The Heineken Cup Thread

[AZOffaly]

Jeez, if that goes ahead it will be a serious, serious blow to rugby in Ireland. A HEC without the English and French will be a joke, and the fans will stop going. To be honest I think pro rugby in Ireland faces a testing time right now. Munster need to step up to the mark again, and the Irish team needs to move on from the 'Golden Generation'. Leinster will keep ticking over, and Ulster are certainly a force again, but you probably need the Munster hoo-haa to grab attention as well.

I've got my season ticket for Thomond Park again, year #10 I think or maybe 11 even, but I'll be interested to see how many times TP sells out.

[Geoff Tipps]

Apparently they will invite teams from other countries to join but it's the end of the Heineken Cup as we know it.

[AZOffaly]

Where did you see this?

If they invite other teams to join, I'm sure Leinster and Munster and Ulster will be invited, but I bet they make it a lot harder to qualify for it. their big rí-ra was because Munster and co could rest players for Rabo games, because Ireland was always going to have at least 3 teams in the HEC. English teams had to field full teams for Aviva games because only the top 6 or whatever made it in.

[Walter Cronc]

Jeez, if that goes ahead it will be a serious, serious blow to rugby in Ireland. A HEC without the English and French will be a joke, and the fans will stop going. To be honest I think pro rugby in Ireland faces a testing time right now. Munster need to step up to the mark again, and the Irish team needs to move on from the 'Golden Generation'. Leinster will keep ticking over, and Ulster are certainly a force again, but you probably need the Munster hoo-haa to grab attention as well.

I've got my season ticket for Thomond Park again, year #10 I think or maybe 11 even, but I'll be interested to see how many times TP sells out.

Not on the wind but do fellas from rural Leinster tend to support Munster more than Leinster??

[AZOffaly]

Used to Walter, but not any more. My home town is full of Leinster fans now, and that's good to see. There's also a smattering of Connacht and Munster fans, but in general, even with the Leinster lads, it's more casual fandom.

*PS before the usuals jump in, I'm living in Tipp and living in Limerick before that since 1995, a stint in Arizona apart. I'm not actually living up in Offaly. One good thing about Leinster's recent dominance is I can't be slagged as much for supporting Munster

[deiseach]

The killing part of this is that the Heineken Cup was a very enlightened system. Do the RFU and FFR want rugby to thrive in the other Six Nations countries? Because unless they have some source of revenue from outside, the Pro12 countries are going to find it increasingly difficult to compete. It's very shortsighted, although the manner in which the IRFU et al have been sticking their head in the sand over this (WRU response: "There has to be a European Cup next season. It's too good to lose"; some negotiating poistion) does them no credit.

[muppet]

The killing part of this is that the Heineken Cup was a very enlightened system. Do the RFU and FFR want rugby to thrive in the other Six Nations countries? Because unless they have some source of revenue from outside, the Pro12 countries are going to find it increasingly difficult to compete. It's very shortsighted, although the manner in which the IRFU et al have been sticking their head in the sand over this (WRU response: "There has to be a European Cup next season. It's too good to lose"; some negotiating poistion) does them no credit.

The English and French want to have their cake (strong domestic league) and eat it (lucrative European Competition). And they want it for more of their teams at the expense of probably at least one each from Scotland, Italy, Wales and Ireland (who don't have the strong domestic leagues to fall back on). They have no interest in the other countries.

They will invite Leinster and probably one of Munster and Ulster along with maybe two Welsh clubs and call it a European Cup.

If the Welsh and Irish teams say no, a standoff could arise where there is no proper tournament for a couple of years. The English and French would be best placed to survive, given their strong local leagues.

If the Irish and Welsh teams say yes, they would be killing the game in Italy and Scotland and splitting the game in their own countries.

If the English and French had any interests other than their own they would be proposing a European Super League to replace the domestic and PRO12 Leagues.

[Hound]

Well we could have a Celtic-Italian Cup and an Anglo-French Cup -would either/both claim the title European Cup???

A Celtic-Italian Cup would be fairly underwhelming. But my money would be on the Welsh capitulating and joining up with the English and French, and then Ireland would follow suit, and then the Scots/Italians would have no choice.

[Walter Cronc]

With the ERC having the final decision is this not a case of the French/English playing hard ball in order to get higher representation??

The likely outcome will be 8 sides from each the Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 12 qualifying for the Heineken and the rest playing in the Amlin.

On another note that Stephen Jones (Times journalist) is an awful arrogant git. More or less blaming the Irish for the whole debacle.

He can rest easy, with the new overseas player ruling taking place I think it could be a while before we see an Irish side lift the European Cup!!

[thewobbler]

This is a bit of a conundrum. While it's easy to suggest that England are France are being shortsighted with regards to the development of rugby worldwide, or even european-wide, it also has to be unequivocally accepted that they are the financial powerhouses which drive the success of any European competition. So they should have more clout. That's life.

For my tuppence, I think the HC is a bit bloated with teams who can't win it - plus 6 pools delivering 8 quarter-finalists is an awful way to run any tournament. The argument that it has to be a European wide competition which brings in Italians and Scots is tempered in my mind by quality control; it's a premier tournament, so it should be played as one.

If money wasn't the overriding factor, it should be a straight-up 16 team tournament, 4 x pools of 4, with the first 5 sides in Pro 12, England and France making the HC cut every year, and the last place being decided arbitrarily by something along the lines of: HC winner (if not already qualified through league), else AC winner (if not already qualified), else one extra place for the HC winner's league. The AC would be run on similar lines, with the next 5 teams from each league, plus one arbitrary slot to reward previous season's performance.

The nice side-effect of this is that the Pro 12 would gain even more significance, and would become a genuinely competitive league for all fixtures.

[Hound]

With the ERC having the final decision is this not a case of the French/English playing hard ball in order to get higher representation??

The English Premiership say ERC approval is not required in respect of their proposed new competition.

[deiseach]

I can't believe the IRFU have let this come to pass. I wouldn't count myself an expert in rugby politics, but even I could see that the English and French clubs were determined to get a bigger slice of the ERC pie and resented bankrolling the success of Munster and Leinster. While Premiership/Top 14 clubs were knocking lumps out of each other in their respective domestic competitions, the provinces were able to mix and match teams in the Pro12, safe in the knowledge that they'd be in the Heineken Cup the following season. I think the IRFU really thought that the old farts in Twickenham would ride to their rescue. Come on chaps, let's not be so beastly about money. We've got loads already, let the Micks have a few extra quid for the sake of the reception they gave us at Lansdowne Road in '73. Well, those boys aren't driving English rugby forward any more. The sooner the IRFU take their heads out of the sand and hammer out a compromise, the better. It'll hurt, but not as much as if they don't compromise.

[johnneycool]

With the ERC having the final decision is this not a case of the French/English playing hard ball in order to get higher representation??

The English Premiership say ERC approval is not required in respect of their proposed new competition.

Whilst this is the brainchild of both the top English and French premiership clubs it looks like they'll need the approval of the respective rugby unions for it to come into fruition.
The IRFU has the most to lose out of this and their bargaining position has been eroded with this announcement ahead of the ERC meeting in a few weeks time.
Welsh clubs like their English and Welsh counterparts operate as separate entities, so they can individually be invited and the revenue split decided by the elite clubs.
The Irish provinces could be cut adrift and even if they do get invited to the party they're going to lose out financially in a big way.

[Hound]

Quentin Smith, Chairman of Premiership Rugby, reiterates this morning that the HC is dead and next year it'll be the new Anglo/French version, and that he's hopeful/confident other teams will join up. He says that if the unions don't sanction the new tournament, then there'll be no European tournament.

His final line shows what they think of the ERC:

What ERC should be doing is to concentrate on running the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups this season as successfully as they can and then a mechanism for running itself down because there will no longer be a need for it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/10303551/The-European-phoney-war-is-over.-RFU-must-accept-that-lead-taken-by-top-English-and-French-clubs-is-real.html

[Walter Cronc]

Quentin Smith, Chairman of Premiership Rugby, reiterates this morning that the HC is dead and next year it'll be the new Anglo/French version, and that he's hopeful/confident other teams will join up. He says that if the unions don't sanction the new tournament, then there'll be no European tournament.

His final line shows what they think of the ERC:

What ERC should be doing is to concentrate on running the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups this season as successfully as they can and then a mechanism for running itself down because there will no longer be a need for it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/10303551/The-European-phoney-war-is-over.-RFU-must-accept-that-lead-taken-by-top-English-and-French-clubs-is-real.html

Money talks. I assume of the 4 Irish sides Connacht are most at risk. Surely the new tournament will want to attract Munster/Leinster/Ulster as they probably have the biggest travelling support in Europe!!