.jpg)
Still, on a lighter note, as the Winner of the "1981 NI Graffito of the Year" so aptly put it, "We'll Never Forget You, Jimmy Sands" ::)
Some more pics I've came across from Camlough yesterday:
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294339_176509165754407_100001859733205_370752_8287318_n.jpg) (http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/185539_176509085754415_100001859733205_370749_4378262_n.jpg) (http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/228937_176509125754411_100001859733205_370750_6993912_n.jpg) (http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/293382_176507932421197_100001859733205_370712_7271337_n.jpg)
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/293657_176508012421189_100001859733205_370714_5439499_n.jpg) (http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294418_176225832449407_100001859733205_369941_1316492_n.jpg)
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/294007_176225299116127_100001859733205_369932_5265351_n.jpg)
Great pics Nally. Good to see so may people commemorate true Irish heroes
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
Some more pics I've came across from Camlough yesterday:
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294339_176509165754407_100001859733205_370752_8287318_n.jpg)
Might they not all be better occupied spending their time helping in the search for The Disappeared?
Just a thought... ::)
Quote from: Forever Green on August 15, 2011, 06:38:48 PM
Great pics Nally. Good to see so may people commemorate true Irish heroes
More to follow if I can track any down...
Today marks the 13th Anniversary of the Omagh Bomb.
I don't agree with MGHU's trolling efforts - but there are very different opinions on comments like this:
Quote from: Forever Green on August 15, 2011, 06:38:48 PM
Good to see so may people commemorate true Irish heroes
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 03:05:43 PM
Agree as well. All Commemorations should be 100% independent from political parties. A difficult thing to achieve but wouldn't it be ideal of the NGA was in a position to oversee the organisation of all such major events.
One word, yes.
But there is a necessity to bring everyone on board and not who the Shinners would like to have there.
Alright that was 23 words.
Again, I agree. Non party politcal, in my eyes, means non party political.
People, we should not respond to MGHU and to anyone else who is attempting to divide and rile... A reply is what they are after.
Quote from: 4father on August 15, 2011, 06:55:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 03:05:43 PM
Agree as well. All Commemorations should be 100% independent from political parties. A difficult thing to achieve but wouldn't it be ideal of the NGA was in a position to oversee the organisation of all such major events.
One word, yes.
But there is a necessity to bring everyone on board and not who the Shinners would like to have there.
Alright that was 23 words.
A lot of nonsense,live in the real world the Republican groups who oppose Sinn Fein don't want to be associated them. Their agenda is Sinn fein bashing so they should join the RSF[or is it real RSF]commemoration in Bundoran or arrange for 32 county,RSF,RRSF,ONH,IRSP,RNU,EirigEgos,and all the rest to organise a joint commemoration.We will continue to rem the brave men who died on Hunger strike every year and if people like you don't want to attend that's your choice.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 15, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
Some more pics I've came across from Camlough yesterday:
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294339_176509165754407_100001859733205_370752_8287318_n.jpg) (http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/185539_176509085754415_100001859733205_370749_4378262_n.jpg) (http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/228937_176509125754411_100001859733205_370750_6993912_n.jpg) (http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/293382_176507932421197_100001859733205_370712_7271337_n.jpg)
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/293657_176508012421189_100001859733205_370714_5439499_n.jpg) (http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294418_176225832449407_100001859733205_369941_1316492_n.jpg)
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/294007_176225299116127_100001859733205_369932_5265351_n.jpg)
Great pics Nally of what was a great day,lovely to hear Francis and Tom's niece sing two very moving songs.
Great pics there Nally, don't let mghu taint all Mayo people with the same brush. Afterall, we had Frank Stagg and Michael Gaughan, who died for the cause as well.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 15, 2011, 07:31:29 PM
Great pics there Nally, don't let mghu taint all Mayo people with the same brush. Afterall, we had Frank Stagg and Michael Gaughan, who died for the cause as well.
They were remembered yesterday as well,two very brave men from Mayo who died in an English jail. l
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 15, 2011, 07:31:29 PM
Great pics there Nally, don't let mghu taint all Mayo people with the same brush. Afterall, we had Frank Stagg and Michael Gaughan, who died for the cause as well.
Don't worry Farrandeelin, Not to change the subject but I have a genuine respect for Mayo in particular after we played yis in the League after Cormac McAnallen's death. The reception that met the Tyrone fans and team was just incredible. More on topic, and as you say yourself, Mayo gave us some great men like Stagg and Gaughan. Always like to see their names included so much in commemorations of the '81 Hunger Strikers.
Nally, thanks for recommending the hunger strike podcast--most engaging
Quote from: glens abu on August 15, 2011, 07:10:15 PM
A lot of nonsense,live in the real world the Republican groups who oppose Sinn Fein don't want to be associated them. Their agenda is Sinn fein bashing so they should join the RSF[or is it real RSF]commemoration in Bundoran or arrange for 32 county,RSF,RRSF,ONH,IRSP,RNU,EirigEgos,and all the rest to organise a joint commemoration.We will continue to rem the brave men who died on Hunger strike every year and if people like you don't want to attend that's your choice.
By 'we', i'm assuming you mean Sinn Fein? If it is, then your attitude is sadly typical of a lot of SF attitudes to those who do not agree. 'You' like to lump lots of people into the one corner and just call them dissidents or derogatory names like 'EirigEgos' etc. Equally the SF bashers like ONH, RSF etc call SF supporters, maybe like yourself, sheep.
I don't engage in that type of crap like you just have. I was a member of SF but left when, in my opinion, one contradiction too much occurred but didn't choose to join any of these groups because like SF, I don't believe that any of them will achieve a 32 county united socialist republic with their activities. But I bet ya you thought I was a member of one of these groups and thought, I'll have a dig at the dissident here.
My argument stands, SF control the National Hunger Strike committee and I don't care about any of the other groups attending or not, I'm speaking on my own behalf as an Irish republican who has been in jail and whose family has been in jail. When you say that 'we' will remember the hunger strikers, you are admitting/of the opinion that SF organise the rally when, in my humble opinion and not from a SF bashing or a political grouping point of view for the record, it should be party political free.
Republicans of all shades should be able to nationally commemorate the hunger strikers sacrifice and that is why there was a National Hunger Strike committee set up.
Quote from: 4father on August 15, 2011, 07:45:44 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 15, 2011, 07:10:15 PM
A lot of nonsense,live in the real world the Republican groups who oppose Sinn Fein don't want to be associated them. Their agenda is Sinn fein bashing so they should join the RSF[or is it real RSF]commemoration in Bundoran or arrange for 32 county,RSF,RRSF,ONH,IRSP,RNU,EirigEgos,and all the rest to organise a joint commemoration.We will continue to rem the brave men who died on Hunger strike every year and if people like you don't want to attend that's your choice.
By 'we', i'm assuming you mean Sinn Fein? If it is, then your attitude is sadly typical of a lot of SF attitudes to those who do not agree. 'You' like to lump lots of people into the one corner and just call them dissidents or derogatory names like 'EirigEgos' etc. Equally the SF bashers like ONH, RSF etc call SF supporters, maybe like yourself, sheep.
I don't engage in that type of crap like you just have. I was a member of SF but left when, in my opinion, one contradiction too much occurred but didn't choose to join any of these groups because like SF, I don't believe that any of them will achieve a 32 county united socialist republic with their activities. But I bet ya you thought I was a member of one of these groups and thought, I'll have a dig at the dissident here.
My argument stands, SF control the National Hunger Strike committee and I don't care about any of the other groups attending or not, I'm speaking on my own behalf as an Irish republican who has been in jail and whose family has been in jail. When you say that 'we' will remember the hunger strikers, you are admitting/of the opinion that SF organise the rally when, in my humble opinion and not from a SF bashing or a political grouping point of view for the record, it should be party political free.
Republicans of all shades should be able to nationally commemorate the hunger strikers sacrifice and that is why there was a National Hunger Strike committee set up.
That's fine and I apologise if I put you in a bracket that I shouldn't but have been listening to Sinn Fein bashing for years now from those who don't agree with their strategy.People who for no other reason than their Egos.I realise there are Republicans out there who don't agree on a matter of principle and I take you are one .I just think we have to be realistic about the commemorations and cant see those who oppose Sinn |fein sitting on any committee with them,I'm sure you will agree with that,so don't see why there cannot be separate events and then everyone can attend at least one.
Still remember where I was when I heard the news that John Lennon had been killed. True hero.
Quote from: Oraisteach on August 15, 2011, 07:40:24 PM
Nally, thanks for recommending the hunger strike podcast--most engaging
It was surprisingly balanced and mildly toned throughout which is what makes it so good I think. Makes a nice change from the usual confrontational debate format of radio interviews on such topics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h90w9ocA9O4&feature=feedrec_grec_index (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h90w9ocA9O4&feature=feedrec_grec_index)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NwW1zJtEy8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NwW1zJtEy8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S74Jvy8zgqg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S74Jvy8zgqg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIoTYZ1uhgo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIoTYZ1uhgo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EaPMlwVyaE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EaPMlwVyaE&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ7yRwftwMA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ7yRwftwMA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5sdufQ2Fy0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5sdufQ2Fy0&feature=related)
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 15, 2011, 08:56:54 PM
Still remember where I was when I heard the news that John Lennon had been killed. True hero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc)
Quote from: The Worker on August 15, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 15, 2011, 08:56:54 PM
Still remember where I was when I heard the news that John Lennon had been killed. True hero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc)
Myles, you mention you always remember where you were when John Lennon was killed. Fair enough. You forgot the date though. It was 1980, not 1981 (oops!). Though as the proud Unionist you are, I'm surprised, but nevertheless happy, to hear you regard John Lennon as a true hero.
Here's another of his songs (with a few lyrics added below):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NvWFQt2fD8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NvWFQt2fD8)
You anglo pigs and scotties
Sent to colonize the north
You wave your bloody Union Jacks
And you know what it's worth!
How dare you hold on to ransom
A people proud and free
Keep ireland for the irish
Put the english back to sea!
Sunday bloody sunday
Bloody sunday's the day!
Yes it's always bloody sunday
In the concentration camps
Keep Falls and roads free forever
From the bloody english hands
Repatriate to britain
All of you who call it home
Leave ireland to the irish
Not for London or for Rome!Here's a photo you could print and frame of your "true hero" too:(http://cedarlounge.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/john-lennon-red-mole2.jpg?w=459&h=634)
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 16, 2011, 10:27:35 AM
Myles, you mention you always remember where you were when John Lennon was killed....
TKO - Well done Nally ye boy ye!
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 15, 2011, 08:56:54 PM
Still remember where I was when I heard the news that John Lennon had been killed. True hero.
Yes he was and anti the British presense and activities in the North... Check out Luck of the Irish and Sunday Bloody Sunday.
Quote from: 4father on August 14, 2011, 11:29:04 PM
The National Hunger Strike commemoration should be free of party politics. It and the hunger strikers memory has been hijacked by SF. Often people are put off going because it is seen as a SF rally.
Should it be a fine gael event so more people will go?
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 16, 2011, 10:27:35 AM
Quote from: The Worker on August 15, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 15, 2011, 08:56:54 PM
Still remember where I was when I heard the news that John Lennon had been killed. True hero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc)
Myles, you mention you always remember where you were when John Lennon was killed. Fair enough. You forgot the date though. It was 1980, not 1981 (oops!). Though as the proud Unionist you are, I'm surprised, but nevertheless happy, to hear you regard John Lennon as a true hero.
Here's another of his songs (with a few lyrics added below):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NvWFQt2fD8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NvWFQt2fD8)
You anglo pigs and scotties
Sent to colonize the north
You wave your bloody Union Jacks
And you know what it's worth!
How dare you hold on to ransom
A people proud and free
Keep ireland for the irish
Put the english back to sea!
Sunday bloody sunday
Bloody sunday's the day!
Yes it's always bloody sunday
In the concentration camps
Keep Falls and roads free forever
From the bloody english hands
Repatriate to britain
All of you who call it home
Leave ireland to the irish
Not for London or for Rome!
Here's a photo you could print and frame of your "true hero" too:
(http://cedarlounge.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/john-lennon-red-mole2.jpg?w=459&h=634)
And his old song writing mucker penned this little ditty as well;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8)
Quote from: johnneycool on August 16, 2011, 02:12:03 PM
And his old song writing mucker penned this little ditty as well;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8)
And you trust the judgement of someone who (a) believed Heather Mills when she told him she loved him for himself; (b) thought"Mull of Kintyre" was worth recording; and (c) evidently thinks we all believe that he still retains his original chestnut-brown hair at the age of 69
I dunno which of you is the bigger eejit, but at least he's got the money not to care... :D
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 16, 2011, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 16, 2011, 02:12:03 PM
And his old song writing mucker penned this little ditty as well;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8)
And you trust the judgement of someone who (a) believed Heather Mills when she told him she loved him for himself; (b) thought"Mull of Kintyre" was worth recording; and (c) evidently thinks we all believe that he still retains his original chestnut-brown hair at the age of 69
I dunno which of you is the bigger eejit, but at least he's got the money not to care... :D
great comeback ::) :-[
http://www.sbpost.ie/agenda/hierarchy-of-hunger-57968.html
Food for thought? (excuse bad pun) ... saw this in the Sunday Business Post ...
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 16, 2011, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 16, 2011, 02:12:03 PM
And his old song writing mucker penned this little ditty as well;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8)
And you trust the judgement of someone who (a) believed Heather Mills when she told him she loved him for himself; (b) thought"Mull of Kintyre" was worth recording; and (c) evidently thinks we all believe that he still retains his original chestnut-brown hair at the age of 69
I dunno which of you is the bigger eejit, but at least he's got the money not to care... :D
You are fishing for the rise EG and no one is biting! Just one question, have you ever read the book "10 men dead" by David Beresford. It would be a good place to start for you as you don't seem to want to acknowledge the sacrifice these men made for what they believed in. You may strongly disagree on what they believed in but the sacrifice remains the same.
As for MGHU - about time your balls dropped me boy, your running around the board getting caught out for being a clueless clown and now your on the this thread disrespecting the dead heroes of Ireland.
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 16, 2011, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 16, 2011, 02:12:03 PM
And his old song writing mucker penned this little ditty as well;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8)
And you trust the judgement of someone who (a) believed Heather Mills when she told him she loved him for himself; (b) thought"Mull of Kintyre" was worth recording; and (c) evidently thinks we all believe that he still retains his original chestnut-brown hair at the age of 69
I dunno which of you is the bigger eejit, but at least he's got the money not to care... :D
Well he has an MBE, so he must be of sound mind ;)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 16, 2011, 10:06:30 PM
now your on the this thread disrespecting the dead heroes of Ireland.
Clearly a matter of opinion.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 16, 2011, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 16, 2011, 10:06:30 PM
now your on the this thread disrespecting the dead heroes of Ireland.
Clearly a matter of opinion.
And what would a child like you know about it, only what you can find on a Google search or Wikipedia. At least you had the decency to scratch off irishman from your motto.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 16, 2011, 11:20:07 PM
At least you had the decency to scratch off irishman from your motto.
After the self-appointed guardians of what a real Irishman is, decided to spout their vitriol & tell us all who are the real Irishmen and who are not.
Can I ask a serious question - I was 1 in 1981 and obv don't remember the hunger strikes and their impact. I don't really remember the tyranny of Margaret Thatcher. My question is really what the legacy of the hunger strikers has been for someone like me? Why should I call them heroes if I consider myself Irish? Because when I think of what makes me feel Irish, the hunger strikers never ever feature in my thoughts, but they are obviously held in high esteem by many.
I have incredible sympathy for their plight and the inhumanity of it by the way, but it would never motivate me to attend a commemoration event.
They're not my idea of Irish heroes either.
Quote from: Rois on August 17, 2011, 07:20:09 AM
Can I ask a serious question - I was 1 in 1981 and obv don't remember the hunger strikes and their impact. I don't really remember the tyranny of Margaret Thatcher. My question is really what the legacy of the hunger strikers has been for someone like me? Why should I call them heroes if I consider myself Irish? Because when I think of what makes me feel Irish, the hunger strikers never ever feature in my thoughts, but they are obviously held in high esteem by many.
I have incredible sympathy for their plight and the inhumanity of it by the way, but it would never motivate me to attend a commemoration event.
Well if you regard yourself as a Nationalist who aspires for a United Ireland, then think where we might be today had the Hunger Strike not occured. In Bobby Sands own words, "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children". It's easy to take that at face value as a nowadays overused catchphrase/quote which we don't think deeply about, but it it a potent comment from Sands and hints at what motivated himself and the other men. The British regarded the IRA prisoners as (to borrow a phrase), the "soft underbelly" of nationalism and as a result of that belief, the prisoners were used and abused in britains deisre to "ulsterize" nationalists by the "normalization" of their sectarian run state by reintroducing the policy of "criminalization". The prisoners were motivated to resist this. They were aware that the campaign being waged against them was as part of a wider state campaign, not just against the IRA, but against nationalism. Thanks to the Hunger Strike, attention was drawn in a massively public fashion onto the abuses by the state which led to the election of two of the strikers, plus Owen Carron, as TD's and MP's. This accelerated the process of electoral policy for republicans massively. Had it not, the peace process would not have been possible at the time it did eventually begin, nationalism would have been demoralised, republicanism would have been effectively criminalized, the sectarian state (with its sectarian police etc etc) would have been normalized. On a more human level, when you read a book like Ten Men Dead, it really gives an idea of what these men suffered through not only on their strike, but the years leading up to it. Locked up 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, lying on urine soaked matresses on the floor, excrement on the walls, waking up in the morning and lifting the maggots of their bodies and throwing them out the window to the birds, regular and brutal searches, regular and brutal beatings. It was unimaginable horror which hundreds of men lived through for what they believed was right, and which eventually led ten men to die for. Aside from their desire to fight the state, they died for you & me, and for each other, in an act of supreme selflessness. As Bobby Sands said in his Bible quote, in reply to the Prison Chaplain when questioned on the strike- "Greater love than this hath no man, than to lay down his life for his friends".
Even to those who dispise the IRA, I still suggest looking at the Hunger Strike from an objective basis by reading Ten Men Dead, by David Beresford. It just plain and simply tells what happened. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 16, 2011, 11:20:07 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 16, 2011, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 16, 2011, 10:06:30 PM
now your on the this thread disrespecting the dead heroes of Ireland.
Clearly a matter of opinion.
And what would a child like you know about it, only what you can find on a Google search or Wikipedia. At least you had the decency to scratch off irishman from your motto.
He should have replaced it with D***h**d
Quote from: Rois on August 17, 2011, 07:20:09 AM
Can I ask a serious question - I was 1 in 1981 and obv don't remember the hunger strikes and their impact. I don't really remember the tyranny of Margaret Thatcher. My question is really what the legacy of the hunger strikers has been for someone like me? Why should I call them heroes if I consider myself Irish? Because when I think of what makes me feel Irish, the hunger strikers never ever feature in my thoughts, but they are obviously held in high esteem by many.
I have incredible sympathy for their plight and the inhumanity of it by the way, but it would never motivate me to attend a commemoration event.
your post is exactly what the Hunger strikers and those that fought to break the tyranny and terror regieme wanted for your generation.
The oppression and systematic repression of the nationalist/Irish people in the north gave rise to the fight back. The civil rights marches and bloody sunday showed what the establishment and their unionist/loyalist peoples view of what our second class citizen place should be.
Nothing would have changed otherwise. That the fight back caused our plight to be globally observed which cracked the regieme and the hunger strikes brought the fight onto a higher ground - that was one of political engagement. Before then, sure the nationalist/Republicans were stopped every which way in the north.
this was the beginning of the end for that sectarian run state.
things are so much better now , that the younger generation dont even know what had went on before them.
that was the goal of at least two hunger strikers that I knew.
They died, unknowingly, to further the cause and raise the profile of Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams. Simple.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 17, 2011, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: Rois on August 17, 2011, 07:20:09 AM
Can I ask a serious question - I was 1 in 1981 and obv don't remember the hunger strikes and their impact. I don't really remember the tyranny of Margaret Thatcher. My question is really what the legacy of the hunger strikers has been for someone like me? Why should I call them heroes if I consider myself Irish? Because when I think of what makes me feel Irish, the hunger strikers never ever feature in my thoughts, but they are obviously held in high esteem by many.
I have incredible sympathy for their plight and the inhumanity of it by the way, but it would never motivate me to attend a commemoration event.
your post is exactly what the Hunger strikers and those that fought to break the tyranny and terror regieme wanted for your generation.
The oppression and systematic repression of the nationalist/Irish people in the north gave rise to the fight back. The civil rights marches and bloody sunday showed what the establishment and their unionist/loyalist peoples view of what our second class citizen place should be.
Nothing would have changed otherwise. That the fight back caused our plight to be globally observed which cracked the regieme and the hunger strikes brought the fight onto a higher ground - that was one of political engagement. Before then, sure the nationalist/Republicans were stopped every which way in the north.
this was the beginning of the end for that sectarian run state.
things are so much better now , that the younger generation dont even know what had went on before them.
that was the goal of at least two hunger strikers that I knew.
very good Lynchboy
Quote from: Trout on August 17, 2011, 12:16:03 PM
They died, unknowingly, to further the cause and raise the profile of Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams. Simple.
Away and make a few petrol bombs and fight the Brits :D
As even the Belfast Telegraph states, "no independent evidence has emerged to support O'Rawe's suggestion that the IRA leadership deliberately prolonged the hunger strike for political advantage for the movement outside. O'Rawe's cell-mate does not believe that hunger strikers were allowed to die in order to maximise electoral support".
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 17, 2011, 12:25:14 PM
As even the Belfast Telegraph states, "no independent evidence has emerged to support O'Rawe's suggestion that the IRA leadership deliberately prolonged the hunger strike for political advantage for the movement outside. O'Rawe's cell-mate does not believe that hunger strikers were allowed to die in order to maximise electoral support".
o'rawe was a attention seeking fecker wanting to make a few quid for himself.
he was a nobody in 1981 no one from inside at that time ever said to me that he was an official anything let lone a spokesperson for the prisoners.
the fmailies were in drect contact with mountain climber and british and Irish Gov's and also the various human rights and EU courts groups etc.
if there was an 'offer' this woul dhave been known.
the 'offer' there was wasnt worth a sihte and the hunger strikers themselves told their familes that this was not even close to a decent offer so they were to continue.
Only around/after the death of Mickey Devine did any serious offer come about but the 5 demands were to be met, but the HS HAD to be called off first for the british gov to save some face to appease the unionist/loyalist groups.
Exactly. And you will always get the trouts who would just love to believe the O'Rawe types.
Thanks for the replies. Lynchbhoy, yours in particular makes a lot of sense.
Quote from: Rois on August 17, 2011, 07:20:09 AM
Can I ask a serious question - I was 1 in 1981 and obv don't remember the hunger strikes and their impact. I don't really remember the tyranny of Margaret Thatcher. My question is really what the legacy of the hunger strikers has been for someone like me? Why should I call them heroes if I consider myself Irish? Because when I think of what makes me feel Irish, the hunger strikers never ever feature in my thoughts, but they are obviously held in high esteem by many.
I have incredible sympathy for their plight and the inhumanity of it by the way, but it would never motivate me to attend a commemoration event.
I think the sheer fact that you don't need to remember them says all you need to know about what they achieved. It was never meant to be popular and by definition could never be. I also don't think you need to attend a commemoration event to remember or respect them. I believe it is the absolute bedrock of the current situation in the north and will prove in time to be one of the most significant events in all of Irish history. It showed what 'so-called' ordinary men could achieve by sheer refusal to be criminalised or dominated, and that the human spirit can never be completely broken. I don't think anyone needs to be or have been an IRA supporter to understand or appreciate that. It could never have been summed up better than with 'Revenge will be the laughter of our children'.
Bobby Sands himself penned the following
The Rhythm Of TimeThere's an inner thing in every man,
Do you know this thing my friend?
It has withstood the blows of a million years,
And will do so to the end.
It was born when time did not exist,
And it grew up out of life,
It cut down evil's strangling vines,
Like a slashing searing knife.
It lit fires when fires were not,
And burnt the mind of man,
Tempering leandened hearts to steel,
From the time that time began.
It wept by the waters of Babylon,
And when all men were a loss,
It screeched in writhing agony,
And it hung bleeding from the Cross.
It died in Rome by lion and sword,
And in defiant cruel array,
When the deathly word was 'Spartacus'
Along with Appian Way.
It marched with Wat the Tyler's poor,
And frightened lord and king,
And it was emblazoned in their deathly stare,
As e'er a living thing.
It smiled in holy innocence,
Before conquistadors of old,
So meek and tame and unaware,
Of the deathly power of gold.
It burst forth through pitiful Paris streets,
And stormed the old Bastille,
And marched upon the serpent's head,
And crushed it 'neath its heel.
It died in blood on Buffalo Plains,
And starved by moons of rain,
Its heart was buried in Wounded Knee,
But it will come to rise again.
It screamed aloud by Kerry lakes,
As it was knelt upon the ground,
And it died in great defiance,
As they coldly shot it down.
It is found in every light of hope,
It knows no bounds nor space
It has risen in red and black and white,
It is there in every race.
It lies in the hearts of heroes dead,
It screams in tyrants' eyes,
It has reached the peak of mountains high,
It comes searing 'cross the skies.
It lights the dark of this prison cell,
It thunders forth its might,
It is 'the undauntable thought', my friend,
That thought that says 'I'm right! '
Damien Dempsey put the same poem to music five years ago for the 25th Anniversary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIEQmo8sUeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIEQmo8sUeo)
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 17, 2011, 03:04:39 PM
Damien Dempsey put the same poem to music five years ago for the 25th Anniversary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIEQmo8sUeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIEQmo8sUeo)
Yeah, have watched him perform it. Legend. If anyone hasn't seen this man or heard of him make it your business to find out!
Just re-wached a bit from the film 'Hunger'. Unbelievable what Michael Fassbender did to his body to play the part of Bobby Sands in his final days. This scene is so graphic it's nearly unwatchable-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2tGKNnH4Os&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2tGKNnH4Os&feature=related)
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 16, 2011, 10:27:35 AM
Quote from: The Worker on August 15, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 15, 2011, 08:56:54 PM
Still remember where I was when I heard the news that John Lennon had been killed. True hero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc)
Myles, you mention you always remember where you were when John Lennon was killed. Fair enough. You forgot the date though. It was 1980, not 1981 (oops!). Though as the proud Unionist you are, I'm surprised, but nevertheless happy, to hear you regard John Lennon as a true hero.
Here's another of his songs (with a few lyrics added below):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NvWFQt2fD8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NvWFQt2fD8)
You anglo pigs and scotties
Sent to colonize the north
You wave your bloody Union Jacks
And you know what it's worth!
How dare you hold on to ransom
A people proud and free
Keep ireland for the irish
Put the english back to sea!
Sunday bloody sunday
Bloody sunday's the day!
Yes it's always bloody sunday
In the concentration camps
Keep Falls and roads free forever
From the bloody english hands
Repatriate to britain
All of you who call it home
Leave ireland to the irish
Not for London or for Rome!
Here's a photo you could print and frame of your "true hero" too:
(http://cedarlounge.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/john-lennon-red-mole2.jpg?w=459&h=634)
Fair cop on the date. I was in my 1st year at university, 1980-81, and can remember who told me and where I was, but obviously it was later in the academic year than I thought!
What did the hunger strikers achieve?
1. They laid the foundations that enabled SF to go on and become the largest nationalist party, which led to that party entering the parliament they once despised to help the DUP administer British rule in the north eastern part of this island;
2. they ensured for themselves a place in the pantheon of republican heroes for evermore, which some might see as worth sacrificing their life for;
3. er...that's it.
When this island is reunited politically, in 50 or 60 years time, it will be despite the best efforts of physical force Irish republicans not because of them. Fanatics, whether they be suicide bombers or hunger strikers, make poor nation builders.
you are entitled to your opinion myles.
however I think Rois and people of her generation prove what was 'won'.
This was not coming any other way.
Furthermore, yes sf did benefit out of this, but this was not done for sf's benefit. they didnt really exist a year or so before this.
sdlp were useless and toothless, so a representative body was needed. sdlp's subsequent slide heading for the exit door even today - proves this.
Myles, your analysis is based on the fact that you assume the hunger strike was about a 32 county republic. It wasn't.
It was specifically about the granting of political status to the republican prisoners and breaking Thatcher's criminalisation policy and the inhumanity of the jails. It succeeded.
Like most of what the provos were about, it was also more to do with defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination than running down to sit in good old leinster house where there are more criminals per square yard than were ever in the h-blocks. It also succeeded in that respect.
In doing so it has given future generations in the north the freedom to express and live their culture to the full on an equal basis. There is no going back.
Quote from: sheamy on August 18, 2011, 11:33:33 AM
Myles, your analysis is based on the fact that you assume the hunger strike was about a 32 county republic. It wasn't.
It was specifically about the granting of political status to the republican prisoners and breaking Thatcher's criminalisation policy and the inhumanity of the jails. It succeeded.
Like most of what the provos were about, it was also more to do with defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination than running down to sit in good old leinster house where there are more criminals per square yard than were ever in the h-blocks. It also succeeded in that respect.
In doing so it has given future generations in the north the freedom to express and live their culture to the full on an equal basis. There is no going back.
No, I'm assuming that the provos were about a 32 county republic. The hunger strikers were only a small part of what was a 25 year campaign. And if the provos were about 'defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination', then they needn't have bothered. Having been shamed into action, the British government had already started initiating change in the early 1970s to sweep away the inequalities brought about by 50 years of 1 party rule. Electoral reform, housing reform (the Housing Executive was set up in 1971), and equality legislation were all in place within two or three years of the troubles starting. Power sharing was on offer after Sunningdale, though it was rejected by the two groups (the provos and the DUP) who run the Assembly today under a system of mandatory coalition, which is just power sharing for people who like big words. The reason the provos rejected it then was because their agenda was all about Brits out and a 32 county Ireland. The reason they accepted it after the Belfast Agreement was because they realised that their 'long war' was not going to achieve its objectives and that a leading role in the administration of the north was as much as they could hope for. Doh!
lying on urine soaked matresses on the floor, excrement on the walls, waking[/quote]
Don't want to sound heartless, but that is what they decided to do. The British did not do that to them. And i'm one who had met Bobby, though didn't really know him, he was a friend of my brothers once.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 18, 2011, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 18, 2011, 11:33:33 AM
Myles, your analysis is based on the fact that you assume the hunger strike was about a 32 county republic. It wasn't.
It was specifically about the granting of political status to the republican prisoners and breaking Thatcher's criminalisation policy and the inhumanity of the jails. It succeeded.
Like most of what the provos were about, it was also more to do with defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination than running down to sit in good old leinster house where there are more criminals per square yard than were ever in the h-blocks. It also succeeded in that respect.
In doing so it has given future generations in the north the freedom to express and live their culture to the full on an equal basis. There is no going back.
No, I'm assuming that the provos were about a 32 county republic. The hunger strikers were only a small part of what was a 25 year campaign. And if the provos were about 'defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination', then they needn't have bothered. Having been shamed into action, the British government had already started initiating change in the early 1970s to sweep away the inequalities brought about by 50 years of 1 party rule. Electoral reform, housing reform (the Housing Executive was set up in 1971), and equality legislation were all in place within two or three years of the troubles starting. Power sharing was on offer after Sunningdale, though it was rejected by the two groups (the provos and the DUP) who run the Assembly today under a system of mandatory coalition, which is just power sharing for people who like big words. The reason the provos rejected it then was because their agenda was all about Brits out and a 32 county Ireland. The reason they accepted it after the Belfast Agreement was because they realised that their 'long war' was not going to achieve its objectives and that a leading role in the administration of the north was as much as they could hope for. Doh!
Proves my point. The hunger strike was not confined to provos. Therefore your analysis doesn't stack up. Myles, it was about political status for republican prisoners. Not just pira prisoners. It was about the right for a republican voice to be heard amongst everyone elses in the north on an equal basis. That might seem like small beer to you, but it is not. Some reform was on the way, I am dubious. I would argue the 1947 education act did more than most to change things.
Tell me this, how could any republican organisation abandoned by the majority of the so-called existing republic do anything else other than look to protect its own local people first and national blah de blah second? That's what it had to do and that's what it did.
The psychological victory of the hunger strikes has meant more to the people of the north than you or even most of them will ever realise.
Quote from: sheamy on August 19, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 18, 2011, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 18, 2011, 11:33:33 AM
Myles, your analysis is based on the fact that you assume the hunger strike was about a 32 county republic. It wasn't.
It was specifically about the granting of political status to the republican prisoners and breaking Thatcher's criminalisation policy and the inhumanity of the jails. It succeeded.
Like most of what the provos were about, it was also more to do with defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination than running down to sit in good old leinster house where there are more criminals per square yard than were ever in the h-blocks. It also succeeded in that respect.
In doing so it has given future generations in the north the freedom to express and live their culture to the full on an equal basis. There is no going back.
No, I'm assuming that the provos were about a 32 county republic. The hunger strikers were only a small part of what was a 25 year campaign. And if the provos were about 'defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination', then they needn't have bothered. Having been shamed into action, the British government had already started initiating change in the early 1970s to sweep away the inequalities brought about by 50 years of 1 party rule. Electoral reform, housing reform (the Housing Executive was set up in 1971), and equality legislation were all in place within two or three years of the troubles starting. Power sharing was on offer after Sunningdale, though it was rejected by the two groups (the provos and the DUP) who run the Assembly today under a system of mandatory coalition, which is just power sharing for people who like big words. The reason the provos rejected it then was because their agenda was all about Brits out and a 32 county Ireland. The reason they accepted it after the Belfast Agreement was because they realised that their 'long war' was not going to achieve its objectives and that a leading role in the administration of the north was as much as they could hope for. Doh!
Proves my point. The hunger strike was not confined to provos. Therefore your analysis doesn't stack up. Myles, it was about political status for republican prisoners. Not just pira prisoners. It was about the right for a republican voice to be heard amongst everyone elses in the north on an equal basis. That might seem like small beer to you, but it is not. Some reform was on the way, I am dubious. I would argue the 1947 education act did more than most to change things.
Tell me this, how could any republican organisation abandoned by the majority of the so-called existing republic do anything else other than look to protect its own local people first and national blah de blah second? That's what it had to do and that's what it did.
The psychological victory of the hunger strikes has meant more to the people of the north than you or even most of them will ever realise.
If you mean that it had no popular support from the vast majority of Irish people, we're in agreement on that one.
Republican revisionists now seem to be trying to claim that their 'armed struggle' was never about forcing the British out and reuniting the country, but about bringing down the unionist dominated establishment. In reality, they're simply trying to cover up the fact that their strategy failed and - worse - that their leaders are now doing exactly what they would've killed others for in the very recent past. Do you think the hunger strikers would've starved themselves to death if they'd known that the 'long war' would end with a power sharing executive with the DUP within a 6 county assembly?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article4493964.ece
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 21, 2011, 07:13:40 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 19, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 18, 2011, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 18, 2011, 11:33:33 AM
Myles, your analysis is based on the fact that you assume the hunger strike was about a 32 county republic. It wasn't.
It was specifically about the granting of political status to the republican prisoners and breaking Thatcher's criminalisation policy and the inhumanity of the jails. It succeeded.
Like most of what the provos were about, it was also more to do with defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination than running down to sit in good old leinster house where there are more criminals per square yard than were ever in the h-blocks. It also succeeded in that respect.
In doing so it has given future generations in the north the freedom to express and live their culture to the full on an equal basis. There is no going back.
No, I'm assuming that the provos were about a 32 county republic. The hunger strikers were only a small part of what was a 25 year campaign. And if the provos were about 'defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination', then they needn't have bothered. Having been shamed into action, the British government had already started initiating change in the early 1970s to sweep away the inequalities brought about by 50 years of 1 party rule. Electoral reform, housing reform (the Housing Executive was set up in 1971), and equality legislation were all in place within two or three years of the troubles starting. Power sharing was on offer after Sunningdale, though it was rejected by the two groups (the provos and the DUP) who run the Assembly today under a system of mandatory coalition, which is just power sharing for people who like big words. The reason the provos rejected it then was because their agenda was all about Brits out and a 32 county Ireland. The reason they accepted it after the Belfast Agreement was because they realised that their 'long war' was not going to achieve its objectives and that a leading role in the administration of the north was as much as they could hope for. Doh!
Proves my point. The hunger strike was not confined to provos. Therefore your analysis doesn't stack up. Myles, it was about political status for republican prisoners. Not just pira prisoners. It was about the right for a republican voice to be heard amongst everyone elses in the north on an equal basis. That might seem like small beer to you, but it is not. Some reform was on the way, I am dubious. I would argue the 1947 education act did more than most to change things.
Tell me this, how could any republican organisation abandoned by the majority of the so-called existing republic do anything else other than look to protect its own local people first and national blah de blah second? That's what it had to do and that's what it did.
The psychological victory of the hunger strikes has meant more to the people of the north than you or even most of them will ever realise.
If you mean that it had no popular support from the vast majority of Irish people, we're in agreement on that one.
Republican revisionists now seem to be trying to claim that their 'armed struggle' was never about forcing the British out and reuniting the country, but about bringing down the unionist dominated establishment. In reality, they're simply trying to cover up the fact that their strategy failed and - worse - that their leaders are now doing exactly what they would've killed others for in the very recent past. Do you think the hunger strikers would've starved themselves to death if they'd known that the 'long war' would end with a power sharing executive with the DUP within a 6 county assembly?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article4493964.ece
The article will be ignored and Clarke will be called all sorts of traitors to Ireland.
This was in the Sunday Times today by Clarke.
Tragic detour that ended in compromise
'If that is the case, it's a pity they asked so many people to go out and die for a united Ireland," said Anthony McIntyre as we discussed a recent book, The Provisional IRA, written by his fellow inmate, the former republican prisoner Tommy McKearney.
Brutally simplified, McKearney's conclusion was that the IRA succeeded in dismantling the "Orange state", the system built around unionist majority rule, and reforming Northern Ireland. This may be "the end of the journey", as he suggests, even though the terminus was not the socialist republic they originally intended.
McKearney dismisses dissident republicans as making a "fetish of the use of arms". He accuses them of having no policy "apart from repeating mantras about betrayal and the right of the Irish people". They are, he reckons, "doomed to obscurity".
McIntyre is a prime illustration of the waste involved in the IRA campaign. Witty, intelligent and with a high degree of self-knowledge, he gained a doctorate after leaving prison. He is an able man, determined and of strong character, and you can imagine him going far in many careers. He is also a former IRA commander, who spent long years in jail for the murder of two loyalists. That still hangs over him. For instance, he is unable to enter the US, though he has worked for Boston College as a researcher on its oral archive of Troubles participants. He describes McKearney as "a seasoned volunteer with considerable military and political experience".
In a concluding chapter, McKearney charts out his vision for a "New Republic and a Relevant Republicanism", urging republicans to work with the border and postpone its removal. "Partition matters," he writes, "but the urgency of its elimination is less important than the ability we now possess, impossible during the era of the Orange state, to develop crosssectarian, working-class solidarities while putting differences on the national question to one side."
He also says the once all-important "national question" was "defused" by the Good Friday agreement.
McIntyre, who broadly endorses McKearney's analysis, can be forgiven for wishing that someone had told him this a few years earlier. If the Provisional IRA had originally announced that its intention was to defuse the national question and democratise Northern Ireland, rather than remove the border, fewer people would have been prepared to kill and die for it. It is impossible to imagine 10 men starving themselves to death for power-sharing, equal opportunity and cross-border bodies.
There were clearly quicker ways to reach the IRA's final destination. Not only that, there are persuasive arguments that the IRA's terrorist campaign held back rather than hastened its achievements. The old Stormont, the embodiment of what McKearney calls the Orange state, fell after Bloody Sunday. Its removal preceded a period of heavy IRA recruitment and escalating violence. But the collapse wasn't primarily caused by IRA pressure. It occurred when the British state intervened to take security powers away from the unionist government in an attempt to stabilise the situation.
The IRA campaign peaked in that year of 1972. After that, it fought for the removal of British troops as a precursor to the ending of British rule. But it was obvious that the troops were there to contain the terrorist campaign and, as in fact happened, would leave once it was over. Attempts at reform on a similar scale to the Good Friday agreement were stymied by IRA violence, and the unionist extremism which it fed. The broad terms on which the conflict ended were rejected at earlier stages by the IRA. For most of its campaign it insisted on a British withdrawal, preferably within the lifetime of a parliament.
So although, as McKearney argues, the IRA did shape events to some extent, they were moulded by events to a far greater degree. It had to modify ideology to match what was feasible. McKearney quotes Marx as saying: "We develop new principles for the world out of the world's own principles." It doesn't have the same dialectical ring, but essentially Marx was urging the revolutionaries of 1843 to be flexible and not shut themselves off from reality.
In the end, the IRA did face reality and show flexibility, though a lot of blood was shed as it navigated a long learning curve. Some of its surviving early leaders, people who joined in the earliest days when its demands were highest, now sit in Stormont and in the Dail. Former bombers are members of the Northern Ireland policing board. These people bowed to necessity, wiped the blood from their hands, and accepted that their long journey through physical force brought them to a quite different destination than they had intended.
It's undeniable that 30 years of death, imprisonment and suffering was not the shortest route to this outcome, but rather a tragic detour.
At the same time, though, the present compromise may be the softest possible landing and the best available terminus for the decades, even centuries, of violence which went before.
Similar struggles to that of physical force Irish republicanism resulted in total victory. One example is Crete, which endured centuries of guerrilla warfare against the Venetians and then the Turks. The Turkish occupation lasted 250 years.
"Freedom or Death" was the slogan of the Crete rebels, who had a Pádraig Pearse-like ideology of blood sacrifice. Nikos Kazantzakis, a Cretan writer best known as the author of Zorba the Greek, twisted the slogan for the title of his novel to Freedom and Death.
About half of the population were Muslim. The Turkish pashas lived like the Anglo-Irish gentry. Ordinary Muslims and Christians found any attempt at accommodation stymied by a conflict sanctified by religious hatred.
One example from history, not fiction, is Crete's Arkadi monastery, a centre of the resistance during the uprising of 1866. It was packed with 325 men and 639 women and children when Gabriel Marinakis, the abbot and leader of the local resistance committee, decided it was preferable to sacrifice the population rather than accede to Turkish demands for surrender. All of the gunpowder and explosives in the monastery were gathered in a wine cellar and, as the Turks advanced in overwhelming force, the people retreated into the powder store. At the last moment, Konstantine Giaboudakis, a hero to this day, detonated the store. Some 864 Greeks and 1,500 Turks died in the battle and explosion.
Crete is pock-marked with such massacre sites, creating a blood debt which made compromise impossible. Turks who had lived in Crete for generations eventually left as part of an exchange of population and, like the Greeks who were shipped out of Turkey to replace them, often pined for their homeland. Greek families who had converted to Islam reverted to Christianity, and nobody mentions it now. One of the last Turkish villages was turned into a leper colony.
Upon consideration, our awkward compromise, in which nobody achieved quite what they initially wanted, does not seem so bad by comparison.
If that's an article by Liam Clarke, then don't waste 10 mins of your life and ignore the crass innacura ies that this idiot continually pukes up!
As for Myles assertions that the HS wouldnt have wanted things to turn out this way - well again you are wrong as this is the kind of status ( freedom of choice with no oppression and persecution a la yesteryear) that they wanted , not just re-unification ( they saw re-unification as the short cut to destroying the oppression and persecution in the 6 county failed statelet) , this came from a few ex prisoner / Hunger Strikers that I knew.... Ya can't really argue against that mylsey, no matter how much this truth hurts you and your attempts at distorting truth and yer revisionism !!!
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 21, 2011, 07:13:40 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 19, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 18, 2011, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 18, 2011, 11:33:33 AM
Myles, your analysis is based on the fact that you assume the hunger strike was about a 32 county republic. It wasn't.
It was specifically about the granting of political status to the republican prisoners and breaking Thatcher's criminalisation policy and the inhumanity of the jails. It succeeded.
Like most of what the provos were about, it was also more to do with defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination than running down to sit in good old leinster house where there are more criminals per square yard than were ever in the h-blocks. It also succeeded in that respect.
In doing so it has given future generations in the north the freedom to express and live their culture to the full on an equal basis. There is no going back.
No, I'm assuming that the provos were about a 32 county republic. The hunger strikers were only a small part of what was a 25 year campaign. And if the provos were about 'defeating the old unionism regime of oppression and domination', then they needn't have bothered. Having been shamed into action, the British government had already started initiating change in the early 1970s to sweep away the inequalities brought about by 50 years of 1 party rule. Electoral reform, housing reform (the Housing Executive was set up in 1971), and equality legislation were all in place within two or three years of the troubles starting. Power sharing was on offer after Sunningdale, though it was rejected by the two groups (the provos and the DUP) who run the Assembly today under a system of mandatory coalition, which is just power sharing for people who like big words. The reason the provos rejected it then was because their agenda was all about Brits out and a 32 county Ireland. The reason they accepted it after the Belfast Agreement was because they realised that their 'long war' was not going to achieve its objectives and that a leading role in the administration of the north was as much as they could hope for. Doh!
Proves my point. The hunger strike was not confined to provos. Therefore your analysis doesn't stack up. Myles, it was about political status for republican prisoners. Not just pira prisoners. It was about the right for a republican voice to be heard amongst everyone elses in the north on an equal basis. That might seem like small beer to you, but it is not. Some reform was on the way, I am dubious. I would argue the 1947 education act did more than most to change things.
Tell me this, how could any republican organisation abandoned by the majority of the so-called existing republic do anything else other than look to protect its own local people first and national blah de blah second? That's what it had to do and that's what it did.
The psychological victory of the hunger strikes has meant more to the people of the north than you or even most of them will ever realise.
If you mean that it had no popular support from the vast majority of Irish people, we're in agreement on that one.
Republican revisionists now seem to be trying to claim that their 'armed struggle' was never about forcing the British out and reuniting the country, but about bringing down the unionist dominated establishment. In reality, they're simply trying to cover up the fact that their strategy failed and - worse - that their leaders are now doing exactly what they would've killed others for in the very recent past. Do you think the hunger strikers would've starved themselves to death if they'd known that the 'long war' would end with a power sharing executive with the DUP within a 6 county assembly?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article4493964.ece
Could have phrased that better but no, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that it was the nationalist people of the north whose plight was blissfully and willingly neglected. My point was that with such a regime and history to overcome that in many people's eyes the primary target was to defeat the unionist dominated regime.
Many many people joined the republican movement so that their children and children's children wouldn't have to grow up in the same oppressive second class citizen society. The question of how is open to question. Call that revisionist if you want. I'd call it revolutionary political struggle based on realism. Fact is it worked and is working.
Do I think Bobby Sands would have agreed to the current situation if offered in 1981? Of course I don't. I also reiterate again that the hunger strikes were solely about political demands in prisons, not about getting to the point where you could paint red post boxes green, maintain a corrupt elite, and end up taking orders from German financiers, a fact which you seem determined to ignore.
Would he be supportive of the current track? We'll never know but what we do know is that many of his closest colleagues did and do. Of course, some don't. That's the nature of people.
Perhaps Myles might like to inform us if he thinks the men of 1916, the war of independence, or the civil war would have settled for what they eventually ended up with. A statelet run by gombeen men, in financial thrall to England, which eventually gained a measure of independence as members of the European Community, but through greed and corruption ended up as the pawn of German Financiers
Quote from: Pangurban on August 21, 2011, 08:59:46 PM
Perhaps Myles might like to inform us if he thinks the men of 1916, the war of independence, or the civil war would have settled for what they eventually ended up with. A statelet run by gombeen men, in financial thrall to England, which eventually gained a measure of independence as members of the European Community, but through greed and corruption ended up as the pawn of German Financiers
I think that particular group of physical force republicans were wrong too and history has proven that to be the case. They set us on the course which resulted in Ireland being partitioned: how was that any sort of praiseworthy achievement? Political violence has never been the answer to the 'Irish question'. It took the provos 25 years to realise that. There are still some republicans who have yet to grasp the fact.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 21, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on August 21, 2011, 08:59:46 PM
Perhaps Myles might like to inform us if he thinks the men of 1916, the war of independence, or the civil war would have settled for what they eventually ended up with. A statelet run by gombeen men, in financial thrall to England, which eventually gained a measure of independence as members of the European Community, but through greed and corruption ended up as the pawn of German Financiers
I think that particular group of physical force republicans were wrong too and history has proven that to be the case. They set us on the course which resulted in Ireland being partitioned: how was that any sort of praiseworthy achievement? Political violence has never been the answer to the 'Irish question'. It took the provos 25 years to realise that. There are still some republicans who have yet to grasp the fact.
whoosh- its straight over your head.
though you dont want to acknowledge the truth.
Those chaps achieved what they were looking for. That young Rois hasnt a notion of what went before and she is only worried about money, work, boys, a dodgy car and Tyrone being sihte too often this summer proves that our people are living in a 'normal' world now, noe that was not afforded to them pre GFA and indeed pre 1968.
While it obv galls you to admit this, you know its the truth of the matter. your squirming shows this !
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 22, 2011, 09:39:31 AM
Those chaps achieved what they were looking for. That young Rois hasnt a notion of what went before and she is only worried about money, work, boys, a dodgy car and Tyrone being sihte too often this summer proves that our people are living in a 'normal' world now, noe that was not afforded to them pre GFA and indeed pre 1968.
While it obv galls you to admit this, you know its the truth of the matter. your squirming shows this !
:D
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Thanks
http://youtu.be/CVP0GcjXxaA (http://youtu.be/CVP0GcjXxaA)
Video highlights of Camlough. Unbelievable crowds.
I watched through a good bit of that video there Nally Stand, to educate myself a bit better about who would attend that type of event. Now I half wish I was at it! Those re-enactments were a very good idea. People there of all ages and from all walks of life. There appeared to be an awful lot of organisation involved, and whilst Sinn Fein had an obvious footprint on it, I can see why people would argue that it isn't an SF event but rather a historical commemoration that belongs to everyone.
The IRSP organisied one yesterday on the Falls Rd,also attended by those who would not go to the one in Camlough because of Sinn Fein involvement.I am sure Trout and his mates were at it.
Quote from: Rois on August 22, 2011, 01:15:22 PM
I watched through a good bit of that video there Nally Stand, to educate myself a bit better about who would attend that type of event. Now I half wish I was at it! Those re-enactments were a very good idea. People there of all ages and from all walks of life. There appeared to be an awful lot of organisation involved, and whilst Sinn Fein had an obvious footprint on it, I can see why people would argue that it isn't an SF event but rather a historical commemoration that belongs to everyone.
Always next year Rois! lol Aye the re-enactments were definitely a very good idea (the acting on the other hand ...lol)
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 22, 2011, 01:53:23 PM
Quote from: Rois on August 22, 2011, 01:15:22 PM
I watched through a good bit of that video there Nally Stand, to educate myself a bit better about who would attend that type of event. Now I half wish I was at it! Those re-enactments were a very good idea. People there of all ages and from all walks of life. There appeared to be an awful lot of organisation involved, and whilst Sinn Fein had an obvious footprint on it, I can see why people would argue that it isn't an SF event but rather a historical commemoration that belongs to everyone.
Always next year Rois! lol Aye the re-enactments were definitely a very good idea (the acting on the other hand ...lol)
Yeah - particularly liked the guy who was laughing away when he was getting interrogated.
Quote from: Rois on August 22, 2011, 01:56:08 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 22, 2011, 01:53:23 PM
Quote from: Rois on August 22, 2011, 01:15:22 PM
I watched through a good bit of that video there Nally Stand, to educate myself a bit better about who would attend that type of event. Now I half wish I was at it! Those re-enactments were a very good idea. People there of all ages and from all walks of life. There appeared to be an awful lot of organisation involved, and whilst Sinn Fein had an obvious footprint on it, I can see why people would argue that it isn't an SF event but rather a historical commemoration that belongs to everyone.
Always next year Rois! lol Aye the re-enactments were definitely a very good idea (the acting on the other hand ...lol)
Yeah - particularly liked the guy who was laughing away when he was getting interrogated.
Aye I think if I were doing that video up, I'd have left that clip on the cutting room floor :D
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 22, 2011, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 21, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on August 21, 2011, 08:59:46 PM
Perhaps Myles might like to inform us if he thinks the men of 1916, the war of independence, or the civil war would have settled for what they eventually ended up with. A statelet run by gombeen men, in financial thrall to England, which eventually gained a measure of independence as members of the European Community, but through greed and corruption ended up as the pawn of German Financiers
I think that particular group of physical force republicans were wrong too and history has proven that to be the case. They set us on the course which resulted in Ireland being partitioned: how was that any sort of praiseworthy achievement? Political violence has never been the answer to the 'Irish question'. It took the provos 25 years to realise that. There are still some republicans who have yet to grasp the fact.
whoosh- its straight over your head.
though you dont want to acknowledge the truth.
Those chaps achieved what they were looking for. That young Rois hasnt a notion of what went before and she is only worried about money, work, boys, a dodgy car and Tyrone being sihte too often this summer proves that our people are living in a 'normal' world now, noe that was not afforded to them pre GFA and indeed pre 1968.
While it obv galls you to admit this, you know its the truth of the matter. your squirming shows this !
The normality that people like Rois enjoy is due in no small measure to the fact that the IRA ended its campaign of violence. What did this campaign achieve? Did it end with 'Brits Out'? Nope, it ended with an internal partitionist settlement. It ended with NI still very much a part of the UK, with those who once vowed to drive the Brits out now helping them administer the state. Yet now they tell us that Brits Out was never really the goal, it was all about sorting out the orange state. :D Did the IRA campaign dismantle this unionist dominated establishment? Nope, this was being done even as the IRA was being formed. Undoubtedly the murder and mayhem that was going hastened the end of the unionist one party state, but then you may as well say that the UDA and the UVF played as big a role as the provos. For what died the sons of Roisin? For nothing is the answer.
Myles, yet again you refuse to discuss the topic of this thread - the hunger strikes and their legacy.
You also incorrectly associate the ending of the old stormont regime with the ending of the orange state. Consider what constituted the orange state and the dates they were removed or their fundamental nature changed. RUC and UDR (both wedded to loyalist paramilitaries), bigoted local councils and civil service.
Can you explain to me how these would have been either disbanded or reformed to the extent they are now after the ending of the old Gerry Fitt outfit? Also, perhaps expand who or what would have driven it. Throw in some timescales when you're at it.
Returning to the topic of this thread, the experience of the hunger strikes (tragic as it was) directly gave rise to the ending of many of the above and gave republicans an equal voice at the very top table.
Through the hunger strikes the British Government tried to defeat and demoralise republicans and nationalists through the torture and degradation of the prisoners. If Thatcher's goal was to end the republican voice in the north by breaking the prisoners, I'd say she didn't do a great job. Ulsterisation, Normalisation and Criminalisation doesn't look too clever now.
There is merit in what you say about the pitfalls of physical force republicanism. You mention 'Brits Out'. Well, the Brits have long since stated no selfish and strategic interest in the north. They didn't get that notion out walking the dog of an evening. The late David Ervine also asked 'who are these Brits that you want out?'. It's a good question and you should think about that.
I'd also be interested in your solutions. We've not heard many from you. Can I be so bold to assume that you are now are in agreement with the current Sinn Fein leadership even if you disagree with their past? :D
Quote from: sheamy on August 22, 2011, 07:53:49 PM
Myles, yet again you refuse to discuss the topic of this thread - the hunger strikes and their legacy.
You also incorrectly associate the ending of the old stormont regime with the ending of the orange state. Consider what constituted the orange state and the dates they were removed or their fundamental nature changed. RUC and UDR (both wedded to loyalist paramilitaries), bigoted local councils and civil service.
Can you explain to me how these would have been either disbanded or reformed to the extent they are now after the ending of the old Gerry Fitt outfit? Also, perhaps expand who or what would have driven it. Throw in some timescales when you're at it.
Returning to the topic of this thread, the experience of the hunger strikes (tragic as it was) directly gave rise to the ending of many of the above and gave republicans an equal voice at the very top table.
Through the hunger strikes the British Government tried to defeat and demoralise republicans and nationalists through the torture and degradation of the prisoners. If Thatcher's goal was to end the republican voice in the north by breaking the prisoners, I'd say she didn't do a great job. Ulsterisation, Normalisation and Criminalisation doesn't look too clever now.
There is merit in what you say about the pitfalls of physical force republicanism. You mention 'Brits Out'. Well, the Brits have long since stated no selfish and strategic interest in the north. They didn't get that notion out walking the dog of an evening. The late David Ervine also asked 'who are these Brits that you want out?'. It's a good question and you should think about that.
I'd also be interested in your solutions. We've not heard many from you. Can I be so bold to assume that you are now are in agreement with the current Sinn Fein leadership even if you disagree with their past? :D
To answer your last question first: I am in agreement with SF's current policy, but most commentators would agree that SF have, in fact, stolen the ground out from under the SDLP. I welcome the fact that SF have now joined mainstream, moderate politics: I just wish it hadn't taken them many years and thousands of blighted lives to get there. You quote David Ervine at me, but really it's Irish republicans who need to answer his question. Ervine's mentor, Gusty Spence, used to say that when he heard republicans talk about 'brits out', he took it that they meant 'Gusty out'. That's something republicans have never accepted, that the unionist / loyalist people saw the IRA's campaign as being directed at them. How do you convince people that their interests can be protected in an independent Ireland, when all they see is a gun being pointed in their direction? Other questions: the reform of the state was well under way by the early 70s. Housing reform, electoral reform and equality legislation were all either already in place or on the way. The IRA can't claim credit for any of this. The UDR replaced the B specials. Had there been no 'armed struggle' going on at the time, it is doubtful if the UDR would have been formed at all. Likewise, the RUC and the Special Branch grew to the size they did simply because of the IRA's campaign. Look how quickly and how drastically the PSNI has been shrunk in a time of peace. Would the British have wanted to pay 20,000 armed peelers and local soldiers to stand around directing traffic? The hunger strikes weren't just about the prison issue, as you point out yourself. The hungers strikers saw themselves very much in the front line of the 'struggle'. My point all along in this thread has been this: if those young men, and many others like them, had thought for a moment that they were giving up their lives for what was eventually achieved - an internal, partitionist administration underwritten by the principle of consent - would they have thought their sacrifice was worth it? Of course they wouldn't. Their lives were thrown away. Others had their lives ended or blighted by the same 'armed struggle'. What a waste.
Sorry Myles, but you assertions and blinkered opinions are just plain wrong. The violent retaliation played a huge part in winning the freedom experienced by everyone Inc Rois etc now.
You need to look at this a bit more objectively. You obv didn't know any republicans or their motives. No surprise there. Your mask slipped a long time ago !!!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 22, 2011, 09:26:17 PM
Sorry Myles, but you assertions and blinkered opinions are just plain wrong. The violent retaliation played a huge part in winning the freedom experienced by everyone Inc Rois etc now.
You need to look at this a bit more objectively. You obv didn't know any republicans or their motives. No surprise there. Your mask slipped a long time ago !!!
Terrific post. Completely demolished my argument. Especially that bit about the mask.
::)
There was no argument to counteract!
Your subjective opinions are fantasy and neither factual or true!
The H-Block Hospital Visit
Mickey Devine was the last of the hunger strikers to die. His 30th anniversary was on Saturday. He left us after sixty-six days on hunger strike.
I remember meeting Mickey three weeks before he died when I visited the H-Block prison hospital on Wednesday July 29th along with Owen Carron, Bobby's election agent and now Fermanagh South Tyrone candidate, and Seamus Ruddy of the IRSP.
A week later – August 8th - An Phoblacht carried an article by me in which I reflected on that visit. In the intervening days Kevin Lynch and Kieran Doherty died, and on the day the article was published Tom McElwee died.
In memory of those inside and outside the prison who died during that tragic summer I am posting that article.
H-Block Visit
Brendan McFarlane, Tom McElwee, Laurence McKeown, Matt Devlin, Pat McGeown, Paddy Quinn and Mickey Devine were assembled in the canteen of the prison hospital when Owen Carron, Séamus Ruddy and I arrived.
Paddy Quinn was in a wheelchair and sat with the others around two tables which had been pushed together in the centre of the room.
Brendan, Pat McGeown and Matt had been taken from their cells to the prison hospital while the others, dressed in prison-issue pyjamas and dressing gowns had been brought from their cells in the prison hospital itself. Kevin Lynch and Kieran Doherty could not attend the meeting, but Brendan McFarlane made arrangements for us to see them later.
It had taken us an hour to pass through the various security checks from the main gate of Long Kesh to the prison hospital, as the screws, sullenly resentful of our presence, quizzed our escort and driver.
I had mixed feelings going into the prison, though it held not secrets or surprises, for I had been a reluctant resident there on a number of occasions in 1972.
Also, I knew both Kieran Doherty and Pat McGeown, two of the hunger-strikers, and Brendan McFarlane, O/C of the Blocks, and had written to or read notes from, most of the other hunger-strikers. No, apart from a slight feeling of déjà vue, the prison itself, and its permanent prisoners, the screws and armed British soldiers, didn't disturb me, tho', in its grey hostility, Long Kesh is a forbidding and intimidating place.
It was a feeling of apprehension about the physical state of the hunger-strikers, and a fear that our arrival would falsely raise their hopes which disturbed me, as Owen, Séamus and I were introduced to the boys.
They all looked rough, prison-pale skin stretched across young skull-like faces, legs and arms indescribably thin, eyes with that penetrating look which I have often noticed among fellow prisoners in the past, and which Bobby Sands has described as 'that awful stare of the pierced or glazed eyes, the tell-tale sign of the rigours of torture'. Someone else wrote that our eyes are the windows of our souls. The eyes of the blanket men, the hunger-strikers, are the unshuttered, unveiled, curtainless windows through which one can see reflections of the intense cruelties they have endured.
As they smiled across the table at us, all my fears and apprehensions vanished when Big Tom (McElwee) offered me a just of spring water.
"Ar mhaith leat deoc uisce?"
"Ba mhaith", arsa mise.
"Lean ar aghaidh, tá á lan uisce san ait seo," duit sé, grinning at me.
There were a number of small while jugs of spring water, and two or three blue plastic mugs of ordinary tap water, on the table. The lads sat, as pensively as wine tasters, as I took a delicate swig from one of the white jugs.
"Cad é a sileann tú faol sin?"
I took a longer slug, "Hold on," said big Tom, "It costs the British government a lot of money for that stuff."
The screw at the large peep hole at the end of the canteen, peered in a the outburst of laughter which follow Tom's slagging. His appearance was greeted with bantering, in both Irish and English among the boys. Otherwise the screws were ignored and spoken to, politely, only when necessary.
We were left along again and then went on to discuss the hunger-strike, the campaign outside, the British government's position and the hunger-strikers' personal attitude to events.
We outlined the clergymen's proposal to them. The lads were fully aware of all developments, but we persisted in detailing in a factual and harsh manner, everything which had happened over the past few weeks. They sat quietly, smoking or sipping water, listening intensely to what we had to say.
Occasionally Paddy Quinn, who sat beside me, used the spittoon which he held on his lap. Paddy heavily bearded, was by far the worst looking of the hunger-strikers.
As I talked, or listened to Owen Carron or Séamus Ruddy talking, I couldn't stop my eyes straying below the tables where the scrawny legs of the hunger-strikers were stretched. We smoked in relays, in the absence of matches keeping our cigarettes alight by ensuring that somebody was always smoking, thus avoiding having to ask the screw for a light.
When we had finished our lengthy piece, a discussion involving everyone commenced. All the lads were crystal clear in their attitudes.
There was no basis for a settlement. They British government were stil persisting in their refusal to move meaningfully on work, association, or segregation. The prisoners' July 4th statement outlined their position.
Yes, they knew they could come off the hunger-strike at any time. Yes, they knew the Movement would have no difficulties in explaining the end of the hunger-strike.
If there was an alternative to the strike they wouldn't be on it. Five years of protest was too much. A reasonable and commonsense approach by the British would end, permanently, all the prison protests.
No, they weren't motivated by a personal loyalist to Bobby, Raymond, Francie, Patsy, Martin or Joe. They knew the score, they didn't want to die, but they needed a settlement of the issues which caused the hunger-strike before they would end the hunger-strike.
No, they weren't driven by a personal loyalty to each other. Regardless of what the others did, each was personally committed to the five demands and to the hunger-strike. They weren't under any duress.
Apologetically, at first, because I knew all those things myself, I told the lads that I felt duty bound to satisfy the clergymen and all those who were pressurising their families.
I painted the darkest and blackest picture possible: between ten and twenty prisoners dead, nationalist Ireland demoralised, and no advance from the British government.
"You could all be dead. Everyone left in this room when we leave will be dead."
"Sin é" said somebody. "They won't break us. If we don't get the five demands then the rest of the boys and the women will."
"We're right." declared another. "The British government is wrong and if they think they can break us they're wrong twice. Lean ar agaigh."
By this time I was starting to feel absurd, but I persisted in probing them harshly, questioning them all, outlining the Republican attitude to the hunger-strike, explaining that we could go out and announce it had ended, or that any one of them had finished it; but the lads, individually and collectively, remained unmoved.
By this time I had emptied two jugs of Tom McElwee's spring water, much to the amusement of Lorny McKeown and Matt Devlin.
"We're not letting you in again," said Tom, as he went to get a refill.
"What about Danny Morrison?" somebody asked. "We heard he was sick."
"Working his ticket." I replied.
"And your brother? How's he?"
"And G.B.?..."
"Cad é faoi wee Tommy agus Fiery Joe. Tell Spike to do is whack. Do you ever hear from him. Fear go h'iontach".
"How's my mother holding up?"
"Is Pauline okay?"
"Can you get me in the 'Irish Times'. Ed Maloney's cat, but there's plenty of reading in it. Any chance of a copy of 'Magill'? How's the Phoblacht's sales doing?"
"Cad faoi mo clann?"
"What about the SDLP? Get them off the councils... And Fermanagh/South Tyrone? How come Owen always wears a suit?"
Our gathering was starting to dissolve into a bantering session. Tom McElwee was trying on my glasses. Somebody was seriously and genuinely concerned that Brendan McFarlane had missed his tea. We were inundated with queries about the struggle outside, about their families, about fellow prisoners, about the women in Armagh, the lads in the Crum.
Paddy Quinn informed us that his sight had gone since the meeting started. I spoke to him privately.
"Na bac," arsa se. "Lean ar aghaidh."
Brendan arranged for us to go and see Kieran Doherty. I told the lads that I wouldn't tell Doc of their position.
"He knows it anyway," someone said. "We saw him last night after Fr. Crilly's visit." "I know." I said.
Doc was propped up on one elbow, his eyes, unseeing, scanned the cell as he heard us entering.
"Is mise," said Brendan McFarlane.
"Ahh Bik, Caide mór ata...?" arsa Doc.
"Níl ro dona, agus tú féin?"
"Tá me go h'iontach, tá daoine eile anseo? Cé...?"
"Tá Gerry Adams, Owen Carron agus Séamus Ruddy anseo. Caithfidh sibh a bheith ag caint leath."
"Gerry A, Fáilte." He greeted us all, his eyes following our voices. We crowded around the bed, the cell much too small for our visitors. I sat on the side of the bed. Doc, who I hadn't seen in years, looked massive in his gauntness, as his eyes, fierce in their quiet defiance, scanned my face.
I spoke to him quietly and slowly, somewhat awed by the man's dignity and resolve and by the enormity of our mission.
He responded to my probing with patience.
"You know the score yourself," he said. "I've a week in me yet. How is Kevin (Lynch) holding out?"
"You'll both be dead. I can go out now, Doc, and announce that it's over."
He paused momentarily, and reflected then: "We haven't got our five demands and that's the only way I'm coming off. Too much suffered for too long, too many good men dead. Thatcher can't break us. Lean ar aghaidh. I'm not a criminal."
I continued with my probing.
"For too long our people have been broken. The Free Staters, the Church, the SDLP. We won't be broken. We'll get our five demands. If I'm dead... well the others will have them. I don't want to die but that's up to the Brits. They think they can break us. Well they can't." He grinned self-consciously.
"How are you all keeping? I'm glad you came in. I can only see blurred shapes. I'm glad to be with friends. Cá bhfuil, Bik? Bik, stay staunch. How's the boys doing?"
We talked quietly for a few minutes. Owen got another ribbing about Fermanagh and South Tyrone. We got up to go. I told Doc to get the screw to give us a shout if he wanted anything.
We shook hands, an old internee's handshake, firm and strong.
"Thanks for coming in, I'm glad we had that wee yarn. Tell everyone, all the lads I was asking for them and..." He continued to grip my hand.
"Don't worry, we'll get our five demands. We'll break Thatcher. Lean ar aghaidh."
Outside Doc's cell, the screw led us into speak to Kieran's father and brother, who had just arrived to relieve Kieran's mother.
We spoke for about five minutes. I felt an immense solidarity with the Doherty family, broken-hearted, like all the families, as they watched Kieran die. Yet because they understood their son, prepared to accept his wishes and completely committed to the five demands for which he fasted.
Talking to Alfie, his eyes brimming with unshed tears, in the quiet cells in the H-Blocks of Long Kesh, I felt a raw hatred for the injustice which created this crisis. Alfie, concerned for us, had a quiet word with Bik McFarlane and left to sit with Kieran.
We went in to speak to Kevin Lynch's family. The prison chaplains were with Kevin, and the screws had advised Brendan that Kevin should not be disturbed. We spent a few minutes with Kevin's father and older brother. Kevin was totally determined to continue his fast, unless the five demands were conceded.
Kevin's father, broken-hearted at his imminent death, told us of his anguish in the face of British intransigence. "To rear a son and see him die like this..."
We left, unable to speak with Kevin. I paused at the open cell door: the priest knelt at Kevin's bedside, Kevin lay stretched on the prison bed. The screw closed the door on us.
Back to the canteen, Paddy Quinn by now restricted to his cell, was absent. The lads asked us about Kevin and Doc's condition. Someone had heard on the radio that the press were outside. One of the lads suggested that the hunger-strikers write an agreed statement signed by them all.
"Send it out yourselves tomorrow. They'll think we solicited it from you." I advised.
"They're still at that," said some of the lads in disgust. "They must think we can't write."
I scribbled out an account of our visit and read it to the boys. They suggested that we put in two paragraphs calling upon the Catholic hierarchy, SDLP and Dublin government to publicly support and pressurise the British government into moving towards the July 4th statement.
"And tell them to get off our families backs."
"Thank our supporters and all the prisoners' families."
They dictated two paragraphs to me on these issues, then, satisfied at the final draft, we spent the last few minutes talking. Matt Devlin and Owen Carron; Séamus, Paddy, and Mickey Devine; myself and Brendan McFarlane. Then a few words with Pat McGeown, Tom and Lorny.
"Before we leave, have any of you any questions? You might never see us again." I looked around at the thin, half-starved defiant young men.
"Have we got any heavy gear yet?" one of them asked. "Get us our five demands." Somebody else said.
"Beidh on bua againn. Brisfidh muid Maggie Thatcher."
We all shook hands. "Mind yourselves, and tell our families we're sound."
"Beannacht dia duit," arsa Bik, "agus be cúramach."
We left by the same gates and watchtowers, Brit soldiers, RUC men and screws. Move the British government on work, association, and segregation. That's what the boys said.
We went out the last gate to where the press were gathered. The huge double gates of Long Kesh slammed shut behind us. I never saw Kevin Lynch or Kieran Doherty alive again.
Posted by Gerry Adams at 3:03 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 23, 2011, 10:10:39 PM
There was no argument to counteract!
Your subjective opinions are fantasy and neither factual or true!
Two exclamation marks this time, emphasising the fact that not only is what you're saying true, it's
obviously true.
It's a masterclass.
:)
Newly-released State Papers from 1981 claim that Bobby Sands offered to suspend his hunger strike just a week before his death.
According to the documents released this morning under the 30-year rule, the offer was conveyed to the British government by the Pope's Secretary, John Magee.
Government archives in Dublin, Belfast and London opened today, giving new insights into the events of 1981.
The year was dominated by the H-Block hunger strikes in Northern Ireland, in which ten men died, starting with Bobby Sands.
The papers contain the claim that just a week before his death, Sands offered to suspend his strike for five days, when he met Fr Magee, then secretary to the Pontiff, who later became Bishop of Cloyne.
Fr Magee told Northern Secretary Humphrey Atkins that Sands said he would suspend his strike in return for discussions with a British government official, in the presence of two priests and three other prisoners as witnesses.
The British rejected the offer out of hand, claiming it was an attempt to open negotiations.
Senior Republicans involved in the hunger strike have told RTÉ News they had never heard of such an offer, which they say went against everything Sands did and said during the hunger strike.
'Behind Closed Doors' is on RTÉ One from 7.30pm tonight, where RTÉ's David McCullagh examines Government documents to gain a fresh perspective on the events of 1981
the british gov were negotiating all along the duration of the Hunger Strike- after the close call of the 1980 Hunger Strike, they knew that they wouldnt be able to deceive the Hunger Strikers for a second time.
I cannot speak for Sands or his family, but I would very much doubt that this played out as is written above. Certainly the first time I've heard it twisted that way !
Sands would have wanted to meet and negotiate with the persons listed above but not to suspend his Hunger Strike to do so - after the First Hunger Strike deception, there is no way he would do this .
the british gov wouldnt have wanted to meet in such a manner as to show they were actually negoitiating !
The Hunger Strikers eventually stopped the fast when the five demands were promised and guaranteed to be met - which they were.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 30, 2011, 06:12:02 PM
the british gov were negotiating all along the duration of the Hunger Strike- after the close call of the 1980 Hunger Strike, they knew that they wouldnt be able to deceive the Hunger Strikers for a second time.
I cannot speak for Sands or his family, but I would very much doubt that this played out as is written above. Certainly the first time I've heard it twisted that way !
But you gave it a go anyway...
Quote
Sands would have wanted to meet and negotiate with the persons listed above but not to suspend his Hunger Strike to do so - after the First Hunger Strike deception, there is no way he would do this .
the british gov wouldnt have wanted to meet in such a manner as to show they were actually negoitiating !
The Hunger Strikers eventually stopped the fast when the five demands were promised and guaranteed to be met - which they were.
Was Sands in any way coherent, a few days before he lapsed into a coma?
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 30, 2011, 06:12:02 PM
the british gov were negotiating all along the duration of the Hunger Strike- after the close call of the 1980 Hunger Strike, they knew that they wouldnt be able to deceive the Hunger Strikers for a second time.
I cannot speak for Sands or his family, but I would very much doubt that this played out as is written above. Certainly the first time I've heard it twisted that way !
Sands would have wanted to meet and negotiate with the persons listed above but not to suspend his Hunger Strike to do so - after the First Hunger Strike deception, there is no way he would do this .
the british gov wouldnt have wanted to meet in such a manner as to show they were actually negoitiating !
The Hunger Strikers eventually stopped the fast when the five demands were promised and guaranteed to be met - which they were.
These archives seem to be contradictory. On the one hand they seem to show Thatcher's government were in negotiations with the Hunger Strikers and on the other hand they seem to say they were refusing to negotiate. Is the timeline the answer to that, i.e. they didn't negotiate until Sands was dead, or is there another explanation?
Being covered on RTE1 now.
Following the paper trail – Thatcher's Irish Legacy Today sees the publication of British and Irish government papers that are being released under the 30 year rule. There are hundreds of documents. Some are minutes of meetings involving the then British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. Others are reports of briefings of unionist politicians by the NIO. Some are letters written by former Taoisigh Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald and assessments of the political situation at different times in the course of that momentous year.
This blog has read some but not all of the papers. Academics, historians and journalists will be poring over the detail of these for months to come and trying to fit the story they tell into what is already known. They deserve the closest scrutiny.
There is of course the important health warning. These are government documents, written in their time with the bias of those political systems. So care is needed.
The H Block/Armagh prison protest and the hunger strikes were watershed events in recent Irish history. Ten prisoners died. Over 50 other people were killed during the summer of 1981, including young children killed by plastic bullets. The events of that year had a profound impact on subsequent developments.
However, it is very clear from an initial examination of the papers that the British government in 1981 had adopted a fixed, intransigent and at crucial points a duplicitous approach to finding a settlement. It consistently refused to deal with the substance of the prison protests and was prepared to allow prisoners to die.
The NIO played a particularly obstructive role aided by the then Secretary of State Humphrey Atkins and his junior Minister Michael Alison. Both were very much influenced by the attitude of Unionist political leaders.
One event which has already been the focus of some media comment is a claim by the Pope's envoy Fr. John Magee that in a meeting with Bobby Sands that Bobby had offered to suspend the hunger strike for five days.
I have never heard this claim before. Moreover Bobby was very clear in his approach to the hunger strike. The prisoners had agreed procedures among themselves to ensure there would be no repeat of the events of the previous December when the first hunger strike ended.
The prisoners wanted Brendan McFarlane OC of the prisoners in the H Blocks and someone from outside to be part of any discussions about any British government proposals. This was to protect the hunger strikers and the protest. Several days before Magee's visit Bobby had refused to meet two members of the European Commission of Human Rights without Brendan McFarlane being present.
Bobby viewed Magee's visit as pastoral. In none of his subsequent conversations with either Jim Gibney or messages to Brendan did he mention making any offer to Magee.
For him to have made such an offer and not mention it would have been totally out of character because Bobby diligently reported any developments. In my view he certainly would have mentioned such an important proposal.
However, whatever the veracity of the Magee claim the British response is clear.
According to the record of the discussions between Atkins and Fr. Magee, which were held at 12.30 p.m. in Stormont Castle on April 29th – 7 days before Bobby died – Atkins told Magee: "that there could be no negotiation: that was what Sands was trying to initiate. The Government had no intention of conceding political status ... To concede that would be wrong – and would also provoke a violent reaction within the Province which would threaten innocent lives. Father Magee said he thought that the prisoners would not be inflexible: they wanted evidence of goodwill because promises had been made to them at the end of the last hunger strike and had not been kept. The SoS emphasised to Father Magee that no promises had been made at the end of the last hunger strike. That fact was well known to Sands ... At the end of the meeting the SoS explained, and Father Magee accepted, that the SoS could not see Father Magee again because to do so would risk creating the impression that some form of negotiation was going on. There was no question of negotiation and the SoS would not to continue to make that quite clear."
The other aspect of this period that will be of interest to many is the detail provided by the British of their engagement with and abuse of the 'back-channel'.
This was a line of communication between a Derry based contact – Brendan Duddy - and a British intelligence agent Michael Oatley who had direct access to Downing Street.
There are transcripts of 8 telephone calls over the weekend of July 4 to 6th between the British agent and the Derry 'back-channel' who was given the code-name 'Soon'. This was just before the death of Joe McDonnell.
The papers raise serious questions about the relationship between London and 'Soon'.
For example, according to the British papers 'Soon' had an agreed code word with them. The paper says: 'At the outset Soon indicated by a prearranged code that he was accompanied by a representative of the Provisionals. He had previously suggested that in this situation we should adopt a hard line...'
It is also stated in respect of another call that: 'Soon reported that a great deal of confusion has arisen in Provisional circles ... Soon then described the circumstances of the issue of the Prisoners' statement of 4 July. He said that the statement had been issued independently by the prisoners in the Maze and the timing came as a surprise to senior Provisionals outside ... Unfortunately, the timing of the release of the statement had caught the Provisionals unaware.'
This was not true. The statement had in fact been issued by prisoners through the Sinn Féin POW department and the Republican Press Centre. I chaired the Sinn Féin committee responsible for handling the prison struggle, contacts with the prisoners, with the British and anyone else. We had seen this statement before it was issued and 'Soon' would have known this.
A report of another call claims that: 'Soon began by restating the Provisionals disorganised position.' Not true.
According to the Brits he also tells them that, in respect of the end of the December 1980 hunger strike: 'the Provisionals believed that HMG had been sincere in trying to implement their side of the agreement. The breakdown had occurred because some of the prisoners had been harassed by some of the prison officers ...'
Not true.
While the prison administration and prison officers worked hard to prevent the prisoners positively working through the December paper from the British, at no time then or since did anyone in the Sinn Féin leadership believe that the British government was 'sincere' in implementing that agreement.
The British also reported that according to 'Call No 7, 2300-2400, 5 July': 'Soon had been called into an angry and hostile meeting of the Provisionals almost verging on a complete breakdown. .. At this point Soon indicated that a considerable number of Provisionals had arrived. ..'
Not true.
The line of communication was very straight forward, although cumbersome. The prisoners communicated with the Committee I chaired on the outside. I then dealt with Martin McGuinness who met 'Soon' in Derry. No one else was involved in the meetings with the back-channel.
These and other inconsistencies raised in these records only confirm this blog in my view that in negotiations 'facilitators' or 'intermediaries' can unintentionally or deliberately create problems by not relying messages accurately.
Finally, among the many matters raised in these papers one in particular stands out. It has been claimed by some that an offer was made by the British and relayed to Brendan McFarlane by Danny Morrison in a visit to the prison on Sunday July 5th.
It is claimed that this 'offer' was the substance of the five demands and that it was blocked by outside because the leadership wanted more prisoners to die for political advantage.
This lie has caused great hurt to the families of the hunger strikers who subsequently died and to those of us who were involved in the efforts to save them.
These transcripts reveal that no offer was made to the prisoners on 5th July and that at the time of Danny Morrison's visit to the prisoners on that day the British government had not formulated its position: 'Soon then indicated that McGuinness had just arrived. He said that time was of the essence and asked what the current HMG position was. We explained it was important before drafting any documents for consideration by Ministers that we should possess the Provisionals view. Soon then undertook clear views on their position. Which would be relayed to us later after discussions in the light of Morrison's visit'.
Another myth busted.
The hunger strike and its repercussions on individuals, families and the political life of this island were far reaching. The papers that have been released provide another insight to a tumultuous period. Next week this blog will return to the papers and identify other interesting aspects of developments 30 years ago.
Posted by Gerry Adams at 4:47
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 30, 2011, 06:20:27 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 30, 2011, 06:12:02 PM
the british gov were negotiating all along the duration of the Hunger Strike- after the close call of the 1980 Hunger Strike, they knew that they wouldnt be able to deceive the Hunger Strikers for a second time.
I cannot speak for Sands or his family, but I would very much doubt that this played out as is written above. Certainly the first time I've heard it twisted that way !
But you gave it a go anyway...
Quote
Sands would have wanted to meet and negotiate with the persons listed above but not to suspend his Hunger Strike to do so - after the First Hunger Strike deception, there is no way he would do this .
the british gov wouldnt have wanted to meet in such a manner as to show they were actually negoitiating !
The Hunger Strikers eventually stopped the fast when the five demands were promised and guaranteed to be met - which they were.
nope - am speaking from the perspective of three other families and men from the second Hunger Strike that I know particularly well- one of the men died on the Hunger strike and I believe two of them shared a cell with Sands at various points of their life in Long Kesh.
I see Gerry Adams has now written something similar to what I had put forward here yesterday - after the first Hunger Strike, Sands and the rest of the men on the Ocras Mor would not have been too quick to move from their position given the deception that met the end of the first Hunger Strike.
For all Adams bad points, he was the appointed outside point of contact for the Hunger Strikers.
Having spoken to family members and indeed the lead negotiator of one of the families yesterday they believe that this is at best a misunderstanding on the British (or bishops) part. Its not as if real events involving catholics/nationalists/republicans were reported upon accurately (eg cain report).
anyhow, just because you havent a clue, it doesnt mean others dont know a fair bit about this.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 31, 2011, 12:16:47 PM
Its not as if real events involving catholics/nationalists/republicans were reported upon accurately (eg cain report).
Again, would be good if you could provide the detail on how CAIN has been discredited. What was reported inaccurately?
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 31, 2011, 01:24:50 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 31, 2011, 12:16:47 PM
Its not as if real events involving catholics/nationalists/republicans were reported upon accurately (eg cain report).
Again, would be good if you could provide the detail on how CAIN has been discredited. What was reported inaccurately?
It has been discredited because LB says it has. What more do you want to know?
Danny Morrison lying through his teeth, imagine. These lads need to realise that the more lies you tell the more chance there is of getting caught out.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/31/danny-morrisons-position/
Quote from: Trout on December 31, 2011, 06:52:57 PM
Danny Morrison lying through his teeth, imagine. These lads need to realise that the more lies you tell the more chance there is of getting caught out.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/31/danny-morrisons-position/
Republicans gave their lives for their fellow man, whilst 'Loyalist' scum like you were too busy jacking off to their library of porn mags - giving a toss, literally.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on December 31, 2011, 07:09:35 PM
Quote from: Trout on December 31, 2011, 06:52:57 PM
Danny Morrison lying through his teeth, imagine. These lads need to realise that the more lies you tell the more chance there is of getting caught out.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/31/danny-morrisons-position/
Republicans gave their lives for their fellow man, whilst 'Loyalist' scum like you were too busy jacking off to their library of porn mags - giving a toss, literally.
Sshhh and hopefully these uncomfortable events and revelations will just "disappear", pun intended.
Quote from: Trout on December 31, 2011, 07:26:09 PM
Sshhh and hopefully these uncomfortable events and revelations will just "disappear", pun intended.
Yeah, imagine the Republican Movement being something less than transparent where perfidious Albion is concerned - the shame of it all!
Anyways, don't you have a (Taig) cripple you can trip up, or a blind person you can close a door on, or some otherwise afflicted that you can publicly mock?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on December 31, 2011, 07:09:35 PM
Quote from: Trout on December 31, 2011, 06:52:57 PM
Danny Morrison lying through his teeth, imagine. These lads need to realise that the more lies you tell the more chance there is of getting caught out.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/31/danny-morrisons-position/
Republicans gave their lives for their fellow man, whilst 'Loyalist' scum like you were too busy jacking off to their library of porn mags - giving a toss, literally.
Never had Trout pegged as a Loyalist. Is that what you get tarred with now if you're anti-SF?
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 31, 2011, 08:23:59 PM
Never had Trout pegged as a Loyalist. Is that what you get tarred with now if you're anti-SF?
Nope, not at all, but this particular fish has a long history around these parts - do pay attention! :P
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on December 31, 2011, 08:29:43 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 31, 2011, 08:23:59 PM
Never had Trout pegged as a Loyalist. Is that what you get tarred with now if you're anti-SF?
Nope, not at all, but this particular fish has a long history around these parts - do pay attention! :P
He certainly takes any bait going.
So Richard O'Rawe's been found out as a 'Walter Mitty' and Mrs Antony McIntyre aka Carrie Towmey a vindictive dumb-ass yank. Can't say I'm not enjoying watching these pricks who've been using the deaths to score points off SF and feather their nests, finally being found out.
Quote from: Ulick on December 31, 2011, 09:08:29 PM
So Richard O'Rawe's been found out as a 'Walter Mitty' and Mrs Antony McIntyre aka Carrie Towmey a vindictive dumb-ass yank. Can't say I'm not enjoying watching these pricks who've been using the deaths to score points off SF and feather their nests, finally being found out.
But the sound of silence in deafening about it. It wasn't so long ago that people on here were quoting these self styled revisionists as Gospel truth. Its actually laughable the lengths some people will go to to discredit republicans. The truth is out and no-one can speak its name!
Some of you Provos better make your way and find Danny Morrison, he has tied himself up in knots with his lying ! Ha ha
Quote from: Trout on January 01, 2012, 01:37:43 AM
Some of you Provos better make your way and find Danny Morrison, he has tied himself up in knots with his lying ! Ha ha
Crawl back under your rock, loyalist scum. Happy New Year!
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 01, 2012, 01:43:09 AM
Quote from: Trout on January 01, 2012, 01:37:43 AM
Some of you Provos better make your way and find Danny Morrison, he has tied himself up in knots with his lying ! Ha ha
Crawl back under your rock, loyalist scum. Happy New Year!
You go back to your shack in Armagh.
Armagh? Trout, I think you're swimming in the wrong stream.
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 01, 2012, 02:54:07 AM
Armagh? Trout, I think you're swimming in the wrong stream.
Sorry about that, I don't which of us could be more insulted by his loyalist ignorance! :D
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 01, 2012, 02:57:42 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 01, 2012, 02:54:07 AM
Armagh? Trout, I think you're swimming in the wrong stream.
Sorry about that, I don't which of us could be more insulted by his loyalist ignorance! :D
But he is right about Danny Morrison tying himself up in knots. Danny probably doesn't know which of his versions of events is the correct one by this stage.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 01, 2012, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 01, 2012, 02:57:42 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 01, 2012, 02:54:07 AM
Armagh? Trout, I think you're swimming in the wrong stream.
Sorry about that, I don't which of us could be more insulted by his loyalist ignorance! :D
But he is right about Danny Morrison tying himself up in knots. Danny probably doesn't know which of his versions of events is the correct one by this stage.
I must be way off on this one. Suggest, propose, hypothetical, FORMULATE, extrapolate, guarantee, you're talking about how one phrases things 25 years after an event, and then how they phrase it again 30 years after. It looks like pedantics to me
Quote from: ardal on January 01, 2012, 07:48:22 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 01, 2012, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 01, 2012, 02:57:42 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 01, 2012, 02:54:07 AM
Armagh? Trout, I think you're swimming in the wrong stream.
Sorry about that, I don't which of us could be more insulted by his loyalist ignorance! :D
But he is right about Danny Morrison tying himself up in knots. Danny probably doesn't know which of his versions of events is the correct one by this stage.
I must be way off on this one. Suggest, propose, hypothetical, FORMULATE, extrapolate, guarantee, you're talking about how one phrases things 25 years after an event, and then how they phrase it again 30 years after. It looks like pedantics to me
In one version of events, he says that the British government hadn't even come close to proposing a deal. In an earlier version of events, he says that he met with various people to discuss the deal the British government had put on the table. That's not semantics. That's tying yourself up in knots.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 02, 2012, 07:18:50 AM
Quote from: ardal on January 01, 2012, 07:48:22 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 01, 2012, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 01, 2012, 02:57:42 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 01, 2012, 02:54:07 AM
Armagh? Trout, I think you're swimming in the wrong stream.
Sorry about that, I don't which of us could be more insulted by his loyalist ignorance! :D
But he is right about Danny Morrison tying himself up in knots. Danny probably doesn't know which of his versions of events is the correct one by this stage.
I must be way off on this one. Suggest, propose, hypothetical, FORMULATE, extrapolate, guarantee, you're talking about how one phrases things 25 years after an event, and then how they phrase it again 30 years after. It looks like pedantics to me
In one version of events, he says that the British government hadn't even come close to proposing a deal. In an earlier version of events, he says that he met with various people to discuss the deal the British government had put on the table. That's not semantics. That's tying yourself up in knots.
your bitterness stops you from seeing the reality here.
Morrisons sentiments at the time were that there was no deal worth talking about initially - not that the british hadnt muted some kind of offer (as happens with making deals- there is a lot of to and fro stuff).
you will continue to see what you want to see. the problem is your information (source) is badly twisted.
but I half reckon even if you heard the gospel truth - you would still refuse to listen to it !
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 02, 2012, 07:18:50 AM
Quote from: ardal on January 01, 2012, 07:48:22 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 01, 2012, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on January 01, 2012, 02:57:42 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on January 01, 2012, 02:54:07 AM
Armagh? Trout, I think you're swimming in the wrong stream.
Sorry about that, I don't which of us could be more insulted by his loyalist ignorance! :D
But he is right about Danny Morrison tying himself up in knots. Danny probably doesn't know which of his versions of events is the correct one by this stage.
I must be way off on this one. Suggest, propose, hypothetical, FORMULATE, extrapolate, guarantee, you're talking about how one phrases things 25 years after an event, and then how they phrase it again 30 years after. It looks like pedantics to me
In one version of events, he says that the British government hadn't even come close to proposing a deal. In an earlier version of events, he says that he met with various people to discuss the deal the British government had put on the table. That's not semantics. That's tying yourself up in knots.
your bitterness stops you from seeing the reality here.
Morrisons sentiments at the time were that there was no deal worth talking about initially - not that the british hadnt muted some kind of offer (as happens with making deals- there is a lot of to and fro stuff).
you will continue to see what you want to see. the problem is your information (source) is badly twisted.
but I half reckon even if you heard the gospel truth - you would still refuse to listen to it !
You've some neck - in recent days you've been caught out making up stuff about the Cain data base and you haven't even the good manners to apologise. Shameless.
Making stuff up??
Shameless??
;D
Yer some laugh alright - a unionist/loyalist masquerading as a taig and you serve up that pathetic 'response' !
As for that Cain sihte - well having read some reports myself and spotting their blatant innaccuracies ( or spin/bias whatever you want to call it) it showed that the report was not true to fact/reality.
Since then others have commented on here and in real life that the report/database is seriously flawed and innaccurate. So it's not just me.
Eg in relation to various Hunger strike 'tales' - cain's details are very wrong and having two ex hunger strikers and members of the family of a deceased hunger striker as my sources ( as well as my own memory) - well I know what I'd trust!
Are you to apologize to me now?
Unlikely given your lack of honour!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 02:37:48 PM
As for that Cain sihte - well having read some reports myself and spotting their blatant innaccuracies ( or spin/bias whatever you want to call it) it showed that the report was not true to fact/reality.
Since then others have commented on here and in real life that the report/database is seriously flawed and innaccurate. So it's not just me.
Eg in relation to various Hunger strike 'tales' - cain's details are very wrong and having two ex hunger strikers and members of the family of a deceased hunger striker as my sources ( as well as my own memory) - well I know what I'd trust!
Any chance of specific examples of inaccuracies or spin?
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 31, 2011, 08:23:59 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on December 31, 2011, 07:09:35 PM
Quote from: Trout on December 31, 2011, 06:52:57 PM
Danny Morrison lying through his teeth, imagine. These lads need to realise that the more lies you tell the more chance there is of getting caught out.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/12/31/danny-morrisons-position/
Republicans gave their lives for their fellow man, whilst 'Loyalist' scum like you were too busy jacking off to their library of porn mags - giving a toss, literally.
Never had Trout pegged as a Loyalist. Is that what you get tarred with now if you're anti-SF?
I'd be pretty sure he is. His disguise is good, i give him that. Who would suspect a loyalist being able to operate a pc and be capable of attempted wind ups. Unfortunately for him, this proves the theory of evolution which must be difficult for such inbreds to fathom.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 02:37:48 PM
Yer some laugh alright - a unionist/loyalist masquerading as a taig and you serve up that pathetic 'response' !
As for that Cain sihte - well having read some reports myself and spotting their blatant innaccuracies ( or spin/bias whatever you want to call it) it showed that the report was not true to fact/reality.
Since then others have commented on here and in real life that the report/database is seriously flawed and innaccurate. So it's not just me.
Eg in relation to various Hunger strike 'tales' - cain's details are very wrong and having two ex hunger strikers and members of the family of a deceased hunger striker as my sources ( as well as my own memory) - well I know what I'd trust!
Are you to apologize to me now?
Unlikely given your lack of honour!
Why would I apologise when you've just repeated the offence? You've repeatedly termed the Cain database as 'discredited', when it seems that your only evidence for this is that 'others have commented' on it. You talk about 'blatant innacuracies' (sic) but don't say what these are or explain why they are inaccurate. You seem to think that just because you think something or say something, it must therefore be true. Like I said, some neck.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 02, 2012, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 02:37:48 PM
As for that Cain sihte - well having read some reports myself and spotting their blatant innaccuracies ( or spin/bias whatever you want to call it) it showed that the report was not true to fact/reality.
Since then others have commented on here and in real life that the report/database is seriously flawed and innaccurate. So it's not just me.
Eg in relation to various Hunger strike 'tales' - cain's details are very wrong and having two ex hunger strikers and members of the family of a deceased hunger striker as my sources ( as well as my own memory) - well I know what I'd trust!
Any chance of specific examples of inaccuracies or spin?
As I have said already - reports from the hunger strikes littered with glaring falsehoods from when I scanned through some of their stuff. Eg Brit gov not negotiating, men in comas when they weren't , decisions supposedly being made for the hunger strikers by the IRA army council etc etc and way more than that - those are just the bits I can be bothered to remember - and that's only the innaccuracies regarding the Hunger Strikes.
So will you give it a rest now and listen to folk who may know a bit more than your good self on such topics ( with the greatest of respect maguire) - myself and any person with bits of knowledge on some or various events in the history of the 40 years war - well myself and many more have found the list of cain 'stories' something akin to the brothers (very) grim!!!
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 02, 2012, 04:11:51 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 02:37:48 PM
Yer some laugh alright - a unionist/loyalist masquerading as a taig and you serve up that pathetic 'response' !
As for that Cain sihte - well having read some reports myself and spotting their blatant innaccuracies ( or spin/bias whatever you want to call it) it showed that the report was not true to fact/reality.
Since then others have commented on here and in real life that the report/database is seriously flawed and innaccurate. So it's not just me.
Eg in relation to various Hunger strike 'tales' - cain's details are very wrong and having two ex hunger strikers and members of the family of a deceased hunger striker as my sources ( as well as my own memory) - well I know what I'd trust!
Are you to apologize to me now?
Unlikely given your lack of honour!
Why would I apologise when you've just repeated the offence? You've repeatedly termed the Cain database as 'discredited', when it seems that your only evidence for this is that 'others have commented' on it. You talk about 'blatant innacuracies' (sic) but don't say what these are or explain why they are inaccurate. You seem to think that just because you think something or say something, it must therefore be true. Like I said, some neck.
That sums you up really ... No class as well as no honour !!!!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 02, 2012, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 02:37:48 PM
As for that Cain sihte - well having read some reports myself and spotting their blatant innaccuracies ( or spin/bias whatever you want to call it) it showed that the report was not true to fact/reality.
Since then others have commented on here and in real life that the report/database is seriously flawed and innaccurate. So it's not just me.
Eg in relation to various Hunger strike 'tales' - cain's details are very wrong and having two ex hunger strikers and members of the family of a deceased hunger striker as my sources ( as well as my own memory) - well I know what I'd trust!
Any chance of specific examples of inaccuracies or spin?
As I have said already - reports from the hunger strikes littered with glaring falsehoods from when I scanned through some of their stuff. Eg Brit gov not negotiating, men in comas when they weren't , decisions supposedly being made for the hunger strikers by the IRA army council etc etc and way more than that - those are just the bits I can be bothered to remember - and that's only the innaccuracies regarding the Hunger Strikes.
Again, that's all well and good that you're convinced, but it's all still a bit vague for me. As it is, it's your word vs the work of Universities. I've also never seen any other criticism of its credibility. You can see why I ask.
If for example, you could contradict specific content... it shouldn't be hard to quote specifics if it's so 'littered' with examples.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
So will you give it a rest now and listen to folk who may know a bit more than your good self on such topics ( with the greatest of respect maguire)
Greatest of respect? If only you weren't so condescending and patronising. I must bow to your great knowledge... and not even question it apparently.
Lynchboy doesent really do specifics or sources when countering an argument.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 02, 2012, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 02, 2012, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 02:37:48 PM
As for that Cain sihte - well having read some reports myself and spotting their blatant innaccuracies ( or spin/bias whatever you want to call it) it showed that the report was not true to fact/reality.
Since then others have commented on here and in real life that the report/database is seriously flawed and innaccurate. So it's not just me.
Eg in relation to various Hunger strike 'tales' - cain's details are very wrong and having two ex hunger strikers and members of the family of a deceased hunger striker as my sources ( as well as my own memory) - well I know what I'd trust!
Any chance of specific examples of inaccuracies or spin?
As I have said already - reports from the hunger strikes littered with glaring falsehoods from when I scanned through some of their stuff. Eg Brit gov not negotiating, men in comas when they weren't , decisions supposedly being made for the hunger strikers by the IRA army council etc etc and way more than that - those are just the bits I can be bothered to remember - and that's only the innaccuracies regarding the Hunger Strikes.
Again, that's all well and good that you're convinced, but it's all still a bit vague for me. As it is, it's your word vs the work of Universities. I've also never seen any other criticism of its credibility. You can see why I ask.
If for example, you could contradict specific content... it shouldn't be hard to quote specifics if it's so 'littered' with examples.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
So will you give it a rest now and listen to folk who may know a bit more than your good self on such topics ( with the greatest of respect maguire)
Greatest of respect? If only you weren't so condescending and patronising. I must bow to your great knowledge... and not even question it apparently.
If its not enough for you then that's fine. Nothing patronizing in it at all. You either know or you don't.
You either have proper credible sources or you don't. I'd not be relying on claptrap like cain.
Do yourself and get off yer ass and check out from other sources - pick any story or topic from it and you can be guaranteed to find contradictory versions.
Then come back to me. ( and tell me I'm right!)
McCreesh family deny British claim
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1231/1224309675206.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1231/1224309675206.html)
Apparantly the claims made by the British in that document are sourced from a credible (cough) source, a prison officer.
But once it's in black and white, Maguire et al, would be swallowing it wholesale ::)
'British state papers released under the 30-year rule allege that, five days before he died, McCreesh indicated a willingness to accept nourishment, but that his family advised against such intervention.'
A statement issued yesterday (by the McCreesh family) said the document was "untrue" and "inaccurate" in its account of statements attributed to family members.
"The family have always been convinced that the situation was deliberately engineered by authorities in government and the prison service to break the hunger strike.
"Agents of the state abused the extremely vulnerable condition of a dying man for political and propaganda purposes. When their efforts failed they attempted to vilify the family. This episode stands as a testament to the depravity of the state at the time, and as a measure of the shameless depths to which government was prepared to go to achieve their goals."
I remember watching Anything goes one Satuday morning in 1981 when the programme was suddenly stopped because there was a massive fire at the Stardust in Artane . The post fire corruption was very Irish.
Actaually heard the Hunger strike, 1981 and Brtitish papers being released on RTE the other day.
One thing they did get right was "remember that the British person involved wrote thes notes etc"
it took them a while but even rte gets it right once in a while
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2012, 07:10:18 PM
Do yourself and get off yer ass and check out from other sources - pick any story or topic from it and you can be guaranteed to find contradictory versions.
Then come back to me. ( and tell me I'm right!)
That's like telling an atheist to go and prove that God exists.
You made the claims, therefore the onus is on you to back them up - if you don't want to, that's up to you.
Quote from: Main Street on January 02, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
Apparantly the claims made by the British in that document are sourced from a credible (cough) source, a prison officer.
But once it's in black and white, Maguire et al, would be swallowing it wholesale ::)
I take accounts from
both sides with a healthy dose of sceptecism, which is more than can be said for some. There are many accounts where the credibility of the source can be called into question.
I'm surprised you can't differentiate between this and requests for someone to back up their claims of that a database compiled by two respected institutions (University of Ulster and Queen's) has no credibility. It's not even as if i'm claiming CAIN to be 100% complete and accurate - just asking someone who claims the opposite to back up that claim.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 08:21:35 AM
Quote from: Main Street on January 02, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
Apparantly the claims made by the British in that document are sourced from a credible (cough) source, a prison officer.
But once it's in black and white, Maguire et al, would be swallowing it wholesale ::)
I take accounts from both sides with a healthy dose of sceptecism, which is more than can be said for some. There are many accounts where the credibility of the source can be called into question.
I'm surprised you can't differentiate between this and requests for someone to back up their claims of that a database compiled by two respected institutions (University of Ulster and Queen's) has no credibility. It's not even as if i'm claiming CAIN to be 100% complete and accurate - just asking someone who claims the opposite to back up that claim.
Were you not invited to pick an issue which is given an account of on the Cain site and look up for yourself
the other versions. Why is it that the Cain version becomes the result of respected research, by default?
Heres one straight of the bat,
How on earth can a chronology be flecked up? I mean all one has to do in a chronology, is put in a timeline
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/hstrike/chronology.htm (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/hstrike/chronology.htm)
Thursday 18 December 1980
1980 Hunger Strike Ended
'The Republican hunger strike at the Maze Prison, and other prisons in Northern Ireland, was called off following the appeal by Tomás Ó Fiaich, then Catholic Primate of Ireland, on 17 December 1980.'Now, factually you can write, that yes the first HS was called off following the Cardinal's appeal, but here in this chronology it is assumed the HS was called off because of the appeal, or that the appeal had a huge bearing on calling off the HS.
For example, if a chronology is to be done on the life of an individual, and it states
1980 car crash - broken leg - out of work for 3 months.
We assume the person broke his leg as a consequence of the car crash and we assume that because of the injury the person was out of work for a period.
Now just a basic investigation of the ending of the first HS tells me that this Cain chronology is opinionated, poorly researched and misdirecting the reader.
You tell me that this is the work of two respected institutions? It took me 30 seconds to find this.
Quote from: Main Street on January 03, 2012, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 08:21:35 AM
Quote from: Main Street on January 02, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
Apparantly the claims made by the British in that document are sourced from a credible (cough) source, a prison officer.
But once it's in black and white, Maguire et al, would be swallowing it wholesale ::)
I take accounts from both sides with a healthy dose of sceptecism, which is more than can be said for some. There are many accounts where the credibility of the source can be called into question.
I'm surprised you can't differentiate between this and requests for someone to back up their claims of that a database compiled by two respected institutions (University of Ulster and Queen's) has no credibility. It's not even as if i'm claiming CAIN to be 100% complete and accurate - just asking someone who claims the opposite to back up that claim.
Were you not invited to pick an issue which is given an account of on the Cain site and look up for yourself
the other versions. Why is it that the Cain version becomes the result of respected research, by default?
Heres one straight of the bat,
How on earth can a chronology be flecked up? I mean all one has to do in a chronology, is put in a timeline
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/hstrike/chronology.htm (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/hstrike/chronology.htm)
Thursday 18 December 1980
1980 Hunger Strike Ended
'The Republican hunger strike at the Maze Prison, and other prisons in Northern Ireland, was called off following the appeal by Tomás Ó Fiaich, then Catholic Primate of Ireland, on 17 December 1980.'
Now, factually you can write, that yes the first HS was called off following the Cardinal's appeal, but here in this chronology it is assumed the HS was called off because of the appeal, or that the appeal had a huge bearing on calling off the HS.
For example, if a chronology is to be done on the life of an individual, and it states
1980 car crash - broken leg - out of work for 3 months.
We assume the person broke his leg as a consequence of the car crash and we assume that because of the injury the person was out of work for a period.
Now just a basic investigation of the ending of the first HS tells me that this Cain chronology is opinionated, poorly researched and misdirecting the reader.
You tell me that this is the work of two respected institutions? It took me 30 seconds to find this.
100% correct MS.
its just that people dont want to accept that this thing could be fatally flawed (the sources coming from british reports on facts and that these 'academics' compiled it only prove it beyond all reasonable doubt imo - never trust an important job to an academic!!)
Quote from: Main Street on January 03, 2012, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 08:21:35 AM
Quote from: Main Street on January 02, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
Apparantly the claims made by the British in that document are sourced from a credible (cough) source, a prison officer.
But once it's in black and white, Maguire et al, would be swallowing it wholesale ::)
I take accounts from both sides with a healthy dose of sceptecism, which is more than can be said for some. There are many accounts where the credibility of the source can be called into question.
I'm surprised you can't differentiate between this and requests for someone to back up their claims of that a database compiled by two respected institutions (University of Ulster and Queen's) has no credibility. It's not even as if i'm claiming CAIN to be 100% complete and accurate - just asking someone who claims the opposite to back up that claim.
Were you not invited to pick an issue which is given an account of on the Cain site and look up for yourself
the other versions. Why is it that the Cain version becomes the result of respected research, by default?
Thank you Main Street - you managed to do something that LB couldn't / wouldn't do. But as I said, the onus wasn't on me to disprove someone else's claim.
As for LB, it wasn't my unwillingness to accept that something was flawed, rather a willingness to understand why you considered it flawed - something which you weren't interested in properly substantiating.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 12:27:18 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 03, 2012, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 08:21:35 AM
Quote from: Main Street on January 02, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
Apparantly the claims made by the British in that document are sourced from a credible (cough) source, a prison officer.
But once it's in black and white, Maguire et al, would be swallowing it wholesale ::)
I take accounts from both sides with a healthy dose of sceptecism, which is more than can be said for some. There are many accounts where the credibility of the source can be called into question.
I'm surprised you can't differentiate between this and requests for someone to back up their claims of that a database compiled by two respected institutions (University of Ulster and Queen's) has no credibility. It's not even as if i'm claiming CAIN to be 100% complete and accurate - just asking someone who claims the opposite to back up that claim.
Were you not invited to pick an issue which is given an account of on the Cain site and look up for yourself
the other versions. Why is it that the Cain version becomes the result of respected research, by default?
Thank you Main Street - you managed to do something that LB couldn't / wouldn't do. But as I said, the onus wasn't on me to disprove someone else's claim.
As for LB, it wasn't my unwillingness to accept that something was flawed, rather a willingness to understand why you considered it flawed - something which you weren't interested in properly substantiating.
what are you whinging on about - I gave you three examples.....which is more than I would normally bother my hole for those other fcukwits.
However if you dont want to accept this or even bother looking into the fact that this database is riddled with errors (a lot serious) then thats your own outlook. I'll not bother my hole again.
even have a think as to where the info came from and the group that compiled it (even if they were non political) - surely , with a bit of thinking 'outside the box' and away from all the other shpp, you will maybe realise the sources might not be credible or accurate and therefore the database (with possibly the best of intentions) may also not be credible (and myslf and plenty of others have found it isnt - and MS after a few mins has also spotted this straight away.
Your lack of knowledge here isnt your fault. But the rest.....
And once again you revert to the condescending and patronising.
And you didn't provide any examples - you made vague references without citing any specific content.
Agreed Maguire, he's a lazy condescending cxnt ;D
Maybe we should be grateful that most of the Derry population don't take too well take to internetting and there's only a few desperadoes on here.
But Maguire, just because you are one the few people left on the planet (outside status quo 'intelligentsia') to have respect for the already much maligned and discredited Cain version of recent history, does not mean that another poster has to give exact details in order to support his point. Cain's version is -d standard of history dressed up in a cap and gown.
It is already proven beyond doubt that the work of Cain is an insult to academic intelligence and history.
You can ask very politely for another to point out where a particular discrepancy may lie, but in no way does Lynchbhoy have to pick out the particular discrepancy in order to prove what is already known, that Cain sucks.
Quote from: Main Street on January 03, 2012, 04:31:16 PM
But Maguire, just because you are one the few people left on the planet (outside status quo 'intelligentsia') to have respect for the already much maligned and discredited Cain version of recent history, does not mean that another poster has to give exact details in order to support his point. Cain's version is -d standard of history dressed up in a cap and gown.
It is already proven beyond doubt that the work of Cain is an insult to academic intelligence and history.
You can ask very politely for another to point out where a particular discrepancy may lie, but in no way does Lynchbhoy have to pick out the particular discrepancy in order to prove what is already known, that Cain sucks.
But that's not the case. It wasn't that I had 'respect' for CAIN or that I'm 'unwilling to accept' criticism of it. The point was that LB continually made disparaging remarks about it and wouldn't substantiate his claims. I was unaware of how/why its credibility was allegedly flawed and asked the question.
You seem to be suggesting that I should be satisfied that something is so, just because LB says it is.
I still find it surprising that I can't find any proper critiques of it online, if it is widely known to be so flawed - maybe i've just missed them?
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 06:10:48 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 03, 2012, 04:31:16 PM
But Maguire, just because you are one the few people left on the planet (outside status quo 'intelligentsia') to have respect for the already much maligned and discredited Cain version of recent history, does not mean that another poster has to give exact details in order to support his point. Cain's version is -d standard of history dressed up in a cap and gown.
It is already proven beyond doubt that the work of Cain is an insult to academic intelligence and history.
You can ask very politely for another to point out where a particular discrepancy may lie, but in no way does Lynchbhoy have to pick out the particular discrepancy in order to prove what is already known, that Cain sucks.
But that's not the case. It wasn't that I had 'respect' for CAIN or that I'm 'unwilling to accept' criticism of it. The point was that LB continually made disparaging remarks about it and wouldn't substantiate his claims. I was unaware of how/why its credibility was allegedly flawed and asked the question.
You seem to be suggesting that I should be satisfied that something is so, just because LB says it is.
I still find it surprising that I can't find any proper critiques of it online, if it is widely known to be so flawed - maybe i've just missed them?
It is one thing to highlight a flaw or flaws in a particular piece of work, and MS has done that. Fair play to him. To label the entire work as discredited, however, is premature. People will sometimes attempt to do this because it allows them to dismiss a work which contains, for them, uncomfortable truths. It would be unusual to find a work completely without inaccuracies - wasn't Gerry Adams' autobiography pulled up not so long ago because he'd got his facts wrong on a couple of issues?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 03, 2012, 06:36:36 PM
wasn't Gerry Adams' autobiography pulled up not so long ago because he'd got his facts wrong on a couple of issues?
In fairness though, would anyone consider that to be an objective historic account?
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 07:31:31 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 03, 2012, 06:36:36 PM
wasn't Gerry Adams' autobiography pulled up not so long ago because he'd got his facts wrong on a couple of issues?
In fairness though, would anyone consider that to be an objective historic account?
Gerry might. ;)
I'm pretty sure even Gerry Adams could get a chronology right.
Myles, surely even you can appreciate that fecking up a timeline overview is a more serious academic crime than merely getting a few facts wrong in a long and detailed study.
And surely even you can appreciate the difference between a subjective account - Gerry's subjective truth -
and an account which claims objectivity, as Maguire has judiciously pointed out.
The basics of a study (a research which spans a period of time) is compile all the information, read all the information, take notes and do an overview before writing your piece. Part of the overview is to do a timeline and it makes good practice to do the timeline at the beginning of the overview.
The timeline and overview is the foundation of the study.
The timeline is simple, a date - an event.
It is in the overview that the researcher stands back, looks at the whole picture and connects the various events in a coherent concise logical flow.
Here in the Cain research, we have the timeline and overview mixed together.
Ok, I can tolerate that. I'm flexible enough to accept a different style of presentation.
But the overview already shows itself to be faulty when claiming the first HS ended because of the appeal from Cardinal O F. Here the researcher connected one event (the Cardinal's appeal) to another event (the end of the HS) and claimed one was the effect of the other.
You see, it is in the overview where we connect events together.
So what we have here in this chronology cum overview, is a fundamental flaw revealing itself, not a mere glitch.
No, it does not discredit all the Cain research into the Hunger Strike period but it means that where contention arises, we can not trust that these researchers did their job properly. In fact, from the sight of the first serious flaw in the overview, the document is already on the back foot and in no position to claim a morsel of authority, should contention arise later.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 03, 2012, 07:31:31 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 03, 2012, 06:36:36 PM
wasn't Gerry Adams' autobiography pulled up not so long ago because he'd got his facts wrong on a couple of issues?
In fairness though, would anyone consider that to be an objective historic account?
Would one consider
any autobiography objective? There's nothing wrong with subjective accounts so long as the authors background and experiences are known and Adams has had his scrutinised more than any other politician on these islands.
Quote from: Main Street on January 04, 2012, 02:29:14 PM
I'm pretty sure even Gerry Adams could get a chronology right.
The man who reckons he was singing 'Always Look on the Bright Side of Life' in prison, even though the song wasn't written until after he was released?
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 04, 2012, 08:14:27 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 04, 2012, 02:29:14 PM
I'm pretty sure even Gerry Adams could get a chronology right.
The man who reckons he was singing 'Always Look on the Bright Side of Life' in prison, even though the song wasn't written until after he was released?
Was that before 'Manolo' was on Faulty Towers?
You've lost me.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 04, 2012, 08:26:35 PM
You've lost me.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fawlty-faux-pas-as-marylous-manolos-fail-to-damage-gilmore-2665154.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fawlty-faux-pas-as-marylous-manolos-fail-to-damage-gilmore-2665154.html)
Quote from: muppet on January 04, 2012, 08:27:56 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 04, 2012, 08:26:35 PM
You've lost me.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fawlty-faux-pas-as-marylous-manolos-fail-to-damage-gilmore-2665154.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fawlty-faux-pas-as-marylous-manolos-fail-to-damage-gilmore-2665154.html)
Hadn't heard that one.
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 04, 2012, 08:34:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 04, 2012, 08:27:56 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 04, 2012, 08:26:35 PM
You've lost me.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fawlty-faux-pas-as-marylous-manolos-fail-to-damage-gilmore-2665154.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fawlty-faux-pas-as-marylous-manolos-fail-to-damage-gilmore-2665154.html)
Hadn't heard that one.
Over $1,000 for a pair of Manolos. I doubt if many of her constituency ever heard of Manolos.
TBH when I saw it on the news I thought she was on about this guy:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdLopaezT6fMxKlnnmgQE0P0Kf5xNLT-m2Jz4w3x4QjiG2K_0_BA)
Quote from: Main Street on January 04, 2012, 02:29:14 PM
I'm pretty sure even Gerry Adams could get a chronology right.
Myles, surely even you can appreciate that fecking up a timeline overview is a more serious academic crime than merely getting a few facts wrong in a long and detailed study.
And surely even you can appreciate the difference between a subjective account - Gerry's subjective truth -
and an account which claims objectivity, as Maguire has judiciously pointed out.
The basics of a study (a research which spans a period of time) is compile all the information, read all the information, take notes and do an overview before writing your piece. Part of the overview is to do a timeline and it makes good practice to do the timeline at the beginning of the overview.
The timeline and overview is the foundation of the study.
The timeline is simple, a date - an event.
It is in the overview that the researcher stands back, looks at the whole picture and connects the various events in a coherent concise logical flow.
Here in the Cain research, we have the timeline and overview mixed together.
Ok, I can tolerate that. I'm flexible enough to accept a different style of presentation.
But the overview already shows itself to be faulty when claiming the first HS ended because of the appeal from Cardinal O F. Here the researcher connected one event (the Cardinal's appeal) to another event (the end of the HS) and claimed one was the effect of the other.
You see, it is in the overview where we connect events together.
So what we have here in this chronology cum overview, is a fundamental flaw revealing itself, not a mere glitch.
No, it does not discredit all the Cain research into the Hunger Strike period but it means that where contention arises, we can not trust that these researchers did their job properly. In fact, from the sight of the first serious flaw in the overview, the document is already on the back foot and in no position to claim a morsel of authority, should contention arise later.
I wouldn't argue with any of that, but I still don't think that one error, focusing on one particular aspect of the conflict, is enough to discredit completely the entire work. If Cain was riddled with such errors, then certainly it would be fair to dismiss it out of hand. If you or anyone else can cite other similar errors, then I'll happily agree that it's a piece of rubbish not worthy of consideration and thank you for highlighting the fact. Let's not forget where this discussion started, however. It wasn't about how accurately or inaccurately the Cain researchers did their work. It started because of LB's continuous habit of making reference to something as 'discredited' without providing any evidence for his statement, despite being asked to do so by different posters over several weeks.
Myles - re read the last chapter of main streets post you get the answer to your question quite clearly.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 04, 2012, 11:26:05 PM
Myles - re read the last chapter of main streets post you get the answer to your question quite clearly.
Thanks, but I wasn't aware that I'd asked a question. :-\
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 05, 2012, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 04, 2012, 11:26:05 PM
Myles - re read the last chapter of main streets post you get the answer to your question quite clearly.
Thanks, but I wasn't aware that I'd asked a question. :-\
OK Myles - Try this, The pointless ramble you went on in your last post was addressed in the last Chapter of Main Streets post.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 05, 2012, 01:12:22 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 05, 2012, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 04, 2012, 11:26:05 PM
Myles - re read the last chapter of main streets post you get the answer to your question quite clearly.
Thanks, but I wasn't aware that I'd asked a question. :-\
OK Myles - Try this, The pointless ramble you went on in your last post was addressed in the last Chapter of Main Streets post.
Ok Myles, try this - you're still wrong.
Great how they will always be remembered even in other countries.
This week Florence City Council voted to name a street after Bobby Sands who died on hunger strike in 1981 fighting for political status. There was a discussion and when it came to a vote 33 city councillors out of 34 voted in favour of the street naming and there was just one abstention.
There were three other streets newly named after Oriana Fallaci, a well-known journalist and writer from Florence; Ilaria Alpi, a brave young journalist killed in an ambush in Mogadishu, Somalia; and world-renowned Italian film director Mario Monicelli.
Irish republican supporters hope that the move will encourage other municipalities to act and honour Bobby Sands and his comrades in similar ways.
Quote from: glens abu on February 23, 2012, 01:46:34 PMGreat how they will always be remembered even in other countries.
Some people have additional memories of 1981.
The morning after Bobby Sands's suicide, New Lodge milkman Eric Guiney, aged 45 from Rathcoole, had his milk float attacked by a mob of rioters. Eric's son Desmond, aged 14, was also in the milk float at the time, Mr. Guiney giving Desmond a lift to the bus stop when they were attacked by stone throwers at the junction of The New Lodge Road and Antrim Road. Mr. Guiney was hit on the head by a rock, causing the milk float to crash into a lamp post.
The mob continued the attack, even as ambulance workers tried to rescue them from the wreckage.. They then set fire to the vehicle. Desmond died of his injuries three days later (8th May). His father was to die on 13th May, without knowing the fate of his son, since he never regained consciousness.
Some of those "commemorating" Sands's death might care to watch the following 4 minute video montage. Or maybe not.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150308024585427
No Hierarchy of Victims, eh? ::)
"whatabout........"
EG has a very valid point, I'm sure he could also include examples of RC victims of abuse during the same period if he wished.
What was Bobby sands convicted of and sentenced to?
Not sure but I think he may have been in a car with 4 or 5 others, there was perhaps one pistol. no fingerprints, but a life sentence?
Yeah Ardel that auld bastard Thatcher has a lot to answer for.
Quote from: ardal on February 23, 2012, 09:11:03 PMEG has a very valid point, I'm sure he could also include examples of RC victims of abuse during the same period if he wished.
I mentioned the Guineys because I was living in Belfast at the time and remember being disgusted that someone who (let's face it) had committed suicide was being venerated around the world etc, whilst two entirely innocent victims who died directly as a result of the violence inspired by Sands's death, would be forgotten within the week.
As for innocent RC victims, I could of course cite any number* of these, but there are two essential differences between their plight and those of the Hunger Strikers being commemorated in this thread. First, those poor innocents had no way of avoiding their fate, whereas the Suicides did. Second, those people did not choose to get involved in paramilitary organisations which inflicted untold terror upon others, unlike the (so-called) Loyalists of the UDA/UVF etc, or the Hunger Strikers of the IRA and INLA.
* - Though none that died the day after Sands's death.
Quote from: ardal on February 23, 2012, 09:11:03 PMWhat was Bobby sands convicted of and sentenced to?
Not sure but I think he may have been in a car with 4 or 5 others, there was perhaps one pistol. no fingerprints, but a life sentence?
Sands was first convicted of possession of firearms when he was found with some guns in a house which was raided by the Army. He was sentenced to five years, but only served half that time.
Within months of his release, he was again arrested, in the following circumstances.
The Provisionals bombed a furniture store in Dunmurry, but as they made their getaway, they were intercepted by the RUC. A gun battle ensued, in which two Provos were injured, but the rest of the gang managed to make their escape, leaving their two fallen comrades behind. Almost immediately afterwards, a car was stopped near the scene of the gun battle, with Sands being one of the four occupants. In the car was a pistol, which was later shown to have been fired at the RUC in the earlier confrontation.
Subsequently Sands was charged with involvement in the bombing and the gun battle, but not convicted, since it could not actually be proven* that he had actually taken part in them. However, he could not deny possession of a weapon, since he was "caught with a smoking gun" (literally) and so this time he was sentenced to 14 years for his second offence.
It is also worth mentioning that four years into his second sentence, Sands was chosen by the Provos to be their "Officer Commanding" [
sic] in the Maze, in succession** to Brendan Hughes, who had started his own hunger strike. Which rather suggests that Sands was no mere "foot soldier" who just got caught up in events which were bigger than him etc, but was instead a committed and dedicated leader of what was arguably the most ruthless terrorist organisation in Europe in the second half of the 20th Century.
* - No Justice for an Irishman in a British Court, eh?
** - Incidentally, when Sands himself went on hunger strike, he chose for
his successor as "OC" the mass sectarian murderer Brendan "Bik" McFarlane (Google "Bayardo Bar Massacre").
Quote from: glens abu on February 23, 2012, 01:46:34 PM
Great how they will always be remembered even in other countries.
This week Florence City Council voted to name a street after Bobby Sands who died on hunger strike in 1981 fighting for political status. There was a discussion and when it came to a vote 33 city councillors out of 34 voted in favour of the street naming and there was just one abstention.
There were three other streets newly named after Oriana Fallaci, a well-known journalist and writer from Florence; Ilaria Alpi, a brave young journalist killed in an ambush in Mogadishu, Somalia; and world-renowned Italian film director Mario Monicelli.
Irish republican supporters hope that the move will encourage other municipalities to act and honour Bobby Sands and his comrades in similar ways.
Good to hear. Not only an inspiration to some of his fellow Irishmen but to people throughout the world
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 24, 2012, 12:01:50 AM
but was instead a committed and dedicated leader of what was arguably the most ruthless terrorist organisation in Europe in the second half of the 20th Century.
and here was me thinking they handed OC titles out with raffle tickets...one man's blah blah blah is another man's...blah blah blah.
I see this is the shit the republicans are selling now, streets named after Bobbie Sands as some sort of achievement. I suppose you need to sell something, the war was lost, the Brits are still in charge, unification is not happening any time soon, Sinn Fein are administering Tory cuts. But there is a street in Eritrea named after Bobbie Sands so all is right with the world. Laughable.
Quote from: Trout on February 24, 2012, 10:01:15 AM
I see this is the shit the republicans are selling now, streets named after Bobbie Sands as some sort of achievement. I suppose you need to sell something, the war was lost, the Brits are still in charge, unification is not happening any time soon, Sinn Fein are administering Tory cuts. But there is a street in Eritrea named after Bobbie Sands so all is right with the world. Laughable.
Be fair, Trout, they also got some very tasteful souvenirs to remember them by, too, like this classic 25th Anniversary special from their good friends in Noraid:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/11al2yu.jpg)
(Yep, it's a Dinner plate. Who said the Yanks don't do irony...)
P.S. It's not just Eritrea, there's a Bobby Sands Street in Tehran, too. With a Burger Bar in it. And his picture.
(http://news.payvand.netdna-cdn.com/news/11/apr/Tehran-Eateries-by-Farshid-Alyan9.jpg)
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 24, 2012, 12:01:50 AM
Sands was no mere "foot soldier" who just got caught up in events which were bigger than him etc, but was instead a committed and dedicated leader of what was arguably the most ruthless terrorist organisation in Europe in the second half of the 20th Century.
I suggest the British Army or the many secret police forces of Eastern Europe would be more worthy of that title.
Give me a tacky burger joint over Britain's disgusting history in the middle east any day...
Quote from: sheamy on February 24, 2012, 12:07:01 PM
Give me a tacky burger joint over Britain's disgusting history in the middle east any day...
Sheamy its just great to see how much the heros of 81 annoy the British and their allies,there will not be too many streets named after the butcher of the belgrano and her henchmen,and not many called after Stone, Wright, Adair,Neave,or Buchanan.
Quote from: sheamy on February 24, 2012, 12:07:01 PM
Give me a tacky burger joint over Britain's disgusting history in the middle east any day...
On the bright side Iran is a bastion of democracy that we should all aspire to be like and hope to be associated with.
Iran was doing fine until the US and UK toppled their democratic government and installed a dictator in its place. We all know how well that worked out.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 24, 2012, 08:24:46 PM
Iran was doing fine until the US and UK toppled their democratic government and installed a dictator in its place. We all know how well that worked out.
Much truth in that, but that does not change the fact that it was a west hating theocracy which renamed the street in Tehran.
33 out of 34 voted for name change in Florence seems like democracy in action to me ;)
Quote from: glens abu on February 24, 2012, 10:04:57 PM
33 out of 34 voted for name change in Florence seems like democracy in action to me ;)
A well the Italians are famous for their political integrity.
Glens, I wouldn't feed the troll. He's been on this thread from the very start trying to belittle the topic of discussion and desperately seeking someone to give him his oxygen of attention.
As well as having our hurling club named after this exceptional hurler and historic republican hero, we have received a ringing endorsement from the British gov in the form of £200,000 funding for the clubhouse and pitch etc!
While the Brit gov and system may have a dreadful reputation throughout the world for their shameful actions and war crimes - at least they have the decency now to realize their wrongdoings and start now backing the true peace and equality desiring citizens with a view to paving the way for the upcoming reunification!
That's the final victory that the hunger strikers and republicans will attain!!!
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 25, 2012, 01:23:16 AM
Glens, I wouldn't feed the troll. He's been on this thread from the very start trying to belittle the topic of discussion and desperately seeking someone to give him his oxygen of attention.
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 23, 2012, 04:44:29 PM
"whatabout........"
No whatabout from EGs post about Eric Guiney to me. Eric was a friend of mine. Carry on.
Quote from: dillinger on February 25, 2012, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 23, 2012, 04:44:29 PM
"whatabout........"
No whatabout from EGs post about Eric Guiney to me. Eric was a friend of mine. Carry on.
With respect, his post was most definitely "whataboutery". There were people from a variety of backgrounds killed in protests which stemmed from the Hunger Strike. Like with EG mentioning the tragic case of the Guineys, someone else could have referred to Julie Livingstone, a 14 year old girl who was shot and killed by the British Army when she was at a peaceful protest following the death of Francis Hughes on Hunger Strike; however this is not directly related to Glens' post which is about the city of Florence choosing to honour Bobby Sands.
Yes Nally i understand what you are saying. I only posted as i knew Eric and his family. That's why i said, carry on. Don't want to see this site going the way of others, for example p.ie.
Lol there's the odd great post on p.ie but aye, 99% of the posts are pure tripe!!
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 25, 2012, 06:17:28 PM
Lol there's the odd great post on p.ie but aye, 99% of the posts are pure tripe!!
You must be at home there NS.
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 25, 2012, 05:54:43 PM
Quote from: dillinger on February 25, 2012, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 23, 2012, 04:44:29 PM
"whatabout........"
No whatabout from EGs post about Eric Guiney to me. Eric was a friend of mine. Carry on.
With respect, his post was most definitely "whataboutery".
Yet another gombeen who doesn't understand the term "Whataboutery".
"Whataboutery" is when A is accused of some wrongdoing and seeks to avoid, minimise or deflect blame by pointing to B and pleading "Whatabout him, what he did was far worse..."
On which point, nothing could have been further from my mind than in some way deflecting blame from responsiblity for Sands' deaths, since he was ultimately responsible for his own demise (imo).
Rather when, in a thread entitled "1981 remembered", posters referred specifically to the death of Bobby Sands etc, I pointed out two (otherwise forgotten) innocents who died as a direct consequence the very day afterwards.
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 25, 2012, 05:54:43 PMThere were people from a variety of backgrounds killed in protests which stemmed from the Hunger Strike. Like with EG mentioning the tragic case of the Guineys, someone else could have referred to Julie Livingstone, a 14 year old girl who was shot and killed by the British Army when she was at a peaceful protest following the death of Francis Hughes on Hunger Strike; however this is not directly related to Glens' post which is about the city of Florence choosing to honour Bobby Sands.
And
you accuse
me of "Whataboutery"?
Jeez, that deserves pride of place in the "Irony" thread. ::)
Oh FFS you really live in your own odd little world don't you. Hard to beat a bit of slective quoting and then putting a deliberately misleading spin on it isn't it!
Anyhow, your continued attempts to pollute this thread in your insatiable need for attention (well you are a WUM) will recieve no further response from me.
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 28, 2012, 12:17:01 AM
Oh FFS you really live in your own odd little world don't you. Hard to beat a bit of slective quoting and then putting a deliberately misleading spin on it isn't it!
Anyhow, your continued attempts to pollute this thread in your insatiable need for attention (well you are a WUM)...
C'mon, Nally, why not make even a token attempt to play the ball, eh? ;)
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 28, 2012, 12:17:01 AM... will recieve no further response from me.
I'm devastated, totally devastated so I am. ;D
1st March 1981 Bobby wrote in the 1st page of his dairy
Sunday 1st
I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world. May God have mercy on my soul.
My heart is very sore because I know that I have broken my poor mother's heart, and my home is struck with unbearable anxiety. But I have considered all the arguments and tried every means to avoid what has become the unavoidable: it has been forced upon me and my comrades by four-and-a-half years of stark inhumanity.
I am a political prisoner. I am a political prisoner because I am a casualty of a perennial war that is being fought between the oppressed Irish people and an alien, oppressive, unwanted regime that refuses to withdraw from our land.
I believe and stand by the God-given right of the Irish nation to sovereign independence, and the right of any Irishman or woman to assert this right in armed revolution. That is why I am incarcerated, naked and tortured.
Foremost in my tortured mind is the thought that there can never be peace in Ireland until the foreign, oppressive British presence is removed, leaving all the Irish people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.
I believe I am but another of those wretched Irishmen born of a risen generation with a deeply rooted and unquenchable desire for freedom. I am dying not just to attempt to end the barbarity of H-Block, or to gain the rightful recognition of a political prisoner, but primarily because what is lost in here is lost for the Republic and those wretched oppressed whom I am deeply proud to know as the 'risen people'.
There is no sensation today, no novelty that October 27th brought. (The starting date of the original seven man hunger-strike) The usual Screws were not working. The slobbers and would-be despots no doubt will be back again tomorrow, bright and early.
I wrote some more notes to the girls in Armagh today. There is so much I would like to say about them, about their courage, determination and unquenchable spirit of resistance. They are to be what Countess Markievicz, Anne Devlin, Mary Ann McCracken, Marie MacSwiney, Betsy Gray, and those other Irish heroines are to us all. And, of course, I think of Ann Parker, Laura Crawford, Rosemary Bleakeley, and I'm ashamed to say I cannot remember all their sacred names.
Mass was solemn, the lads as ever brilliant. I ate the statutory weekly bit of fruit last night. As fate had it, it was an orange, and the final irony, it was bitter. The food is being left at the door. My portions, as expected, are quite larger than usual, or those which my cell-mate Malachy is getting.
Quote from: glens abu on March 01, 2012, 10:49:26 AM
1st March 1981 Bobby wrote in the 1st page of his dairy
Sunday 1st
I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world. May God have mercy on my soul.
My heart is very sore because I know that I have broken my poor mother's heart, and my home is struck with unbearable anxiety. But I have considered all the arguments and tried every means to avoid what has become the unavoidable: it has been forced upon me and my comrades by four-and-a-half years of stark inhumanity.
I am a political prisoner. I am a political prisoner because I am a casualty of a perennial war that is being fought between the oppressed Irish people and an alien, oppressive, unwanted regime that refuses to withdraw from our land.
I believe and stand by the God-given right of the Irish nation to sovereign independence, and the right of any Irishman or woman to assert this right in armed revolution. That is why I am incarcerated, naked and tortured.
Foremost in my tortured mind is the thought that there can never be peace in Ireland until the foreign, oppressive British presence is removed, leaving all the Irish people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.
I believe I am but another of those wretched Irishmen born of a risen generation with a deeply rooted and unquenchable desire for freedom. I am dying not just to attempt to end the barbarity of H-Block, or to gain the rightful recognition of a political prisoner, but primarily because what is lost in here is lost for the Republic and those wretched oppressed whom I am deeply proud to know as the 'risen people'.
There is no sensation today, no novelty that October 27th brought. (The starting date of the original seven man hunger-strike) The usual Screws were not working. The slobbers and would-be despots no doubt will be back again tomorrow, bright and early.
I wrote some more notes to the girls in Armagh today. There is so much I would like to say about them, about their courage, determination and unquenchable spirit of resistance. They are to be what Countess Markievicz, Anne Devlin, Mary Ann McCracken, Marie MacSwiney, Betsy Gray, and those other Irish heroines are to us all. And, of course, I think of Ann Parker, Laura Crawford, Rosemary Bleakeley, and I'm ashamed to say I cannot remember all their sacred names.
Mass was solemn, the lads as ever brilliant. I ate the statutory weekly bit of fruit last night. As fate had it, it was an orange, and the final irony, it was bitter. The food is being left at the door. My portions, as expected, are quite larger than usual, or those which my cell-mate Malachy is getting.
No harm to him, but he was full of self regarding, self pitying, sentimental crap.
Take your trolling elsewhere. If people want to write something to remember Bobby Sands, let them do so in peace.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Take your trolling elsewhere. If people want to write something to remember Bobby Sands, let them do so in peace.
If someone publishes a piece of writing on an internet message board, then they must be expecting others to read it and comment upon it. Take your sanctimonious attitude elsewhere.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 01, 2012, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Take your trolling elsewhere. If people want to write something to remember Bobby Sands, let them do so in peace.
If someone publishes a piece of writing on an internet message board, then they must be expecting others to read it and comment upon it. Take your sanctimonious attitude elsewhere.
The openig post of the thread makes it clear that this thread is about remembering the sacrifice of the Hunger Strikers. Since you have no desire to do so, I suggest you take your deliberately provocative, hate filled remarks elsewhere.
As I am doing with EG, I won't be responding to any more of your trolling remarks on this thread. Hopefully I won't be the only one doing so and you'll clear off somewhere else to satisfy your desperate need for attention.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:54:35 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 01, 2012, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Take your trolling elsewhere. If people want to write something to remember Bobby Sands, let them do so in peace.
If someone publishes a piece of writing on an internet message board, then they must be expecting others to read it and comment upon it. Take your sanctimonious attitude elsewhere.
The openig post of the thread makes it clear that this thread is about remembering the sacrifice of the Hunger Strikers. Since you have no desire to do so, I suggest you take your deliberately provocative, hate filled remarks elsewhere.
As I am doing with EG, I won't be responding to any more of your trolling remarks on this thread. Hopefully I won't be the only one doing so and you'll clear off somewhere else to satisfy your desperate need for attention.
We all have different opinions on the hunger strikers and I'm not about to let a few republican revisionists insist that theirs is the only one worthy of air time. If you don't like that, stay clear of message boards.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 01, 2012, 08:00:28 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:54:35 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 01, 2012, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Take your trolling elsewhere. If people want to write something to remember Bobby Sands, let them do so in peace.
If someone publishes a piece of writing on an internet message board, then they must be expecting others to read it and comment upon it. Take your sanctimonious attitude elsewhere.
The openig post of the thread makes it clear that this thread is about remembering the sacrifice of the Hunger Strikers. Since you have no desire to do so, I suggest you take your deliberately provocative, hate filled remarks elsewhere.
As I am doing with EG, I won't be responding to any more of your trolling remarks on this thread. Hopefully I won't be the only one doing so and you'll clear off somewhere else to satisfy your desperate need for attention.
We all have different opinions on the hunger strikers and I'm not about to let a few republican revisionists insist that theirs is the only one worthy of air time. If you don't like that, stay clear of message boards.
My last words to you:
We also have different opinions on British soldiers, but you won't find me trolling around to find a thread about remembering any of them and filling it with abuse in the desperate hope of getting some attention. Cheerio.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 08:22:20 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 01, 2012, 08:00:28 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:54:35 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 01, 2012, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Take your trolling elsewhere. If people want to write something to remember Bobby Sands, let them do so in peace.
If someone publishes a piece of writing on an internet message board, then they must be expecting others to read it and comment upon it. Take your sanctimonious attitude elsewhere.
The openig post of the thread makes it clear that this thread is about remembering the sacrifice of the Hunger Strikers. Since you have no desire to do so, I suggest you take your deliberately provocative, hate filled remarks elsewhere.
As I am doing with EG, I won't be responding to any more of your trolling remarks on this thread. Hopefully I won't be the only one doing so and you'll clear off somewhere else to satisfy your desperate need for attention.
We all have different opinions on the hunger strikers and I'm not about to let a few republican revisionists insist that theirs is the only one worthy of air time. If you don't like that, stay clear of message boards.
My last words to you:
We also have different opinions on British soldiers, but you won't find me trolling around to find a thread about remembering any of them and filling it with abuse in the desperate hope of getting some attention. Cheerio.
'Trolling around to find a thread'? It was on the first page! Bye now.
Quote from: glens abu on March 01, 2012, 10:49:26 AM
1st March 1981 Bobby wrote in the 1st page of his dairy
Sunday 1st
I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world. May God have mercy on my soul.
My heart is very sore because I know that I have broken my poor mother's heart, and my home is struck with unbearable anxiety. But I have considered all the arguments and tried every means to avoid what has become the unavoidable: it has been forced upon me and my comrades by four-and-a-half years of stark inhumanity.
I am a political prisoner. I am a political prisoner because I am a casualty of a perennial war that is being fought between the oppressed Irish people and an alien, oppressive, unwanted regime that refuses to withdraw from our land.
I believe and stand by the God-given right of the Irish nation to sovereign independence, and the right of any Irishman or woman to assert this right in armed revolution. That is why I am incarcerated, naked and tortured.
Foremost in my tortured mind is the thought that there can never be peace in Ireland until the foreign, oppressive British presence is removed, leaving all the Irish people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.
I believe I am but another of those wretched Irishmen born of a risen generation with a deeply rooted and unquenchable desire for freedom. I am dying not just to attempt to end the barbarity of H-Block, or to gain the rightful recognition of a political prisoner, but primarily because what is lost in here is lost for the Republic and those wretched oppressed whom I am deeply proud to know as the 'risen people'.
There is no sensation today, no novelty that October 27th brought. (The starting date of the original seven man hunger-strike) The usual Screws were not working. The slobbers and would-be despots no doubt will be back again tomorrow, bright and early.
I wrote some more notes to the girls in Armagh today. There is so much I would like to say about them, about their courage, determination and unquenchable spirit of resistance. They are to be what Countess Markievicz, Anne Devlin, Mary Ann McCracken, Marie MacSwiney, Betsy Gray, and those other Irish heroines are to us all. And, of course, I think of Ann Parker, Laura Crawford, Rosemary Bleakeley, and I'm ashamed to say I cannot remember all their sacred names.
Mass was solemn, the lads as ever brilliant. I ate the statutory weekly bit of fruit last night. As fate had it, it was an orange, and the final irony, it was bitter. The food is being left at the door. My portions, as expected, are quite larger than usual, or those which my cell-mate Malachy is getting.
"Our revenge will be
the laughter of our children the Unionists having to make room for us at Stormont, so that we may help them to administer British Rule in Ireland..."
We'll never forget you, Jimmy Sands
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:54:35 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 01, 2012, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 01, 2012, 06:41:20 PM
Take your trolling elsewhere. If people want to write something to remember Bobby Sands, let them do so in peace.
If someone publishes a piece of writing on an internet message board, then they must be expecting others to read it and comment upon it. Take your sanctimonious attitude elsewhere.
The openig post of the thread makes it clear that this thread is about remembering the sacrifice of the Hunger Strikers. Since you have no desire to do so, I suggest you take your deliberately provocative, hate filled remarks elsewhere.
As I am doing with EG, I won't be responding to any more of your trolling remarks on this thread. Hopefully I won't be the only one doing so and you'll clear off somewhere else to satisfy your desperate need for attention.
lier lier pants on fire
Quote from: Evil Genius on March 01, 2012, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 01, 2012, 10:49:26 AM
1st March 1981 Bobby wrote in the 1st page of his dairy
Sunday 1st
I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world. May God have mercy on my soul.
My heart is very sore because I know that I have broken my poor mother's heart, and my home is struck with unbearable anxiety. But I have considered all the arguments and tried every means to avoid what has become the unavoidable: it has been forced upon me and my comrades by four-and-a-half years of stark inhumanity.
I am a political prisoner. I am a political prisoner because I am a casualty of a perennial war that is being fought between the oppressed Irish people and an alien, oppressive, unwanted regime that refuses to withdraw from our land.
I believe and stand by the God-given right of the Irish nation to sovereign independence, and the right of any Irishman or woman to assert this right in armed revolution. That is why I am incarcerated, naked and tortured.
Foremost in my tortured mind is the thought that there can never be peace in Ireland until the foreign, oppressive British presence is removed, leaving all the Irish people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.
I believe I am but another of those wretched Irishmen born of a risen generation with a deeply rooted and unquenchable desire for freedom. I am dying not just to attempt to end the barbarity of H-Block, or to gain the rightful recognition of a political prisoner, but primarily because what is lost in here is lost for the Republic and those wretched oppressed whom I am deeply proud to know as the 'risen people'.
There is no sensation today, no novelty that October 27th brought. (The starting date of the original seven man hunger-strike) The usual Screws were not working. The slobbers and would-be despots no doubt will be back again tomorrow, bright and early.
I wrote some more notes to the girls in Armagh today. There is so much I would like to say about them, about their courage, determination and unquenchable spirit of resistance. They are to be what Countess Markievicz, Anne Devlin, Mary Ann McCracken, Marie MacSwiney, Betsy Gray, and those other Irish heroines are to us all. And, of course, I think of Ann Parker, Laura Crawford, Rosemary Bleakeley, and I'm ashamed to say I cannot remember all their sacred names.
Mass was solemn, the lads as ever brilliant. I ate the statutory weekly bit of fruit last night. As fate had it, it was an orange, and the final irony, it was bitter. The food is being left at the door. My portions, as expected, are quite larger than usual, or those which my cell-mate Malachy is getting.
"Our revenge will be the laughter of our children the Unionists having to make room for us at Stormont, so that we may help them to administer British Rule in Ireland..."
We'll never forget you, Jimmy Sands
I think yer getting mixed up with Bobby Sand's principles and those of SF
Quote from: Evil Genius on March 01, 2012, 10:37:26 PM
"Our revenge will be the laughter of our children the Unionists having to make room for us at Stormont, so that we may help them to administer British Rule in Ireland..."
We'll never forget you, Jimmy Sands
The way I like to look at it, is that we currently have the former Commander of the Derry IRA running the show.
Indeed. So much For bigs Ian's assertation that they would never go into government with SF.
Knew a couple of hunger strikers - before they were locked up. One of them said that as a single man he would rather take the place of a man with a family and kids, that he wanted his own family to rear their kids in peace and he did what he had to do to try to win this right.
He's dead now, but his family have kids that are prospering and the man himself would be taking huge delight in how they are now able to do - with a part of this freedom and equality he and his comrades helped win.
this is what a lot of loyalist/unionists cannot stomach. they dont have anyone with the guts to do anything heroic in their triumphalist history. then again the establishment and aggressors generally never do.
Quote from: camanchero on March 02, 2012, 09:11:01 AM
Knew a couple of hunger strikers - before they were locked up. One of them said that as a single man he would rather take the place of a man with a family and kids, that he wanted his own family to rear their kids in peace and he did what he had to do to try to win this right.
He's dead now, but his family have kids that are prospering and the man himself would be taking huge delight in how they are now able to do - with a part of this freedom and equality he and his comrades helped win.
this is what a lot of loyalist/unionists cannot stomach. they dont have anyone with the guts to do anything heroic in their triumphalist history. then again the establishment and aggressors generally never do.
100% camanchero but sure just let them have their little rants and wear their little poppy in Nov,we will always remember with pride the heros of 81 and the brave soldiers of Oglaigh Na hEireann who fought the might of the British army with all their dirty tricks and loyalist death squads to a standstill.
Pity they couldn't have kept it at fighting those :-[
However bank robbing , intimidation, killing Gardai, Irish soldiers , British and Irish civilians....... ,smuggling, "tax" on drug dealers / criminals, spreading foot and mouth etc etc means that an awful lot of Irish people never had any time for them.
And a lot did. ;)
Just to continue what you started yesterday Glens:
Monday 2nd March, 1981
Much to the distaste of the Screws we ended the no-wash protest this morning. We moved to 'B' wing, which was allegedly clean.
We have shown considerable tolerance today. Men are being searched coming back from the toilet. At one point men were waiting three hours to get out to the toilet, and only four or five got washed, which typifies the eagerness (sic) of the Screws to have us off the no-wash. There is a lot of petty vindictiveness from them.
I saw the doctor and I'm 64 kgs. I've no problems.
The priest, Fr John Murphy, was in tonight. We had a short talk. I heard that my mother spoke at a parade in Belfast yesterday and that Marcella cried. It gave me heart. I'm not worried about the numbers of the crowds. I was very annoyed last night when I heard Bishop Daly's statement (issued on Sunday, condemning the hunger-strike). Again he is applying his double set of moral standards. He seems to forget that the people who murdered those innocent Irishmen on Derry's Bloody Sunday are still as ever among us; and he knows perhaps better than anyone what has and is taking place in H-Block.
He understands why men are being tortured here — the reason for criminalisation. What makes it so disgusting, I believe, is that he agrees with that underlying reason. Only once has he spoken out, of the beatings and inhumanity that are commonplace in H-Block.
I once read an editorial, in late '78, following the then Archbishop O Fiaich's 'sewer pipes of Calcutta' statement. It said it was to the everlasting shame of the Irish people that the archbishop had to, and I paraphrase, stir the moral conscience of the people on the H-Block issue. A lot of time has passed since then, a lot of torture, in fact the following year was the worst we experienced.
Now I wonder who will stir the Cardinal's moral conscience...
Bear witness to both right and wrong, stand up and speak out. But don't we know that what has to be said is 'political', and it's not that these people don't want to become involved in politics, it's simply that their politics are different, that is, British.
My dear friend Tomboy's father died today. I was terribly annoyed, and it has upset me.
I received several notes from my family and friends. I have only read the one from my mother — it was what I needed. She has regained her fighting spirit — I am happy now.
My old friend Seanna (Walsh, a fellow blanket man) has also written.
I have an idea for a poem, perhaps tomorrow I will try to put it together.
Every time I feel down I think of Armagh, and James Connolly. They can never take those thoughts away from me.
I'm old enough to have lived through all of our most recent "troubles" including the hunger strikes. I suspect that many commenting here are too young. Those were different days and a large majority of the catholic population would have supported these men and admired their bravery. Indeed the hunger strikes really gave ipetus and encouragement to those in the IRA and SF who saw peaceful politics as the way forward. For all that Adams and McGuinness draw the rath of Unionists it is a fact that they as only they could do delivered the peace process. I'm not sure the outcome is what Bobby Sands and his Comrades would have wanted but they were instrumental to it's delivery.
Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 02, 2012, 12:41:44 AM
The way I like to look at it, is that we currently have the former Commander of the Derry IRA running the show.
By the mid-Eighties the Derry IRA was thoroughly infiltrated and undermined by police and military intelligence.
I scratched my name, but not for fame
Upon a whitened wall
Bobby Sands was here, I wrote in fear
In boyish shaky scrawl
I wrote it low, where eyes dont go
'Twas but to testify
That I was sane, and not to blame
Should here I come to die.
There's not a source or foreign force
Can break one man that knows
That his free will, no thing can kill
And from that freedom grows
Quote from: Rossfan on March 02, 2012, 09:40:03 AM
Pity they couldn't have kept it at fighting those :-[
However bank robbing , intimidation, killing Gardai, Irish soldiers , British and Irish civilians....... ,smuggling, "tax" on drug dealers / criminals, spreading foot and mouth etc etc means that an awful lot of Irish people never had any time for them.
as a matter of interest how many of these lads did they kill?
also I suspect that your intimidation above was used more (99% i'd say) rather than 'tax' on the drug dealers.
Any drug dealer I know of was hounded out of their areas - again I have a relation who was one and I have no sympathy for him.
spreading foot and mouth - was that careless cattle selling or something - maybe that annoyed some people alright -but blaming the IRA etc - fer fooks sake ;D
Quote from: TransitVanMan on March 02, 2012, 11:50:12 AM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 02, 2012, 12:41:44 AM
The way I like to look at it, is that we currently have the former Commander of the Derry IRA running the show.
By the mid-Eighties the Derry IRA was thoroughly infiltrated and undermined by police and military intelligence.
yeah - heard those tales also ...
and some will have you believe that these infiltrators and British soldiers actually carried out the raids/shootings/bombings etc etc too
think people are confusing this with the british soldiers that were seconded to the loyalist unionist military operations and lead their shooting/bombing sprees etc.
Back Home In Derry
Bobby Sands
In 1803 we sailed out to sea
Out from the sweet town of Derry
For Australia bound if we didn't all drown
And the marks of our fetters we carried.
In the rusty iron chains we sighed for our wains
As our good wives we left in sorrow.
As the mainsails unfurled our curses we hurled
On the English and thoughts of tomorrow.
Oh Oh Oh Oh I wish I was back home in Derry.
Oh Oh Oh Oh I wish I was back home in Derry.
I cursed them to hell as our bow fought the swell.
Our ship danced like a moth in the firelights.
White horses rode high as the devil passed by
Taking souls to Hades by twilight.
Five weeks out to sea we were now forty-three
Our comrades we buried each morning.
In our own slime we were lost in a time.
Endless night without dawning.
Oh Oh Oh Oh I wish I was back home in Derry.
Oh Oh Oh Oh I wish I was back home in Derry.
Van Dieman's land is a hell for a man
To live out his life in slavery.
When the climate is raw and the gun makes the law.
Neither wind nor rain cares for bravery.
Twenty years have gone by and I've ended me bond
And comrades' ghosts are behind me.
A rebel I came and I'll die the same.
On the cold winds of night you will find me
Oh Oh Oh Oh I wish I was back home in Derry.
Oh Oh Oh Oh I wish I was back home in Derry.
Quote from: camanchero on March 02, 2012, 09:11:01 AM
Knew a couple of hunger strikers - before they were locked up. One of them said that as a single man he would rather take the place of a man with a family and kids, that he wanted his own family to rear their kids in peace and he did what he had to do to try to win this right.
He's dead now, but his family have kids that are prospering and the man himself would be taking huge delight in how they are now able to do - with a part of this freedom and equality he and his comrades helped win.
this is what a lot of loyalist/unionists cannot stomach. they dont have anyone with the guts to do anything heroic in their triumphalist history. then again the establishment and aggressors generally never do.
The IRA won nothing and achieved nothing. They brought death, injury and suffering to thousands of families on this island. They set back the cause of Irish reunification by at least a couple of generations. In the end, they settled for an outcome that John Hume had been promoting for 30 years. Heroes my arse.
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 02, 2012, 11:27:04 AM
I'm old enough to have lived through all of our most recent "troubles" including the hunger strikes. I suspect that many commenting here are too young. Those were different days and a large majority of the catholic population would have supported these men and admired their bravery. Indeed the hunger strikes really gave ipetus and encouragement to those in the IRA and SF who saw peaceful politics as the way forward. For all that Adams and McGuinness draw the rath of Unionists it is a fact that they as only they could do delivered the peace process. I'm not sure the outcome is what Bobby Sands and his Comrades would have wanted but they were instrumental to it's delivery.
I'm old enough to remember the hunger strikes too. While many Catholics disagreed strongly with Thatcher's policy and didn't want to see the hunger strikers die, that's not the same as saying they supported them or the IRA. Your last point is spot on, though. I don't think any of those men thought they were throwing their lives away to win SF seats in a local assembly within NI. They could've had that in the mid 70s.
Which one of the heroes was it that took part in the Kingsmill Massacre?
Tuesday 3rd March 1981
I'm feeling exceptionally well today. (It's only the third day, I know, but all the same I'm feeling great.) I had a visit this morning with two reporters, David Beresford of The Guardian and Brendan O Cathaoir of The Irish Times. Couldn't quite get my flow of thoughts together. I could have said more in a better fashion.
63 kgs today, so what?
A priest was in. Feel he's weighing me up psychologically for a later date. If I'm wrong I'm sorry — but I think he is. So I tried to defuse any notion of that tonight. I think he may have taken the point. But whether he accepts it, will be seen. He could not defend my onslaught on Bishop Daly — or at least he did not try.
I wrote some notes to my mother and to Mary Doyle in Armagh; and will write more tomorrow. The boys are now all washed. But I didn't get washed today. They were still trying to get men their first wash.
I smoked some 'bog-rolled blows' today, the luxury of the Block!
They put a table in my cell and are now placing my food on it in front of my eyes. I honestly couldn't give a damn if they placed it on my knee. They still keep asking me silly questions like, 'Are you still not eating?'
I never got started on my poem today, but I'll maybe do it tomorrow. The trouble is I now have more ideas.
Got papers and a book today. The book was Kipling's Short Stories with an introduction of some length by W. Somerset Maugham. I took an instant dislike to the latter on reading his comment on the Irish people during Kipling's prime as a writer: 'It is true that the Irish were making a nuisance of themselves.' Damned too bad, I thought, and bigger the pity it wasn't a bigger nuisance! Kipling I know of, and his Ulster connection. I'll read his stories tomorrow.
Ag rá an phaidrín faoi dhó achan lá atá na buachaillí anois. Níl aon rud eile agam anocht. Sin sin. (Translated this reads as follows: The boys are now saying the rosary twice every day. I have nothing else tonight. That's all.)
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 03, 2012, 09:55:55 AM
Tuesday 3rd March 1981
I'm feeling exceptionally well today. (It's only the third day, I know, but all the same I'm feeling great.) I had a visit this morning with two reporters, David Beresford of The Guardian and Brendan O Cathaoir of The Irish Times. Couldn't quite get my flow of thoughts together. I could have said more in a better fashion.
63 kgs today, so what?
A priest was in. Feel he's weighing me up psychologically for a later date. If I'm wrong I'm sorry — but I think he is. So I tried to defuse any notion of that tonight. I think he may have taken the point. But whether he accepts it, will be seen. He could not defend my onslaught on Bishop Daly — or at least he did not try.
I wrote some notes to my mother and to Mary Doyle in Armagh; and will write more tomorrow. The boys are now all washed. But I didn't get washed today. They were still trying to get men their first wash.
I smoked some 'bog-rolled blows' today, the luxury of the Block!
They put a table in my cell and are now placing my food on it in front of my eyes. I honestly couldn't give a damn if they placed it on my knee. They still keep asking me silly questions like, 'Are you still not eating?'
I never got started on my poem today, but I'll maybe do it tomorrow. The trouble is I now have more ideas.
Got papers and a book today. The book was Kipling's Short Stories with an introduction of some length by W. Somerset Maugham. I took an instant dislike to the latter on reading his comment on the Irish people during Kipling's prime as a writer: 'It is true that the Irish were making a nuisance of themselves.' Damned too bad, I thought, and bigger the pity it wasn't a bigger nuisance! Kipling I know of, and his Ulster connection. I'll read his stories tomorrow.
Ag rá an phaidrín faoi dhó achan lá atá na buachaillí anois. Níl aon rud eile agam anocht. Sin sin. (Translated this reads as follows: The boys are now saying the rosary twice every day. I have nothing else tonight. That's all.)
Too quick for me today Nally,I will have to get up earlier tomorrow >:(
An hour after the explosion in the car park a local baker, Hugh Leith, was strolling along Bridge Street in Ballymena, on his way to the chemist shop. As he passed the Alley Katz Boutique it rocked to an explosion. A 9 year old boy, Denis Dunlop, came running out of the door shouting hysterically that his mother was in the toilet. Behind him the boutique was a roaring inferno. Leith sprinted to the back of the shop, spotted the toilet window and smashed it with a brick, shouting: 'Anyone in there?' There was no answer. Yvonne Dunlop, mother of three sons of whom Denis was the eldest, had been incinerated doing her own mother - the owner of the boutique - a favour; standing in for her while she was away on holiday.
Ten Men Dead, p243-244
Will you be following with details of the other 3,500 who died during the "Troubles" ?
Sounds like a wager Glens!
In Anderson Crescent, in a Catholic enclave within Derry's predominantly Protestant area of Waterside, Joanna Mathers was going from door to door, collecting census forms. An honours graduate from Belfast's Queen's University and married to a farmer, she had given up a job with the Town and Country Planning services in the city to bring up her 2 and half year old son, Shane. To make some pin money, she had volunteered to help with the census. She had just got up to Patrick McLaughlin's house in Anderson Crescent when a masked man danced up to her, snatched the clipboard she was holding with one hand, put a gun to her head with the other and fired. The girl squealed and ran past McLaughlin, who was standing at the door. He slammed it shut, but the gunman crashed through it and, waving the gun, grabbed the census forms before disappearing. Inside the house Joanna was dead.
Ten Men Dead, p106
(printing these to give a bit of balance, to show the sort of thing the heroes of Ireland were locked up for in the first place)
Quote from: Rossfan on March 03, 2012, 03:16:18 PMWill you be following with details of the other 3,500 who died during the "Troubles" ?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JbNQQO9wa30/TZMoeMc2BmI/AAAAAAAAAGk/pTtVivcT8Lc/s320/Whataboutery.jpg)
This thread is clearly intended to be an encomium towards the Hunger Strike - apparently the only memory worth recalling from 1981 ::) - so why
not look more closely , including what caused its members to be locked up in the first place? I mean, it would seem only fair.
Of course, Myles Na G is usually more subtle than I, so I shall be direct and point out the full significance of his post, for the benefit of those less initiated in the reality of The Troubles.
That is, one was one Thomas McElwee. In October 1976 he, his girlfriend and his brother Benedict were part of a large group of Provos who went into Ballymena and planted 13 bombs in the town. One of the bombs was placed in a boutique being managed by 26 year old mother-of-three Yvonne Dunlop, who was burned to death in the ashes, whilst her son had to be held back from rushing in to try to save her. For a photograph of the scene, this site is illustrative:
http://victorpatterson.photoshelter.com/image/I0000P6haVGDp9Rw
Meanwhile, another bomb which McElwee was transporting by car went off prematurely, blinding him and causing the other occupants serious injury. Ironically McElwee was rushed to hospital in Ballymena (the town he was trying to destroy), by the British Army (the enemy he was pledged to kill), before later having his sight partially restored in the Royal Victoria in Belfast, all courtesy of the British (the people he wanted out of Ireland).
Subsequently he was sentenced to Life imprisonment for his part in the Murder of Ms. Dunlop, later downgraded on Appeal to Manslaughter.
"No Justice for the Irish at the hands of the Brits", eh? ::)
Can we merge the above post with the irony thread?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 03, 2012, 09:25:12 AM
Quote from: camanchero on March 02, 2012, 09:11:01 AM
Knew a couple of hunger strikers - before they were locked up. One of them said that as a single man he would rather take the place of a man with a family and kids, that he wanted his own family to rear their kids in peace and he did what he had to do to try to win this right.
He's dead now, but his family have kids that are prospering and the man himself would be taking huge delight in how they are now able to do - with a part of this freedom and equality he and his comrades helped win.
this is what a lot of loyalist/unionists cannot stomach. they dont have anyone with the guts to do anything heroic in their triumphalist history. then again the establishment and aggressors generally never do.
The IRA won nothing and achieved nothing. They brought death, injury and suffering to thousands of families on this island. They set back the cause of Irish reunification by at least a couple of generations. In the end, they settled for an outcome that John Hume had been promoting for 30 years. Heroes my arse.
Interesting opinion but all completely incorrect - including yor wayward assertion that a power sharing elective was available in the 70's - not only was that impossible but I believe posters on here have tanked you over this previously!
....and you call others revisionists!
You can't say all of the hunger strikers planted bombs etc etc so yer wee stories might be sad but pointless as usual evil myles
Wednesday 4th
Fr Murphy was in tonight. I have not felt too bad today, although I notice the energy beginning to drain. But it is quite early yet. I got showered today and had my hair cut, which made me feel quite good. Ten years younger, the boys joke, but I feel twenty years older, the inevitable consequence of eight years of torture and imprisonment.
I am abreast with the news and view with utter disgust and anger the Reagan/Thatcher plot. It seems quite clear that they intend to counteract Russian expansionism with imperialist expansionism, to protect their vital interests they say.
What they mean is they covet other nations' resources. They want to steal what they haven't got and to do so (as the future may unfortunately prove) they will murder oppressed people and deny them their sovereignty as nations. No doubt Mr Haughey will toe the line in Ireland when Thatcher so demands.
Noticed a rarity today: jam with the tea, and by the way the Screws are glaring at the food. They seem more in need of it than my good self.
In Dublin, in room 3074 of the Arts Block at Trinity College, the 35 year old Director of Employee Relations and Services from British Leyland in Coventry, Geoffrey Armstrong, was delivering a paper to 64 members of the local Junior Chamber of Commerce. At 2.20pm, in the middle of his talk, the doors at the back burst open and three men in combat jackets, masked by balaclavas, marched to the front. Some of the audience thought it was a student prank, but then two of the hooded men produced guns. 'Everybody freeze, nobody move, this action is in support of the H Blocks,' one of them shouted. For a moment it looked as if they were going to shoot a woman in the front row. But a gunman turned back to Armstrong, who had retreated from his podium, and shot him three times in the flesh of his legs. Armstrong turned pale, started shaking and collapsed. The gunmen ran out.
Ten Men Dead, p100
Totally agree with some of the very valuable contributions hereon bemoaning the lack of balance. So to that end I hereby post a comprehensive list of all unionists/loyalists who have so selflessly and painfully self-sacrificially given their lives up for their fellow man:
erm...
erm...
erm...
::)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 05:15:47 PM
Totally agree with some of the very valuable contributions hereon bemoaning the lack of balance. So to that end I hereby post a comprehensive list of all unionists/loyalists who have so seflessly and painfully self-sacrificially given their lives up for their fellow man:
The Commonwealth War Graves Commision has quite a list i believe.
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:23:07 PM
The Commonwealth War Graves Commision has quite a list i believe.
So, name me
one who died on hunger-strike (selfless and painfully self-sacrificial).
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 05:38:52 PM
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:23:07 PM
The Commonwealth War Graves Commision has quite a list i believe.
So, name me one who died on hunger-strike (selfless and painfully self-sacrificial).
You didn't say that the first time. None that i know off. The Prods were stupid, but not that stupid.
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 05:38:52 PM
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:23:07 PM
The Commonwealth War Graves Commision has quite a list i believe.
So, name me one who died on hunger-strike (selfless and painfully self-sacrificial).
You didn't say that the first time. None that i know off. The Prods were stupid, but not that stupid.
Yeah, I'd assumed that you might have understood selfless and painfully self-sacrificial, i.e., giving up one's own life
without trying to take someone else's (like those on your list). Plainly not.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 05:38:52 PM
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:23:07 PM
The Commonwealth War Graves Commision has quite a list i believe.
So, name me one who died on hunger-strike (selfless and painfully self-sacrificial).
You didn't say that the first time. None that i know off. The Prods were stupid, but not that stupid.
Yeah, I'd assumed that you might have understood selfless and painfully self-sacrificial, i.e., giving up one's own life without trying to take someone else's (like those on your list). Plainly not.
Quite a few of this lot died not only not causing harm to others, but actively trying to prevent it.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html (http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html)
Quote from: LondonCamanachd on March 04, 2012, 06:40:29 PM
Quite a few of this lot died not only not causing harm to others, but actively trying to prevent it.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html (http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html)
Knowing that you might go instantaneously as a side-effect of your line of work, and giving up your own life knowing that it could take anything between 50 and 75 days are not the same thing.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 07:05:03 PM
Quote from: LondonCamanachd on March 04, 2012, 06:40:29 PM
Quite a few of this lot died not only not causing harm to others, but actively trying to prevent it.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html (http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html)
Knowing that you might go instantaneously as a side-effect of your line of work, and giving up your own life knowing that it could take anything between 50 and 75 days are not the same thing.
Not all EOD deaths were instant, and the prospect of a life long disability wasn't far away either.
I'm not doubting the commitment of the hunger strikers, I just feel the point that their sacrifice was unequalled by "the other lot" was a bit blinkered.
Quote from: LondonCamanachd on March 04, 2012, 06:40:29 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 04, 2012, 05:38:52 PM
Quote from: dillinger on March 04, 2012, 05:23:07 PM
The Commonwealth War Graves Commision has quite a list i believe.
So, name me one who died on hunger-strike (selfless and painfully self-sacrificial).
You didn't say that the first time. None that i know off. The Prods were stupid, but not that stupid.
Yeah, I'd assumed that you might have understood selfless and painfully self-sacrificial, i.e., giving up one's own life without trying to take someone else's (like those on your list). Plainly not.
Quite a few of this lot died not only not causing harm to others, but actively trying to prevent it.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html (http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.co.uk/felix.html)
When Captain Boycott had no one to take in his crop, the Orange Order came down from Ulster to help him. They paid for their own fair, and when they got to Mayo no one would taxi them to Boycott's estate. They walked a long distance by foot. Boycott charged them rent to stay on his land as they took in his crop for him for free. The Unionists were great for the self-sacrifice and being complete eejits at the very same time. Defending the Union that respected them as little as the natives in the colonies/conqured territories.
Thursday 5th
The Welfare sent for me today to inform me of my father being taken ill to hospital. Tried to get me to crawl for a special visit with my family. I was distressed about my father's illness but relieved that he has been released from hospital. No matter what, I must continue.
I had a threatening toothache today which worried me, but it is gone now.
I've read Atkins' statement in the Commons, Mar dheá! (Atkins pledged that the British government would not budge an inch on its intransigent position.) It does not annoy me because my mind was prepared for such things and I know I can expect more of such, right to the bitter end.
I came across some verse in Kipling's short stories; the extracts of verses before the stories are quite good. The one that I thought very good went like this:
The earth gave up her dead that tide,
Into our camp he came,
And said his say, and went his way,
And left our hearts aflame.
Keep tally on the gun butt score,
The vengeance we must take,
When God shall bring full reckoning,
For our dead comrade's sake.
'I hope not,' said I to myself. But that hope was not even a hope, but a mere figure of speech. I have hope, indeed. All men must have hope and never lose heart. But my hope lies in the ultimate victory for my poor people. Is there any hope greater than that?
I'm saying prayers — crawler! (and a last minute one, some would say). But I believe in God, and I'll be presumptuous and say he and I are getting on well this weather.
I can ignore the presence of food staring me straight in the face all the time. But I have this desire for brown wholemeal bread, butter, Dutch cheese and honey. Ha!! It is not damaging me, because, I think, 'Well, human food can never keep a man alive forever,' and I console myself with the fact that I'll get a great feed up above (if I'm worthy).
But then I'm struck by this awful thought that they don't eat food up there. But if there's something better than brown wholemeal bread, cheese and honey, etcetera, then it can't be bad.
The March winds are getting angry tonight, which reminds me that I'm twenty-seven on Monday. I must go, the road is just beginning, and tomorrow is another day. I am now 62 kgs and, in general, mentally and physically, I feel very good.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 04, 2012, 08:56:42 PM
When Captain Boycott had no one to take in his crop, the Orange Order came down from Ulster to help him. They paid for their own fair, and when they got to Mayo no one would taxi them to Boycott's estate. They walked a long distance by foot. Boycott charged them rent to stay on his land as they took in his crop for him for free. The Unionists were great for the self-sacrifice and being complete eejits at the very same time. Defending the Union that respected them as little as the natives in the colonies/conqured territories.
Just as no one side has a unique claim to courage and self-sacrifice, so no side has a unique claim on stupid and futile waste of life. Their own or others.
Now that Harland and Wolff has closed down NI has lost its use to Westminster, Unionists might be a bit leery. After all, Westminster doesn't seem be doing a great job of keeping hold of Scotland, and we've got the oil.
Friday 6th
There was no priest in last night or tonight. They stopped me from seeing my solicitor tonight, as another part of the isolation process, which, as time goes by, they will ruthlessly implement. I expect they may move me sooner than expected to an empty wing. I will be sorry to leave the boys, but I know the road is a hard one and everything must be conquered.
I have felt the loss of energy twice today, and I am feeling slightly weak.
They (the Screws) are unembarrassed by the enormous amount of food they are putting into the cell and I know they have every bean and chip counted or weighed. The damned fools don't realise that the doctor does tests for traces of any food eaten. Regardless, I have no intention of sampling their tempting morsels.
I am sleeping well at night so far, as I avoid sleeping during the day. I am even having pleasant dreams and so far no headaches. Is that a tribute to my psychological frame of mind or will I pay for that tomorrow or later! I wonder how long I will be able to keep these scribbles going?
My friend Jennifer got twenty years. I am greatly distressed. (Twenty-one-year-old Jennifer McCann, from Belfast's Twinbrook estate, was sentenced to twenty years' imprisonment for shooting at an RUC man).
I have no doubts or regrets about what I am doing for I know what I have faced for eight years, and in particular for the last four and-a-half years, others will face, young lads and girls still at school, or young Gerard or Kevin (Bobby's son and nephew, respectively) and thousands of others.
They will not criminalise us, rob us of our true identity, steal our individualism, depoliticise us, churn us out as systemised, institutionalised, decent law-abiding robots. Never will they label our liberation struggle as criminal.
I am (even after all the torture) amazed at British logic. Never in eight centuries have they succeeded in breaking the spirit of one man who refused to be broken. They have not dispirited, conquered, nor demoralised my people, nor will they ever.
I may be a sinner, but I stand — and if it so be, will die — happy knowing that I do not have to answer for what these people have done to our ancient nation.
Thomas Clarke is in my thoughts, and MacSwiney, Stagg, Gaughan, Thomas Ashe, McCaughey. Dear God, we have so many that another one to those knaves means nothing, or so they say, for some day they'll pay.
When I am thinking of Clarke, I thought of the time I spent in 'B' wing in Crumlin Road jail in September and October '77. I realised just what was facing me then. I've no need to record it all, some of my comrades experienced it too, so they know I have been thinking that some people (maybe many people) blame me for this hunger-strike, but I have tried everything possible to avert it short of surrender.
I pity those who say that, because they do not know the British and I feel more the pity for them because they don't even know their poor selves. But didn't we have people like that who sought to accuse Tone, Emmet, Pearse, Connolly, Mellowes: that unfortunate attitude is perennial also...
I can hear the curlew passing overhead. Such a lonely cell, such a lonely struggle. But, my friend, this road is well trod and he, whoever he was, who first passed this way, deserves the salute of the nation. I am but a mere follower and I must say Oíche Mhaith.
Quote from: glens abu on March 06, 2012, 08:46:54 AM
Friday 6th
There was no priest in last night or tonight. They stopped me from seeing my solicitor tonight, as another part of the isolation process, which, as time goes by, they will ruthlessly implement. I expect they may move me sooner than expected to an empty wing. I will be sorry to leave the boys, but I know the road is a hard one and everything must be conquered.
I have felt the loss of energy twice today, and I am feeling slightly weak.
They (the Screws) are unembarrassed by the enormous amount of food they are putting into the cell and I know they have every bean and chip counted or weighed. The damned fools don't realise that the doctor does tests for traces of any food eaten. Regardless, I have no intention of sampling their tempting morsels.
I am sleeping well at night so far, as I avoid sleeping during the day. I am even having pleasant dreams and so far no headaches. Is that a tribute to my psychological frame of mind or will I pay for that tomorrow or later! I wonder how long I will be able to keep these scribbles going?
My friend Jennifer got twenty years. I am greatly distressed. (Twenty-one-year-old Jennifer McCann, from Belfast's Twinbrook estate, was sentenced to twenty years' imprisonment for shooting at an RUC man).
I have no doubts or regrets about what I am doing for I know what I have faced for eight years, and in particular for the last four and-a-half years, others will face, young lads and girls still at school, or young Gerard or Kevin (Bobby's son and nephew, respectively) and thousands of others.
They will not criminalise us, rob us of our true identity, steal our individualism, depoliticise us, churn us out as systemised, institutionalised, decent law-abiding robots. Never will they label our liberation struggle as criminal.
I am (even after all the torture) amazed at British logic. Never in eight centuries have they succeeded in breaking the spirit of one man who refused to be broken. They have not dispirited, conquered, nor demoralised my people, nor will they ever.
I may be a sinner, but I stand — and if it so be, will die — happy knowing that I do not have to answer for what these people have done to our ancient nation.
Thomas Clarke is in my thoughts, and MacSwiney, Stagg, Gaughan, Thomas Ashe, McCaughey. Dear God, we have so many that another one to those knaves means nothing, or so they say, for some day they'll pay.
When I am thinking of Clarke, I thought of the time I spent in 'B' wing in Crumlin Road jail in September and October '77. I realised just what was facing me then. I've no need to record it all, some of my comrades experienced it too, so they know I have been thinking that some people (maybe many people) blame me for this hunger-strike, but I have tried everything possible to avert it short of surrender.
I pity those who say that, because they do not know the British and I feel more the pity for them because they don't even know their poor selves. But didn't we have people like that who sought to accuse Tone, Emmet, Pearse, Connolly, Mellowes: that unfortunate attitude is perennial also...
I can hear the curlew passing overhead. Such a lonely cell, such a lonely struggle. But, my friend, this road is well trod and he, whoever he was, who first passed this way, deserves the salute of the nation. I am but a mere follower and I must say Oíche Mhaith.
If ever you wanted evidence that Sands (or his editors *) already had one eye on his status as republican legend, look no further. The use of a curlew as a poetic device is well documented in Irish literature and Sands (or his editors) slip it in here to signify the loneliness of the long distance hunger striker. The litany of republican martyrs is also no accident: this is a statement designed to place Sands alongside those same martyrs, to link their struggle with his. (This was at a time, remember, when the republican movement was facing mounting criticism from a nationalist community sick of 10 years of atrocities).
* Sands' later communications are significantly better on the grammar front than some of his earlier stuff. In one earlier comm, he says 'I was took to Castlereagh' He also refers to 'them days'. He continues: 'I must have wrote you articles...' Yet by the end, he's waxing on about curlews with hardly a grammatical mistake in sight.
Saturday 7th
I received a most welcome note tonight from Bernie, my sister. old Bernie. I love her and think she's the greatest.
I am now convinced that the authorities intend to implement strict isolation soon, as I am having trouble in seeing my solicitor. I hope I'm wrong about the isolation, but we'll see.
It's only that I'd like to remain with the boys for as long as possible for many reasons. If I'm isolated, I will simply conquer it.
A priest was in today, somewhat pleasant, and told me about Brendan O Cathaoir's article in The Irish Times during the week, which I saw. We had a bit of discussion on certain points, which, of course, were to him contentious. He was cordial in his own practised way, purely tactical, of course, and at the same time he was most likely boiling over inside, thinking of the reference to this week's AP/RN (February 28th issue) calling him a collaborating middle-class nationalist, or appropriate words to that effect.
He is too, says I, and I sympathise with those unfortunate sons of God who find themselves battling against the poverty, disease, corruption, death and inhumanities of the missions...
I am 61 kgs today, going down. I'm not troubled by hunger pangs, nor paranoiac about anything pertaining to food, but, by God, the food has improved here. I thought I noticed that during the last hunger-strike. Well, there is a lot at stake here.
I got the Irish News today, but there's nothing in it, that's why I got it.
I'm looking forward to seeing the comrades at Mass tomorrow, all the younger looking faces, minus the beards, moustaches, long rambling untamed hair matted in thick clumps.
One thing is sure, that awful stage, of the piercing or glazed eyes, the tell-tale sign of the rigours of torture, won't be gone - if it is ever removed. I wonder is it even conceivable that it could be erased from the mind?
We got a new comrade during the week. Isn't it inspiring the comrades who keep joining us? I read what Jennifer said in court. (On being sentenced, Jennifer McCann said: 'I am a Republican prisoner of war and at the moment my comrade Bobby Sands is on hunger-strike to defend my rights as a political prisoner.') I was touched and proud, she is my comrade.
I've been thinking of Mary Doyle and Ellen McGuigan and all the rest of the girls in Armagh. How can I forget them?
The Screws are staring at me perplexed. Many of them hope (if their eyes tell the truth) that I will die. If need be, I'll oblige them, but my God they are fools. Oscar Wilde did not do justice to them for I believe they are lower than even he thought. And I may add there is only one thing lower than a Screw and that is a Governor. And in my experience the higher one goes up that disgusting ladder they call rank, or position, the lower one gets...
It's raining. I'm not cold, my spirits are well, and I'm still getting some smokes — decadence, well sort of, but who's perfect. Bad for your health. Mar dheas anois, Oíche Mhaith
Quote from: glens abu on February 23, 2012, 01:46:34 PM
Great how they will always be remembered even in other countries.
This week Florence City Council voted to name a street after Bobby Sands who died on hunger strike in 1981 fighting for political status. There was a discussion and when it came to a vote 33 city councillors out of 34 voted in favour of the street naming and there was just one abstention.
There were three other streets newly named after Oriana Fallaci, a well-known journalist and writer from Florence; Ilaria Alpi, a brave young journalist killed in an ambush in Mogadishu, Somalia; and world-renowned Italian film director Mario Monicelli.
Irish republican supporters hope that the move will encourage other municipalities to act and honour Bobby Sands and his comrades in similar ways.
Patsy O'Hara Place, Auckland, New Zealand:
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/430052_372699606087773_165309353493467_1310970_1968735084_n.jpg)
Sunday 8th
In a few hours time I shall be twenty-seven grand years of age. Paradoxically it will be a happy enough birthday; perhaps that's because I am free in spirit. I can offer no other reason.
I was at Mass today, and saw all the lads minus their beards, etc. An American priest said Mass and I went to Communion. One of the lads collapsed before Mass, but he's all right now. Another was taken out to Musgrave military hospital. These are regular occurrences.
I am 60.8 kgs today, and have no medical complaints.
I received another note from my sister Bernie and her boyfriend. It does my heart good to hear from her. I got the Irish News today, which carried some adverts in support of the hunger-strike.
There is a stand-by doctor who examined me at the weekend, a young man whose name I did not know up until now. Little friendly Dr Ross has been the doctor. He was also the doctor during the last hunger-strike.
Dr Emerson is, they say, down with the 'flu... Dr Ross, although friendly, is in my opinion also an examiner of people's minds. Which reminds me, they haven't asked me to see a psychiatrist yet. No doubt they will yet, but I won't see him for I am mentally stable, probably more so than he.
I read some wild-life articles in various papers, which indeed brought back memories of the once-upon-a-time budding ornithologist! It was a bright pleasant afternoon today and it is a calm evening. It is surprising what even the confined eyes and ears can discover.
I am awaiting the lark, for spring is all but upon us. How I listened to that lark when I was in H-5, and watched a pair of chaffinches which arrived in February. Now lying on what indeed is my death bed, I still listen even to the black crows.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 06, 2012, 07:10:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 06, 2012, 08:46:54 AM
Friday 6th
There was no priest in last night or tonight. They stopped me from seeing my solicitor tonight, as another part of the isolation process, which, as time goes by, they will ruthlessly implement. I expect they may move me sooner than expected to an empty wing. I will be sorry to leave the boys, but I know the road is a hard one and everything must be conquered.
I have felt the loss of energy twice today, and I am feeling slightly weak.
They (the Screws) are unembarrassed by the enormous amount of food they are putting into the cell and I know they have every bean and chip counted or weighed. The damned fools don't realise that the doctor does tests for traces of any food eaten. Regardless, I have no intention of sampling their tempting morsels.
I am sleeping well at night so far, as I avoid sleeping during the day. I am even having pleasant dreams and so far no headaches. Is that a tribute to my psychological frame of mind or will I pay for that tomorrow or later! I wonder how long I will be able to keep these scribbles going?
My friend Jennifer got twenty years. I am greatly distressed. (Twenty-one-year-old Jennifer McCann, from Belfast's Twinbrook estate, was sentenced to twenty years' imprisonment for shooting at an RUC man).
I have no doubts or regrets about what I am doing for I know what I have faced for eight years, and in particular for the last four and-a-half years, others will face, young lads and girls still at school, or young Gerard or Kevin (Bobby's son and nephew, respectively) and thousands of others.
They will not criminalise us, rob us of our true identity, steal our individualism, depoliticise us, churn us out as systemised, institutionalised, decent law-abiding robots. Never will they label our liberation struggle as criminal.
I am (even after all the torture) amazed at British logic. Never in eight centuries have they succeeded in breaking the spirit of one man who refused to be broken. They have not dispirited, conquered, nor demoralised my people, nor will they ever.
I may be a sinner, but I stand — and if it so be, will die — happy knowing that I do not have to answer for what these people have done to our ancient nation.
Thomas Clarke is in my thoughts, and MacSwiney, Stagg, Gaughan, Thomas Ashe, McCaughey. Dear God, we have so many that another one to those knaves means nothing, or so they say, for some day they'll pay.
When I am thinking of Clarke, I thought of the time I spent in 'B' wing in Crumlin Road jail in September and October '77. I realised just what was facing me then. I've no need to record it all, some of my comrades experienced it too, so they know I have been thinking that some people (maybe many people) blame me for this hunger-strike, but I have tried everything possible to avert it short of surrender.
I pity those who say that, because they do not know the British and I feel more the pity for them because they don't even know their poor selves. But didn't we have people like that who sought to accuse Tone, Emmet, Pearse, Connolly, Mellowes: that unfortunate attitude is perennial also...
I can hear the curlew passing overhead. Such a lonely cell, such a lonely struggle. But, my friend, this road is well trod and he, whoever he was, who first passed this way, deserves the salute of the nation. I am but a mere follower and I must say Oíche Mhaith.
If ever you wanted evidence that Sands (or his editors *) already had one eye on his status as republican legend, look no further. The use of a curlew as a poetic device is well documented in Irish literature and Sands (or his editors) slip it in here to signify the loneliness of the long distance hunger striker. The litany of republican martyrs is also no accident: this is a statement designed to place Sands alongside those same martyrs, to link their struggle with his. (This was at a time, remember, when the republican movement was facing mounting criticism from a nationalist community sick of 10 years of atrocities).
* Sands' later communications are significantly better on the grammar front than some of his earlier stuff. In one earlier comm, he says 'I was took to Castlereagh' He also refers to 'them days'. He continues: 'I must have wrote you articles...' Yet by the end, he's waxing on about curlews with hardly a grammatical mistake in sight.
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
Quote from: theticklemister on March 08, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
Arra now, I know young Bobby et al. have been raised to sacred cow status long since but now we are to say he is one of the finest poets and scholars we ever had?
Part of the great work at elevating Saint Bobby.
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted. Indeed it is no surprise that in retrospective republicans' questioning of the actual conviction grew to questioning of him being actually involved, to complete denial at this stage. This no doubt motivated by the fact that targetting the Balmorral store is a hard one to "pretty up". It is difficult because it was such an overtly sectarian act (Not once but twice) to target a business for being owned by Protestants in a loyalist area.
Being willing to die for a cause isn't the only measure of a man or his cause.
/Jim.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 08, 2012, 11:58:30 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on March 08, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
Arra now, I know young Bobby et al. have been raised to sacred cow status long since but now we are to say he is one of the finest poets and scholars we ever had?
Part of the great work at elevating Saint Bobby.
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted. Indeed it is no surprise that in retrospective republicans' questioning of the actual conviction grew to questioning of him being actually involved, to complete denial at this stage. This no doubt motivated by the fact that targetting the Balmorral store is a hard one to "pretty up". It is difficult because it was such an overtly sectarian act (Not once but twice) to target a business for being owned by Protestants in a loyalist area.
Being willing to die for a cause isn't the only measure of a man or his cause.
/Jim.
Load of balls Murph,Bobby Sands was sentenced to 14 years for possession of a gun allegedly used in a gun battle with the RUC after the bombing in Dunmurry,he was never charged with any bombing.Also the IRA at the time were involved in bombing commercial premises and it didn't matter what the religion was of the owner.There was not a sectarian bone in his body.
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 08, 2012, 11:58:30 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on March 08, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
Arra now, I know young Bobby et al. have been raised to sacred cow status long since but now we are to say he is one of the finest poets and scholars we ever had?
Part of the great work at elevating Saint Bobby.
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted. Indeed it is no surprise that in retrospective republicans' questioning of the actual conviction grew to questioning of him being actually involved, to complete denial at this stage. This no doubt motivated by the fact that targetting the Balmorral store is a hard one to "pretty up". It is difficult because it was such an overtly sectarian act (Not once but twice) to target a business for being owned by Protestants in a loyalist area.
Being willing to die for a cause isn't the only measure of a man or his cause.
/Jim.
Load of balls Murph,Bobby Sands was sentenced to 14 years for possession of a gun allegedly used in a gun battle with the RUC after the bombing in Dunmurry,he was never charged with any bombing.Also the IRA at the time were involved in bombing commercial premises and it didn't matter what the religion was of the owner.There was not a sectarian bone in his body.
What was that about? (Serious question)
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 12:25:20 PM
Also the IRA at the time were involved in bombing commercial premises and it didn't matter what the religion was of the owner.
Stepping over the official
line lie there Glens. You are supposed to say that the IRA were involved in bombing commercial premises at the time and while it didn't matter what the religion of the owner was, they had to avoid Catholic business to protect their support base. So while there was a sectarian element to their campaign, they hadn't a sectarian bone in their bodies.
At least the 76 attack was at night, not like the 71 attack on the company's other premises on the Shankhill. There 4 customers died (including 2 babies) but given that one of them was a Catholic, we can console ourselves that the bombers probably hadn't a sectarian bone in their bodies.
/Jim.
Quote from: muppet on March 08, 2012, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 08, 2012, 11:58:30 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on March 08, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
Arra now, I know young Bobby et al. have been raised to sacred cow status long since but now we are to say he is one of the finest poets and scholars we ever had?
Part of the great work at elevating Saint Bobby.
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted. Indeed it is no surprise that in retrospective republicans' questioning of the actual conviction grew to questioning of him being actually involved, to complete denial at this stage. This no doubt motivated by the fact that targetting the Balmorral store is a hard one to "pretty up". It is difficult because it was such an overtly sectarian act (Not once but twice) to target a business for being owned by Protestants in a loyalist area.
Being willing to die for a cause isn't the only measure of a man or his cause.
/Jim.
Load of balls Murph,Bobby Sands was sentenced to 14 years for possession of a gun allegedly used in a gun battle with the RUC after the bombing in Dunmurry,he was never charged with any bombing.Also the IRA at the time were involved in bombing commercial premises and it didn't matter what the religion was of the owner.There was not a sectarian bone in his body.
What was that about? (Serious question)
Well probably the thinking behind it at the time was to bankrupt the state and put as much financial pressure as possible on the British to get them to the negotiating table,if it had been possible it would all have been carried out in England but that was impossible.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 08, 2012, 01:36:21 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 12:25:20 PM
Also the IRA at the time were involved in bombing commercial premises and it didn't matter what the religion was of the owner.
Stepping over the official line lie there Glens. You are supposed to say that the IRA were involved in bombing commercial premises at the time and while it didn't matter what the religion of the owner was, they had to avoid Catholic business to protect their support base. So while there was a sectarian element to their campaign, they hadn't a sectarian bone in their bodies.
At least the 76 attack was at night, not like the 71 attack on the company's other premises on the Shankhill. There 4 customers died (including 2 babies) but given that one of them was a Catholic, we can console ourselves that the bombers probably hadn't a sectarian bone in their bodies.
/Jim.
thats your opinion and your entitled to it,but please try and tell the truth and dont make up stories about Bobby Sands as your lies will be found out.
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 01:49:54 PM
thats your opinion and your entitled to it,but please try and tell the truth and dont make up stories about Bobby Sands as your lies will be found out.
I never said he was convicted of the bombing, you just accused me of that.
The reference to the discussion about the linkage between Sands and the Dunmurry bombing was in the book "Ten Men Dead" and may also have been in Taylor's book on the Provos.
My opinion that the incident was sectarian is as valid (and no more/less a lie) than yours that it wasn't.
/Jim.
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted.
So you were trying to say that possession of a gun allegedly used in an attack on the RUC was sectarian. ;D ;DYeah right.
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 02:02:51 PM
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted.
So you were trying to say that possession of a gun allegedly used in an attack on the RUC was sectarian. ;D ;DYeah right.
The gun that was in the car was used in a gunfight by a gang that bombed a furniture store. I see a linkage, not three stand alone incidents. If that's lying then good man you nailed me.
Or are you saying I am lying about the discussion happening?
/Jim.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 08, 2012, 02:20:17 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 02:02:51 PM
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted.
So you were trying to say that possession of a gun allegedly used in an attack on the RUC was sectarian. ;D ;DYeah right.
The gun that was in the car was used in a gunfight by a gang that bombed a furniture store. I see a linkage, not three stand alone incidents. If that's lying then good man you nailed me.
Or are you saying I am lying about the discussion happening?
/Jim.
Twist all you can Murph but Sands was not charged or sentenced for any sectarian offence so your arguement is a lie.Then again that is the norm for Lundys like you.
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 02:29:29 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 08, 2012, 02:20:17 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 02:02:51 PM
It is strange though that his own comrades initially baulked at nominating him as lead hunger striker due to the sectarian nature of the offence for which he was convicted.
So you were trying to say that possession of a gun allegedly used in an attack on the RUC was sectarian. ;D ;DYeah right.
The gun that was in the car was used in a gunfight by a gang that bombed a furniture store. I see a linkage, not three stand alone incidents. If that's lying then good man you nailed me.
Or are you saying I am lying about the discussion happening?
/Jim.
Twist all you can Murph but Sands was not charged or sentenced for any sectarian offence so your arguement is a lie.Then again that is the norm for Lundys like you.
As Bobby Sands' death predates the charge of "religiously aggravated hatred" by quite a few years, nobody was guilty of sectarian crimes at the time.
Quote from: glens abu on March 08, 2012, 02:29:29 PM
Twist all you can Murph but Sands was not charged or sentenced for any sectarian offence so your arguement is a lie.Then again that is the norm for Lundys like you.
I'm not twisting anything. I'm saying that I believe that firebombing that furniture store was sectarian. You are jumping from saying it wasn't to Sands had nothing to do with it (or least wasn't charged/sentenced for it) to saying it wasn't sectarian.
I'm also saying that I read the book "Ten men dead" where the author said that there was discussion among the IRA leadership as to whether Sands would be a good candidate for strike leader because the Dunmurry incident was seen as sectarian and he was seen to be associated with it.
The former a belief/opinion the other a statement of what I read.
Where am I twisting things?
I know how republicans see Sands but why can't you open your eyes to other peoples perceptions?
/Jim
Monday 9th
I have left this rather late tonight and it is cold. The priest Fr Murphy was in. I had a discussion with him on the situation. He said he enjoyed our talk and was somewhat enlightened, when he was leaving.
On the subject of priests, I received a small note from a Fr S. C. from Tralee, Kerry, and some holy pictures of Our Lady. The thought touched me. If it is the same man, I recall him giving a lecture to us in Cage 11 some years ago on the right to lift arms in defence of the freedom of one's occupied and oppressed nation. Preaching to the converted he was, but it all helps.
It is my birthday and the boys are having a sing-song for me, bless their hearts. I braved it to the door, at their request, to make a bit of a speech, for what it was worth. I wrote to several friends today including Bernie and my mother. I feel all right and my weight is 60 kgs.
I always keep thinking of James Connolly, and the great calm and dignity that he showed right to his very end, his courage and resolve. Perhaps I am biased, because there have been thousands like him but Connolly has always been the man that I looked up to.
I always have tremendous feeling for Liam Mellowes as well; and for the present leadership of the Republican Movement, and a confidence in them that they will always remain undaunted and unchanged. And again, dare I forget the Irish people of today, and the risen people of the past, they too hold a special place in my heart.
Well, I have gotten by twenty-seven years, so that is something. I may die, but the Republic of 1916 will never die. Onward to the Republic and liberation of our people.
Tuesday 10th
It has been a fairly normal day in my present circumstances. My weight is 59. 3 kgs. and I have no medical problems. I have seen some birthday greetings from relatives and friends in yesterday's paper which I got today. Also I received a bag of toiletries today.
There is no priest in tonight, but the chief medical officer dropped in, took my pulse, and left. I suppose that makes him feel pretty important.
From what I have read in the newspapers I am becoming increasingly worried and wary of the fact that there could quite well be an attempt at a later date to pull the carpet from under our feet and undermine us — if not defeat this hunger-strike — with the concession bid in the form of 'our own clothes as a right'.
This, of course, would solve nothing. But if allowed birth could, with the voice of the Catholic hierarchy, seriously damage our position. It is my opinion that under no circumstances do they wish to see the prisoners gain political status, or facilities that resemble, or afford us with the contents of, political status.
The reasons for this are many and varied, primarily motivated by the wish to see the revolutionary struggle of the people brought to an end. The criminalisation of Republican prisoners would help to furnish this end.
It is the declared wish of these people to see humane and better conditions in these Blocks. But the issue at stake is not 'humanitarian', nor about better or improved living conditions. It is purely political and only a political solution will solve it. This in no way makes us prisoners elite nor do we (nor have we at any time) purport to be elite.
We wish to be treated 'not as ordinary prisoners' for we are not criminals. We admit no crime unless, that is, the love of one's people and country is a crime.
Would Englishmen allow Germans to occupy their nation or Frenchmen allow Dutchmen to do likewise? We Republican prisoners understand better than anyone the plight of all prisoners who are deprived of their liberty. We do not deny ordinary prisoners the benefit of anything that we gain that may improve and make easier their plight. Indeed, in the past, all prisoners have gained from the resistance of Republican jail struggles.
I recall the Fenians and Tom Clarke, who indeed were most instrumental in highlighting by their unflinching resistance the 'terrible silent system' in the Victorian period in English prisons. In every decade there has been ample evidence of such gains to all prisoners due to Republican prisoners' resistance.
Unfortunately, the years, the decades, and centuries, have not seen an end to Republican resistance in English hell-holes, because the struggle in the prisons goes hand-in-hand with the continuous freedom struggle in Ireland. Many Irishmen have given their lives in pursuit of this freedom and I know that more will, myself included, until such times as that freedom is achieved.
I am still awaiting some sort of move from my cell to an empty wing and total isolation. The last strikers were ten days in the wings with the boys, before they were moved. But then they were on the no-wash protest and in filthy cells. My cell is far from clean but tolerable. The water is always cold. I can't risk the chance of cold or 'flu. It is six days since I've had a bath, perhaps longer. No matter.
Tomorrow is the eleventh day and there is a long way to go. Someone should write a poem of the tribulations of a hunger-striker. I would like to, but how could I finish it.
Caithfidh mé a dul mar tá tuirseach ag eirí ormsa.
(Translated, this reads as follows):
Must go as I'm getting tired.
Wednesday 11th
I received a large amount of birthday cards today. Some from people I do not know. In particular a Mass bouquet with fifty Masses on it from Mrs Burns from Sevastopol Street. We all know of her, she never forgets us and we shan't forget her, bless her dear heart.
I also received a card from reporter Brendan O Cathaoir, which indeed was thoughtful. I received a letter from a friend, and from a student in America whom I don't know, but again it's good to know that people are thinking of you. There were some smuggled letters as well from my friends and comrades.
I am the same weight today and have no complaints medically. Now and again I am struck by the natural desire to eat but the desire to see an end to my comrades' plight and the liberation of my people is overwhelmingly greater.
The doctor will be taking a blood test tomorrow. It seems that Dr Ross has disappeared and Dr Emerson is back...
Again, there has been nothing outstanding today except that I took a bath this morning. I have also been thinking of my family and hoping that they are not suffering too much.
I was trying to piece together a quote from James Connolly today which I'm ashamed that I did not succeed in doing but I'll paraphrase the meagre few lines I can remember.
They go something like this: a man who is bubbling over with enthusiasm (or patriotism) for his country, who walks through the streets among his people, their degradation, poverty, and suffering, and who (for want of the right words) does nothing, is, in my mind, a fraud; for Ireland distinct from its people is but a mass of chemical elements.
Perhaps the stark poverty of Dublin in 1913 does not exist today, but then again, in modern day comparison to living standards in other places through the world, it could indeed be said to be the same if not worse both North and South. Indeed, one thing has not changed, that is the economic, cultural and physical oppression of the same Irish people...
Even should there not be 100,000 unemployed in the North, their pittance of a wage would look shame in the company of those whose wage and profit is enormous, the privileged and capitalist class who sleep upon the people's wounds, and sweat, and toils.
Total equality and fraternity cannot and never will be gained whilst these parasites dominate and rule the lives of a nation. There is no equality in a society that stands upon the economic and political bog if only the strongest make it good or survive. Compare the lives, comforts, habits, wealth of all those political conmen (who allegedly are concerned for us, the people) with that of the wretchedly deprived and oppressed.
Compare it in any decade in history, compare it tomorrow, in the future, and it will mock you. Yet our perennial blindness continues. There are no luxuries in the H-Blocks. But there is true concern for the Irish people.
Are you copying entire extracts from a book or something Glens and not a reference or acknowledgement in sight.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 11, 2012, 12:27:10 PM
Are you copying entire extracts from a book or something Glens and not a reference or acknowledgement in sight.
It's from the Diary of Bobby Sands.
I thought you knew that all along.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 11, 2012, 12:27:10 PM
Are you copying entire extracts from a book or something Glens and not a reference or acknowledgement in sight.
Sorry Mayo thought you knew that I was copying Bobby Sands diary as you will see on page 15 when I copied the 1st page.
Quote from: theticklemister on March 08, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 06, 2012, 07:10:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 06, 2012, 08:46:54 AM
Friday 6th
There was no priest in last night or tonight. They stopped me from seeing my solicitor tonight, as another part of the isolation process, which, as time goes by, they will ruthlessly implement. I expect they may move me sooner than expected to an empty wing. I will be sorry to leave the boys, but I know the road is a hard one and everything must be conquered.
I have felt the loss of energy twice today, and I am feeling slightly weak.
They (the Screws) are unembarrassed by the enormous amount of food they are putting into the cell and I know they have every bean and chip counted or weighed. The damned fools don't realise that the doctor does tests for traces of any food eaten. Regardless, I have no intention of sampling their tempting morsels.
I am sleeping well at night so far, as I avoid sleeping during the day. I am even having pleasant dreams and so far no headaches. Is that a tribute to my psychological frame of mind or will I pay for that tomorrow or later! I wonder how long I will be able to keep these scribbles going?
My friend Jennifer got twenty years. I am greatly distressed. (Twenty-one-year-old Jennifer McCann, from Belfast's Twinbrook estate, was sentenced to twenty years' imprisonment for shooting at an RUC man).
I have no doubts or regrets about what I am doing for I know what I have faced for eight years, and in particular for the last four and-a-half years, others will face, young lads and girls still at school, or young Gerard or Kevin (Bobby's son and nephew, respectively) and thousands of others.
They will not criminalise us, rob us of our true identity, steal our individualism, depoliticise us, churn us out as systemised, institutionalised, decent law-abiding robots. Never will they label our liberation struggle as criminal.
I am (even after all the torture) amazed at British logic. Never in eight centuries have they succeeded in breaking the spirit of one man who refused to be broken. They have not dispirited, conquered, nor demoralised my people, nor will they ever.
I may be a sinner, but I stand — and if it so be, will die — happy knowing that I do not have to answer for what these people have done to our ancient nation.
Thomas Clarke is in my thoughts, and MacSwiney, Stagg, Gaughan, Thomas Ashe, McCaughey. Dear God, we have so many that another one to those knaves means nothing, or so they say, for some day they'll pay.
When I am thinking of Clarke, I thought of the time I spent in 'B' wing in Crumlin Road jail in September and October '77. I realised just what was facing me then. I've no need to record it all, some of my comrades experienced it too, so they know I have been thinking that some people (maybe many people) blame me for this hunger-strike, but I have tried everything possible to avert it short of surrender.
I pity those who say that, because they do not know the British and I feel more the pity for them because they don't even know their poor selves. But didn't we have people like that who sought to accuse Tone, Emmet, Pearse, Connolly, Mellowes: that unfortunate attitude is perennial also...
I can hear the curlew passing overhead. Such a lonely cell, such a lonely struggle. But, my friend, this road is well trod and he, whoever he was, who first passed this way, deserves the salute of the nation. I am but a mere follower and I must say Oíche Mhaith.
If ever you wanted evidence that Sands (or his editors *) already had one eye on his status as republican legend, look no further. The use of a curlew as a poetic device is well documented in Irish literature and Sands (or his editors) slip it in here to signify the loneliness of the long distance hunger striker. The litany of republican martyrs is also no accident: this is a statement designed to place Sands alongside those same martyrs, to link their struggle with his. (This was at a time, remember, when the republican movement was facing mounting criticism from a nationalist community sick of 10 years of atrocities).
* Sands' later communications are significantly better on the grammar front than some of his earlier stuff. In one earlier comm, he says 'I was took to Castlereagh' He also refers to 'them days'. He continues: 'I must have wrote you articles...' Yet by the end, he's waxing on about curlews with hardly a grammatical mistake in sight.
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
You might believe that crap, but those with a more objective view certainly wouldn't. We'll leave aside the fact (as I've pointed out) that there is evidence that someone else may have been involved in the scripting of his 'comms': this a man, remember, who couldn't even spell the name of his old school in his early scripts (Stella Morris, rather than Stella Maris), but who somehow on his death bed started producing grammatically perfect offerings. Odd, don't you think? His 'poetry' is nothing of the sort. It is doggerel, of a standard no better than that produced by most angst-ridden teenagers. Had Sands not been Sands, that stuff would never have seen the light of day. The fact that you think that it somehow deserves a place in the canon of Irish literature suggests to me that you weren't paying much attention in your English Lit classes.
Thursday 12th
Fr Toner was in tonight, and brought me in some religious magazines.
My weight is 58.75 kgs. They did not take a blood sample because they want to incorporate other tests with it. So the doctor says they'll do it next week.
Physically I have felt very tired today, between dinner time and later afternoon. I know I'm getting physically weaker. It is only to be expected. But I'm okay. I'm still getting the papers all right, but there's nothing heartening in them. But again I expect that also and therefore I must depend entirely upon my own heart and resolve, which I will do.
I received three notes from the comrades in Armagh, God bless them again.
I heard of today's announcement that Frank Hughes will be joining me on hunger-strike on Sunday. I have the greatest respect, admiration and confidence in Frank and I know that I am not alone. How could I ever be with comrades like those around me, in Armagh and outside.
I've been thinking of the comrades in Portlaoise, the visiting facilities there are inhuman. No doubt that hell-hole will also eventually explode in due time. I hope not, but Haughey's compassion for the prisoners down there is no different from that of the Brits towards prisoners in the North and in English gaols.
I have come to understand, and with each passing day I understand increasingly more and in the most sad way, that awful fate and torture endured to the very bitter end by Frank Stagg and Michael Gaughan. Perhaps, — indeed yes! — I am more fortunate because those poor comrades were without comrades or a friendly face. They had not even the final consolation of dying in their own land. Irishmen alone and at the unmerciful ugly hands of a vindictive heartless enemy. Dear God, but I am so lucky in comparison.
I have poems in my mind, mediocre no doubt, poems of hunger strike and MacSwiney, and everything that this hunger-strike has stirred up in my heart and in my mind, but the weariness is slowly creeping in, and my heart is willing but my body wants to be lazy, so I have decided to mass all my energy and thoughts into consolidating my resistance.
That is most important. Nothing else seems to matter except that lingering constant reminding thought, 'Never give up'. No matter how bad, how black, how painful, how heart-breaking, 'Never give up', 'Never despair', 'Never lose hope'. Let them bastards laugh at you all they want, let them grin and jibe, allow them to persist in their humiliation, brutality, deprivations, vindictiveness, petty harassments, let them laugh now, because all of that is no longer important or worth a response.
I am making my last response to the whole vicious inhuman atrocity they call H-Block. But, unlike their laughs and jibes, our laughter will be the joy of victory and the joy of the people, our revenge will be the liberation of all and the final defeat of the oppressors of our aged nation.
Quote from: glens abu on March 09, 2012, 08:42:20 AM
Monday 9th
I always have tremendous feeling for... ... the present leadership of the Republican Movement, and a confidence in them that they will always remain undaunted and unchanged.
I may die, but the Republic of 1916 will never die. Onward to the Republic and liberation of our people.
So as well as being a Terrorist, a Fanatic and a mediocre Poet, poor Jimmy was also a deluded Fool.
You know, I could almost feel sorry for him - were he not a Terrorist, a Fanatic and a mediocre Poet... ::)
Quote from: glens abu on March 12, 2012, 08:35:02 AM
Thursday 12th
....Let them b**tards laugh at you all they want, let them grin and jibe, allow them to persist in their .....vindictiveness, petty harassments, let them laugh now, because all of that is no longer important or worth a response.
A true statement, relevant even in this thread, Glensabu.
They never lived to see Rangers bankrupted.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 12, 2012, 11:09:14 AM
Quote from: glens abu on March 12, 2012, 08:35:02 AM
Thursday 12th
....Let them b**tards laugh at you all they want, let them grin and jibe, allow them to persist in their .....vindictiveness, petty harassments, let them laugh now, because all of that is no longer important or worth a response.
A true statement, relevant even in this thread, Glensabu.
Yeah and its great to see that his writings are being read by many on here even those who profess to hate him,thats the effect great men have on others. ;)
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 12, 2012, 11:09:14 AM
Quote from: glens abu on March 12, 2012, 08:35:02 AM
Thursday 12th
....Let them b**tards laugh at you all they want, let them grin and jibe, allow them to persist in their .....vindictiveness, petty harassments, let them laugh now, because all of that is no longer important or worth a response.
A true statement, relevant even in this thread, Glensabu.
'Them bastards'. I rest my case.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 07, 2012, 11:14:49 PM
Quote from: glens abu on February 23, 2012, 01:46:34 PM
Great how they will always be remembered even in other countries.
This week Florence City Council voted to name a street after Bobby Sands who died on hunger strike in 1981 fighting for political status. There was a discussion and when it came to a vote 33 city councillors out of 34 voted in favour of the street naming and there was just one abstention.
There were three other streets newly named after Oriana Fallaci, a well-known journalist and writer from Florence; Ilaria Alpi, a brave young journalist killed in an ambush in Mogadishu, Somalia; and world-renowned Italian film director Mario Monicelli.
Irish republican supporters hope that the move will encourage other municipalities to act and honour Bobby Sands and his comrades in similar ways.
Patsy O'Hara Place, Auckland, New Zealand:
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/430052_372699606087773_165309353493467_1310970_1968735084_n.jpg)
Bobby Sands Circle, Maple Avenue, Hartford, Connecticut:
(http://hartford.homestead.com/files/hungerstrikermemorial.jpg)
How is Sands keeping these days?
Friday 13th
I'm not superstitious, and it was an uneventful day today. I feel all right, and my weight is 58.5 kgs.
I was not so tired today, but my back gets sore now and again sitting in the bed. I didn't get the Irish News, which makes me think there is probably something in it that they don't wish me to see, but who cares. Fr Murphy was in tonight for a few minutes.
The Screws had a quick look around my cell today when I was out getting water. They are always snooping. I heard reports of men beaten up during a wing shift ...
Nothing changes here.
Sean McKenna (the former hunger-striker) is back in H-4, apparently still a bit shaky but alive and still recovering, and hopefully he will do so to the full.
Mhúscail mé leis an gealbháin ar maidin agus an t-aon smaointe amháin i mo cheann - seo chugat lá eile a Roibeard. Cuireann é sin amhran a scríobh mé; bhfad ó shin i ndúil domsa.
Seo é cib é ar bith.
D' éirigh mé ar maidin mar a tháinig an coimheádóir,
Bhuail sé mo dhoras go trom's gan labhairt.
Dhearc mé ar na ballai, 'S shíl mé nach raibh mé beo,
Tchítear nach n-imeoidh an t-iffrean seo go deo.
D'oscail an doras 's níor druideadh é go ciúin,
Ach ba chuma ar bith mar nach raibheamar inár suan.
Chuala mé éan 's ni fhaca mé geal an lae,
Is mian mór liom go raibh me go doimhin foai,
Ca bhfuil mo smaointi ar laethe a chuaigh romhainn,
S cá bhfuil an tsaol a smaoin mé abhí sa domhain,
Ni chluintear mo bhéic, 's ní fheictear mar a rith mo dheor,
Nuair a thigeann ar lá aithíocfaidh mé iad go mor.
Canaim é sin leis an phort Siun Ní Dhuibir.
Translated this reads as follows:
I awoke with the sparrows this morning and the only thought in my head was: here comes another day, Bobby — reminding me of a song I once wrote a long time ago.
This is it anyway:
I arose this morning as the Screw came,
He thumped my door heavily without speaking,
I stared at the walls, and thought I was dead,
It seems that this hell will never depart.
The door opened and it wasn't closed gently,
But it didn't really matter, we weren't asleep.
I heard a bird and yet didn't see the dawn of day,
Would that I were deep in the earth.
Where are my thoughts of days gone by,
And where is the life I once thought was in the world.
My cry is unheard and my tears flowing unseen,
When our day comes I shall repay them dearly.
I sing this to the tune Siun Ní Dhuibir.
Bhí na heiníní ag ceiliúracht inniú. Chaith ceann de na buachaillí arán amach as an fhuinneog, ar a leghad bhí duine éigin ag ithe. Uaigneach abhí mé ar feadh tamaill ar tráthnóna beag inniú ag éisteacht leis na préacháin ag screadáil agus ag teacht abhaile daobhtha. Dá gcluinfinn an fhuiseog álainn, brisfeadh sí mo chroí.
Anois mar a scríobhaim tá an corrcrothar ag caoineadh mar a théann siad tharam. Is maith liom na heiníní.
Bhuel caithfidh mé a dul mar má scríobhain níos mó ar na heiníní seo beidh mo dheora ag rith 's rachaidh mo smaointi ar ais chuig, an t-am nuair abhí mé ógánach, b'iad na laennta agus iad imithe go deo anois, ach thaitin siad liom agus ar a laghad níl dearmad deánta agam orthu, ta siad i mo chroí — oíche mhaith anois.
(Translated, this reads as follows:)
The birds were singing today. One of the boys threw bread out of the window. At least somebody was eating!
I was lonely for a while this evening, listening to the crows caw as they returned home. Should I hear the beautiful lark, she would rent my heart. Now, as I write, the odd curlew mournfully calls as they fly over. I like the birds.
Well, I must leave off, for if I write more about the birds my tears will fall and my thoughts return to the days of my youth.
They were the days, and gone forever now. But I enjoyed them. They are in my heart — good night, now.
Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 08:26:30 AMI was lonely for a while this evening, listening to the crows caw as they returned home. Should I hear the beautiful lark, she would rent my heart.
"Rent"?
And he'll not hear any Larks singing at night, either...
Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 08:26:30 AMNow, as I write, the odd curlew mournfully calls as they fly over. I like the birds.
I grew up in a house next to a field where Curlews nested. Since they are ground-nesting, to avoid drawing attention to themselves, they only call when flying very high up in the sky (like the lark, btw). I don't ever recall it being possible to hear them from inside the house.
More significantly, whilst Curlews nest on inland moors and bogs etc, in the winter they migrate to the coast, where the temperature is slightly warmer and the ground/shore isn't likely to be frozen over, thereby permitting continued access to their diet of insects, grubs, crustacea etc. So even if they did live in the vicinity of the Maze, I doubt they'd be back to nest much before April.
Perhaps it was the sound of the traffic from the M1 which Jimmy was hearing?
Saturday 14th
Again, another uneventful somewhat boring day. My weight is 58.25 kgs, and no medical complaints. I read the papers, which are full of trash.
Tonight's tea was pie and beans, and although hunger may fuel my imagination (it looked a powerful-sized meal), I don't exaggerate: the beans were nearly falling off the plate. If I said this all the time to the lads, they would worry about me, but I'm all right.
It was inviting (I'm human too) and I was glad to see it leave the cell. Never would I have touched it, but it was a starving nuisance. Ha! My God, if it had have attacked, I'd have fled.
I was going to write about a few things I had in my head but they'll wait. I am looking forward to the brief company of all the lads at Mass tomorrow. You never know when it could be the last time that you may ever see them again.
I smoked some cigarettes today. We still defeat them in this sphere. If the Screws only knew the half of it; the ingenuity of the POW is something amazing. The worse the situation the greater the ingenuity. Someday it may all be revealed.
On a personal note, Liam Og (the pseudonym for Bobby Sands' Republican Movement contact on the outside), I just thought I'd take this opportunity tonight of saying to your good hard-working self that I admire you all out there and the unselfish work that you all do and have done in the past, not just for the H-Blocks and Armagh, but for the struggle in general.
I have always taken a lesson from something that was told me by a sound man, that is, that everyone, Republican or otherwise, has his own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something.
There is that much to be done that no select or small portion of people can do, only the greater mass of the Irish nation will ensure the achievement of the Socialist Republic, and that can only be done by hard work and sacrifice.
So, mo chara, for what it's worth, I would like to thank you all for what you have done and I hope many others follow your example, and I'm deeply proud to have known you all and prouder still to call you comrades and friends.
On a closing note, I've noticed the Screws have been really slamming the cell doors today, in particular my own. Perhaps a good indication of the mentality of these people, always vindictive, always full of hate. I'm glad to say that I am not like that.
Well, I must go to rest up as I found it tiring trying to comb my hair today after a bath.
So venceremos, beidh bua againn eigin la eigin. Sealadaigh abu.
(Translated, this reads as follows:)
So venceremos, we will be victorious someday. Up the Provos.
Sunday 15th
Frank has now joined me on the hunger-strike. I saw the boys at Mass today which I enjoyed. Fr Toner said Mass.
Again it was a pretty boring day. I had a bit of trouble to get slopped out tonight and to get water.
I have a visit tomorrow and it will be good to see my family. I am also looking forward to the walk in the fresh air, it will tire me out, but I hope the weather is good. I must go.
Quote from: Evil Genius on March 13, 2012, 01:48:26 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 08:26:30 AMI was lonely for a while this evening, listening to the crows caw as they returned home. Should I hear the beautiful lark, she would rent my heart.
"Rent"?
And he'll not hear any Larks singing at night, either...
Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 08:26:30 AMNow, as I write, the odd curlew mournfully calls as they fly over. I like the birds.
I grew up in a house next to a field where Curlews nested. Since they are ground-nesting, to avoid drawing attention to themselves, they only call when flying very high up in the sky (like the lark, btw). I don't ever recall it being possible to hear them from inside the house.
More significantly, whilst Curlews nest on inland moors and bogs etc, in the winter they migrate to the coast, where the temperature is slightly warmer and the ground/shore isn't likely to be frozen over, thereby permitting continued access to their diet of insects, grubs, crustacea etc. So even if they did live in the vicinity of the Maze, I doubt they'd be back to nest much before April.
Perhaps it was the sound of the traffic from the M1 which Jimmy was hearing?
We have curlews nesting at a bog near to my home, and they have been back for the last few weeks. Can hear their calls plain as day from inside our house. A wonderful sound it is too.
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on March 15, 2012, 10:38:03 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on March 13, 2012, 01:48:26 PM
Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 08:26:30 AMI was lonely for a while this evening, listening to the crows caw as they returned home. Should I hear the beautiful lark, she would rent my heart.
"Rent"?
And he'll not hear any Larks singing at night, either...
Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 08:26:30 AMNow, as I write, the odd curlew mournfully calls as they fly over. I like the birds.
I grew up in a house next to a field where Curlews nested. Since they are ground-nesting, to avoid drawing attention to themselves, they only call when flying very high up in the sky (like the lark, btw). I don't ever recall it being possible to hear them from inside the house.
More significantly, whilst Curlews nest on inland moors and bogs etc, in the winter they migrate to the coast, where the temperature is slightly warmer and the ground/shore isn't likely to be frozen over, thereby permitting continued access to their diet of insects, grubs, crustacea etc. So even if they did live in the vicinity of the Maze, I doubt they'd be back to nest much before April.
Perhaps it was the sound of the traffic from the M1 which Jimmy was hearing?
We have curlews nesting at a bog near to my home, and they have been back for the last few weeks. Can hear their calls plain as day from inside our house. A wonderful sound it is too.
+1
If you're going to be a pedantic twat, at least be correct.
glens abu, thoroughly enjoying the updates from Bobby Sands' diary. Keep them coming.
Unfortunately there's only two more days of it. His last diary entry was on the St. Patrick's Day.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/428747_10150883385709465_779454464_12891122_1209807849_n.jpg)
Vol Francis Hughes....
Started his Hunger Strike on this day in 1981.
Monday 16th
I had a wonderful visit today with my mother, father and Marcella. Wonderful, considering the circumstances and the strain which indeed they are surely under.
As I expected, I received a lot of verbal flak from Screws going and coming from the actual visit. Their warped sense of humour was evident in their childish taunts, etcetera.
I wrapped myself up well to keep me from the cold. My weight is 58.25 kgs today, but I burnt up more energy today with the visit. I've no complaints of any nature.
I've noticed the orderlies are substituting slices of bread for bits of cake, etcetera — stealing the sweet things (which are rare anyway) for themselves. I don't know whether it's a case of 'How low can you get?' or 'Well, could you blame them?' But they take their choice and fill of the food always, so it's the former.
They left my supper in tonight when the priest (Fr Murphy) was in. There were two bites out of the small doughy bun. I ask you!
I got the Sunday World newspaper; papers have been scarce for the past few days.
There is a certain Screw here who has taken it upon himself to harass me to the very end and in a very vindictive childish manner. It does not worry me, the harassment, but his attitude aggravates me occasionally. It is one thing to torture, but quite a different thing to exact enjoyment from it, that's his type.
There was no mirror search going out to visits today — a pleasant change. Apparently, with the ending of the no-wash protest, the mercenary Screws have lost all their mercenary bonuses, etcetera, notwithstanding that they are also losing overtime and so on. So, not to be outdone, they aren't going to carry out the mirror search any more, and its accompanying brutality, degradation, humiliation, etcetera.
Why! Because they aren't being paid for it!
I'm continually wrapped up in blankets, but find it hard to keep my feet warm. It doesn't help my body temperature, drinking pints of cold water. I'm still able to take the salt and five or six pints of water per day without too much discomfort.
The books that are available to me are trash. I'm going to ask for a dictionary tomorrow. I'd just sit and flick through that and learn, much more preferable to reading rubbish.
The English rag newspapers I barely read, perhaps flick through them and hope that no one opens the door. A copy of last week's AP/RN was smuggled in and was read out last night (ingenuity of POWs again). I enjoyed listening to its contents (faultless - get off them ! - good lad Danny (Morrison)). I truly hope that the people read, take in and understand at least some of the truths that are to be regularly found in it. I see Paddy Devlin is at his usual tricks, and won't come out and support the prisoners...
Well, that's it for tonight. I must go. Oíche Mhaith.
The last entry in Bobby's diary.
Tuesday 17th
Lá Pádraig inniú 's mar is gnách níor thárla aon rud suntasach, bhí mé ar aifreann agus mo chuid gruaige gearrtha agam níos gaire, agus é i bhfad níos fearr freisin. Sagart nach raibh ar mo aithne abhí ag rá ran aifreann.
Bhí na giollaí ag tabhairt an bhia amach do chách abhí ag teacht ar ais ón aifreann. Rinneadh iarracht chun tabhairt pláta bidh domhsa. Cuireadh ós cómhair m'aghaidh ach shiúl mé ar mo shlí mar is nach raibh aon duine ann.
Fuair mé cúpla nuachtán inniú agus mar shaghas malairt bhí an Nuacht na hEireann ann. Táim ag fáil pé an scéal atá le fáil óna buachaillí cibé ar bith.
Choniac mé ceann dona dochtúirí ar maidun agus é gan béasaí. Cuireann sé tuirse ormsa. Bhí mo chuid meachain 57.50 kgs. Ní raibh aon ghearán agam.
Bhí oifigcach isteach liom agus thug sé beagán íde béil domhsa. Arsa sé 'tchim go bhfuil tú ag léigheadh leabhar gairid. Rudmaith nach leabhar fada é mar ní chrlochnóidh tú é'.
Sin an saghas daoine atá iontu. Ploid orthu. Is cuma liom. Lá fadálach ab ea é. Bhí mé ag smaoineamh inniú ar an chéalacán seo. Deireann daoine a lán faoin chorp ach ní chuireann muinín sa chorp ar bith. Measaim ceart go leor go bhfuil saghas troda.
An dtús ní ghlacann leis an chorp an easpaidh bidh, is fulaingíonn sé ón chathú bith, is greithe airithe eile a bhíonn ag síorchlipeadh an choirp. Troideann an corp ar ais ceart go leor, ach deireadh an lae; téann achan rud ar ais chuig an phríomhrud, is é sin an mheabhair.
Is é an mheabhair an rud is tábhachtaí. Mura bhfuil meabhair láidir agat chun cur in aghaidh le achan rud, ní mhairfidh. Ní bheadh aon sprid troda agat. Is ansin cen áit as a dtigeann an mheabhair cheart seo. B'fhéidir as an fhonn saoirse.
Ní hé cinnte gurb é an áit as a dtigeann sé. Mura bhfuil siad in inmhe an fonn saoirse a scriosadh, ní bheadh siad in inmhe tú féin a bhriseadh. Ní bhrisfidh siad mé mar tá an fonn saoirse, agus saoirse mhuintir na hEireann i mo chroí.
Tiocfaidh lá éigin nuair a bheidh an fonn saoirse seo le taispeáint ag daoine go léir na hEireann ansin tchífidh muid éirí na gealaí.
(Translated, this reads as follows:)
St Patrick's Day today and, as usual, nothing noticeable. I was at Mass, my hair cut shorter and much better also. I didn't know the priest who said Mass.
The orderlies were giving out food to all who were returning from Mass. They tried to give me a plate of food. It was put in front of my face but I continued on my way as though nobody was there.
I got a couple of papers today, and as a kind of change the Irish News was there. I'm getting any news from the boys anyway.
I saw one of the doctors this morning, an ill-mannered sort. It tries me. My weight was 57.70 kgs. I had no complaints.
An official was in with me and gave me some lip. He said, 'I see you're reading a short book. It's a good thing it isn't a long one for you won't finish it.'
That's the sort of people they are. Curse them! I don't care. It's been a long day.
I was thinking today about the hunger-strike. People say a lot about the body, but don't trust it. I consider that there is a kind of fight indeed. Firstly the body doesn't accept the lack of food, and it suffers from the temptation of food, and from other aspects which gnaw at it perpetually.
The body fights back sure enough, but at the end of the day everything returns to the primary consideration, that is, the mind. The mind is the most important.
But then where does this proper mentality stem from? Perhaps from one's desire for freedom. It isn't certain that that's where it comes from.
If they aren't able to destroy the desire for freedom, they won't break you. They won't break me because the desire for freedom, and the freedom of the Irish people, is in my heart. The day will dawn when all the people of Ireland will have the desire for freedom to show
Justothers Day,Bobby's poem for his Mum
Dear Mum
Dear Mum, I know you're always there
To help and guide me with all your care,
You nursed and fed me and made me strong
To face the world and all its wrong.
What can I write to you this day
For a line or two would never pay
For care and time you gave to me
Through long hard years unceasingly.
How you found strength I do not know
How you managed I'll never know,
Struggling and striving without a break
Always there and never late.
You prayed for me and loved me more
How could I ask for anymore
And reared me up to be like you
But I haven't a heart as kind as you.
A guide to me in times of plight
A princess like a star so bright
For life would never have been the same
If I hadn't of learned what small things came.
So forgive me Mum just a little more
For not loving you so much before,
For life and love you gave to me
I give my thanks for eternity
I can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
Quote from: Hardy on March 18, 2012, 02:27:12 PM
I can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
+1
QuoteI can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
Thankfully your forgiveness is not what he required when he gave his life for what he believed in
But just what is it you overlooked that is more forgivable?
Quote from: Windmill abu on March 18, 2012, 11:29:45 PM
QuoteI can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
Thankfully your forgiveness is not what he required when he gave his life for what he believed in
But just what is it you overlooked that is more forgivable?
He was prepared to sacrifice his own life, but he was also prepared to put at risk and take the lives of others for what he believed in. That puts him in the same category as suicide bombers. He was a fanatic, in other words. All the attempts by the republican PR machine to spruce up his childish and banal literary efforts and so turn him into a 'warrior-poet' in the eyes of the gullible can't hide that.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 19, 2012, 07:21:56 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on March 18, 2012, 11:29:45 PM
QuoteI can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
Thankfully your forgiveness is not what he required when he gave his life for what he believed in
But just what is it you overlooked that is more forgivable?
He was prepared to sacrifice his own life, but he was also prepared to put at risk and take the lives of others for what he believed in. That puts him in the same category as suicide bombers. He was a fanatic, in other words. All the attempts by the republican PR machine to spruce up his childish and banal literary efforts and so turn him into a 'warrior-poet' in the eyes of the gullible can't hide that.
+1
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 19, 2012, 07:21:56 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on March 18, 2012, 11:29:45 PM
QuoteI can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
Thankfully your forgiveness is not what he required when he gave his life for what he believed in
But just what is it you overlooked that is more forgivable?
He was prepared to sacrifice his own life, but he was also prepared to put at risk and take the lives of others for what he believed in. That puts him in the same category as suicide bombers. He was a fanatic, in other words. All the attempts by the republican PR machine to spruce up his childish and banal literary efforts and so turn him into a 'warrior-poet' in the eyes of the gullible can't hide that.
Be fair, Myles, we may always have known that one man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter, but only Jimmy's Diary could teach us that one man's McGonagall is another man's Yeats...
There was a young volunteer from Poleglass,
Whose poems were always, like, dead class,
And anyone who doesn't know it,
That Jimmy was a real poet,
Can shove it right up his ass, understand wee man?"
19 March 1981
Gerry Rowland (40) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while travelling in car with off duty Ulster Defence Regiment member, near Crossmaglen, County Armagh.
Not known to be interested in Poetry, Ornithology or Fire Bombing Shops etc, so not important... ::)
Quote from: Hardy on March 18, 2012, 02:27:12 PM
I can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
Ahem Hardy, such ignorance was already put to bed (categorically) on this thread:
Quote from: theticklemister on March 08, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
So you consider yourself a Lundy/West Brit etc.. etc... for using the word "doggerel" with respect to a man in the pantheon of the greats along with Yeats and Kavanagh.
Shame!
/Jim.
Cheers for all the updates Glens abu, much appreciated
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on March 20, 2012, 11:41:20 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 18, 2012, 02:27:12 PM
I can overlook a lot of things, but doggerel like that is unforgivable.
Ahem Hardy, such ignorance was already put to bed (categorically) on this thread:
Quote from: theticklemister on March 08, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
If you read through the works of Bobby Sands it is clearly to be seen that he is a poet and scholar. His work is one of the finest this country had ever seen but due to the fact that he was a Republican during this time of struggle his true place in Irish literature history will never be accepted.
So you consider yourself a Lundy/West Brit etc.. etc... for using the word "doggerel" with respect to a man in the pantheon of the greats along with Yeats and Kavanagh.
w
Shame!
/Jim.
Thanks for that, Jim. Of course I didn't realise I was traducing the work of "one of the finest this country produced". By way of recompense and in further celebration of sublime poetry let me commend to all our readers the following epic by the great McGonagall, already cited with due reverence in this thread.
The Miraculous Escape of Robert Allan, the Fireman
'Twas in the year of 1888, and on October the fourteenth day,
That a fire broke out in a warehouse, and for hours blazed away;
And the warehouse, now destroyed, was occupied by the Messrs R. Wylie, Hill & Co.,
Situated in Buchanan Street, in the City of Glasgow.
The flames burst forth about three o'clock in the afternoon,
And intimation of the outbreak spread very soon;
And in the spectators' faces were depicted fear and consternation;
While the news flew like lightning to the Fire Brigade Station.
And when the Brigade reached the scene of the fire,
The merciless flames were ascending higher and higher,
Raging furiously in all the floors above the street,
And within twenty minutes the structure was destroyed by the burning heat.
Then the roof fell in, pushing out the front wall,
And the loud crash thereof frightened the spectators one and all,
Because it shook the neighbouring buildings to their foundation,
And caused throughout the City a great sensation.
And several men were injured by the falling wall ,
And as the bystanders gazed thereon, it did their hearts appal;
But the poor fellows bore up bravely, without uttering a moan,
And with all possible speed they were conveyed home.
The firemen tried to play upon the building where the fire originated,
But, alas! their efforts were unfortunately frustrated,
Because they were working the hose pipes in a building occupied by Messrs Smith & Brown,
But the roof was fired, and amongst them it came crashing down.
And miraculously they escaped except one fireman,
The hero of the fire, named Robert Allan,
Who was carried with the debris down to the street floor,
And what he suffered must have been hard to endure.
He travelled to the fire in Buchanan Street,
On the first machine that was ordered, very fleet,
Along with Charles Smith and Dan. Ritchie,
And proceeded to Brown & Smith's buildings that were burning furiously.
And in the third floor of the building he took his stand
Most manfully, without fear, with the hose in his hand,
And played on the fire through a window in the gable
With all his might, the hero, as long as he was able.
And he remained there for about a quarter of an hour,
While from his hose upon the building the water did pour,
When, without the least warning, the floor gave way,
And down he went with it: oh, horror! and dismay!
And with the debris and flooring he got jammed,
But Charlie Smith and Dan. Ritchie quickly planned
To lower down a rope to him, without any doubt,
So, with a long pull and a strong pull, he was dragged out.
He thought he was jammed in for a very long time,
For, instead of being only two hours jammed, he thought 'twas months nine,
But the brave hero kept up his spirits without any dread
Then he was taken home in a cab, and put to bed.
Oh, kind Christians! think of Robert Allan, the heroic man
For he certainly is a hero, deny it who can?
Because, although he was jammed, and in the midst of the flame,
He tells the world fearlessly he felt no pain.
The reason why, good people, he felt no pain
Is because he put his trust in God, to me it seems plain,
And in conclusion, I most earnestly pray,
That we will all put our trust in God, night and day.
And I hope that Robert Allan will do the same,
Because He saved him from being burnt while in the flame;
And all that trust in God will do well,
And be sure to escape the pains of hell.
Quote from: Evil Genius on March 19, 2012, 02:56:16 PM
19 March 1981
Gerry Rowland (40) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while travelling in car with off duty Ulster Defence Regiment member, near Crossmaglen, County Armagh.
Not known to be interested in Poetry, Ornithology or Fire Bombing Shops etc, so not important... ::)
20 March 1981
IRA issue apology for murder of Gerry Rowland.
So that's all right, then... ::)
from Remorse For Intemperate Speech
Out of Ireland have we come.
Great hatred, little room,
Maimed us at the start.
I carry from my mother's womb
A fanatic heart.
William Butler Yeats
I am come of the seed of the people, the people that sorrow;
Who have no treasure but hope,
No riches laid up but a memory of an ancient glory
My mother bore me in bondage, in bondage my mother was born,
I am of the blood of serfs;
The children with whom I have played, the men and women with whom I have eaten
Have had masters over them, have been under the lash of masters,
and though gentle, have served churls.
The hands that have touched mine,
the dear hands whose touch Is familiar to me
Have worn shameful manacles, have been bitten at the wrist by manacles,
have grown hard with the manacles and the task-work of strangers.
I am flesh of the flesh of these lowly, I am bone of their bone I that have never submitted;
I that have a soul greater than the souls of my people's masters,
I that have vision and prophecy, and the gift of fiery speech,
I that have spoken with God on the top of his holy hill.
And because I am of the people, I understand the people,
I am sorrowful with their sorrow, I am hungry with their desire;
My heart is heavy with the grief of mothers,
My eyes have been wet with the tears of children,
I have yearned with old wistful men,
And laughed and cursed with young men;
Their shame is my shame, and I have reddened for it
Reddened for that they have served, they who should be free
Reddened for that they have gone in want, while others have been full,
Reddened for that they have walked in fear of lawyers and their jailors.
With their Writs of Summons and their handcuffs,
Men mean and cruel.
I could have borne stripes on my body
Rather than this shame of my people.
And now I speak, being full of vision:
I speak to my people, and I speak in my people's name to
The masters of my people:
I say to my people that they are holy,
That they are august despite their chains.
That they are greater than those that hold them
And stronger and purer,
That they have but need of courage, and to call on the name of their God,
God the unforgetting, the dear God who loves the people
For whom he died naked, suffering shame.
And I say to my people's masters: Beware
Beware of the thing that is coming, beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give.
Did ye think to conquer the people, or that law is stronger than life,
And than men's desire to be free?
We will try it out with you ye that have harried and held,
Ye that have bullied and bribed.
Tyrants... hypocrites... liars!
Quote from: glens abu on March 20, 2012, 09:36:19 PM
I am come of the seed of the people, the people that sorrow;
Who have no treasure but hope,
No riches laid up but a memory of an ancient glory
My mother bore me in bondage, in bondage my mother was born,
I am of the blood of serfs;
The children with whom I have played, the men and women with whom I have eaten
Have had masters over them, have been under the lash of masters,
and though gentle, have served churls.
The hands that have touched mine,
the dear hands whose touch Is familiar to me
Have worn shameful manacles, have been bitten at the wrist by manacles,
have grown hard with the manacles and the task-work of strangers.
I am flesh of the flesh of these lowly, I am bone of their bone I that have never submitted;
I that have a soul greater than the souls of my people's masters,
I that have vision and prophecy, and the gift of fiery speech,
I that have spoken with God on the top of his holy hill.
And because I am of the people, I understand the people,
I am sorrowful with their sorrow, I am hungry with their desire;
My heart is heavy with the grief of mothers,
My eyes have been wet with the tears of children,
I have yearned with old wistful men,
And laughed and cursed with young men;
Their shame is my shame, and I have reddened for it
Reddened for that they have served, they who should be free
Reddened for that they have gone in want, while others have been full,
Reddened for that they have walked in fear of lawyers and their jailors.
With their Writs of Summons and their handcuffs,
Men mean and cruel.
I could have borne stripes on my body
Rather than this shame of my people.
And now I speak, being full of vision:
I speak to my people, and I speak in my people's name to
The masters of my people:
I say to my people that they are holy,
That they are august despite their chains.
That they are greater than those that hold them
And stronger and purer,
That they have but need of courage, and to call on the name of their God,
God the unforgetting, the dear God who loves the people
For whom he died naked, suffering shame.
And I say to my people's masters: Beware
Beware of the thing that is coming, beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give.
Did ye think to conquer the people, or that law is stronger than life,
And than men's desire to be free?
We will try it out with you ye that have harried and held,
Ye that have bullied and bribed.
Tyrants... hypocrites... liars!
Pearse had much in common with Sands: both dangerous fools, both with literary pretensions but no talent for writing, both revered by the gullible.
Revered by the gullible............... revered by the people of this land who have witnessed the actions that both men (and many more) have taken through centuries of rule from Britain. I feel great shame that people like you dont release the sacrifice these men made and such a role they played in our history.
Reading through your posts it strikes me that in fact you still wish that the 6 counties be contained within the British union, am I correct? Your anti-Republican (in fact pro-Brit) sentiments are something that you are not ashamed to hide on this thread and no matter how you try and blacken the name of Sands and now Pearse your deep hatred of Republican rises to the top and indulges itself onto any person (s) whoever took a stand to free this land from foreign rule. I'm sure you will be having a go at another Republican in the not to distant future.
Quote from: theticklemister on March 20, 2012, 11:27:40 PM
Revered by the gullible............... revered by the people of this land who have witnessed the actions that both men (and many more) have taken through centuries of rule from Britain. I feel great shame that people like you dont release the sacrifice these men made and such a role they played in our history.
Reading through your posts it strikes me that in fact you still wish that the 6 counties be contained within the British union, am I correct? Your anti-Republican (in fact pro-Brit) sentiments are something that you are not ashamed to hide on this thread and no matter how you try and blacken the name of Sands and now Pearse your deep hatred of Republican rises to the top and indulges itself onto any person (s) whoever took a stand to free this land from foreign rule. I'm sure you will be having a go at another Republican in the not to distant future.
Nope, you're way off. Why is our country partitioned? Because of the strategies and actions of dangerous fools like Pearse and Sands. Where would Ireland have been today had it not been for the 1916 uprising and the War of 26 County Independence? Who knows, but we wouldn't be looking at 100 years of partition and a country more firmly and deeply divided politically, socially and economically than its ever been. Revere Patrick Pearse? A man who talked longingly of 'blood sacrifice', a man with an unhealthy interest in young boys, a man in the habit of reverting to baby talk when conversing with his brother, even when in the company of other adults? Do me a favour. I'll leave that for the gullible.
"McIlhatton, you blurt".
.......... Where are your sacks of barley will your likes be seen again.'
Love that song!
Why is our country partioned ye ask?.......... And ye blame Bobby Sands and Padraig Pearse? Enough said.
Quote from: theticklemister on March 21, 2012, 10:12:01 AM
.......... Where are your sacks of barley will your likes be seen again.'
Love that song!
Why is our country partioned ye ask?.......... And ye blame Bobby Sands and Padraig Pearse? Enough said.
If you seriously believe that the person(s) who wrote the lyrics of 'McIlhatton' and 'Back Home in Derry' is/are one and the same as the semi literate writer of that 'poem' for his mother quoted earlier in this thread, then you are even more gullible than I thought.
I blame Pearse and his contemporaries for partition. The very best outcome their strategy of armed rebellion could deliver was always going to be a divided island, given the willingness of nearly 1 million people in the north to resist the idea of an independent Ireland by all means necessary, including force. Sands can't be blamed for partition, but he can be blamed for strengthening it.
Quote from: theticklemister on March 21, 2012, 10:12:01 AM
.......... Where are your sacks of barley will your likes be seen again.'
Love that song!
Why is our country partioned ye ask?.......... And ye blame Bobby Sands and Padraig Pearse? Enough said.
Tickle, there's a few lads who are intent on trolling the thread in the hope of a response and the best they can do is make petty remarks about Bobby Sands' poems and songs. Such attention whores and creetins are best ignored. In the words of Bobby Sands himself, "allow them to persist in their ...vindictiveness and petty harassments, let them laugh now, because all of that is no longer important or worth a response."
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 21, 2012, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on March 21, 2012, 10:12:01 AM
.......... Where are your sacks of barley will your likes be seen again.'
Love that song!
Why is our country partioned ye ask?.......... And ye blame Bobby Sands and Padraig Pearse? Enough said.
Tickle, there's a few lads who are intent on trolling the thread in the hope of a response and the best they can do is make petty remarks about Bobby Sands' poems and songs. Such attention whores and creetins are best ignored. In the words of Bobby Sands himself, "allow them to persist in their ...vindictiveness and petty harassments, let them laugh now, because all of that is no longer important or worth a response."
That would be the same Bobby Sands who couldn't spell the name of the school he attended? The same Bobby Sands who wrote these immortal words:
'A guide to me in times of plight
A princess like a star so bright
For life would never have been the same
If I hadn't of learned what small things came.'
Whenever I read some carefully crafted prose attributed to Sands, I find myself wondering what Danny Morrison is up to these days. You remember Danny, surely. He was SF Director of Publicity and spokesman for Sands during the hunger strike, editor of 'Republican News', regular newspaper columnist and author of 4 or 5 books, current Secretary of the Bobby Sands Trust. A man who gives his occupation as 'writer'. Wonder why he would pop in to my head?
In fairness his actions spoke more than his words.
b]This years Bobby Sands Lecture given by Gerry Kelly MLA
IT IS 31 YEARS since Bobby Sands's death on hunger strike. Not only are there people in this hall who were not born in 1981 but there is a whole generation who, thankfully, did not experience that traumatic period.
Seanna Walsh, a close friend and comrade of Bobby, said last year that people who went through that experience "have an obligation to tell a new generation about it – to ensure that this crucial period in Irish history isn't left to be written by the 'experts' and academics but is actually recounted by the people who lived it".
I agree entirely, because history is not about living in the past but about learning from the past to give us all a better future. And for that we need a true account of history.
What makes Bobby stand out amongst others of his ilk and generation? What makes him the figure that still inspires people in Ireland and in so many other countries around the world – especially those struggling for freedom? To me, essentially it is simply that his words and actions match: that he was a committed activist but, importantly, also a prolific writer. He explained his actions and the actions of his comrades to people and the people understood.
In this it is important to know that he was an ordinary person living in an extraordinary situation. Perhaps to his own surprise, he found the strength, intelligence and commitment to rise to that challenge. Part of that challenge was to lead from the front.
We can follow his life from a Catholic teenager living in the strongly loyalist area of Rathcoole who enjoyed a bit of craic, loved music and kicked football to his prophetic words written in 1979 when he was 25 years old – two years before his death. He wrote: "I find it startling to hear myself say that I am prepared to die first rather than succumb to their oppressive torture and I know that I am not on my own, that many of my comrades hold the same."
I am very proud to come from a community and country that has produced and continues to produce courageous people in abundance. Alongside Bobby Sands there are many – too many – who made the supreme sacrifice for the people of Ireland. But Bobby was like an amalgam of many activists: a bit like a fictional hero that you can add extraordinary powers to – except that he was a real person.
As a teenager he was an active IRA Volunteer fighting against heavily-armed British state forces on the streets of his native Belfast. By the age of 18 he was a political prisoner sentenced to five years' imprisonment. By the end of his sentence he was a musician (thanks in great part to Rab McCullough, another political prisoner). Bobby had also become a writer.
I was transferred back from a jail in England in April 1975 and was in Cage 9 of Long Kesh Prison Camp; Bobby was in Cage 11. At the Christmas concert that year, organised by the prisoners, he and a couple of other musicians were allowed down to Cage 9 for the night. My abiding memory of Bobby is him is singing 'Imagine', the John Lennon song. It is in my head because he sang it with passion and it was obvious his beliefs went far beyond any narrow nationalism. The fact that he also liked Leonard Cohen just adds to his persona to me. He also became a Gaeilgeoir by throwing himself into Irish-language lessons.
He was a voracious reader and learned quickly. On his release in 1976 he put to good use what he had learned from reading about other political struggles throughout the world. In Twinbrook in Belfast, where he then lived, he set about reorganising the local IRA, the Auxiliaries, Na Fianna Éireann and Sinn Féin. He had embraced the fact that any political struggle must go far beyond the cutting edge of armed struggle and so he got involved in taking on the British state in every aspect of life and encouraged others to do the same. He wrote for a local news-sheet and for 'Republican News'.
He also remained an active soldier and after six short months he was back in jail. Having been in prison before, he still saw himself as a political activist and prison as another site of struggle.
He fought the British policy of criminalisation of political prisoners from within the Crumlin Road Jail and then again when he became a 'Blanket Man' in the H-Blocks of Long Kesh.
He used his talent at writing to articulate to the outside world (or to anyone who would listen) the truth of the horrendous and oppressive years of protest and systematic brutality in the H-Blocks. After the 1980 Hunger Strike, British bad faith, double-speak and reneging on agreements, made the second Hunger Strike of 1981 inevitable.
Bobby, who had become the Officer Commanding (O/C) of the republican POWs organised for himself to be the first man on hunger strike. He also arranged for a two-week gap before Francis Hughes and the others joined him on hunger strike. He believed that it was highly likely that he would die but hoped that the British Government would move to resolve the situation before others died.
When it was suggested that Bobby run in the Westminster general election there were many worries and different opinions given. Many thought it might take away from the effect of the street protests that were ongoing or if he was not elected it might do damage to the campaign for political status. It was a huge risk. Modern-day republicanism would be entering unchartered water. Yet when the decision was made to enter the election, activists inside and outside jail, whatever their view, put their full commitment and energies behind the campaign to elect Bobby.
Bobby's historic election to Fermanagh & South Tyrone was not enough to move the British Government on the prisoners' five demands at that time but it was a pivotal moment for the future of Irish republicanism – a turning point of substantial magnitude for all our futures.
In the space of a single decade, Bobby Sands – a long-haired, working-class youngster, little known except to a handful of friends and family – had become a revolutionary, a poet and songster, a socialist, a political prisoner, a hunger striker and an elected Member of Parliament. This kid from Rathcoole had shaken the British Establishment to its foundations.
There was a powerful simplicity in the Hunger Strike. Despite the billions of pounds spent by the British Government on a strategy to defeat a political struggle and ideology through the oppression of political prisoners, they could not answer the simple question being asked in many countries and indeed in many languages: 'Why would anyone go through the horrendous, relentless pain of a prolonged hunger strike to the death if their cause was unjust?'
Bobby, of course, was not alone. Nine other comrades died on hunger strike after him. Michael Gaughan and Frank Stagg died from force-feeding and on hunger strike before him in 1974 and 1976. There are many others who lost their lives in the same way in republican history. But tonight we commemorate Bobby Sands.
It was the David and Goliath battle between a huge and powerful British Government and a strong will in the frail body of a hunger striker that is the enduring image and reality of the 1981 Hunger Strike.
Who of my generation does not remember where they were when they heard of Bobby Sands's death? I was in Cage 9 of Long Kesh, within a few hundred yards of the prison hospital. I remember watching his mother on the news telling the world "My son is dying" just a few short hours before he passed away. I stood amongst comrades in the Nissen hut in absolute silence. We all went with our own thoughts to our prison bunks.
I wrote my thoughts down till the news flash came through that Bobby was dead. It was only months later that I returned to the verses I had written and realised it was more about his mother, Rosaleen, than about Bobby himself. I reduced 20 verses down to four short ones:
Bobby's Mother
Rosaleen Sands
You do not know me
I saw you only
On a television screen
When so reluctantly you announced
"My son is dying"
Standing with such dignity and calm
In the deep well of your grief
I felt an intruder
To your private torment
Witness to a mother's
Naked mourning
Thank you
For allowing us to share
Your precious final moments
With a great man
Bobby Sands came to represent, to symbolise, a generation of Irish republican activists. So unwillingly, unknowingly, his mother Rosaleen Sands became to me, a symbol of what so many families have suffered during that dark period of our history.
I have spoken at many commemorations for comrades, some of whom were also friends or relatives. I have always said that I can't speak for them, that I don't know what they might think tonight or have said had they have been standing here in my place.
However, I do know that we lose many of our best in conflict and for those who survive the duty is to take up their mantle and to lead as best they can in the here and now.
I do know that the Hunger Strike was a political watershed, that it allowed the bulk of republicans to realise that elections are another site of political struggle. I do know that the stronger we are the more we can do to help those who need help most. The stronger we are the closer we get to our primary goal of a united Ireland. I know that, in 1916, republicans used the relevant tools they had at their disposal at that time as they did in the 1970s and in the 1980s after the Hunger Strike period as well.
But today we must also use the relevant tools for the 21st century, for 2012. This isn't 1916 or 1970 or 1980 or 1990 or 2000. We are going from strength to strength, North and South. That we come from and represent our communities is essential to our politics. We have collectively achieved a massive amount. We have collectively much more to achieve.
We would not have got this far without the sacrifice of our fallen comrades. Taking risks has always been one of our strengths.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A video message from Khader Adnan to the families of the Irish Hunger Strikers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loUAwRNbLO8&feature=youtu.be
Also, today marks the 38th anniversary of a great Mayoman, Vol. Michael Gaughan, who died from internal injuries sustained during force feeding on the 64th day of his Hunger Strike in Parkhurst Jail, England.
Take me home to Mayo, across the Irish sea
Home to dear old Mayo, where once I roamed so free
Take me home to Mayo, and let my body lie
Home at last in Mayo, beneath the Irish sky.
My name is Michael Gaughan, from Ballina I came
I saw my people sufferin' and I swore to break their chains
I took the boat to England, prepared to fight or die
Far away from Mayo, beneath an Irish sky.
My body cold and hungry, in Parkhurst Jail I lie
For the loving of my country, on hunger strike I'll die
I have just one last longing, I pray you'll not deny
Take my body home to Mayo, beneath the Irish sky.
Quote from: glens abu on May 09, 2012, 10:04:57 AM
b]This years Bobby Sands Lecture given by Gerry Kelly MLA
IT IS 31 YEARS since Bobby Sands's death on hunger strike. Not only are there people in this hall who were not born in 1981 but there is a whole generation who, thankfully, did not experience that traumatic period.
Seanna Walsh, a close friend and comrade of Bobby, said last year that people who went through that experience "have an obligation to tell a new generation about it – to ensure that this crucial period in Irish history isn't left to be written by the 'experts' and academics but is actually recounted by the people who lived it".
I agree entirely, because history is not about living in the past but about learning from the past to give us all a better future. And for that we need a true account of history.
What makes Bobby stand out amongst others of his ilk and generation? What makes him the figure that still inspires people in Ireland and in so many other countries around the world – especially those struggling for freedom? To me, essentially it is simply that his words and actions match: that he was a committed activist but, importantly, also a prolific writer. He explained his actions and the actions of his comrades to people and the people understood.
In this it is important to know that he was an ordinary person living in an extraordinary situation. Perhaps to his own surprise, he found the strength, intelligence and commitment to rise to that challenge. Part of that challenge was to lead from the front.
We can follow his life from a Catholic teenager living in the strongly loyalist area of Rathcoole who enjoyed a bit of craic, loved music and kicked football to his prophetic words written in 1979 when he was 25 years old – two years before his death. He wrote: "I find it startling to hear myself say that I am prepared to die first rather than succumb to their oppressive torture and I know that I am not on my own, that many of my comrades hold the same."
I am very proud to come from a community and country that has produced and continues to produce courageous people in abundance. Alongside Bobby Sands there are many – too many – who made the supreme sacrifice for the people of Ireland. But Bobby was like an amalgam of many activists: a bit like a fictional hero that you can add extraordinary powers to – except that he was a real person.
As a teenager he was an active IRA Volunteer fighting against heavily-armed British state forces on the streets of his native Belfast. By the age of 18 he was a political prisoner sentenced to five years' imprisonment. By the end of his sentence he was a musician (thanks in great part to Rab McCullough, another political prisoner). Bobby had also become a writer.
I was transferred back from a jail in England in April 1975 and was in Cage 9 of Long Kesh Prison Camp; Bobby was in Cage 11. At the Christmas concert that year, organised by the prisoners, he and a couple of other musicians were allowed down to Cage 9 for the night. My abiding memory of Bobby is him is singing 'Imagine', the John Lennon song. It is in my head because he sang it with passion and it was obvious his beliefs went far beyond any narrow nationalism. The fact that he also liked Leonard Cohen just adds to his persona to me. He also became a Gaeilgeoir by throwing himself into Irish-language lessons.
He was a voracious reader and learned quickly. On his release in 1976 he put to good use what he had learned from reading about other political struggles throughout the world. In Twinbrook in Belfast, where he then lived, he set about reorganising the local IRA, the Auxiliaries, Na Fianna Éireann and Sinn Féin. He had embraced the fact that any political struggle must go far beyond the cutting edge of armed struggle and so he got involved in taking on the British state in every aspect of life and encouraged others to do the same. He wrote for a local news-sheet and for 'Republican News'.
He also remained an active soldier and after six short months he was back in jail. Having been in prison before, he still saw himself as a political activist and prison as another site of struggle.
He fought the British policy of criminalisation of political prisoners from within the Crumlin Road Jail and then again when he became a 'Blanket Man' in the H-Blocks of Long Kesh.
He used his talent at writing to articulate to the outside world (or to anyone who would listen) the truth of the horrendous and oppressive years of protest and systematic brutality in the H-Blocks. After the 1980 Hunger Strike, British bad faith, double-speak and reneging on agreements, made the second Hunger Strike of 1981 inevitable.
Bobby, who had become the Officer Commanding (O/C) of the republican POWs organised for himself to be the first man on hunger strike. He also arranged for a two-week gap before Francis Hughes and the others joined him on hunger strike. He believed that it was highly likely that he would die but hoped that the British Government would move to resolve the situation before others died.
When it was suggested that Bobby run in the Westminster general election there were many worries and different opinions given. Many thought it might take away from the effect of the street protests that were ongoing or if he was not elected it might do damage to the campaign for political status. It was a huge risk. Modern-day republicanism would be entering unchartered water. Yet when the decision was made to enter the election, activists inside and outside jail, whatever their view, put their full commitment and energies behind the campaign to elect Bobby.
Bobby's historic election to Fermanagh & South Tyrone was not enough to move the British Government on the prisoners' five demands at that time but it was a pivotal moment for the future of Irish republicanism – a turning point of substantial magnitude for all our futures.
In the space of a single decade, Bobby Sands – a long-haired, working-class youngster, little known except to a handful of friends and family – had become a revolutionary, a poet and songster, a socialist, a political prisoner, a hunger striker and an elected Member of Parliament. This kid from Rathcoole had shaken the British Establishment to its foundations.
There was a powerful simplicity in the Hunger Strike. Despite the billions of pounds spent by the British Government on a strategy to defeat a political struggle and ideology through the oppression of political prisoners, they could not answer the simple question being asked in many countries and indeed in many languages: 'Why would anyone go through the horrendous, relentless pain of a prolonged hunger strike to the death if their cause was unjust?'
Bobby, of course, was not alone. Nine other comrades died on hunger strike after him. Michael Gaughan and Frank Stagg died from force-feeding and on hunger strike before him in 1974 and 1976. There are many others who lost their lives in the same way in republican history. But tonight we commemorate Bobby Sands.
It was the David and Goliath battle between a huge and powerful British Government and a strong will in the frail body of a hunger striker that is the enduring image and reality of the 1981 Hunger Strike.
Who of my generation does not remember where they were when they heard of Bobby Sands's death? I was in Cage 9 of Long Kesh, within a few hundred yards of the prison hospital. I remember watching his mother on the news telling the world "My son is dying" just a few short hours before he passed away. I stood amongst comrades in the Nissen hut in absolute silence. We all went with our own thoughts to our prison bunks.
I wrote my thoughts down till the news flash came through that Bobby was dead. It was only months later that I returned to the verses I had written and realised it was more about his mother, Rosaleen, than about Bobby himself. I reduced 20 verses down to four short ones:
Bobby's Mother
Rosaleen Sands
You do not know me
I saw you only
On a television screen
When so reluctantly you announced
"My son is dying"
Standing with such dignity and calm
In the deep well of your grief
I felt an intruder
To your private torment
Witness to a mother's
Naked mourning
Thank you
For allowing us to share
Your precious final moments
With a great man
Bobby Sands came to represent, to symbolise, a generation of Irish republican activists. So unwillingly, unknowingly, his mother Rosaleen Sands became to me, a symbol of what so many families have suffered during that dark period of our history.
I have spoken at many commemorations for comrades, some of whom were also friends or relatives. I have always said that I can't speak for them, that I don't know what they might think tonight or have said had they have been standing here in my place.
However, I do know that we lose many of our best in conflict and for those who survive the duty is to take up their mantle and to lead as best they can in the here and now.
I do know that the Hunger Strike was a political watershed, that it allowed the bulk of republicans to realise that elections are another site of political struggle. I do know that the stronger we are the more we can do to help those who need help most. The stronger we are the closer we get to our primary goal of a united Ireland. I know that, in 1916, republicans used the relevant tools they had at their disposal at that time as they did in the 1970s and in the 1980s after the Hunger Strike period as well.
But today we must also use the relevant tools for the 21st century, for 2012. This isn't 1916 or 1970 or 1980 or 1990 or 2000. We are going from strength to strength, North and South. That we come from and represent our communities is essential to our politics. We have collectively achieved a massive amount. We have collectively much more to achieve.
We would not have got this far without the sacrifice of our fallen comrades. Taking risks has always been one of our strengths.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gerry Kelly MLAI belong to the school of thought
Which firmly believes
That poetry is simply prose
Arranged
In a different way
With absolutely
No thought given
To form
Or metre
Or rhythm,
Just throw in a
Corncrake or a sandpiper or two
Or some sentimental twaddle
To do with mothers
And you're
Home
in
A
Boat.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 04, 2012, 12:49:17 PM
Quote from: glens abu on May 09, 2012, 10:04:57 AM
Bobby's Mother
Rosaleen Sands
You do not know me
I saw you only
On a television screen
When so reluctantly you announced
"My son is dying"
Standing with such dignity and calm
In the deep well of your grief
I felt an intruder
To your private torment
Witness to a mother's
Naked mourning
Thank you
For allowing us to share
Your precious final moments
With a great man
Gerry Kelly MLA
I belong to the school of thought
Which firmly believes
That poetry is simply prose
Arranged
In a different way
With absolutely
No thought given
To form
Or metre
Or rhythm,
Just throw in a
Corncrake or a sandpiper or two
Or some sentimental twaddle
To do with mothers
And you're
Home
in
A
Boat.
Lines on the Death of Chairman Mao
So.
Farewell then
Chairman Mao.
You are the
Last of the
Great revolutionary
Figures. You
And I
Had little in
Common
Except that
Like me
You were a poet.
Though how you
Found time
To write poems
In addition to
Running a
Country of
800 million people
Is baffling
Frankly.
EJ Thribb
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._J._Thribb )
So, Myles, is this poetry:
As I was going up a hill,
I saw a girl on her bicycle.
I saw her dashing towards a wall.
She smashed herself and her bicycall.
Can you tell me also the difference between meter and rhythm?
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 04, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
So, Myles, is this poetry:
As I was going up a hill,
I saw a girl on her bicycle.
I saw her dashing towards a wall.
She smashed herself and her bicycall.
Can you tell me also the difference between meter and rhythm?
1. No
2. Yes
Myles, do you reject all free verse? Some explanation would be helpful.
RIP
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 04, 2012, 05:52:10 PM
Myles, do you reject all free verse? Some explanation would be helpful.
(If I may intervene) You don't have to reject all "free verse" to consider Kelly's effort to be absolute cack.
Just as you don't have to reject all conventional poetry to consider eg Bobby Sand's efforts in that field to be similarly execrable.
Quite honestly, if either of these (would-be) "poets" were eg scientists, farmers or bus drivers, rather than "Freedom fighters" [
sic], no-one would give such garbage a moment's consideration.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 04, 2012, 05:52:10 PM
Myles, do you reject all free verse? Some explanation would be helpful.
Here's a good starting point for any discussion on free verse:
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/5901
EG, I did not write that I liked the poem in question. Instead, I was simply trying to find out if Myles's parody represented his views on free verse.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 04, 2012, 10:42:30 PM
EG, I did not write that I liked the poem in question. Instead, I was simply trying to find out if Myles's parody represented his views on free verse.
I liked the total football style of Holland in the 70s, but total football didn't mean the team had no structure at all. To break the rules, you have to know the rules. Too often free verse is used as a cop out by people who can't write poetry, in much the same way as abstract art is often used as a cover by those who can't draw / paint.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 21, 2012, 06:45:00 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on March 21, 2012, 10:12:01 AM
.......... Where are your sacks of barley will your likes be seen again.'
Love that song!
Why is our country partioned ye ask?.......... And ye blame Bobby Sands and Padraig Pearse? Enough said.
If you seriously believe that the person(s) who wrote the lyrics of 'McIlhatton' and 'Back Home in Derry' is/are one and the same as the semi literate writer of that 'poem' for his mother quoted earlier in this thread, then you are even more gullible than I thought.
I blame Pearse and his contemporaries for partition. The very best outcome their strategy of armed rebellion could deliver was always going to be a divided island, given the willingness of nearly 1 million people in the north to resist the idea of an independent Ireland by all means necessary, including force. Sands can't be blamed for partition, but he can be blamed for strengthening it.
Its Pearse and his contemporaries fault but not the one million?
Thanks, Myles, for clarifying your opinion of free verse. On that topic , I agree with you then. And I also agree with EG that Gerry Kelly's poem is poor and at times is mere treacle. And as for Bobby Sands being a writer, well I think we can agree that we probably wrote a lot. As for its quality. Let's say that the various samples excerpted here indicate a stylistic inconsistency. But that matters little to me. It's not as though he was seeking or was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I do have to disagree with your view that he strengthened partition, a patently absurd belief. It's not as though at that time N.I. was Usain Bolting towards reunification. Quite the opposite. In fact, I blame unionism's intransigence for birthing the IRA, those staunch one million who gave two fingers to democracy, a V sign they kept firmly in place for over half a century.
In fact, I would contend that unknowingly Bobby Sands' sacrifice actually accelerated the process of reunification, albeit at tortoise pace. But better that than stasis. Look at the aftermath of his action. The IRA decommissioned its weapons, opted for democracy over destruction, favored talks over terror. Far from strengthening partition, this strikes me as softening it.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 05:16:32 AM
Thanks, Myles, for clarifying your opinion of free verse. On that topic , I agree with you then. And I also agree with EG that Gerry Kelly's poem is poor and at times is mere treacle. And as for Bobby Sands being a writer, well I think we can agree that we probably wrote a lot. As for its quality. Let's say that the various samples excerpted here indicate a stylistic inconsistency. But that matters little to me. It's not as though he was seeking or was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I do have to disagree with your view that he strengthened partition, a patently absurd belief. It's not as though at that time N.I. was Usain Bolting towards reunification. Quite the opposite. In fact, I blame unionism's intransigence for birthing the IRA, those staunch one million who gave two fingers to democracy, a V sign they kept firmly in place for over half a century.
In fact, I would contend that unknowingly Bobby Sands' sacrifice actually accelerated the process of reunification, albeit at tortoise pace. But better that than stasis. Look at the aftermath of his action. The IRA decommissioned its weapons, opted for democracy over destruction, favored talks over terror. Far from strengthening partition, this strikes me as softening it.
If you believe that the Irish had a right to give 2 fingers to Britain and withdraw from the union, why then do you not allow the Ulster-British the same right to withhold their consent to being part of an independent Ireland? If self determination was good enough for the Irish, why not for the Ulster-British?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 05:16:32 AM
Thanks, Myles, for clarifying your opinion of free verse. On that topic , I agree with you then. And I also agree with EG that Gerry Kelly's poem is poor and at times is mere treacle. And as for Bobby Sands being a writer, well I think we can agree that we probably wrote a lot. As for its quality. Let's say that the various samples excerpted here indicate a stylistic inconsistency. But that matters little to me. It's not as though he was seeking or was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I do have to disagree with your view that he strengthened partition, a patently absurd belief. It's not as though at that time N.I. was Usain Bolting towards reunification. Quite the opposite. In fact, I blame unionism's intransigence for birthing the IRA, those staunch one million who gave two fingers to democracy, a V sign they kept firmly in place for over half a century.
In fact, I would contend that unknowingly Bobby Sands' sacrifice actually accelerated the process of reunification, albeit at tortoise pace. But better that than stasis. Look at the aftermath of his action. The IRA decommissioned its weapons, opted for democracy over destruction, favored talks over terror. Far from strengthening partition, this strikes me as softening it.
If you believe that the Irish had a right to give 2 fingers to Britain and withdraw from the union, why then do you not allow the Ulster-British the same right to withhold their consent to being part of an independent Ireland? If self determination was good enough for the Irish, why not for the Ulster-British?
Do the Ulster-Irish have the same right to self-determination you afford the "Ulster-British"?
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 05, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 05:16:32 AM
Thanks, Myles, for clarifying your opinion of free verse. On that topic , I agree with you then. And I also agree with EG that Gerry Kelly's poem is poor and at times is mere treacle. And as for Bobby Sands being a writer, well I think we can agree that we probably wrote a lot. As for its quality. Let's say that the various samples excerpted here indicate a stylistic inconsistency. But that matters little to me. It's not as though he was seeking or was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I do have to disagree with your view that he strengthened partition, a patently absurd belief. It's not as though at that time N.I. was Usain Bolting towards reunification. Quite the opposite. In fact, I blame unionism's intransigence for birthing the IRA, those staunch one million who gave two fingers to democracy, a V sign they kept firmly in place for over half a century.
In fact, I would contend that unknowingly Bobby Sands' sacrifice actually accelerated the process of reunification, albeit at tortoise pace. But better that than stasis. Look at the aftermath of his action. The IRA decommissioned its weapons, opted for democracy over destruction, favored talks over terror. Far from strengthening partition, this strikes me as softening it.
If you believe that the Irish had a right to give 2 fingers to Britain and withdraw from the union, why then do you not allow the Ulster-British the same right to withhold their consent to being part of an independent Ireland? If self determination was good enough for the Irish, why not for the Ulster-British?
Do the Ulster-Irish have the same right to self-determination you afford the "Ulster-British"?
Go ask the Leinster, Munster and Connacht Irish who agreed the national territory boundaries at the time when the Irish self determination was being asserted.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 04:45:57 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 05, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 05:16:32 AM
Thanks, Myles, for clarifying your opinion of free verse. On that topic , I agree with you then. And I also agree with EG that Gerry Kelly's poem is poor and at times is mere treacle. And as for Bobby Sands being a writer, well I think we can agree that we probably wrote a lot. As for its quality. Let's say that the various samples excerpted here indicate a stylistic inconsistency. But that matters little to me. It's not as though he was seeking or was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I do have to disagree with your view that he strengthened partition, a patently absurd belief. It's not as though at that time N.I. was Usain Bolting towards reunification. Quite the opposite. In fact, I blame unionism's intransigence for birthing the IRA, those staunch one million who gave two fingers to democracy, a V sign they kept firmly in place for over half a century.
In fact, I would contend that unknowingly Bobby Sands' sacrifice actually accelerated the process of reunification, albeit at tortoise pace. But better that than stasis. Look at the aftermath of his action. The IRA decommissioned its weapons, opted for democracy over destruction, favored talks over terror. Far from strengthening partition, this strikes me as softening it.
If you believe that the Irish had a right to give 2 fingers to Britain and withdraw from the union, why then do you not allow the Ulster-British the same right to withhold their consent to being part of an independent Ireland? If self determination was good enough for the Irish, why not for the Ulster-British?
Do the Ulster-Irish have the same right to self-determination you afford the "Ulster-British"?
Go ask the Leinster, Munster and Connacht Irish who agreed the national territory boundaries at the time when the Irish self determination was being asserted.
I'm asking you for your opinion Myles.
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 05, 2012, 05:01:20 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 04:45:57 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 05, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 05:16:32 AM
Thanks, Myles, for clarifying your opinion of free verse. On that topic , I agree with you then. And I also agree with EG that Gerry Kelly's poem is poor and at times is mere treacle. And as for Bobby Sands being a writer, well I think we can agree that we probably wrote a lot. As for its quality. Let's say that the various samples excerpted here indicate a stylistic inconsistency. But that matters little to me. It's not as though he was seeking or was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I do have to disagree with your view that he strengthened partition, a patently absurd belief. It's not as though at that time N.I. was Usain Bolting towards reunification. Quite the opposite. In fact, I blame unionism's intransigence for birthing the IRA, those staunch one million who gave two fingers to democracy, a V sign they kept firmly in place for over half a century.
In fact, I would contend that unknowingly Bobby Sands' sacrifice actually accelerated the process of reunification, albeit at tortoise pace. But better that than stasis. Look at the aftermath of his action. The IRA decommissioned its weapons, opted for democracy over destruction, favored talks over terror. Far from strengthening partition, this strikes me as softening it.
If you believe that the Irish had a right to give 2 fingers to Britain and withdraw from the union, why then do you not allow the Ulster-British the same right to withhold their consent to being part of an independent Ireland? If self determination was good enough for the Irish, why not for the Ulster-British?
Do the Ulster-Irish have the same right to self-determination you afford the "Ulster-British"?
Go ask the Leinster, Munster and Connacht Irish who agreed the national territory boundaries at the time when the Irish self determination was being asserted.
I'm asking you for your opinion Myles.
You asked me about an ethnic group which doesn't exist -I'm plain, straightforward Irish, not Ulster-Irish. What next...Fermanagh-Irish?Tyrone - Irish? Since you're asking me to comment on non existent ethnic groups, I'm inviting you to go and talk to dead people. Sounds fair enough to me. For the record, the Irish are entitled to self determination and they have exercised that right. If you feel it's unfair that people, both Irish and British, ended up stranded on the wrong side of the border, then take it up with the people who forced the issue to such a point through violent action, then negotiated the treaty when they realised that what they'd set out to achieve wasn't obtainable through force of arms.
Myles, I think you're guilty of a false equivalency. Before partition, the vast majority of Irish voted for a united Ireland, a landslide by any reasonable electoral standard, but the unionist minority thumbed their nose at democracy, a trend that they stuck to with a religious fervor until very recently when it suited them.
Your reference to the union is altogether different, having nothing to do with democracy but instead with colonial imposition. Should all the other countries that have cast off the yoke of colonialism have carved out a chunk of their land for opponents of independence, so that "there's some corner of a foreign field / That is forever England" to hijack the words of Rupert Brooke.
And then you mock Arthur-Friend by asking him to enquire of the other provinces why they acquiesced to partition when armed struggle failed, an armed struggle that occurred because democracy was flouted. Ironically, returning to the theme of 1981, a contemporary armed struggle happened once again because democracy was denied, and I write this as one who abhors violence and who values democracy not demagoguery and dictatorship.
And by the way, I'm delighted that you define yourself as straightforward Irish. Many unionists would not do that either now or in the past, so I think we're making encouraging steps.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 07:08:50 PM
Myles, I think you're guilty of a false equivalency. Before partition, the vast majority of Irish voted for a united Ireland, a landslide by any reasonable electoral standard, but the unionist minority thumbed their nose at democracy, a trend that they stuck to with a religious fervor until very recently when it suited them.
Your reference to the union is altogether different, having nothing to do with democracy but instead with colonial imposition. Should all the other countries that have cast off the yoke of colonialism have carved out a chunk of their land for opponents of independence, so that "there's some corner of a foreign field / That is forever England" to hijack the words of Rupert Brooke.
And then you mock Arthur-Friend by asking him to enquire of the other provinces why they acquiesced to partition when armed struggle failed, an armed struggle that occurred because democracy was flouted. Ironically, returning to the theme of 1981, a contemporary armed struggle happened once again because democracy was denied, and I write this as one who abhors violence and who values democracy not demagoguery and dictatorship.
And by the way, I'm delighted that you define yourself as straightforward Irish. Many unionists would not do that either now or in the past, so I think we're making encouraging steps.
The argument about a 'unionist minority' only holds good if you accept that Ireland is one country, rather than a single island inhabited by two sets of ethnic groups. If you believe, as most northern unionists do, that they are a separate ethnic group, then the vote in favour of independence was carried by a majority amongst one ethnic group only while being rejected by the other. What right do the native Irish have to impose their will on those who are British and wish to remain British? Exactly the same right, I would argue, that the British had to impose their will on the majority of people on this island who wanted nothing to do with them i.e no right at all. So we're back to my original question: if self determination is good enough for the Irish, why not for the Ulster-British?
Don't want to discourage you and your hopeful steps, but I'm not a unionist. My wife is though, and after 18 years of rubbing shoulders with a large set of Irish Catholic in laws, she still describes herself as British and hangs on to her British passport. If I can't persuade her that she's really Irish, I don't hold out much hope for the Shinners outreach project being any more successful.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 05:18:08 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 05, 2012, 05:01:20 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 04:45:57 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 05, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 05:16:32 AM
Thanks, Myles, for clarifying your opinion of free verse. On that topic , I agree with you then. And I also agree with EG that Gerry Kelly's poem is poor and at times is mere treacle. And as for Bobby Sands being a writer, well I think we can agree that we probably wrote a lot. As for its quality. Let's say that the various samples excerpted here indicate a stylistic inconsistency. But that matters little to me. It's not as though he was seeking or was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I do have to disagree with your view that he strengthened partition, a patently absurd belief. It's not as though at that time N.I. was Usain Bolting towards reunification. Quite the opposite. In fact, I blame unionism's intransigence for birthing the IRA, those staunch one million who gave two fingers to democracy, a V sign they kept firmly in place for over half a century.
In fact, I would contend that unknowingly Bobby Sands' sacrifice actually accelerated the process of reunification, albeit at tortoise pace. But better that than stasis. Look at the aftermath of his action. The IRA decommissioned its weapons, opted for democracy over destruction, favored talks over terror. Far from strengthening partition, this strikes me as softening it.
If you believe that the Irish had a right to give 2 fingers to Britain and withdraw from the union, why then do you not allow the Ulster-British the same right to withhold their consent to being part of an independent Ireland? If self determination was good enough for the Irish, why not for the Ulster-British?
Do the Ulster-Irish have the same right to self-determination you afford the "Ulster-British"?
Go ask the Leinster, Munster and Connacht Irish who agreed the national territory boundaries at the time when the Irish self determination was being asserted.
I'm asking you for your opinion Myles.
You asked me about an ethnic group which doesn't exist -I'm plain, straightforward Irish, not Ulster-Irish. What next...Fermanagh-Irish?Tyrone - Irish? Since you're asking me to comment on non existent ethnic groups, I'm inviting you to go and talk to dead people. Sounds fair enough to me. For the record, the Irish are entitled to self determination and they have exercised that right. If you feel it's unfair that people, both Irish and British, ended up stranded on the wrong side of the border, then take it up with the people who forced the issue to such a point through violent action, then negotiated the treaty when they realised that what they'd set out to achieve wasn't obtainable through force of arms.
First off, I was referring to the Irish within Ulster - not a separate ethnic group.
On your other point to Oraisteach, I think you'll find that Ireland joined the Union as a single country, and in fact under the Third Home Rule Bill was to stay in the Union albeit with self-governance.
One group armed itself to the teeth against this democratic process and it wasn't Pearse et al.
Myles, if you're not unionist, what are you? Nationalist? Can you please explain.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 05, 2012, 08:24:05 PM
Myles, if you're not unionist, what are you? Nationalist? Can you please explain.
I'm from an Irish nationalist background and would like to see a 32 county, independent Irish republic, but that doesn't mean that I believe that Irish nationalists 'own' the whole island or that northern unionists are simply a confused, embittered national minority. If we want to see a united Ireland, we'll have to convince a significant group of citizens who don't see themselves as belonging to the same tribe as the rest of us, that it's in their interests to cut the ties with their 'mainland' home and throw in their lot with a group they've previously regarded as hostile to their interests.
Ulster Unionists are not a homogenous ethnic group. They are Unionists primarily through religion and not politics. Many of them would have Irish Ancestry stretching back to before the reformation and until the famine were Catholic. Many are of Scottish Presbyterian extraction and many of English Anglican extraction. They clung to their "Britishness" as a unifying factor, originally because they feared being swamped by the Papish Irish Majority on the Island and then when partition intervened they clung too it through a seige menatlity which was reinforced by the violent Republican conflict of the 70's and 80's. I am not justifying or condemning any of these things just pointing out the reality of what has happened.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2012, 05:18:08 PM
If you feel it's unfair that people, both Irish and British, ended up stranded on the wrong side of the border, then take it up with the people who forced the issue to such a point through violent action, then negotiated the treaty when they realised that what they'd set out to achieve wasn't obtainable through force of arms.
Myles, you're a reasonable chap. But that's an Animal Farm view of what has happened in Ireland. Partition was achieved by the force of arms and was maintained by the force of arms. Either Griffith et al signed the treaty or there would be "'immediate and terrible war" (Lloyd George). Later on, unarmed people who protested against the British state would be gunned down in the street and their families told that they deserved it by the law of the British state. The threat of violence has always been just as potent as violence itself, and Britain has rarely hesitated to use it throughout its history.
There was an article in the guardian recently about what would happen if Scotland left the Union following a comment Miliband made , that if Scotland left then the Scots couldn't be called British any more. The whole British construct came from the 1707 act of Union between Scotland and England/Wales.
If Scotland does go where will that leave the wee 6 ?
There would probably be a resurgence of English nationalism, the Welsh would start thinking and the English could well decide to pull the plug on the statelet around the Bann.
If you ask most people in London , people living in Norn Irn are Irish, not British. That is what is says on the tin.
It could get very interesting.
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PM
There was an article in the guardian recently about what would happen if Scotland left the Union following a comment Miliband made , that if Scotland left then the Scots couldn't be called British any more. The whole British construct came from the 1707 act of Union between Scotland and England/Wales.
If Scotland does go where will that leave the wee 6 ?
There would probably be a resurgence of English nationalism, the Welsh would start thinking and the English could well decide to pull the plug on the statelet around the Bann.
If you ask most people in London , people living in Norn Irn are Irish, not British. That is what is says on the tin.
It could get very interesting.
There was a poll the other day among Scots and the "yes" for Independence had fallen to 35%
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 19, 2012, 04:33:21 PM
Ulster Unionists are not a homogenous ethnic group. They are Unionists primarily through religion and not politics. Many of them would have Irish Ancestry stretching back to before the reformation and until the famine were Catholic. Many are of Scottish Presbyterian extraction and many of English Anglican extraction. They clung to their "Britishness" as a unifying factor, originally because they feared being swamped by the Papish Irish Majority on the Island and then when partition intervened they clung too it through a seige menatlity which was reinforced by the violent Republican conflict of the 70's and 80's. I am not justifying or condemning any of these things just pointing out the reality of what has happened.
Interesting.
For you see, I had always thought that I am a Unionist as the result of the following process, namely when encouraged by my family to see the Union as a good thing, I subsequently came to agree. (By contrast, when encouraged by them to see Religion as a good thing, I subsequently decided it was a load of old nonsense.)
As I see it, you are confusing how a political philosophy/movement arises, and how somebody joins and endorses that philosophy/movement subsequently.
Next, you assume that if a political movement is created and espoused by members of a particular religious community, then all members of that community will likely (inevitably?) remain adherents. This is contradicted eg by the Society of United Irishmen, which was largely founded by members of the same (Ulster-Scots) Presbyterians who had previously and subsequently espoused the British cause . Another example is found in the American War of Independence, when those same "Scotch Irish" who had emigrated to the New World were to fight on both sides of the conflict. And, of course, many in the Presbyterian and Anglican communities in Ireland and Scotland often supported the (vaguely Catholic) Royalist cause during the English Civil War, rather than (the strongly Protestant) Parliamentarians.
Further, you fall into the trap of seizing upon particular historical references to support your thesis, without considering other aspects which contradict it. For example, whilst it is true that Ulster Unionists have often clung to the Union out of naked self-interest, at times they have also done so for more 'positive' reasons, i.e. that the British State was more likely to guarantee Civil, Political and Religious Liberty than eg a (Catholic) Irish State dominated by France or Spain. (Another example is the British in Ireland throwing in their lot with their fellow Britons in GB, when the latter were threatened by Napoleon/Kaiser/Hitler, even though they might have kept out of it, in expectation that the British would lose).
Finally, you do not give credit to the ability of individuals to act independently of the historical narrative, which is a silly mistake if you think about it, since so many have little or no real knowledge of their own history, never mind that of others.
Still, as a Unionist, I should be glad that at I've got any number of Nationalists available to tell me who I am and what I believe (if the evidence of this Board is anything to go by, at any rate...)
Times are tough across Europe and there isn't so much money sloshing around and long held assumptions are being revised and political choices about who to shaft are being made
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/19/breadline-britain-hungry-schoolchildren-breakfast
And just as Ireland will not be able to continue for much longer without shaping on on public spending, it is hard to see London funding Ulster indefinitely.
Why should Brixton subsidise Belfast ?
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 06:58:43 PM
, it is hard to see London funding Ulster indefinitely.
I'd say our lot would be happy to know they haven't to pay for Donegal,Cavan or Monaghan any more :o :o :o
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PM
There was an article in the guardian recently about what would happen if Scotland left the Union following a comment Miliband made , that if Scotland left then the Scots couldn't be called British any more. The whole British construct came from the 1707 act of Union between Scotland and England/Wales.
If Scotland does go where will that leave the wee 6 ?
There would probably be a resurgence of English nationalism, the Welsh would start thinking and the English could well decide to pull the plug on the statelet around the Bann.
If you ask most people in London , people living in Norn Irn are Irish, not British. That is what is says on the tin.
It could get very interesting.
are there any jews around the Bann... ? It could get very interesting for them if you get your way !
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 19, 2012, 06:16:09 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 19, 2012, 04:33:21 PM
Ulster Unionists are not a homogeneous ethnic group. They are Unionists primarily through religion and not politics. Many of them would have Irish Ancestry stretching back to before the reformation and until the famine were Catholic. Many are of Scottish Presbyterian extraction and many of English Anglican extraction. They clung to their "Britishness" as a unifying factor, originally because they feared being swamped by the Papish Irish Majority on the Island and then when partition intervened they clung too it through a siege mentality which was reinforced by the violent Republican conflict of the 70's and 80's. I am not justifying or condemning any of these things just pointing out the reality of what has happened.
Interesting.
For you see, I had always thought that I am a Unionist as the result of the following process, namely when encouraged by my family to see the Union as a good thing, I subsequently came to agree. (By contrast, when encouraged by them to see Religion as a good thing, I subsequently decided it was a load of old nonsense.)
As I see it, you are confusing how a political philosophy/movement arises, and how somebody joins and endorses that philosophy/movement subsequently.
Next, you assume that if a political movement is created and espoused by members of a particular religious community, then all members of that community will likely (inevitably?) remain adherents. This is contradicted eg by the Society of United Irishmen, which was largely founded by members of the same (Ulster-Scots) Presbyterians who had previously and subsequently espoused the British cause . Another example is found in the American War of Independence, when those same "Scotch Irish" who had emigrated to the New World were to fight on both sides of the conflict. And, of course, many in the Presbyterian and Anglican communities in Ireland and Scotland often supported the (vaguely Catholic) Royalist cause during the English Civil War, rather than (the strongly Protestant) Parliamentarians.
Further, you fall into the trap of seizing upon particular historical references to support your thesis, without considering other aspects which contradict it. For example, whilst it is true that Ulster Unionists have often clung to the Union out of naked self-interest, at times they have also done so for more 'positive' reasons, i.e. that the British State was more likely to guarantee Civil, Political and Religious Liberty than eg a (Catholic) Irish State dominated by France or Spain. (Another example is the British in Ireland throwing in their lot with their fellow Britons in GB, when the latter were threatened by Napoleon/Kaiser/Hitler, even though they might have kept out of it, in expectation that the British would lose).
Finally, you do not give credit to the ability of individuals to act independently of the historical narrative, which is a silly mistake if you think about it, since so many have little or no real knowledge of their own history, never mind that of others.
Still, as a Unionist, I should be glad that at I've got any number of Nationalists available to tell me who I am and what I believe (if the evidence of this Board is anything to go by, at any rate...)
Whatever about today, the primary motivating factor in the northeast of this island for maintaining the Union was religion and fear of domination by the Catholic state. Granted your reasons today for remaining within the Union may have broadened out and many Catholics today accept the Union for socio-economic reasons. However you cannot deny that the whole Orange statelet was not originally intended as a protestant state for protestant people. True political Unionists in 1922 would not have demanded their own Parliament.
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PM
There was an article in the guardian recently about what would happen if Scotland left the Union following a comment Miliband made , that if Scotland left then the Scots couldn't be called British any more. The whole British construct came from the 1707 act of Union between Scotland and England/Wales.
Re Milliband's comment, as (non-SNP) Scots have begun to consider the full consequences of independence, they may be getting more concerned by what they will lose ("Britishness"), than what they will gain (self-determination).
Therefore in order to reassure them, Salmond/SNP is trying to have it both ways, by claiming that Scots will still remain "British", even after independence. To support this claim, he cites Sweden, Denmark and Norway, who remain "Scandinavian", despite being politically separate.
I consider this a bogus analogy, since "Scandinavianness" is hardly much more than a mere geographical expression, unlike Britishness, which has much wider political, social, economic and cultural resonance.
In fact, I was disappointed that no-one thought to ask him whether he considered the people of the Irish Free State to still be "British" after they seceded from the Union in 1921... ;)
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PMIf Scotland does go where will that leave the wee 6 ?
There would probably be a resurgence of English nationalism, the Welsh would start thinking and the English could well decide to pull the plug on the statelet around the Bann.
There is no doubt in my mind that a Scottish breakaway would prompt a general re-think about the Union.
However it would all be such uncharted territory (pun unintended), that I'd hesitate to predict what new consequences might follow.
As regards English Nationalism, I'm not sure it would "surge". On the contrary, having got rid of those "troublesome Scots" perhaps the English might not feel the need to emphasise their own identity so much, esp since England would then dominate the Union even more.
Welsh Nationalism, meantime, might get a boost but in truth, the Nats there have so much ground to make up that I doubt it would prove a tipping point.
And as for NI, so long as soldiers aren't being killed etc, the only argument for England "pulling the plug" would be economic. but here, people overlook two things. First, NI only accounts for 3% of UK population, so the amount of subsidy that NI receives over and above their per capita share can only be a small fraction of that figure and therefore a tiny fraction of the overall Budget.
Never mind that the (rump) UK would be saving money that they currently to Scotland as their subsidy. But could anyone really justify cutting the additional subsidy to NI, which must be less than 1% of the overall UK Budget and is designed to raise up a less prosperous region of this country, whilst continuing to give eg 0.7% of the UK budget in Overseas Aid, including to relatively self-sufficient countries like India?
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/28/overseas-aid-budget-cut-andrew-mitchell-lords_n_1384800.html
But in any case, unless Westminster/England really screws things up in the meantime, I really don't believe the Scots will opt to leave the Union.
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PMIf you ask most people in London , people living in Norn Irn are Irish, not British. That is what is says on the tin.
In my experience, most people in London have little or no idea of what goes on North of Watford, never mind in the North of Ireland.
Which considering fully one third of Londoners were born outside the UK, is not maybe so surprising:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349117/Migration-wave-means-Londoners-born-abroad.html
Anyhow, it's what it says on my
Passport which counts, not your tin... ;)
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PMIt could get very interesting.
Interesting, maybe, but I wouldn't build my hopes too high, if I were you.
EG, what exactly is it about the English you like so much?
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2012, 03:48:30 PM
...North of Ireland...........
If you are using the above phrase I think you are spending too much time around here...........
/Jim
Quote from: sheamy on June 20, 2012, 03:58:43 PM
EG, what exactly is it about the English you like so much?
Lots of things, certainly many more than those things which I dislike. In particular, I especially appreciate their tolerance, which is why I can't complain about the latter (my dislikes).
And as someone who cannot easily be mistaken for being English myself (at least anytime I open my mouth!), they seem to like me well enough, so it's only reasonable that I should return the compliment.
Then again, I tend to like people wherever I go. I've been lucky enough to have travelled quite a bit, to many different countries om several continents, including a couple of extended stays (USA and France).
Indeed, I'd go so far as to say the only people I've really not been too fussed by were French-Canadians, though I wouldn't put it any stronger than that. Meanwhile people in the rest of Canada are some of the best people you could meet anywhere.
P.S. I also like the Scots, Welsh and Irish (NI and ROI).
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on June 20, 2012, 05:47:38 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2012, 03:48:30 PM
...North of Ireland...........
If you are using the above phrase I think you are spending too much time around here...........
/Jim
Actually I saw Alex Attwood on TV the other day and could swear he said "Northern Ireland" - possibly twice!
Therefore it was just my way of acknowledging the enormity and magnanimity of his grand gesture...
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2012, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PM
There was an article in the guardian recently about what would happen if Scotland left the Union following a comment Miliband made , that if Scotland left then the Scots couldn't be called British any more. The whole British construct came from the 1707 act of Union between Scotland and England/Wales.
Re Milliband's comment, as (non-SNP) Scots have begun to consider the full consequences of independence, they may be getting more concerned by what they will lose ("Britishness"), than what they will gain (self-determination).
Therefore in order to reassure them, Salmond/SNP is trying to have it both ways, by claiming that Scots will still remain "British", even after independence. To support this claim, he cites Sweden, Denmark and Norway, who remain "Scandinavian", despite being politically separate.
I consider this a bogus analogy, since "Scandinavianness" is hardly much more than a mere geographical expression, unlike Britishness, which has much wider political, social, economic and cultural resonance.
In fact, I was disappointed that no-one thought to ask him whether he considered the people of the Irish Free State to still be "British" after they seceded from the Union in 1921... ;)
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PMIf Scotland does go where will that leave the wee 6 ?
There would probably be a resurgence of English nationalism, the Welsh would start thinking and the English could well decide to pull the plug on the statelet around the Bann.
There is no doubt in my mind that a Scottish breakaway would prompt a general re-think about the Union.
However it would all be such uncharted territory (pun unintended), that I'd hesitate to predict what new consequences might follow.
As regards English Nationalism, I'm not sure it would "surge". On the contrary, having got rid of those "troublesome Scots" perhaps the English might not feel the need to emphasise their own identity so much, esp since England would then dominate the Union even more.
Welsh Nationalism, meantime, might get a boost but in truth, the Nats there have so much ground to make up that I doubt it would prove a tipping point.
And as for NI, so long as soldiers aren't being killed etc, the only argument for England "pulling the plug" would be economic. but here, people overlook two things. First, NI only accounts for 3% of UK population, so the amount of subsidy that NI receives over and above their per capita share can only be a small fraction of that figure and therefore a tiny fraction of the overall Budget.
Never mind that the (rump) UK would be saving money that they currently to Scotland as their subsidy. But could anyone really justify cutting the additional subsidy to NI, which must be less than 1% of the overall UK Budget and is designed to raise up a less prosperous region of this country, whilst continuing to give eg 0.7% of the UK budget in Overseas Aid, including to relatively self-sufficient countries like India?
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/28/overseas-aid-budget-cut-andrew-mitchell-lords_n_1384800.html
But in any case, unless Westminster/England really screws things up in the meantime, I really don't believe the Scots will opt to leave the Union.
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PMIf you ask most people in London , people living in Norn Irn are Irish, not British. That is what is says on the tin.
In my experience, most people in London have little or no idea of what goes on North of Watford, never mind in the North of Ireland.
Which considering fully one third of Londoners were born outside the UK, is not maybe so surprising:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349117/Migration-wave-means-Londoners-born-abroad.html
Anyhow, it's what it says on my Passport which counts, not your tin... ;)
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PMIt could get very interesting.
Interesting, maybe, but I wouldn't build my hopes too high, if I were you.
Irish people have never been and aren't now British, as they weren't boron on the Island of Britain, so Mr Salmond is correct. People from NI in some cases may feel British but actually if you check it is the UK of Britain and NI (Ireland pre 1922).
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
Irish people have never been and aren't now British, as they weren't boron on the Island of Britain, so Mr Salmond is correct. People from NI in some cases may feel British but actually if you check it is the UK of Britain and NI (Ireland pre 1922).
The Good Friday Agreement, negotiated over several years by all participants to the dispute, legally recognised in all international forums, and overwhelmingly endorsed by the majority of people in all parts of Ireland, specifically recognises:
"... the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Are you claiming that you know better? ::)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
Irish people have never been and aren't now British, as they weren't boron on the Island of Britain, so Mr Salmond is correct. People from NI in some cases may feel British but actually if you check it is the UK of Britain and NI (Ireland pre 1922).
The Good Friday Agreement, negotiated over several years by all participants to the dispute, legally recognised in all international forums, and overwhelmingly endorsed by the majority of people in all parts of Ireland, specifically recognises:
"... the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Are you claiming that you know better? ::)
Yep!
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
Irish people have never been and aren't now British, as they weren't boron on the Island of Britain, so Mr Salmond is correct. People from NI in some cases may feel British but actually if you check it is the UK of Britain and NI (Ireland pre 1922).
The Good Friday Agreement, negotiated over several years by all participants to the dispute, legally recognised in all international forums, and overwhelmingly endorsed by the majority of people in all parts of Ireland, specifically recognises:
"... the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Are you claiming that you know better? ::)
Yep!
And I am the one who gets accused, including by you, of being "arrogant", "triumphalist" and "stuck in the past" etc.
Oh, and a "leper"
sic as well >:(
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2012, 06:22:09 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on June 20, 2012, 05:47:38 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 20, 2012, 03:48:30 PM
...North of Ireland...........
If you are using the above phrase I think you are spending too much time around here...........
/Jim
Actually I saw Alex Attwood on TV the other day and could swear he said "Northern Ireland" - possibly twice!
Therefore it was just my way of acknowledging the enormity and magnanimity of his grand gesture...
It's progress that Alex does now say at least two words that most people understand!
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:32:12 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
Irish people have never been and aren't now British, as they weren't boron on the Island of Britain, so Mr Salmond is correct. People from NI in some cases may feel British but actually if you check it is the UK of Britain and NI (Ireland pre 1922).
The Good Friday Agreement, negotiated over several years by all participants to the dispute, legally recognised in all international forums, and overwhelmingly endorsed by the majority of people in all parts of Ireland, specifically recognises:
"... the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Are you claiming that you know better? ::)
Yep!
And I am the one who gets accused, including by you, of being "arrogant", "triumphalist" and "stuck in the past" etc.
Oh, and a "leper" sic as well >:(
You can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish, in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AMYou can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish
I don't just "call myself" or "feel" British, I
AM British, and you have no more right to deny me my birthright than I have to deny you yours.
Of course, if your objection is solely linguistic, I could call myself "United Kingdomish" rather than "British", and not even you could deny me that.
In fact, why not go the whole hog and rename the State the "United Queendom" whenever the Sovereign happens to be female? ::)
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AM... in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
Yep, and residing in the (ahem)
British Isles... :D
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 12:19:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AMYou can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish
I don't just "call myself" or "feel" British, I AM British, and you have no more right to deny me my birthright than I have to deny you yours.
Of course, if your objection is solely linguistic, I could call myself "United Kingdomish" rather than "British", and not even you could deny me that.
In fact, why not go the whole hog and rename the State the "United Queendom" whenever the Sovereign happens to be female? ::)
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AM... in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
Yep, and residing in the (ahem) British Isles... :D
Actually no, that is not strictly true either. But hey no big deal, you are what you feel. You fell like a Brit then thats fine by me...not that you need my consent...before you say it! ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 12:19:22 PM
, I could call myself "United Kingdomish" rather than "British",
(y)UKish will do grand :P
Quote from: Rossfan on June 21, 2012, 04:52:08 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 12:19:22 PM
, I could call myself "United Kingdomish" rather than "British",
(y)UKish will do grand :P
I suppose Marty would say better a Brit than a West Brit!
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:32:12 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
Irish people have never been and aren't now British, as they weren't boron on the Island of Britain, so Mr Salmond is correct. People from NI in some cases may feel British but actually if you check it is the UK of Britain and NI (Ireland pre 1922).
The Good Friday Agreement, negotiated over several years by all participants to the dispute, legally recognised in all international forums, and overwhelmingly endorsed by the majority of people in all parts of Ireland, specifically recognises:
"... the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Are you claiming that you know better? ::)
Yep!
And I am the one who gets accused, including by you, of being "arrogant", "triumphalist" and "stuck in the past" etc.
Oh, and a "leper" sic as well >:(
You can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish, in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
What a thoroughly depressing post - So much for the spirit of understanding and respecting other people's views
Quote from: seafoid on June 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PM
There was an article in the guardian recently about what would happen if Scotland left the Union following a comment Miliband made , that if Scotland left then the Scots couldn't be called British any more. The whole British construct came from the 1707 act of Union between Scotland and England/Wales.
That confirms the current political reality that being 'British' is nothing more than a status, that can be conferred or rescinded on the whim of Westminster. Try telling them that they could no longer be considered Scottish!
Quote from: michaelg on June 21, 2012, 07:42:09 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:32:12 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 21, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 09:19:04 AM
Irish people have never been and aren't now British, as they weren't boron on the Island of Britain, so Mr Salmond is correct. People from NI in some cases may feel British but actually if you check it is the UK of Britain and NI (Ireland pre 1922).
The Good Friday Agreement, negotiated over several years by all participants to the dispute, legally recognised in all international forums, and overwhelmingly endorsed by the majority of people in all parts of Ireland, specifically recognises:
"... the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf
Are you claiming that you know better? ::)
Yep!
And I am the one who gets accused, including by you, of being "arrogant", "triumphalist" and "stuck in the past" etc.
Oh, and a "leper" sic as well >:(
You can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish, in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
What a thoroughly depressing post - So much for the spirit of understanding and respecting other people's views
I am being a bit pedantic here, I have no real issue with people wanting to be or call themselves British, just pointing out that technically they are not (usually).
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on June 21, 2012, 07:42:09 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
You can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish, in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
What a thoroughly depressing post - So much for the spirit of understanding and respecting other people's views
I am being a bit pedantic here, I have no real issue with people wanting to be or call themselves British, just pointing out that technically they are not (usually).
Technically you are quite simply wrong.
"British", Adjective:
"Connected with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or the people who live there"
http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/british
OR
"Of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/british_1
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2012, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on June 21, 2012, 07:42:09 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
You can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish, in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
What a thoroughly depressing post - So much for the spirit of understanding and respecting other people's views
I am being a bit pedantic here, I have no real issue with people wanting to be or call themselves British, just pointing out that technically they are not (usually).
Technically you are quite simply wrong.
"British", Adjective:
"Connected with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or the people who live there"
http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/british
OR
"Of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/british_1
I beg to differ, but anyway sure you can be chinese for all I care as long as your happy. If I wanted to be really pedantic I could arue that the Britons like the Celts are no more. I bet you mates in England call you Paddy anyway.
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 03:32:43 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2012, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on June 21, 2012, 07:42:09 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
You can call yourself British, feel British as you wish. The fact remains that unless you were born on or of parents who are from the island that is British then you are patently not British. The GFA may allow yourself to call yourself British and that is fine, but it doesn't change reality, you are a UK citizen, and Northern Irish, in the same way I am an Irish Citizen and Northern Irish.
What a thoroughly depressing post - So much for the spirit of understanding and respecting other people's views
I am being a bit pedantic here, I have no real issue with people wanting to be or call themselves British, just pointing out that technically they are not (usually).
Technically you are quite simply wrong.
"British", Adjective:
"Connected with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or the people who live there"
http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/british
OR
"Of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/british_1
I beg to differ, but anyway sure you can be chinese for all I care as long as your happy.
So when presented with conclusive evidence that your statement was kack, you think
"I beg to differ" a credible reply?
Wow.
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 03:32:43 PMIf I wanted to be really pedantic I could arue that the Britons like the Celts are no more.
You are confusing "pedantic" with "pathetic"... ::)
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 03:32:43 PMI bet you mates in England call you Paddy anyway.
Wrong.
Again.
Quote from: Hardy on June 22, 2012, 05:43:48 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2012, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 03:32:43 PMI bet you mates in England call you Paddy anyway.
Wrong.
Again.
How do you know?
Very good! ;D
Note to 'Apples': There is a difference between wit and childishness. Maybe some day you'll grow up and learn the difference.
QuoteNote to 'Apples': There is a difference between wit and childishness. Maybe some day you'll grow up and learn the difference.
That's somewhat lacking in self reflection from someone who spends his time coming into a sports forum, who never comments on sporting issues, but rather spends his time finding different ways to repeat that his great
10 grandfather beat up and colonised your great
10 grandfather.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2012, 05:48:12 PM
Quote from: Hardy on June 22, 2012, 05:43:48 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2012, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 22, 2012, 03:32:43 PMI bet you mates in England call you Paddy anyway.
Wrong.
Again.
How do you know?
Very good! ;D
Note to 'Apples': There is a difference between wit and childishness. Maybe some day you'll grow up and learn the difference.
EG it is my firmly held belief that the adjective British does not apply to anything or anyone from the Island of Ireland, irrespective of any definition in an English Dictionary, just because it is commonly used by people in the Unionist Community does not make it so, that said I repect your right to differ...if that makes me childish in you're view that's your right.
Nice timing
Secret hunger strike documents released
Margaret Thatcher, later Baroness Thatcher, was implacably opposed to the hunger strikers British officials set out to "butter up" the head of Ireland's Catholics, Cardinal Tomas O Fiaich, during the hunger strikes of 1981, recently-released confidential documents have revealed.
The suggestion to try to appease the cardinal came in a note accompanying a draft letter written by D Blatherwick of the Political Affairs Division on behalf of then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.
The Public Records Office documents are now available on the Cain website.
They give an intriguing insight into the public relations battle involving republicans, the Northern Ireland Office and the British and Irish governments during one of the most tense periods of the Troubles.
After hunger strikers Raymond McCreesh and Patsy O'Hara died on 21 May 1981, the then Primate, Cardinal O Fiaich, publicly criticised the government's attitude to the prison protest.
Mr Blatherwick, in his message to Downing Street, wrote: "Your minute of 21 May asked me to think about a possible message to Cardinal O Fiaich. The Cardinal has since let loose another shaft (copy attached), which reinforces the case for action on our part.
"I submit a self-explanatory draft from the Prime Minister together with a draft covering letter to No 10. I have tried to bring out elements of reassurance for the Catholic community, and to butter up the Cardinal.
"I have not inserted the idea that the influence of the Church is the key to progress but it is latent in the concept of consulting the Cardinal anyway."
Referring to Cardinal O Fiaich's statement to the press, he said: "As the Cardinal says, the impasse over the hunger strike and the continuing deaths of hunger strikers have sharply raised the temperature in the Catholic community.
Humphrey Atkins was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in 1981 "There is widespread genuine concern for the hunger strikers' fate (not necessarily for their cause) and a growing conviction, however illogical it may seem on the facts of the issue, that it is up to Government - as the stronger party - to find a way out of the dilemma which threatens to drag the community back into the dark days of the early 1970s.
"The feelings of bitterness, despair and frustration which show through the Cardinal's statement are therefore widely shared. At the same time, there is some feeling in the minority that the Government has not taken enough notice of the Cardinal's appeals."
"The Secretary of State (Humphrey Atkins) therefore hopes that the Prime Minister will agree to respond to the Cardinal's statement, and I enclose a draft.
"The timing of its release will be important. We think that the maximum impact would be made if it were to go to the Cardinal, and the press, on Sunday evening 24 May, after the funerals of McCreesh and O'Hara."
Mr Blatherwick adds that he believes the government is holding its own in the publicity battle.
"The ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights) intervention should help us hold the line, though it is not yet clear what publicity we shall be able to make of it in the circumstances," said.
The previously secret records have been added to the Conflict Archive on the INternet (CAIN) website as part of ongoing work between the University of Ulster and the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI).
In October 2010 a selection of records for the years 1968 to 1979 was made available. This was made up of hundreds of government records, formerly classified as restricted or secret.
Dr Brendan Lynn, CAIN deputy director Dr Brendan Lynn said: "We are pleased to have been able to continue our cooperation with PRONI and to update the existing section with material dealing with the year 1981.
"The information is easily available and free of charge. We believe it will of great use to students, researchers, teachers and lecturers or to anyone with an interest in the political and social history of Northern Ireland."
Hunger Strike March and Rally @ 2pm on Sunday 5th Aug in Dungiven home of Kevin Lynch.On this the 31st anniversary of their deaths they will all be remembered with pride."I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world.May God have mercy on my soul"
Rest in peace, the brave Hunger strike men of 1981 and all those other Irish patriot heroes before them !
"I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world.May God have mercy on my soul" Bobby Sands 1st March 1981 on the 1st day of Hunger strike.
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Good man Nally.
It is only right to remember the huge sacrifice of these Irish heroes.
History will fondly remember them just as it now does with the 1916 heroes.
Thanks for posting the diary up
Always an inspiration to read
God Bless the 10. Irelands finest
Quote from: camanchero on March 06, 2013, 03:14:36 PM
Good man Nally.
It is only right to remember the huge sacrifice of these Irish heroes.
History will fondly remember them just as it now does with the 1916 heroes.
Only if they get Danny Morrison in to write the history texts.
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Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 06, 2013, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: camanchero on March 06, 2013, 03:14:36 PM
Good man Nally.
It is only right to remember the huge sacrifice of these Irish heroes.
History will fondly remember them just as it now does with the 1916 heroes.
Only if they get Danny Morrison in to write the history texts.
Whats your opinion on the torture Sands writes about?
Dont get me started on revisionist history, the brits wouldnt know the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass, especially when it comes to us!
Quote from: stew on March 08, 2013, 07:27:06 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 06, 2013, 06:23:07 PM
Quote from: camanchero on March 06, 2013, 03:14:36 PM
Good man Nally.
It is only right to remember the huge sacrifice of these Irish heroes.
History will fondly remember them just as it now does with the 1916 heroes.
Only if they get Danny Morrison in to write the history texts.
Whats your opinion on the torture Sands writes about?
Dont get me started on revisionist history, the brits wouldnt know the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass, especially when it comes to us!
1. I'm against torture.
2. All written history is revisionist to some degree. Bit like beauty, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
3. Do you still believe that Bobby wrote that stuff?
Apart from his heroic brave last stand that cost him his life as a hunger striker, Bobby Sands from IMO a position of low formal education wrote way above what he previously would have been expected. From the song 'back home in Derry' to the tomes as reproduced by Nally Stand on this thread.
Not only could the man write, but so well did he articulate his opinion and perspective on all things republican and political that he 'converted' numerous men from being academically 'apolitical' to become apreciative followers and avid readers of history/political publication.
He also impressed INLA men so much that they jumped the idealistic divide from irsp constituents to more mainstream republican idealology.
These days the fight over the five demands seems so small and silly modern day folk would wonder why this second hunger strike was commissioned.
Against the wishes of external IRA and INLA army councils these men volunteered and wouldn't be told to stand down. Their eventual posthumous victory of the five demands was the first salvo that cracked the apartheid type statelet as it was then.
This resulted in the deconstruction of the sectarian state and gave rise to the eventual peace that was brokered and sits there today giving decent life to all people's in the north of Ireland-- which was the desire behind the hunger strikers action.
Eventual reunification will come but only at a time of economic viability.
That will be in due course. We have come a long way and this final step is inevitable, and we can give thanks to the brave hunger strikers for kick starting all of this and helping create the peace that exists today!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 08, 2013, 11:44:43 PM
Apart from his heroic brave last stand that cost him his life as a hunger striker, Bobby Sands from IMO a position of low formal education wrote way above what he previously would have been expected. From the song 'back home in Derry' to the tomes as reproduced by Nally Stand on this thread.
Not only could the man write, but so well did he articulate his opinion and perspective on all things republican and political that he 'converted' numerous men from being academically 'apolitical' to become apreciative followers and avid readers of history/political publication.
He also impressed INLA men so much that they jumped the idealistic divide from irsp constituents to more mainstream republican idealology.
These days the fight over the five demands seems so small and silly modern day folk would wonder why this second hunger strike was commissioned.
Against the wishes of external IRA and INLA army councils these men volunteered and wouldn't be told to stand down. Their eventual posthumous victory of the five demands was the first salvo that cracked the apartheid type statelet as it was then.
This resulted in the deconstruction of the sectarian state and gave rise to the eventual peace that was brokered and sits there today giving decent life to all people's in the north of Ireland-- which was the desire behind the hunger strikers action.
Eventual reunification will come but only at a time of economic viability.
That will be in due course. We have come a long way and this final step is inevitable, and we can give thanks to the brave hunger strikers for kick starting all of this and helping create the peace that exists today!
The Northern Ireland state had cracked and broken years before the hunger strike. Stormont had fallen in the early 70s and the British government had introduced a whole raft of equality legislation in employment and housing which made NI a comparatively 'equal' society. A power sharing assembly (i.e like the one the Shinners take part in now) was on offer in the mid 70s. It was rejected by loyalists led by Paisley and by Irish republicans, who wanted nothing short of Brits Out and a 32 country republic. If the hunger strike and election of Sands achieved anything, it showed republican leaders like Adams and McGuiness that there was a political route out of the hole they'd dug for themselves. They took it. Now we have a whole raft of equality legislation
and a power sharing assembly. The British Army has left our streets, but NI remains a part of the UK and and a UI is as far away as it's ever been. Wonder if Bobby Sands and the others would've thought their lives were worth offering up for that?
As for Bobby being a fantastic scholar / songwriter / etc etc. Anyone who believes that probably still reads the autobiographies of premiership footballers in the belief that they're written personally by Wayne, or Lamps, or Stevie G. A young man who wasn't able to spell the name of the school he attended and who made countless grammatical mistakes in the original comms that have been made available to journalists and writers, doesn't suddenly become a polished writer and diarist. Grow up.
I wish you would post these up a bit quicker, I want to know how it ends.
Such a great piece of fiction writing. Keep up the good work.
PS did he really quote Kipling? Almost as ironic as SF selling Bobby Sands dinner plates!
Quote from: Tonto on March 09, 2013, 10:05:21 AM
I wish you would post these up a bit quicker, I want to know how it ends.
Living TV paid him £25K as the UK's Biggest Loser?
/Jim
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 09, 2013, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 08, 2013, 11:44:43 PM
Apart from his heroic brave last stand that cost him his life as a hunger striker, Bobby Sands from IMO a position of low formal education wrote way above what he previously would have been expected. From the song 'back home in Derry' to the tomes as reproduced by Nally Stand on this thread.
Not only could the man write, but so well did he articulate his opinion and perspective on all things republican and political that he 'converted' numerous men from being academically 'apolitical' to become apreciative followers and avid readers of history/political publication.
He also impressed INLA men so much that they jumped the idealistic divide from irsp constituents to more mainstream republican idealology.
These days the fight over the five demands seems so small and silly modern day folk would wonder why this second hunger strike was commissioned.
Against the wishes of external IRA and INLA army councils these men volunteered and wouldn't be told to stand down. Their eventual posthumous victory of the five demands was the first salvo that cracked the apartheid type statelet as it was then.
This resulted in the deconstruction of the sectarian state and gave rise to the eventual peace that was brokered and sits there today giving decent life to all people's in the north of Ireland-- which was the desire behind the hunger strikers action.
Eventual reunification will come but only at a time of economic viability.
That will be in due course. We have come a long way and this final step is inevitable, and we can give thanks to the brave hunger strikers for kick starting all of this and helping create the peace that exists today!
The Northern Ireland state had cracked and broken years before the hunger strike. Stormont had fallen in the early 70s and the British government had introduced a whole raft of equality legislation in employment and housing which made NI a comparatively 'equal' society. A power sharing assembly (i.e like the one the Shinners take part in now) was on offer in the mid 70s. It was rejected by loyalists led by Paisley and by Irish republicans, who wanted nothing short of Brits Out and a 32 country republic. If the hunger strike and election of Sands achieved anything, it showed republican leaders like Adams and McGuiness that there was a political route out of the hole they'd dug for themselves. They took it. Now we have a whole raft of equality legislation and a power sharing assembly. The British Army has left our streets, but NI remains a part of the UK and and a UI is as far away as it's ever been. Wonder if Bobby Sands and the others would've thought their lives were worth offering up for that?
As for Bobby being a fantastic scholar / songwriter / etc etc. Anyone who believes that probably still reads the autobiographies of premiership footballers in the belief that they're written personally by Wayne, or Lamps, or Stevie G. A young man who wasn't able to spell the name of the school he attended and who made countless grammatical mistakes in the original comms that have been made available to journalists and writers, doesn't suddenly become a polished writer and diarist. Grow up.
Lol
Your revisionism cuts out best part of 20 years persecution!!
If you weren't about around these times or just want to forget, you'd best check your story out first!!
You obv don't like the fact that Sands wrote so much decent prose!
It seems like you are getting an English prem soccer player to help you write your stuff!
You can read the pain and hatred in other posts from those who preferred the old status quo and are jealous/bitter that the taigs had such heroes that would make the ultimate sacrifice like the ten heroes!
( not meaning you Jim - that was actually quite funny!)
Quote from: Tonto on March 09, 2013, 10:05:21 AM
I wish you would post these up a bit quicker, I want to know how it ends.
Such a great piece of fiction writing. Keep up the good work.
PS did he really quote Kipling? Almost as ironic as SF selling Bobby Sands dinner plates!
Have you not got a road to block?
Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2013, 04:05:17 PM
Quote from: Tonto on March 09, 2013, 10:05:21 AM
I wish you would post these up a bit quicker, I want to know how it ends.
Such a great piece of fiction writing. Keep up the good work.
PS did he really quote Kipling? Almost as ironic as SF selling Bobby Sands dinner plates!
Have you not got a road to block?
;D
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Flip, I've just realised this is the guy that killed himself.
Amazing that people make heroes out of suicide victims who were quite happy to support the death of those who, sadly, didn't have the same choice the suicide victims had.
The real heroes are those who died without fuss.
May all innocent victims of Sands' organisation and all other terrorist organisations rest in peace. Their deaths were thankfully not in vain. Unlike Robert's.
Don't forget the equally innocent victims of you're biased security forces Tonto.
Hint- David Cameron has been apologising for some of them.
Hopefully he or more likely his successor will get around to apologising for the rest of the innocents murdered by your Security forces ( not to mention the ones they got UDA/UVF etc thugs to kill).
If those Security forces had been even handed there would have been no need for the Bobby Sandses of the world to take up arms.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 15, 2013, 06:41:24 PM
Don't forget the equally innocent victims of you're biased security forces Tonto.
Hint- David Cameron has been apologising for some of them.
Hopefully he or more likely his successor will get around to apologising for the rest of the innocents murdered by your Security forces ( not to mention the ones they got UDA/UVF etc thugs to kill).
If those Security forces had been even handed there would have been no need for the Bobby Sandses of the world to take up arms.
Of course, you are right. All innocent victims should be remembered.
Quote from: Tonto on March 15, 2013, 06:36:40 PM
Flip, I've just realised this is the guy that killed himself.
Amazing that people make heroes out of suicide victims who were quite happy to support the death of those who, sadly, didn't have the same choice the suicide victims had.
The real heroes are those who died without fuss.
May all innocent victims of Sands' organisation and all other terrorist organisations rest in peace. Their deaths were thankfully not in vain. Unlike Robert's.
Flip, Rossfan just bitch slapped you upside the head! Flip, see below for details!
Flip, what do you think of the collusion between the UDR/RUC/UVF/UDA (pick a combo) and do you think it right they killed innocent nationalists and if so, do you now understand that if your Government had a shred of decency, the Robert Sand's of the world would not have been necessary?
Flip, your concern lies only with those who shared your warped view that the planter are superior beings and therefore entitled to their spoils in our Country.
What part of my previous post didn't you understand?
32years ago today RIP Bobby Sands.Let our revenge be the laughter of our children.
'May God shine on you Bobby Sands, for the courage you have shown, may your glory and your fame be widely known ... ' RIP
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
And I am sure not in the name of other like thinking Unionists and partitionists.
Quote from: glens abu on May 05, 2013, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
And I am sure not in the name of other like thinking Unionists and partitionists.
Sands and his colleagues did more to copper-fasten partition than Carson and Paisley ever did.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
"They will not criminalise us, rob us of our true identity, steal our individualism, depoliticise us, churn us out as systemised, institutionalised, decent law-abiding robots. Never will they label our liberation struggle as criminal....I have been thinking that some people (maybe many people) blame me for this hunger-strike, but I have tried everything possible to avert it short of surrender.I pity those who say that, because they do not know the British and I feel more the pity for them because they don't even know their poor selves. But didn't we have people like that who sought to accuse Tone, Emmet, Pearse, Connolly, Mellowes: that unfortunate attitude is perennial"
RIP Bobby
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
I doubt if your "not in my name" will make much difference to anything. ::)
Remembered by me as a man who stood up for and gave his life for his principles.
Sad thing is the things he and his fellow hunger strikers wanted were all obtained not long afterwards.
Some say they were already on offer but Gerry and the SF leadership are alleged to have refused to pass it on to the lads.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 05, 2013, 02:06:40 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
I doubt if your "not in my name" will make much difference to anything. ::)
Remembered by me as a man who stood up for and gave his life for his principles.
Sad thing is the things he and his fellow hunger strikers wanted were all obtained not long afterwards.
Some say they were already on offer but Gerry and the SF leadership are alleged to have refused to pass it on to the lads.
The lie that is trotted out by the anti SF crowd has never been proved,even the Brits involved in it couldn't help them to discredit the leadership.Bobby Sands was a clever an and was nobody's fool.
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
Yes I use the word correctly. It is not my fault if you think the word means other than it dose. You're as bad as the fleg-crowd thinking Ulster is just 6 counties.
Quote from: glens abu on May 05, 2013, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 05, 2013, 02:06:40 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
I doubt if your "not in my name" will make much difference to anything. ::)
Remembered by me as a man who stood up for and gave his life for his principles.
Sad thing is the things he and his fellow hunger strikers wanted were all obtained not long afterwards.
Some say they were already on offer but Gerry and the SF leadership are alleged to have refused to pass it on to the lads.
The lie that is trotted out by the anti SF crowd has never been proved,even the Brits involved in it couldn't help them to discredit the leadership.Bobby Sands was a clever an and was nobody's fool.
The demands were never 'on the table' during the hunger strike- as a brother of one of the hunger strikers who was the family negotiator on behalf of his brother told me - during the hunger strike.
If the demands that were eventually all met , were all conceded during the hunger strike , then these men would not have all died. Still they set out knowing this could happen and they are casualties of war, much like the dead from either side.
The newly formed sf, Adams et all as well as the IRA and INLA army councils had no bearing in the negotiations as they didn't want the second hunger strike to take ace, so the prisoners didnt include them in negotiations in case they agreed concessions to end the hnger strike- the men wanted all five demands to be met. They died, but these were won.
The hunger strike also massively helped deliver peace and an unprecedented equality to the six counties. That achieved objective has given the plateau and platform to deliver eventual reunification.
There is no denying that this eventuality will happen with the British gov being as much the instigators as Irish republicans!
We are not yet ready for this economically but it won't be that far off. Certainly the 800 years of illegal misrule and partition will continue for. Fraction of the time, with militant republicanism and their actions as well as ten brave men helping deliver the peace, equality and ultimate reunification!
Quote from: camanchero on May 05, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: glens abu on May 05, 2013, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 05, 2013, 02:06:40 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
I doubt if your "not in my name" will make much difference to anything. ::)
Remembered by me as a man who stood up for and gave his life for his principles.
Sad thing is the things he and his fellow hunger strikers wanted were all obtained not long afterwards.
Some say they were already on offer but Gerry and the SF leadership are alleged to have refused to pass it on to the lads.
The lie that is trotted out by the anti SF crowd has never been proved,even the Brits involved in it couldn't help them to discredit the leadership.Bobby Sands was a clever an and was nobody's fool.
The demands were never 'on the table' during the hunger strike- as a brother of one of the hunger strikers who was the family negotiator on behalf of his brother told me - during the hunger strike.
If the demands that were eventually all met , were all conceded during the hunger strike , then these men would not have all died. Still they set out knowing this could happen and they are casualties of war, much like the dead from either side.
The newly formed sf, Adams et all as well as the IRA and INLA army councils had no bearing in the negotiations as they didn't want the second hunger strike to take ace, so the prisoners didnt include them in negotiations in case they agreed concessions to end the hnger strike- the men wanted all five demands to be met. They died, but these were won.
The hunger strike also massively helped deliver peace and an unprecedented equality to the six counties. That achieved objective has given the plateau and platform to deliver eventual reunification.
There is no denying that this eventuality will happen with the British gov being as much the instigators as Irish republicans!
We are not yet ready for this economically but it won't be that far off. Certainly the 800 years of illegal misrule and partition will continue for. Fraction of the time, with militant republicanism and their actions as well as ten brave men helping deliver the peace, equality and ultimate reunification!
1. The only thing Irish republicans ever did to 'deliver peace' was to call off their ill fated campaign of violence, which the vast majority of people in Ireland had been asking them to do for decades;
2. Equality arrived by the mid 70s. The old Stormont was gone, the Housing Executive was in place in by 1972, we had one man one vote, and there was a whole raft of employment and equality legislation. A power sharing Executive with an all Ireland dimension was put in at Sunningdale, but was rejected by Ian Paisley and Irish republicans. Fast forward 20 years and republicans were happy to embrace 'Sunningdale for slow learners' (Seamus Mallon) and claim a seismic victory!
3. Reunification is off the agenda for several decades yet, unfortunately, thanks in part to the IRA campaign. You can't bomb and murder a section of the Irish people for 25 years in the name of reunification, then expect them to believe that they've nothing to fear from a united Ireland.
4. Carry on, LB. ;)
spectacularly wrong on all counts evil myles, but no surprise there!
maybe peace broke out in your house before the 90's but nowhere else in the six counties!
equality wasnt even a word that the unionist/loyalist establishment could spell up until recently, so I think your recollection of he 70's is way off. maybe for your house, but not for the rest of the 6 counties.
also your think sunningdale was acceptable !! LOL
while not nice, the IRA and militant republicans gave a platform for the peace and equality that came about via the GFA.
up untl that point persecution, oppression and inequality persisted.
the reunifcation is now able to proceed because of the stability these republicans brought about.Money talks. The Celtic tiger proved that loyalists/unionists abandon their fear and principles for a fee quid.
you might not like all of this but sure thats your own perogative!
peace in the 70's - 'thats a cracker' as that fat gimp used to say !
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
Yes I use the word correctly. It is not my fault if you think the word means other than it dose. You're as bad as the fleg-crowd thinking Ulster is just 6 counties.
You are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 05, 2013, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
Yes I use the word correctly. It is not my fault if you think the word means other than it dose. You're as bad as the fleg-crowd thinking Ulster is just 6 counties.
You are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
Please, myles, give him a small 'm'. There are anti-partitionist people in Co. Mayo like myself who disagrees a lot with him and his views.
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 05, 2013, 07:56:23 PM
Yadda, yadda, yet more dreary anti-Irish Republican yadda...
Bobby Sands will still have a multitude of worldwide streets named in his honour long after your sorry name hasn't appeared even on the lowest list of the most dishonorable Irish quislings! >:(
Quote from: stew on May 05, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
Enlighten him - what does it mean or stand for?
Quote from: stew on May 05, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
You lads seem to think a Republican means someone who supports and armed struggle, that is not the meaning of the word. Stop trying to change the meaning of a flippen word.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: stew on May 05, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
You lads seem to think a Republican means someone who supports and armed struggle, that is not the meaning of the word. Stop trying to change the meaning of a flippen word.
Ironic! Like I said. Not even a clue!
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: stew on May 05, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
You lads seem to think a Republican means someone who supports and armed struggle, that is not the meaning of the word. Stop trying to change the meaning of a flippen word.
your a paranoid eejit.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 05, 2013, 08:56:13 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 05, 2013, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
Yes I use the word correctly. It is not my fault if you think the word means other than it dose. You're as bad as the fleg-crowd thinking Ulster is just 6 counties.
You are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
Please, myles, give him a small 'm'. There are anti-partitionist people in Co. Mayo like myself who disagrees a lot with him and his views.
I am not a partitionist. However I do hate SF, the Provos, DUP and Loyalists. I do also get rightly pissed off about the abuse spouted on this board against the 26 counties and the Republic in general, Lawnseed being the current catalyst for most of my responses.
I also cannot stand the Poppy, Israeli Defence Forces, international terrorism, Man.Utd., Glasgow Celtic, the Rangers, AC Milan, Ketchup, Fianna Fail, Charles Haughey, Religion, E DeValera, Winston Churchill, George W
Bush, calling Connacht - Connaught, Bertie Ahern, Eoin O'Duffy, Cromwell etc.
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 10:54:34 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: stew on May 05, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
You lads seem to think a Republican means someone who supports and armed struggle, that is not the meaning of the word. Stop trying to change the meaning of a flippen word.
Ironic! Like I said. Not even a clue!
You going to shite on about 90-100 years ago are you. Armed struggle and Republican are not interchangeable.
I particularly like this definition.
An advocate of a republic, a form of government that is not a monarchy or dictatorship, and is generally associated with the rule of law.
Why'd you delete your last post about not giving a f**k about naming streets after people. Did your brain only start to work after you typed. Your definition of republican is fine in global terms but I'm sure you are not so naive as to to think it applies exactly the same in this country?
Quote from: Itchy on May 05, 2013, 11:25:27 PM
Why'd you delete your last post about not giving a f**k about naming streets after people. Did your brain only start to work after you typed. Your definition of republican is fine in global terms but I'm sure you are not so naive as to to think it applies exactly the same in this country?
I thought Fear ón Srath Bán had responded to me, I wasn't impressed. Then I read it again, realised my mistake and corrected it.
That is as close to how I view republicanism as I could find. I think to add other meanings to it you have to affix another word before the word republican.
WUM.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on May 05, 2013, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 05, 2013, 07:56:23 PM
Yadda, yadda, yet more dreary anti-Irish Republican yadda...
Bobby Sands will still have a multitude of worldwide streets named in his honour long after your sorry name hasn't appeared even on the lowest list of the most dishonorable Irish quislings! >:(
Very true, but if I chose to do so, I could take a trip and stroll down some of those streets you talk about. Bobby can't do that. Neither can many of his comrades, nor many of the victims of the IRA. And for what? What did 'armed struggle' achieve? A power sharing arrangement with Peter the Punt and the promise of a border poll sometime in the future? If you'd told that to Bobby Sands and the others 32 years ago, do you think they'd have pressed on with the hunger strike? Do you really think that having a street named after you makes it all worthwhile?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 06, 2013, 12:21:59 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on May 05, 2013, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 05, 2013, 07:56:23 PM
Yadda, yadda, yet more dreary anti-Irish Republican yadda...
Bobby Sands will still have a multitude of worldwide streets named in his honour long after your sorry name hasn't appeared even on the lowest list of the most dishonorable Irish quislings! >:(
Very true...
Amen. Hallelujah troll!
The hunger strikers would have been very happy to see that their sacrifice massively helped bring peace and equality to the six counties ( power sharing is equality - we never looked to annex complete power!!).
This would all have been avoided if equality was there from the start and Irish/nationalist/catholic people were not treated as second class citizens or attacked at will, systematically persecuted an oppressed etc - with various 'agreements' getting better as the years and actions resulted in a final decent accord that was tangible and finally not full of useless doubletalk rhetoric like previous ' agreements'!
The 10 men would have been very happy indeed. The surviving hunger strikers I've spoken to most certainly are!
Its what their families are very happy with!
Quote from: camanchero on May 06, 2013, 01:19:27 AM
The 10 men would have been very happy indeed. The surviving hunger strikers I've spoken to most certainly are!
Its what their families are very happy with!
Isn't there a sister of Bobby Sands who is anything but happy with the outcome ?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 10:58:09 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 05, 2013, 08:56:13 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 05, 2013, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
Yes I use the word correctly. It is not my fault if you think the word means other than it dose. You're as bad as the fleg-crowd thinking Ulster is just 6 counties.
You are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
Please, myles, give him a small 'm'. There are anti-partitionist people in Co. Mayo like myself who disagrees a lot with him and his views.
I am not a partitionist. However I do hate SF, the Provos, DUP and Loyalists. I do also get rightly pissed off about the abuse spouted on this board against the 26 counties and the Republic in general, Lawnseed being the current catalyst for most of my responses.
I also cannot stand the Poppy, Israeli Defence Forces, international terrorism, Man.Utd., Glasgow Celtic, the Rangers, AC Milan, Ketchup, Fianna Fail, Charles Haughey, Religion, E DeValera, Winston Churchill, George W
Bush, calling Connacht - Connaught, Bertie Ahern, Eoin O'Duffy, Cromwell etc.
Have you been to the wee 6 recently? I was up there for a look last month and the place was definitely severely dysfunctional pre 1968. It is a pity that things deteriorated so badly that violence seemed the only way to change things but you can't change history. I wouldn't vote SF either but many people do. At the end of the day NI is part of Ireland regardless of how many Union Jacks are flying there.
There is a very interesting mural on the Falls Road quoting an ancient Irish poem about a blackbird and it puts much unionist ideology in the shade. NI is not really a different country. It's more like a political concoction in flux. The James Craig model didn't last very long.
I wonder how the unionists will deal with the challenges of modernity from here on. I wouldn't fancy being one of their strategists. They'll probably put on a big do for the 100 year anniversary of the battle of the Somme but are the target punters in England going to be even remotely interested?
Quote from: seafoid on May 06, 2013, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 10:58:09 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 05, 2013, 08:56:13 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 05, 2013, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
Yes I use the word correctly. It is not my fault if you think the word means other than it dose. You're as bad as the fleg-crowd thinking Ulster is just 6 counties.
You are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
Please, myles, give him a small 'm'. There are anti-partitionist people in Co. Mayo like myself who disagrees a lot with him and his views.
I am not a partitionist. However I do hate SF, the Provos, DUP and Loyalists. I do also get rightly pissed off about the abuse spouted on this board against the 26 counties and the Republic in general, Lawnseed being the current catalyst for most of my responses.
I also cannot stand the Poppy, Israeli Defence Forces, international terrorism, Man.Utd., Glasgow Celtic, the Rangers, AC Milan, Ketchup, Fianna Fail, Charles Haughey, Religion, E DeValera, Winston Churchill, George W
Bush, calling Connacht - Connaught, Bertie Ahern, Eoin O'Duffy, Cromwell etc.
Have you been to the wee 6 recently? I was up there for a look last month and the place was definitely severely dysfunctional pre 1968. It is a pity that things deteriorated so badly that violence seemed the only way to change things but you can't change history. I wouldn't vote SF either but many people do. At the end of the day NI is part of Ireland regardless of how many Union Jacks are flying there.
There is a very interesting mural on the Falls Road quoting an ancient Irish poem about a blackbird and it puts much unionist ideology in the shade. NI is not really a different country. It's more like a political concoction in flux. The James Craig model didn't last very long.
I wonder how the unionists will deal with the challenges of modernity from here on. I wouldn't fancy being one of their strategists. They'll probably put on a big do for the 100 year anniversary of the battle of the Somme but are the target punters in England going to be even remotely interested?
Not sure how any of that has anything to do with me not supporting the armed "struggle" or the hunger strikes. John Hume, the SDLP, Womens coalition, Moe were the people who inspired me.
Being called a partitionist because I am a pacifist is uncalled for.
Was in the North last summer in Tyrone and Derry.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 06, 2013, 02:37:09 PM
Not sure how any of that has anything to do with me not supporting the armed "struggle" or the hunger strikes. John Hume, the SDLP, Womens coalition, Moe were the people who inspired me.
Being called a partitionist because I am a pacifist is uncalled for.
Was in the North last summer in Tyrone and Derry.
Moe inspired you?
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScdirVoX9ixhYFw_gkYy8Hdh-Hq0b9Cxa0GNsUD67VY3fZHTmZ)
Quote from: muppet on May 06, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 06, 2013, 02:37:09 PM
Not sure how any of that has anything to do with me not supporting the armed "struggle" or the hunger strikes. John Hume, the SDLP, Womens coalition, Moe were the people who inspired me.
Being called a partitionist because I am a pacifist is uncalled for.
Was in the North last summer in Tyrone and Derry.
Moe inspired you?
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScdirVoX9ixhYFw_gkYy8Hdh-Hq0b9Cxa0GNsUD67VY3fZHTmZ)
Looks a bit like her too. (Mo Mowlam)
Quote from: stew on May 05, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
+3
Quote from: seafoid on May 06, 2013, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 10:58:09 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 05, 2013, 08:56:13 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 05, 2013, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on May 05, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 05, 2013, 11:23:53 AM
Remembered - Not in my name as an Irishman and a Republican.
You really have no idea. Not even a clue.
Yes I use the word correctly. It is not my fault if you think the word means other than it dose. You're as bad as the fleg-crowd thinking Ulster is just 6 counties.
You are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
Please, myles, give him a small 'm'. There are anti-partitionist people in Co. Mayo like myself who disagrees a lot with him and his views.
I am not a partitionist. However I do hate SF, the Provos, DUP and Loyalists. I do also get rightly pissed off about the abuse spouted on this board against the 26 counties and the Republic in general, Lawnseed being the current catalyst for most of my responses.
I also cannot stand the Poppy, Israeli Defence Forces, international terrorism, Man.Utd., Glasgow Celtic, the Rangers, AC Milan, Ketchup, Fianna Fail, Charles Haughey, Religion, E DeValera, Winston Churchill, George W
Bush, calling Connacht - Connaught, Bertie Ahern, Eoin O'Duffy, Cromwell etc.
Have you been to the wee 6 recently? I was up there for a look last month and the place was definitely severely dysfunctional pre 1968. It is a pity that things deteriorated so badly that violence seemed the only way to change things but you can't change history. I wouldn't vote SF either but many people do. At the end of the day NI is part of Ireland regardless of how many Union Jacks are flying there.
There is a very interesting mural on the Falls Road quoting an ancient Irish poem about a blackbird and it puts much unionist ideology in the shade. NI is not really a different country. It's more like a political concoction in flux. The James Craig model didn't last very long.
I wonder how the unionists will deal with the challenges of modernity from here on. I wouldn't fancy being one of their strategists. They'll probably put on a big do for the 100 year anniversary of the battle of the Somme but are the target punters in England going to be even remotely interested?
They will probably put a big do on to remember the many thousands of Ulstermen who died there. I wouldn't say the English were the target punters at all. Unionists have known for a long time that people in Great Britain don't give a flying f**k.
Quote from: Newbridge Exile on May 06, 2013, 09:00:04 PM
Quote from: stew on May 05, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on May 05, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
QuoteYou are no republican Mayo, not in any definition. Your constant spitting at everyone from the 6 counties and your partitionist stance on almost everything and every thread are an embarrassment. Do us a favour and stay in f**king England where you belong.
+1
+2 He has no idea what a republican means nor stands for, eejit altogether.
+3
Aye, another one for the hero brigade.
So big lads, what does it mean?
Do you have to wear a balaclava to be one?
Wow, that thread really shook me with some of the comments.
How anyone can be disrespectful to our patriot dead is disgusting, i don't expect every Irish person to be republican minded but to actually take the piss likesomething that would blend in on rangers supporters bus, is more saddening than anything else.
I didn't read through the whole thread but just to clear up one thing, 22 men have died on hungerstrike in the name of Irish republicanism and three of them were from Mayo, the one that has been left out by posters in here is Jack Sean McNeala from Ballycroy who died in 1940 along with his comrade from Galway Tony Darcy.
To the poster MGHU, i reckon if it was left to your kind the red would be above the green, TAL.
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
Quote from: larryin89 on June 04, 2013, 03:14:33 AM
Wow, that thread really shook me with some of the comments.
How anyone can be disrespectful to our patriot dead is disgusting, i don't expect every Irish person to be republican minded but to actually take the piss likesomething that would blend in on rangers supporters bus, is more saddening than anything else.
I didn't read through the whole thread but just to clear up one thing, 22 men have died on hungerstrike in the name of Irish republicanism and three of them were from Mayo, the one that has been left out by posters in here is Jack Sean McNeala from Ballycroy who died in 1940 along with his comrade from Galway Tony Darcy.
To the poster MGHU, i reckon if it was left to your kind the red would be above the green, TAL.
Larry, MGHU is a WUM.
He has been here under different guises, usually with names considered derogatory where he claims to come from, for example
Fishead Sam etc. I have never met a genuine Castlebar person who calls himself a Fishead. What other Mayo person uses the term 'Mayo God help us', a Famine cry for help, as a moniker?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
Thats true mo chara. An ordinary man from healy tce in Ballina, just was working away in England and decided to join up. He was arrested for a bank robbery in a fundraising op somewhere in London.
Ironically enough with the release of Marion Price last week, we are speaking of Gaughan, he started his hunger strike in support of the price sisters back then.
On another note, what do you make of Ricky o Rawes account of what happend during 81 ?
Quote from: larryin89 on June 04, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
Thats true mo chara. An ordinary man from healy tce in Ballina, just was working away in England and decided to join up. He was arrested for a bank robbery in a fundraising op somewhere in London.
Ironically enough with the release of Marion Price last week, we are speaking of Gaughan, he started his hunger strike in support of the price sisters back then.
On another note, what do you make of Ricky o Rawes account of what happend during 81 ?
Balls just more anti Sinn fein crap,I would prefer to believe people like Danny Morrison,Bik McFarlane and others much closer to the men themselves.Every theory he has come up with has been discredited by those closely involved.
Quote from: larryin89 on June 04, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
Thats true mo chara. An ordinary man from healy tce in Ballina, just was working away in England and decided to join up. He was arrested for a bank robbery in a fundraising op somewhere in London.
Ironically enough with the release of Marion Price last week, we are speaking of Gaughan, he started his hunger strike in support of the price sisters back then.
On another note, what do you make of Ricky o Rawes account of what happend during 81 ?
His account has been fairly well discredited at this stage. From an article by Danny Morrison:
Now, Richard O'Rawe's account is that on Sunday Bik told him that I brought a deal into the jail from the British and "that the underlying substance of our demands was being conceded to us."
Of course, the problem Richard now has is that the recently-released government records of the phone calls to Duddy make clear that on Sunday afternoon (while I am in the jail) the British have not yet even formulated their offer!
It reads: "We [the British] explained that it was important, before drafting any document for consultation by ministers, that we should possess the Provisionals' views. Soon [Brendan Duddy] then undertook to seek clear views on their position, which would be relayed to us later after discussion in the light of Morrison's visit."
Richard's book then claims that the following day, Monday afternoon, the IRA's army council sent Bik a letter rejecting the Brit offer as unacceptable and that "Bik and I were shattered."
No such letter could have been written that Monday afternoon because Duddy (see his handwritten notes, below) has noted the time that the offer actually arrived – 11.30pm, Monday night, and shortly afterwards he phoned it through to us. Furthermore, a letter written by Bik at 11pm on Monday night (published in 'Ten Men Dead'), comprehensively discussing that day's events makes no mention of such an IRA order.
Richard's book then claims that on the 5th/6th July, 1981, the leadership took a decision to allow men to die so that it could get Owen Carron elected in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. But the writ for the by-election was not moved and passed by the Tories until the 28th July.(http://www.dannymorrison.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/back-duddy-offer3.gif)
Quote from: muppet on June 04, 2013, 11:43:55 AM
Quote from: larryin89 on June 04, 2013, 03:14:33 AM
Wow, that thread really shook me with some of the comments.
How anyone can be disrespectful to our patriot dead is disgusting, i don't expect every Irish person to be republican minded but to actually take the piss likesomething that would blend in on rangers supporters bus, is more saddening than anything else.
I didn't read through the whole thread but just to clear up one thing, 22 men have died on hungerstrike in the name of Irish republicanism and three of them were from Mayo, the one that has been left out by posters in here is Jack Sean McNeala from Ballycroy who died in 1940 along with his comrade from Galway Tony Darcy.
To the poster MGHU, i reckon if it was left to your kind the red would be above the green, TAL.
Larry, MGHU is a WUM.
He has been here under different guises, usually with names considered derogatory where he claims to come from, for example Fishead Sam etc. I have never met a genuine Castlebar person who calls himself a Fishead. What other Mayo person uses the term 'Mayo God help us', a Famine cry for help, as a moniker?
Muppet, I am not WUMing, this stuff is far too serious. I do try to stay of the armed conflict threads, but I am so opposed to violence they just get me wound up. The Loyalists, Brits, Israelis, Yanks, Iranians also tend to get the lash of my tongue(type) on this board too. My stance is a secular, pacifist, republican (it seems my defintion is not the same as some others here), Irish nationalist (in the seperatist, self determination sense). I am very pro-European Union, and I think Ballaghaderreen should be returned to Mayo.
MGHU, you don't seem to quite get the message, so perhaps in another
guise you are one particularly sickening cnut. Please go away.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
You really need to get out more.
Quote from: hardstation on June 08, 2013, 12:38:25 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 07, 2013, 11:38:30 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
You really need to get out more.
I'm sure you say that to every person you ever see wearing a poppy.
You think Gaughan was a hero, worthy of remembrance? See, many people think he was a traitor to Ireland. Some people think the current crop of dissidents are patriots, fighting for their country. Marty, on the other hand, has called
them traitors to Ireland. They obviously think Marty and Gerry are the treacherous ones. Ruairí Ó Brádaigh also thought the Provos were traitors and sell outs, but the Sticks thought that it was Ruari and O'Connell and John Stevens (not the cop, the English provie) who had betrayed the cause. Of course, the officials themselves were the remnants of the anti treaty faction, which was regarded by the pro treaty people as traitors. Obviously the staters were hated by the die hards, who regarded them as major traitors. And I haven't a clue where the INLA and the IPLO fit in the hero-traitor spectrum. It's all very confusing. Who gets to decide these things? Who decides the heroes from the traitors and how do they tell the difference? Who gets the song and the mural and who gets dumped in a ditch on the border?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 08, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
You think Gaughan was a hero, worthy of remembrance? See, I think he was a traitor to Ireland. ......
Who decides the heroes from the traitors
You seem to have taken that task on yourself ::)
Quote from: Rossfan on June 08, 2013, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 08, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
You think Gaughan was a hero, worthy of remembrance? See, I think he was a traitor to Ireland. ......
Who decides the heroes from the traitors
You seem to have taken that task on yourself ::)
Fair point, well made. Edit done.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 08, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
Quote from: hardstation on June 08, 2013, 12:38:25 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 07, 2013, 11:38:30 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
You really need to get out more.
I'm sure you say that to every person you ever see wearing a poppy.
You think Gaughan was a hero, worthy of remembrance? See, many people think he was a traitor to Ireland. Some people think the current crop of dissidents are patriots, fighting for their country. Marty, on the other hand, has called them traitors to Ireland. They obviously think Marty and Gerry are the treacherous ones. Ruairí Ó Brádaigh also thought the Provos were traitors and sell outs, but the Sticks thought that it was Ruari and O'Connell and John Stevens (not the cop, the English provie) who had betrayed the cause. Of course, the officials themselves were the remnants of the anti treaty faction, which was regarded by the pro treaty people as traitors. Obviously the staters were hated by the die hards, who regarded them as major traitors. And I haven't a clue where the INLA and the IPLO fit in the hero-traitor spectrum. It's all very confusing. Who gets to decide these things? Who decides the heroes from the traitors and how do they tell the difference? Who gets the song and the mural and who gets dumped in a ditch on the border?
Your some boy to be telling others to get out more ::)
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 08, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
You think Gaughan was a hero, worthy of remembrance? See, many people think he was a traitor to Ireland. Some people think the current crop of dissidents are patriots, fighting for their country. Marty, on the other hand, has called them traitors to Ireland. They obviously think Marty and Gerry are the treacherous ones. Ruairí Ó Brádaigh also thought the Provos were traitors and sell outs, but the Sticks thought that it was Ruari and O'Connell and John Stevens (not the cop, the English provie) who had betrayed the cause. Of course, the officials themselves were the remnants of the anti treaty faction, which was regarded by the pro treaty people as traitors. Obviously the staters were hated by the die hards, who regarded them as major traitors. And I haven't a clue where the INLA and the IPLO fit in the hero-traitor spectrum. It's all very confusing. Who gets to decide these things? Who decides the heroes from the traitors and how do they tell the difference? Who gets the song and the mural and who gets dumped in a ditch on the border?
Now, now Myles, all you need to know is that
"There can be no Hierarchy of Traitors"...
Quote from: larryin89 on June 04, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
Thats true mo chara. An ordinary man from healy tce in Ballina, just was working away in England and decided to join up. He was arrested for a bank robbery in a fundraising op somewhere in London.
Ironically enough with the release of Marion Price last week, we are speaking of Gaughan, he started his hunger strike in support of the price sisters back then.
On another note, what do you make of Ricky o Rawes account of what happend during 81 ?
yer forgetting Frank Stagg - another good mayo man !
on the o'rawe thing - he was a complete unknown at the time of the hunger strikes and his only claim to fame might be that he was in the H block cells and may have knew some of the hunger strikers.
he had no part in the leadership in the cells and was nothing to do with the hunger strikers or hunger strike - apart from possibly supporting it at the time.
just spotting his chance to sell a few books and make a few quid - as in the cold light of day, now that equality and parity have been achieved, these lads have nothing- they put their lives and careers on hold to do what they had to do to protect their communities.
I dont agree with his book or its sentiments, but maybe he is just doing what he can to make some money back.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on June 08, 2013, 02:18:34 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on June 04, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
Thats true mo chara. An ordinary man from healy tce in Ballina, just was working away in England and decided to join up. He was arrested for a bank robbery in a fundraising op somewhere in London.
Ironically enough with the release of Marion Price last week, we are speaking of Gaughan, he started his hunger strike in support of the price sisters back then.
On another note, what do you make of Ricky o Rawes account of what happend during 81 ?
yer forgetting Frank Stagg - another good mayo man !
on the o'rawe thing - he was a complete unknown at the time of the hunger strikes and his only claim to fame might be that he was in the H block cells and may have knew some of the hunger strikers.
he had no part in the leadership in the cells and was nothing to do with the hunger strikers or hunger strike - apart from possibly supporting it at the time.
just spotting his chance to sell a few books and make a few quid - as in the cold light of day, now that equality and parity have been achieved, these lads have nothing- they put their lives and careers on hold to do what they had to do to protect their communities.
I dont agree with his book or its sentiments, but maybe he is just doing what he can to make some money back.
O'Rawe was the IRA's PRO in the camp at the time of the hunger strike - hardly an unknown. And despite Danny Morrison's twisting and turnings, O'Rawe's account has been vindicated in the light of papers released after Thatcher's death.
http://thepensivequill.am/2013/05/thatchers-archive-finally-settles.html
Yes I've heard that one too myles.
He could have appointed himself H block bar manager or H block travel agent and have been equally effective in those too!
I asked a Hunger striker's brother about orawe when the book was released and was told that he thought he had heard of him, but he had nothing to do with the Hunger strikers - and this man was the 'negotiator' for that Hunger striker and his family.
So he can name himself whatever he wants- he was as useful or as utilized as a chocolate teapot!
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 02:17:07 PM
Quote from: larryin89 on June 04, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 04, 2013, 08:04:44 AM
Larry, just when you mention Mayo Hunger Strikers, Vol. Michael Gaughan died 39 years ago yesterday.
Thats true mo chara. An ordinary man from healy tce in Ballina, just was working away in England and decided to join up. He was arrested for a bank robbery in a fundraising op somewhere in London.
Ironically enough with the release of Marion Price last week, we are speaking of Gaughan, he started his hunger strike in support of the price sisters back then.
On another note, what do you make of Ricky o Rawes account of what happend during 81 ?
His account has been fairly well discredited at this stage. From an article by Danny Morrison:
Now, Richard O'Rawe's account is that on Sunday Bik told him that I brought a deal into the jail from the British and "that the underlying substance of our demands was being conceded to us."
Of course, the problem Richard now has is that the recently-released government records of the phone calls to Duddy make clear that on Sunday afternoon (while I am in the jail) the British have not yet even formulated their offer!
It reads: "We [the British] explained that it was important, before drafting any document for consultation by ministers, that we should possess the Provisionals' views. Soon [Brendan Duddy] then undertook to seek clear views on their position, which would be relayed to us later after discussion in the light of Morrison's visit."
Richard's book then claims that the following day, Monday afternoon, the IRA's army council sent Bik a letter rejecting the Brit offer as unacceptable and that "Bik and I were shattered."
No such letter could have been written that Monday afternoon because Duddy (see his handwritten notes, below) has noted the time that the offer actually arrived – 11.30pm, Monday night, and shortly afterwards he phoned it through to us. Furthermore, a letter written by Bik at 11pm on Monday night (published in 'Ten Men Dead'), comprehensively discussing that day's events makes no mention of such an IRA order.
Richard's book then claims that on the 5th/6th July, 1981, the leadership took a decision to allow men to die so that it could get Owen Carron elected in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. But the writ for the by-election was not moved and passed by the Tories until the 28th July.
(http://www.dannymorrison.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/back-duddy-offer3.gif)
On the contrary, O'Rawe's account has been shown to be accurate both by the release of Brendan Duddy's papers and by Thatcher's own archive.
http://thepensivequill.am/2013/05/thatchers-archive-finally-settles.html
In effect, the IRA leadership on the outside blocked a settlement and allowed 6 hunger strikers to die when the prisoners on the inside had seen an offer from the British they were happy with.
sorry myles,
I know who i'd trust on this one - a direct 'negotiator' on one of the hunger strikers families or some re-hashed history from thatcher or others who have been shown up by the Hunger Strik and hunger Strikers!
( I have met members of at least four of the families back then and they were all saying the same thing at the time).
this is the same old story coming up every few years.
The british gov gave the same offer as they did for the first hunger striker in december 1980 - which when looked at by the H block men, was seen to be way short of what they were looking for - hence the second hunger strike.
the IRA and INLA leadership (there were two remember- so that ficticious nonsense doesnt even stack up) were not party to the negotiations as the Hunger Strikers felt that the leadership of at least the IRA would have tried to stop the uHnger strike (the IRA didnt want it happening in the first place).
I know you want to believe those stories myles, but as I was talking to his man more or less every day during the Hunger Strike, I know the daily events and they are not what you'd like to believe.
If anything, you'd have ben in agreement with the IRA leadership on this !
whatever orawe was, and I or many others dont remember his name once back at that time - he certainly had nothing to do with the Hunger Strike or Hunger Strikers.
There was no full agreement on the table until after or around Mickey Devine died.
you can read up on cain or any other flawed databases you like or even these wee scanned notes - they have no relevence as the individuals were not involved. The truth and reality is far from what you want to believe.
'I've always suspected that...there were more reasons than would appear for allowing the hunger strike to go on for so long, political reasons, ambitious reasons...And I have heard some stories which I cannot confirm...where people were ignored, parents were ignored, mothers were ignored when they went to the leadership and asked the leadership to order an end to the hunger strike. I have heard stories that the leadership ignored these requests, which leads you to suspect that were other reasons rather than the five demands.
So I believe that...from outside's point of view there were purely political reasons to keep the thing going.'
Brendan Hughes, interviewed for 'Voices From The Grave', 4 years before the publication of Richard O'Rawe's book 'Blanketmen'
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 09, 2013, 05:49:56 PM
'I've always suspected that...there were more reasons than would appear for allowing the hunger strike to go on for so long, political reasons, ambitious reasons...And I have heard some stories which I cannot confirm...where people were ignored, parents were ignored, mothers were ignored when they went to the leadership and asked the leadership to order an end to the hunger strike. I have heard stories that the leadership ignored these requests, which leads you to suspect that were other reasons rather than the five demands.
So I believe that...from outside's point of view there were purely political reasons to keep the thing going.'
Brendan Hughes, interviewed for 'Voices From The Grave', 4 years before the publication of Richard O'Rawe's book 'Blanketmen'
thats fine myles , but I can assure you that this did not affect the Hunger Strikers and their five demands.
They were going against the IRA and indeed INLA leadership in the second Hunger Strike so I dont really what you are saying as having any affect on the actual Hunger Strike and quest for the five demands.
I cannot really help or debate with you here as what you are saying has/had no interface with the actual Hunger Strike/Hunger Strikers (or their families).
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1229833_620966304625501_1621612803_n.png)
Remembering one of Mayo's finest, who died 35 years ago today.
OF the 22 Irish republicans who died on hunger strike, three died in prisons in England. They were Terence Mac Swiney in Brixton Prison, London, in 1920; Michael Gaughan in Parkhurst Prison, Isle of Wight, in 1974; and Frank Stagg in Wakefield Prison, Yorkshire, in 1976. Gaughan and Stagg were both Mayomen, two of the many thousands who emigrated from their native county in the 1960s and 1970s.
Frank Stagg was born near Hollymount, County Mayo, in 1941. He emigrated to England where he worked as a bus conductor and driver. He married Bridie Armstrong in 1970. Frank Stagg joined Sinn Féin in Luton in 1972 and shortly afterwards joined the IRA. The Six Counties were in political turmoil as the British Government tried to suppress the republican people with brutal military force. Solidarity with the struggle reached across the Irish Diaspora, not least among the Irish in Britain.
The IRA began a bombing campaign in Britain in 1972. Widespread arrests and jailings followed, with the British authorities making use of catch-all conspiracy laws that allowed judges to convict with little or no evidence beyond the word of the police. Frank Stagg was arrested in April 1973 and charged with conspiring to commit arson. The following November he was sentenced to ten years in prison, having been described at his trial as the Officer Commanding the Coventry unit of the IRA.
Irish republican prisoners in England faced brutality, isolation and frequent moves from prison to prison. This was Stagg's experience from the beginning and from his first day in prison he asserted his right to be treated as a political prisoner. In Albany, Parkhurst, Long Lartin and Wakefield prisons he was held in solitary confinement. Another republican prisoner held in solitary in that period was the late Raymond McLaughlin from Donegal, father of Sinn Féin Donegal North-East candidate Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, He described his feelings:
"The political prisoner has an advantage over ordinary prisoners here because of his strong feelings of comradeship with his comrades who may be languishing in the same prison or in any one of the British and Irish prisons.
"He thinks about the guerrilla campaign, its successes and failures; about his own operations and any mistakes he resolves never to make again. He brushes up on the theory of guerrilla warfare as adopted by himself; he makes mental notes about questions he will ask his comrades when he gets back into circulation again.
"He ponders over the hypocrisy and sheer opportunism of the average politician and vows that this type of politician will never emerge in 'Eire Nua'."
In March 1974, Frank Stagg and Michael Gaughan joined the hunger strike of their comrades from Belfast, the Price sisters, Hugh Feeney and Gerry Kelly, now an MLA for North Belfast and a junior minister in the Assembly Executive. The prisoners were brutally force-fed, a form of torture in which prison doctors participated. This resulted in the death of Michael Gaughan on June 3rd 1974. Frank Stagg fasted for 70 days during that strike.
In 1975, Stagg wrote to his father, reflecting on the political situation in Ireland. (The politicians referred to in the letter are members of the Fine Gael/Labour Government: Paddy Cooney, Conor Cruise O'Brien and Garret FitzGerald, Emmet is Emmet Stagg, Frank's brother, today a Labour TD.)
"I see our men in Portlaoise and the Curragh are still on hunger strike and Cooney seems as determined as ever to let them die... I have started on a seven-day token fast in sympathy with them this week myself.
"It really is a scandal that the people allow this man Cooney to carry on the way he does. I suppose Emmet is still clinging to the coat-tails of Conor Cruise O'Brien and FitzGerald. God help Ireland to be in the hands of such traitors."
Frank Stagg's final hunger strike began on December 14th 1975. It was endured in appalling conditions. The Catholic Bishop of Leeds, Dr Wheeler, ordered that the republican prisoner be denied the sacraments of the church. Among the psychological efforts to break Stagg was the placing of an empty coffin across the landing within sight of his cell.
In a message to the Republican Movement, Frank Stagg wrote:
"We are a risen people. This time we must not be driven into the gutter, even if this should mean dying for justice. The fight must go on. I want my memorial to be Peace with Justice."
On February 12th 1976, Frank Stagg died after fasting for 62 days. His ordeal was not over. Against his own expressed wishes and those of his family, his body was hijacked by the Fine Gael/Labour Government who had it flown to Shannon Airport and locked in the mortuary from which famly members were excluded.
Frank's body was then taken to Ballina where it was buried by the Garda Special Branch who had six feet of concrete poured on the coffin to prevent reburial. This was all to stop him being honoured with a republican funeral as his comrade Michael Gaughan had been, with thousands of people paying their respects in London, Dublin and across Ireland to Ballina.
But Frank Stagg's wishes were fulfilled on November 6th 1976 when IRA Volunteers re-interred him in the Republican Plot beside Michael Gaughan in Leigue Cemetery, Ballina.
(http://www.anphoblacht.com/files/wp-images/2011/01/stagg-mian.jpg)
Acting under orders from the Fine Gael/Labour Government, the Garda Special Branch hijacked Frank's body
God Bless
33years ago today"I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world.May God have mercy on my soul"
The Men of Art have lost their heart
They dream within their dreams
Their glory sold for price of gold
Amidst a people's screams
They sketch the moon and capture bloom
With genius, so they say
But ne'er they sketch the quaking wretch
Who lies in Castlereagh
"After we are gone what will you say you were doing? Will you say you were with us in our struggle? Or were you conforming to the very system that drove us to our deaths"