The Heineken Cup Thread

[trileacman]

Lets be honest. This is the death of Connacht, Dragons and one of the Scottish clubs. To be honest the Scots will have to amalgamate the two clubs left.

Connact would be better off competitively speaking playing in the Amlin Cup or its successor and sure they only make the European Cup when Munster or Leinster win it anyways. Are Connacht even being particularly well-funded? I doubt this stuff will decide their future one way or the other. The IRFU has mulled over culling them long before any of this stuff came up.

Connacht are financially better off playing in the HC. Fact.

It steals funding and revenue from the smaller rugby nations to be retained by the strongest French/English clubs. Be certain it spells the death of Connacht rugby.

[bcarrier]

It's my ball and I'm going home ....

[johnneycool]

Lets be honest. This is the death of Connacht, Dragons and one of the Scottish clubs. To be honest the Scots will have to amalgamate the two clubs left.

Connact would be better off competitively speaking playing in the Amlin Cup or its successor and sure they only make the European Cup when Munster or Leinster win it anyways. Are Connacht even being particularly well-funded? I doubt this stuff will decide their future one way or the other. The IRFU has mulled over culling them long before any of this stuff came up.

There's no doubt the English Premier clubs in particular are using the smokescreen of the ease of qualification of the Irish provinces as a chance to get a bigger slice of the TV monies pie. Not sure how the could agree a contract without IRB and their RFU approval. Are they a law onto themselves?

I can see a power struggle over this in England in particular.

[muppet]

They're defending Aironi, Zebre, Dragons, Glasgow and Connacht. Not truly the same as defending your own existence as you predict may happen. What could they do? Banish Munster and Leinster from the competition (and the cash that they bring with them)?

That is what they are threatening.

[deiseach]

I'd feel sorry for the IRFU . . . if it weren't for the fact that they went mental when the government proposed turning off the flow of money from Sky or alcohol sponsorship, roping in all their buddies in the media (of which there are many) for a full court press against any change to the status quo. All that effort, and they blithely ignored the threat that was there once BT became a player in the TV market. What was the strategy here? Hope it would go away?

[trileacman]

They're defending Aironi, Zebre, Dragons, Glasgow and Connacht. Not truly the same as defending your own existence as you predict may happen. What could they do? Banish Munster and Leinster from the competition (and the cash that they bring with them)?

That is what they are threatening.

Not a runner, IMO. What are they gonna do? Throw out the top 2 clubs in Europe of the last 8 years and then go arrange a championship without them? Would be like Spanish, Italian and English telling the Krauts they couldn't play European soccer.

[muppet]

They're defending Aironi, Zebre, Dragons, Glasgow and Connacht. Not truly the same as defending your own existence as you predict may happen. What could they do? Banish Munster and Leinster from the competition (and the cash that they bring with them)?

That is what they are threatening.

Not a runner, IMO. What are they gonna do? Throw out the top 2 clubs in Europe of the last 8 years and then go arrange a championship without them? Would be like Spanish, Italian and English telling the Krauts they couldn't play European soccer.

Or the Spanish, Italian and Krauts banning English teams for over half a decade.

Oh wait.

[Syferus]

They're defending Aironi, Zebre, Dragons, Glasgow and Connacht. Not truly the same as defending your own existence as you predict may happen. What could they do? Banish Munster and Leinster from the competition (and the cash that they bring with them)?

That is what they are threatening.

Not a runner, IMO. What are they gonna do? Throw out the top 2 clubs in Europe of the last 8 years and then go arrange a championship without them? Would be like Spanish, Italian and English telling the Krauts they couldn't play European soccer.

Or the Spanish, Italian and Krauts banning English teams for over half a decade.

Oh wait.

Those South Dublin rugger types are fair oul' animals. As bad as Armagh hurlers.

[deiseach]

Not a runner, IMO. What are they gonna do? Throw out the top 2 clubs in Europe of the last 8 years and then go arrange a championship without them? Would be like Spanish, Italian and English telling the Krauts they couldn't play European soccer.

That's exactly what they are planning to do. Do you really think the likes of Leicester and Toulouse live in awe of Munster and Leinster? They have their legends too, formed in a time when the provinces used play three times in a year against each other in front of a man and a dog. Think of it this way. The English and French clubs - and it's important we remember it's the clubs here, most of them owned by businessmen who see all taxation as theft - are jealous of the way the Irish provinces have gotten fat on the profits of the Heineken Cup without having to put in the bruising effort that each of their clubs has to do to qualify. And jealousy is a very powerful force. Even if it could be proven to them that they'd be worse off under a new regime, I think they'd still be inclined to proceed as long as The Other were much worse off.

[muppet]

http://www.eddieosullivan.com/heineken-keg-nearly-empty/

Eddie has his own blog now. It is quite informative actually.....

Is the Heineken keg nearly empty?

The first signs of real trouble appeared almost a year ago to the day, when Premiership Rugby announced they had signed a deal with BT Sport for €178 million (£152m). A deal between BT Sport and Premiership Rugby is in itself not an extraordinary development. But it includes the transmission rights of cross-border matches from 2014. Cross-border matches are what the Heineken Cup is all about.

This dispute, like any other dispute in sport, is about money. The English in particular and French have never been very happy about how the Heineken monies have been doled out. The English and French supply six teams to the tournament and each receive 24% of the pot. The Celtic nations and Italy receive the remaining 52% of the money, which is doled out between the four Unions.

That's a pretty good deal seeing as the Pro 12 Nations are only guaranteed ten teams into the tournament (Ireland 3, Wales 3, Scotland 2 and Italy 2). The remaining two spots go to the tournament winners and the Amlin Challenge winners.

So in essence the Anglo/French block gets 48% to share between twelve teams and the Pro 12 block get 52% to share between them. If an English or French team win the Heineken or Amlin it means more teams to share in an already smaller pot.

If you look at the Anglo-French proposals for a revamped European Cup, it would include just twenty teams. England and France continue to supply six teams with the Pro 12 supplying a further six, through qualification as in the Aviva and Top 14, and the remaining two spots taken by the previous year's winner and runner-up.

The financial remuneration would be a very simple three-way split between the Premiership Rugby, Top 14 and the Pro 12. So that would increase the take for England and France from 24% to over 33%. Quite a sizable increase in revenues.

The Argument the Anglo/French make is they believe they bring more value to the tournament. That sounds pretty arrogant but without them it would just be another Pro 12 Tournament. Hardly something that would set the pulse racing.

Also, without a Heineken the Aviva Premiership would probably increase the league from twelve to fourteen teams. The French already have fourteen teams and have to start their championship in August. They are already five games into their league, which included mid-week games last week, yes three rugby games in eight days.

With no Heineken the free weekends would be welcomed in both England and France. England could expand their Aviva Premiership and release their players to play an extra Autumn International each year. That would be worth a substantial chunk of change to the premiership clubs. The French would not have to start their season in August and would avoid mid-week games.

There is even the talk of a World Club Championship with the winners of each national tournament, including the Super Rugby champions playing off over a couple of weeks.

What also rankles with the English and French is their teams have to qualify by finishing in one of the top six spots in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14, leagues that have relegation. While the Pro 12 teams are guaranteed participation from a league with no relegation. Scotland and Italy get both teams in, while Ireland and Wales get three from four teams with a possibility of more teams based on the outcome of the Heineken and Amlin.

The argument about relegation is relevant. The English and French argue because their leagues have relegation they are extremely competitive throughout. To compete in their domestic leagues and Heineken requires bigger squads, which costs more money.

So it's a proper mess to say the least.

But is it a real mess or are the English and French just sabre rattling?

Well this could be the real deal. Remember back in 1998/'99 England withdrew from the European Cup as it was back then. The tournament was in its fourth year and Bath had won the tournament the previous year. At that stage the European Cup was tethering on the brink of implosion. Had the French joined the English back then it would have surely been the end of the European Cup.

At that time it was the Irish international and Lion, Tom Kiernan, who convinced the French to say on board. Tom was the visionary and the driving force behind the beginning of the European Cup. Without him the tournament may never have happened or survived.

Thankfully, without the French joining them, the English came back to the table the following year, Northampton won the cup and the rest is history. But it does prove the English will act if push comes to shove. As for the French it is harder to say.

It is also worth remembering that, apart form Toulouse, it took a long time for the remainder of the French clubs to embrace the Heineken Cup. We have all seen French club teams travel away from home with the 2nd XV. Especially when they are no longer going to qualify for the quarter-finals or are having a bad run in the Top 14. Although that has changed for the better in recent years with teams like Biarritz, Clermont, Stade Francais and Toulon really going after the tournament.

Money is not a huge problem for the French. With some teams running on budgets in excess of €30m the Top 14 is the richest rugby club competition in the World. But the financials are different for the English. Budgets are much tighter and the salary cap of £4.5m means limited squads and a talent drain to the Top 14. Also, their international players are not centrally contracted by the Union as they are in the Pro 12 nations. That puts a huge financial burden in the English clubs.

The announcement this week, that there will be a new Anglo/French European competition from next year, is definitely an aggressive move. The fact the announcement was made by Premiership Rugby is even more telling. In terms of calling the shots, at the moment the English are probably driving the bus, but the French are definitely on board.

As part of their statement, Premiership Rugby has quoted the French clubs as asking "Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries."

This is enticing the Celtic nations to blink and break ranks. A divide and conquer tactic if you will.

But despite the English being the most vocal at the moment, ultimately the French will decide how this plays out. If the French are really committed to restructuring the Heineken Cup and entering a new European competition if they don't get their way, it could spell the end of the Heineken Cup as we know it.

This one is set to run and while the Pro 12 refuses to budge as a block, the BT Sport money Premiership rugby is waving may cause a break for the border!

[trileacman]

Suprise, Suprise, the Welsh turkeys vote for Christmas.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/european/2013/1022/482090-welsh-lend-full-support-to-rugby-champions-cup/

I've said it before but the Welsh are gobshites.

[Hound]

Suprise, Suprise, the Welsh turkeys vote for Christmas.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/european/2013/1022/482090-welsh-lend-full-support-to-rugby-champions-cup/

I've said it before but the Welsh are gobshites.

Looks like its a done deal at this stage.
Maybe there'll be one last blast from the Irish/Scots/ERC at today's meeting, but I doubt it. I'd say the (mostly Irish I think) staff at the ERC will be simply put on notice that their time is up and the organisation will wither at the end of this season.

Outstanding questions seem to be:
Will the 6 qualifiers from Rabo be the top 6 or will each union have a guaranteed entrant?
Will an Irish team winning the Heino or Amlin mean an extra Irish team qualifies or the next best Rabo team?
Will Sky get an opportunity to bid to televise part of the new tournament?

[deiseach]

This is depressing, and I don't really care that much for the Heineken Cup.The Welsh regions would rather live on their knees being fed scraps from the table of their betters across the Severn than die on their feet. Fecking Lundys the lot of them.

[Hardy]

What sanction do the unions hold, should the clubs in the various countries go ahead and set up an unapproved competition? If the clubs and their players were suspended from their unions, would this have any practical effect? I presume it would mean the players couldn't play in internationals. Would it mean anything else? Would the death of international rugby reduce the audience for rugby sufficiently for this threat to be a deterrent to proceeding with the rogue league?

[Crete Boom]

What sanction do the unions hold, should the clubs in the various countries go ahead and set up an unapproved competition? If the clubs and their players were suspended from their unions, would this have any practical effect? I presume it would mean the players couldn't play in internationals. Would it mean anything else? Would the death of international rugby reduce the audience for rugby sufficiently for this threat to be a deterrent to proceeding with the rogue league?

The Welsh and English Unions don't have any sanctions really as the clubs/regions are privately owned/run with the players contracted to and payed by the clubs as opposed to Ireland/Italy where the players have either central contracts to the national team or provincial contracts which are payed by the unions. I am not sure but I think the Scottish have the same setup or very similar as us and the Italians.
 
  The French situation is the most interesting. While the clubs are privately owned and the players directly contracted to them they have to by law have any new competition they enter sanctioned by their sports minister and agreement by the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) otherwise the sanctions being that the games in a rogue competition cannot be shown on any TV station ( free to air or pay per view) in France eg. Canal Plus etc... and the clubs cannot use any ground owned by municipal councils ( I think Stade Francias are the only club to own their ground with the rest i.e Toulon , Racing , Clermont , Toulouse etc.. using ground provide by the city municipal council) which would make the participation worthless in exposure and financial terms.