The Heineken Cup Thread

[Hardy]

What sanction do the unions hold, should the clubs in the various countries go ahead and set up an unapproved competition? If the clubs and their players were suspended from their unions, would this have any practical effect? I presume it would mean the players couldn't play in internationals. Would it mean anything else? Would the death of international rugby reduce the audience for rugby sufficiently for this threat to be a deterrent to proceeding with the rogue league?

The Welsh and English Unions don't have any sanctions really as the clubs/regions are privately owned/run with the players contracted to and payed by the clubs as opposed to Ireland/Italy where the players have either central contracts to the national team or provincial contracts which are payed by the unions. I am not sure but I think the Scottish have the same setup or very similar as us and the Italians.
 
  The French situation is the most interesting. While the clubs are privately owned and the players directly contracted to them they have to by law have any new competition they enter sanctioned by their sports minister and agreement by the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) otherwise the sanctions being that the games in a rogue competition cannot be shown on any TV station ( free to air or pay per view) in France eg. Canal Plus etc... and the clubs cannot use any ground owned by municipal councils ( I think Stade Francias are the only club to own their ground with the rest i.e Toulon , Racing , Clermont , Toulouse etc.. using ground provide by the city municipal council) which would make the participation worthless in exposure and financial terms.

Thanks for that. Does this not mean that if the FFR doesn't sanction the new competition, it's dead in the water?

[johnneycool]

All the rugby unions involved and the IRB have to sanction this tournament. The Welsh have obviously decided that the english and french unions will sanction it and they've jumped first.

The Irish, Scottish and Italians have no choice now and will get the shitty end of the anglo-french stick it seems.

[Crete Boom]

What sanction do the unions hold, should the clubs in the various countries go ahead and set up an unapproved competition? If the clubs and their players were suspended from their unions, would this have any practical effect? I presume it would mean the players couldn't play in internationals. Would it mean anything else? Would the death of international rugby reduce the audience for rugby sufficiently for this threat to be a deterrent to proceeding with the rogue league?

The Welsh and English Unions don't have any sanctions really as the clubs/regions are privately owned/run with the players contracted to and payed by the clubs as opposed to Ireland/Italy where the players have either central contracts to the national team or provincial contracts which are payed by the unions. I am not sure but I think the Scottish have the same setup or very similar as us and the Italians.
 
  The French situation is the most interesting. While the clubs are privately owned and the players directly contracted to them they have to by law have any new competition they enter sanctioned by their sports minister and agreement by the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) otherwise the sanctions being that the games in a rogue competition cannot be shown on any TV station ( free to air or pay per view) in France eg. Canal Plus etc... and the clubs cannot use any ground owned by municipal councils ( I think Stade Francias are the only club to own their ground with the rest i.e Toulon , Racing , Clermont , Toulouse etc.. using ground provide by the city municipal council) which would make the participation worthless in exposure and financial terms.

Thanks for that. Does this not mean that if the FFR doesn't sanction the new competition, it's dead in the water?

As I understand it the sports minister needs the FFR to agree before he can sanction the new competition so yes if the FFR aren't convinced the Rugby Champions more money for English Premier Teams Cup would be dead in the water.

There isn't really about the Rabo teams having guaranteed qualification it is about money full stop!!!!!!!

First of all the Welsh regions are broke without any European competition and would go under in the morning if it was only the Rabo for them even if this was only for one season. Throw in the fact that while the WRU have increased their profits over the last decade their policy is to pay down their debt on RWC 1999/the Millennium Stadium as soon as possible so they won't increase their funding of the regions to beyond 50% of their running costs. This means that the region have no safety net so the offer of 600k more a year more than they currently get for the HEC is better than oblivion so they were always going to jump ship to the English clubs and whatever scraps they throw their way.

Secondly the English clubs just want money and lots of it so they went out and landed the BT TV deal bonanza but BT wanted the rights to all games involving the clubs so here is where they conflict started. The ERC negotiates the TV rights for the HEC and the Unions deal with the ERC not the clubs so Premier League Rugby wanted rid of the HEC purely so the could have the exclusive deal with BT which would ensure that all the clubs would be profitable (only four clubs make a profit at the moment) which would make their sugar daddy owners (who make up the PRL board) happy. They don't really care if there is a European competition at all. Also they want the balance of power over the RFU akin to the soccer clubs over the FA using the TV rights blueprint of the Premier League to fund the clubs.Also more TV money and power means they can raise their salary cap and challenge the French clubs for the top players.

Thirdly the French clubs don't want a European cup unless the money matches what they get out of the top 14. A Quatar backed TV company has come on the scene this year which has sparked a bidding war with Canal Plus for the TV rights similar to BT and Sky in England. They don't mind the HEC per say but they would like to expand the top 14. If they could have less HEC weekends and more Top 14 matches they would but unlike the English , clubs the combination of Sugar Daddy owners and the huge TV money , they are in a surer financial position so they could be open to retaining HEC if the teams were reduced to 22 and ERC revamped to have some club representatives on it but really it's the top 14 they care about so again they don't live or die by the survival of European rugby. There stance is definitely not as antagonistic as the English though.

Really they ultimate aim of the English and the French is to do away with any competition controlled by the Unions and then take on the dominance of international rugby and the Six nations so they can make more money and have total control of the players they sign. If they succeed in taking down the Heineken cup , the Six Nations will be next in line!! They IRB won't get involved unless the RWC cup comes under threat as this is their main cash cow which is realatively safe as it only happens every four years.

[Crete Boom]

All the rugby unions involved and the IRB have to sanction this tournament. The Welsh have obviously decided that the english and french unions will sanction it and they've jumped first.

The Irish, Scottish and Italians have no choice now and will get the shitty end of the anglo-french stick it seems.

  Well technically yes but in reality apart from the French, Irish, Italian and Scottish Unions they don't have any meaningful (financial) way of punishing the clubs. The IRB don't care as long as the RWC is left alone and have already acknowledged that they would sanction a new competition before quickly rowing back on their comments after the local Unions went nuts. They won't get involved in what they see as a local issue. The RFU won't follow through on any threats as the clubs would refuse to release the players for national team duty as the agreements over player availability are only a year long and are reviewed annually (  they are only worried about RWC 2015). Also the players pay cheques comes from the club's own coffers not the unions as in Ireland/Italy/Scotland. The WRU have the same problem with the players pay coming from the clubs so if they clubs refused to release them for the international team there isn't much the Union can do. The FFR have the same problem to an extent but having the sports minister having the deciding vote on this new champions cup does give them a bargaining chip but they and the clubs wouldn't shed a million tears if there was no European Cup competition so it's only really us , the Italians and the Scots who will be wiped out with the Welsh to follow or more likely be absorbed by the English like Swansea/Cardiff in soccer.

[Hardy]

An informative synopsis, Crete Boom - thanks. Ultimately this seems to be a power play between the clubs/commercial interests and the governing body structure surviving from amateur days and it's hard to see it ending with this issue.

The commercial interests usually win battles like this. Does the IRB's ultimate sanction constitute an effective protection for the status quo? I presume there can't be international rugby without the IRB. But what's to stop the club owners setting up their own provisional IRB and running their own international competitions?

[muppet]

An informative synopsis, Crete Boom - thanks. Ultimately this seems to be a power play between the clubs/commercial interests and the governing body structure surviving from amateur days and it's hard to see it ending with this issue.

The commercial interests usually win battles like this. Does the IRB's ultimate sanction constitute an effective protection for the status quo? I presume there can't be international rugby with the IRB. But what's to stop the club owners setting up their own provisional IRB and running their own international competitions?

A split on the horizon?

Get your money on an Irish grand slam!

[Hardy]

Excuse the typo (corrected) in post above which rendered the second paragraph into gibberish. I had "with the IRB" instead of "without the IRB".

[Crete Boom]

An informative synopsis, Crete Boom - thanks. Ultimately this seems to be a power play between the clubs/commercial interests and the governing body structure surviving from amateur days and it's hard to see it ending with this issue.

The commercial interests usually win battles like this. Does the IRB's ultimate sanction constitute an effective protection for the status quo? I presume there can't be international rugby without the IRB. But what's to stop the club owners setting up their own provisional IRB and running their own international competitions?

Pretty much got it one there Hardy.

Well if France , Wales and England decided to supplant their Unions and create new international setups they would only have to convince South Africa to join them and this would cause the Kiwis/ Australia / Islanders/Argentina to follow fairly quickly so yes it is very plausible that they clubs could take on the IRB if they didn't side with them.

To top it all off here is a link to the ERC's proposed deal (well complete capitulation to the demands) ,
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/25300.php#.UmlHbHCsim4 .

They pretty much have ceded everything to the clubs but there is no mention of who will run the competition or the TV rights so there is a bit to go yet!!!

[Walter Cronc]

The English, French, Scottish, Welsh, Irish and Italian governing bodies have agreed to change the structure of European club rugby.

After meetings in Dublin, they agreed on the formation of two tweaked competitions of 20 teams each as well as a change in revenue distribution.

But top English and French clubs, who have proposed a breakaway competition from next season, were not present.

The Anglo-French plan has been backed by the four Welsh regions.

Premiership Rugby (PRL) in England and Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) in France say they will have no involvement in the Heineken Cup or Amlin Challenge Cup from next season.

Instead of competing in European Rugby Cup (ERC) competitions, the PRL and LNR plan to form an alternative Rugby Champions Cup.

Details of this competition could be rolled out next month.

PRL and LNR are unhappy at how teams qualify for the Heineken Cup, especially from the RaboDirect Pro12 league, and how proceeds are shared.

Currently, only the top six clubs in England and France are guaranteed a place in the Heineken Cup, whereas at least 10 Pro12 outfits - including both Scottish teams (Edinburgh and Glasgow), both Italian teams (Treviso and Zebre) and a minimum of three sides each from Wales and Ireland - have automatic entry into the competition.

As part of the new proposals, only seven clubs from the Pro12 would qualify for the primary tournament.

In addition, the revenue would be split evenly between the three leagues - the English Premiership, France's Top 14 and the Pro12 - as proposed by English and French clubs in June of last year.

But PRL said Thursday's developments offer "no more than half a solution" to the crisis.

"It seems that the proposals we have made on competition formats and on financial distribution have been accepted," said its chief executive Mark McCafferty.

"Hopefully, it is a sign that in due course the whole approach we've been proposing is bought into. I guess time will tell.

"It is far from complete, but the pieces they have commented on are in line with what we've proposed.

"We have always said that there is no way we are going into any competitions that are run by ERC after the end of this season. That hasn't changed.

"We feel a fresh start has got to be made."

Remaining stumbling blocks are the rival television broadcasting deals between Sky and BT and the insistence of English and French outfits that clubs should run European competitions, rather than the unions.

Representatives from the Rugby Football Union, French Rugby Federation, Scottish Rugby Union, Welsh Rugby Union, Irish Rugby Union and Italian Rugby Federation were all present in Dublin.

They issued a statement which read: "Progress has been made on a number of issues relating to the future of European club rugby competition.

"The primary competition would be made up of 20 clubs, with six each from PRL and the LNR, and seven from the Pro12 tournament.

"The clubs would come through meritocratic qualification from their respective leagues and, in the case of the Pro12, there will be at least one club guaranteed from each country.

"In year one, the 20th place would be allocated through a play-off match between the seventh-placed PRL and LNR clubs.

"The secondary competition would consist of up to 20 clubs made up of the remaining 18 PRL, LNR and Pro12 clubs. Two places could be allocated to clubs qualifying from a third competition.

"There is also consensus that distributable revenues generated through the competitions would be divided one third, one third, one third per league with the stipulation that monies to be received by the Pro12 countries would not be less than the current levels."

The PRL, the LNR and the four Welsh regions have not yet been consulted on the proposals and it is unclear who will run these proposed European club competitions from next year.

[trileacman]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2013/1128/489759-heineken-cup/

I know it wasn't a complete capitulation and we are looking at changes but it's delightful to see the climb down these poor bastards have had to make. Gives the four nations particular negotiating strength too since the English would be working at half levels without the HC. I wonder how the FFR got clubs onside?

What's the outcome now anyway, puts the ERC back in the driving seat and throws a spanner in the English plan for the Virgin Sports takeover.

[sans pessimism]

Great win  for Connacht in France against Toulouse!

[INDIANA]

Great win  for Connacht in France against Toulouse!

equivalent of Cobh Ramblers beating Barcelona in the Nou Camp.

[Syferus]

Hardly, given Connacht's record of results in Europe. Monetarily speaking there's obviously a massive ocean between the two.
Up the Wesht.

[rodney trotter]

Super performance from Dan Parks. Massive win for Connacht. All 4 Irish teams won this weekend.

[INDIANA]

Hardly, given Connacht's record of results in Europe. Monetarily speaking there's obviously a massive ocean between the two.
Up the Wesht.

remind of their record in france in the HEC?