The Heineken Cup Thread

[Myles Na G.]

You support Munster in the same way Irish folk support Man Utd or Liverpool, because they are, of they were successful. And those 'dark days' of heineken cup semi's and finals!

Why do you support them, if Munster weren't constantly on RTE with their great romantic journey and heart breaking defeats with George Hook constantly saying they were going to lose and instead they were getting knocked out in the group stages not a hope in hell you would have supported them. People liked the romance and then the success, some people might even call it bandwagoning...

Sure what would be the point in explaining ...you both already know why I have chosen to support Munster. Some people might consider it arrogant presumption.

Sure give it a try, enlighten us. To be honest I am fascinated by the support for professional rugby is this country when there was no history of it up until 15 years ago. Munster were the romantic story so people with no allegiance to the game started to follow them.

Even though I am from Leinster and am involved with Leinster Rugby, their fortunes have no emotional affect on me whereas the Kildare GAA rollercoaster of the last 5 years has left me an emotional wreck.

How could there be a history of professional rugby when the game was amateur until about 15 years ago?

[Myles Na G.]

Ulster Rugby have made great strides to make it a sport for all, gone are the days when it was posh prods at play, now it also includes posh taigs...Joking aside Ulster Rugby has tried to be inclusive and with the GAA is attempting to cross community barriers. True you see the few loyalists at games sporting the NI Soccer Flag as a man from Monaghan described it but most are there to support the team. I do not have the same emotional attachment to any of the Rubgy teams I would have to my club and county but when they play teams from outside Ireland you would naturally want them to win.                                                             

I know plenty of people who carry the NI flag to Ulster matches who wouldn't fit the term 'loyalist'.

[Tony Baloney]

Ulster Rugby have made great strides to make it a sport for all, gone are the days when it was posh prods at play, now it also includes posh taigs...Joking aside Ulster Rugby has tried to be inclusive and with the GAA is attempting to cross community barriers. True you see the few loyalists at games sporting the NI Soccer Flag as a man from Monaghan described it but most are there to support the team. I do not have the same emotional attachment to any of the Rubgy teams I would have to my club and county but when they play teams from outside Ireland you would naturally want them to win.                                                             

I find it interesting that unionists are normally thought of as posh yet loyalists are perceived as working class.

Where does this myth originate?

Probably the wrong thread entirely for this.

The working class loyalist was most visible by doing the dirty work of the boys in the big houses.

[Myles Na G.]

Ulster Rugby have made great strides to make it a sport for all, gone are the days when it was posh prods at play, now it also includes posh taigs...Joking aside Ulster Rugby has tried to be inclusive and with the GAA is attempting to cross community barriers. True you see the few loyalists at games sporting the NI Soccer Flag as a man from Monaghan described it but most are there to support the team. I do not have the same emotional attachment to any of the Rubgy teams I would have to my club and county but when they play teams from outside Ireland you would naturally want them to win.                                                             

I find it interesting that unionists are normally thought of as posh yet loyalists are perceived as working class.

Where does this myth originate?

Probably the wrong thread entirely for this.

The working class loyalist was most visible by doing the dirty work of the boys in the big houses.

Who's dirty work were Irish republicans doing then?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Ulster Rugby have made great strides to make it a sport for all, gone are the days when it was posh prods at play, now it also includes posh taigs...Joking aside Ulster Rugby has tried to be inclusive and with the GAA is attempting to cross community barriers. True you see the few loyalists at games sporting the NI Soccer Flag as a man from Monaghan described it but most are there to support the team. I do not have the same emotional attachment to any of the Rubgy teams I would have to my club and county but when they play teams from outside Ireland you would naturally want them to win.                                                             

I find it interesting that unionists are normally thought of as posh yet loyalists are perceived as working class.

Where does this myth originate?

Probably the wrong thread entirely for this.

The working class loyalist was most visible by doing the dirty work of the boys in the big houses.

Who's dirty work were Irish republicans Provos/Dissidents/Officials doing then?

I'm an Irish republican, please do not think those feckers represent Irish republicanism.

[Applesisapples]

Ulster Rugby have made great strides to make it a sport for all, gone are the days when it was posh prods at play, now it also includes posh taigs...Joking aside Ulster Rugby has tried to be inclusive and with the GAA is attempting to cross community barriers. True you see the few loyalists at games sporting the NI Soccer Flag as a man from Monaghan described it but most are there to support the team. I do not have the same emotional attachment to any of the Rubgy teams I would have to my club and county but when they play teams from outside Ireland you would naturally want them to win.                                                             

I know plenty of people who carry the NI flag to Ulster matches who wouldn't fit the term 'loyalist'.

Are they not loyal? It is a fact that that particular flag represents to Nationalists all the hurt and discrimination that this new dispensation has meant to have consigned to the past. Anyone carrying it cannot be unaware the message it delivers to nationalists, they might as well piss around Ulster Rugby to mark out their territory.

[Declan]

Back to Rugby - Will Leinster complete an historic double at the weekend?

[Hound]

Back to Rugby - Will Leinster complete an historic double at the weekend?

Ospreys were surprisingly impressive against Munster in the semis. Leinster making all the right sounds re taking it seriously this year, but won't be easy.

In one way I'd love to see Madigan get the start, seeing as he's the 10 who's played the biggest part in Leinster reaching this final, but you can't really leave Sexton out. I would like to see Cronin, Toner and Kearney Jnr all get starts.

[trileacman]

Discuss your politics somewhere else, this is a rugby thread.

Don't think Toner will make it tbh, his centre of gravity is too high which makes him ineffective at rucking, scrummaging and carrying. A good line-out operator he might be but I don't think it overrides his deficiencies in the engine room of the team.

Madigan seems a nice player, potential there. What you make of Kearney junior? What's his long term position? Unsure of Cronin too, is he capable enough at the line-out to be world class? I doubt it. What does Strauss have that Cronin doesn't?

[Hound]

Discuss your politics somewhere else, this is a rugby thread.

Don't think Toner will make it tbh, his centre of gravity is too high which makes him ineffective at rucking, scrummaging and carrying. A good line-out operator he might be but I don't think it overrides his deficiencies in the engine room of the team.

Madigan seems a nice player, potential there. What you make of Kearney junior? What's his long term position? Unsure of Cronin too, is he capable enough at the line-out to be world class? I doubt it. What does Strauss have that Cronin doesn't?

Toner improved by a large amount this year. In the group stages of the Heineken Cup he was very good. His ball carrying in particular has come on leaps and bounds. No question for example, as he gained more yards per carry than either of O'Callaghan or O'Connell this season. There's still improvements to be made, but I certainly wouldnt write him off.

Strauss wasn't as good this year as last year. I don't think there's a whole heap between himself and Cronin. I thought Strauss had a super final though, robbed a lot of dirty ball, which is one of his strengths.

Kearney can play full back, but I prefer him at wing. Didnt fancy him last year, but for me has been the most improved player over the last 12 months. Surprised Kidney picked Zebo ahead of him, given that it was Kearney who was called up as cover for the 6N rather than Zebo, and in Munster's two big games recently (v Ulster and Ospreys), Zebo was awful.

[Dinny Breen]

Toner is still filling out his body, his height is advantage come scrum and obviously line-out time. Like Hound I agree that his ball carrying has improved but Trileacman has pointed his biggest deficiency, his rucking and it's just not good enough but he is a better option than DOC. He will come good.

Interesting story about Cronin - he's not much of a drinker and after the England this year he was on the mic on the bus, making an eejit of himself, Mick Kearney (Team Manager) tried to take the mic off him and words ensued. After things had calmed down Kidney came down to Cronin for a quiet word and remind him off his responsibilities finishing up with "Going forward Sean if you want to be a part of the Irish Set up you will have to look at your behaviour today and apologise for it". Cronin's response was "After that display today Deccie it's not me that has to worry about been part of the Irish set-up going forward"

[Denn Forever]

Not Leinster but Leamy is the 3rd Munster player to retire due to injury this year.  Is this just a blip or is there something wrong with Munster training?

[thewobbler]

I think what you're seeing at Munster is the inevitable side effect of professionalism. The guys who are retiring were all in the firing line throughout Munster's most gruelling, most intensive glory days.

While it might have been normal for forwards to carry on into their thirties a generation or two ago, each week in the modern game they're coming up against 15 players of 15st+ of genuine power, for 80 minutes. The only way to do that is to put your body through unnatural preparation in terms of strength and fitness work.

I've a horrible feeling that Leinster will endure a similar spate of early retirements in a few year's time, and that top-level rugby will become a game of no place for old men.

[AZOffaly]

Well, they're all older guys as well, and have a lot of Rugby played. The Irish pack was essentially the Munster Pack for a few years there, so the likes of Hayes, Horan, o'Callaghan, O'Connell, Leamy, Quinlan Wallace etc etc etc have all got a lot of miles on the clock in a very physical sport.

If this year was 'rebuilding', next year is rebulding, refurnishing and a nice paint job. I saw the following list of players that were in the squad this year, but are gone either through retirement or leaving the club for 2012/2013. A huge turnover.

Chambers, Cusack, Flannery, Fogarty, Hayes, Hurley, Leamy, Mafi, O'Driscoll, O'Leary, Wallace.

[Hound]

The age profile (front to back) of the Leinster team that started on Saturday is:

24 - 26 - 32
  34 - 37
27 - 28 - 25
  31 - 26
  32 - 33
29 - 26 - 25

Avg: 29

I don't think I'd be particularly concerned as there's some decent talent coming through, key players like Sexton, Kearney, O'Brien, Healy have a good 5+ years left in them, but a bit of bad luck with injuries could potentially see a glut of first team retirements in a small space of time.