Shell to Sea

[give her dixie]

Feckers held me up with the dual carriageway being blocked so they could transport this gear. I spotted 7 squad cars in and around the junction that they held all up at. I expect Shell are footing the overtime bill.

There was some convoy allright Seanie here is a Video someone took of it going through Crossmolina .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHLPSwP7RRM&feature=player_detailpage

How could anyone think that the roads around Bellanaboy would be able to bear such heavy loads. One of them yokes was bad enough but a convoy of them was always going to end in disaster.

That would seem to be typical of the thought and consideration given to this entire affair by the powers that be from what I can see. Something eerie or not right about this.

It's unreal what Shell are getting away with, and how little they will pay in revenue.

But hey, we got Sean Quinn to blame for the countries woes while all the while over 400 Billion in Oil and Gas reserves go to Shell.......

[magpie seanie]

I just can't get over the protection the State affords them. I've never seen such Garda presence ever and certainly not in Sligo.

You have a point alright but the Quinn's do have to shoulder their portion of the blame. The fact that others don't and won't is not right, granted.

[muppet]

No matter which side of the argument you are on, it is hard not to conclude that we are incapable of running anything properly. There is no such thing as process or procedure.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1015/480557-corrib-gas-epa/

Revised licence for operation of Shell gas terminal at Ballinaboy quashed by Commercial Court.

[Billys Boots]

No matter which side of the argument you are on, it is hard not to conclude that we are incapable of running anything properly. There is no such thing as process or procedure.

Got that in one Elmo!  We're a joke. 

[magpie seanie]

It just confirms that basically Shell have been given whatever they want by the State with no regard for what is right or wrong. The incompetence of a State body has been caught out here. Who will lose their job for this? What has the Minister to say?

[muppet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115?page=3

I posted this on another thread before but it is well worth reading.

Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Providence and Shell all seen from a German perspective.

[magpie seanie]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115?page=3

I posted this on another thread before but it is well worth reading.

Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Providence and Shell all seen from a German perspective.

That article proves what idiots we are as a nation. How willing we are to accept lies (look at all Europe did for us....soft landing.....). We'd swallow anything so long as everyone else is swallowing it too.

[Hound]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115?page=3

I posted this on another thread before but it is well worth reading.

Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Providence and Shell all seen from a German perspective.

A lot of mistruths in there along with the facts, but typical Irish alright to lap that nonsense up!

The article mentions the guarantee as the "most disastrous decision that was ever made by an Irish government" I certainly can't argue with that. But for some reason it doesnt mention that the two men who made the decision were Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan.  Loads of politicians made errors, but those two have ensured the Irish taxpayer will bear the burden for generations.

Ray Burke is a crook as has been proven in the courts. But what he did re tax rates for oil companies was nothing but common sense, and has been continued by Ministers for Finance on all sides since then. The article says "Oil companies could scarcely find better terms than in Ireland", but doesnt ask why then so few of them are in Ireland??!!. It mentions the good oul 70% tax rate in Norway - but again (funnily enough) doesnt mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are not successful in their operations. Gas how some people swallow whatever a paper prints as gospel!

The article says "Irish rules allow companies to write off all costs for test drillings " as if this is some kind of special treatment. Norway, UK, etc, etc all do the very same!

I am looking forward to reading Eddie Hobbs "Own our oil" paper he is preparing. Personally I think successive FF/FG/Lab govt plans of trying to encourage oil companies to come here and drill for oil and gas, with the exchequer incurring no risk, no upfront cost and taking 25% to 40% of any profits is a decent plan. Then when infrastructure is built around successful operations, lots of jobs will come, we could turn Killybegs into Aberdeen or Stavanger (as I've said before). When the oil companies are coming here in their droves, then we can look at increasing taxes. But so far it clearly hasnt worked. Feck all oil and gas has come out of our shores. So I'm interested to see if Hobbs comes out something better or just the hyperbole nonsense around giving our resources away for free.

I do agree with the fisherman at the end. Our fishermen were completely rode by the terms of which we entered into the EU, while our farmers were paid to be unproductive! Probably down to our farmers having huge policital pull and our fishermen having none.

[muppet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115?page=3

I posted this on another thread before but it is well worth reading.

Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Providence and Shell all seen from a German perspective.

A lot of mistruths in there along with the facts, but typical Irish alright to lap that nonsense up!

The article mentions the guarantee as the "most disastrous decision that was ever made by an Irish government" I certainly can't argue with that. But for some reason it doesnt mention that the two men who made the decision were Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan.  Loads of politicians made errors, but those two have ensured the Irish taxpayer will bear the burden for generations.

Ray Burke is a crook as has been proven in the courts. But what he did re tax rates for oil companies was nothing but common sense, and has been continued by Ministers for Finance on all sides since then. The article says "Oil companies could scarcely find better terms than in Ireland", but doesnt ask why then so few of them are in Ireland??!!. It mentions the good oul 70% tax rate in Norway - but again (funnily enough) doesnt mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are successful in their operations. Gas how some people swallow whatever a paper prints as gospel!

The article says "Irish rules allow companies to write off all costs for test drillings " as if this is some kind of special treatment. Norway, UK, etc, etc all do the very same!

I am looking forward to reading Eddie Hobbs "Own our oil" paper he is preparing. Personally I think successive FF/FG/Lab govt plans of trying to encourage oil companies to come here and drill for oil and gas, with the exchequer incurring no risk, no upfront cost and taking 25% to 40% of any profits is a decent plan. Then when infrastructure is built around successful operations, lots of jobs will come, we could turn Killybegs into Aberdeen or Stavanger (as I've said before). When the oil companies are coming here in their droves, then we can look at increasing taxes. But so far it clearly hasnt worked. Feck all oil and gas has come out of our shores. So I'm interested to see if Hobbs comes out something better or just the hyperbole nonsense around giving our resources away for free.

I do agree with the fisherman at the end. Our fishermen were completely rode by the terms of which we entered into the EU, while our farmers were paid to be unproductive! Probably down to our farmers having huge policital pull and our fishermen having none.

"It mentions the good oul 70% tax rate in Norway - but again (funnily enough) doesn't mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are successful in their operations."

I would happily refund 70% of the costs IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL. No problem with that at all, as long as we have the 70% tax rate and not the outrageous plundering that we have currently.

[Never beat the deeler]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115?page=3

I posted this on another thread before but it is well worth reading.

Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Providence and Shell all seen from a German perspective.

A lot of mistruths in there along with the facts, but typical Irish alright to lap that nonsense up!

The article mentions the guarantee as the "most disastrous decision that was ever made by an Irish government" I certainly can't argue with that. But for some reason it doesnt mention that the two men who made the decision were Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan.  Loads of politicians made errors, but those two have ensured the Irish taxpayer will bear the burden for generations.

Ray Burke is a crook as has been proven in the courts. But what he did re tax rates for oil companies was nothing but common sense, and has been continued by Ministers for Finance on all sides since then. The article says "Oil companies could scarcely find better terms than in Ireland", but doesnt ask why then so few of them are in Ireland??!!. It mentions the good oul 70% tax rate in Norway - but again (funnily enough) doesnt mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are successful in their operations. Gas how some people swallow whatever a paper prints as gospel!

The article says "Irish rules allow companies to write off all costs for test drillings " as if this is some kind of special treatment. Norway, UK, etc, etc all do the very same!

I am looking forward to reading Eddie Hobbs "Own our oil" paper he is preparing. Personally I think successive FF/FG/Lab govt plans of trying to encourage oil companies to come here and drill for oil and gas, with the exchequer incurring no risk, no upfront cost and taking 25% to 40% of any profits is a decent plan. Then when infrastructure is built around successful operations, lots of jobs will come, we could turn Killybegs into Aberdeen or Stavanger (as I've said before). When the oil companies are coming here in their droves, then we can look at increasing taxes. But so far it clearly hasnt worked. Feck all oil and gas has come out of our shores. So I'm interested to see if Hobbs comes out something better or just the hyperbole nonsense around giving our resources away for free.

I do agree with the fisherman at the end. Our fishermen were completely rode by the terms of which we entered into the EU, while our farmers were paid to be unproductive! Probably down to our farmers having huge policital pull and our fishermen having none.

"It mentions the good oul 70% tax rate in Norway - but again (funnily enough) doesn't mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are successful in their operations."

I would happily refund 70% of the costs IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL. No problem with that at all, as long as we have the 70% tax rate and not the outrageous plundering that we have currently.

I thought (and I'm sure Hound can set us straight) that the situation in Norway was that they refund 70% of costs incurred if you are UNsuccessful, with the underlined letters missing from Hound's post

doesnt mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are successful in their operations.

This way would mean the Irish taxpayer would be at risk of a large tax bill. Also read somewhere (sorry I can't find the link), that the chances of a commercially viable strike are 1 in 32, with each well costing in excess of EUR50m, so on average we would be paying out 31 x 50m x 0.7 or about a billion, while reaping the rewards of 70% of the profits from well 32.

[Hound]

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115?page=3

I posted this on another thread before but it is well worth reading.

Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern, Providence and Shell all seen from a German perspective.

A lot of mistruths in there along with the facts, but typical Irish alright to lap that nonsense up!

The article mentions the guarantee as the "most disastrous decision that was ever made by an Irish government" I certainly can't argue with that. But for some reason it doesnt mention that the two men who made the decision were Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan.  Loads of politicians made errors, but those two have ensured the Irish taxpayer will bear the burden for generations.

Ray Burke is a crook as has been proven in the courts. But what he did re tax rates for oil companies was nothing but common sense, and has been continued by Ministers for Finance on all sides since then. The article says "Oil companies could scarcely find better terms than in Ireland", but doesnt ask why then so few of them are in Ireland??!!. It mentions the good oul 70% tax rate in Norway - but again (funnily enough) doesnt mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are successful in their operations. Gas how some people swallow whatever a paper prints as gospel!

The article says "Irish rules allow companies to write off all costs for test drillings " as if this is some kind of special treatment. Norway, UK, etc, etc all do the very same!

I am looking forward to reading Eddie Hobbs "Own our oil" paper he is preparing. Personally I think successive FF/FG/Lab govt plans of trying to encourage oil companies to come here and drill for oil and gas, with the exchequer incurring no risk, no upfront cost and taking 25% to 40% of any profits is a decent plan. Then when infrastructure is built around successful operations, lots of jobs will come, we could turn Killybegs into Aberdeen or Stavanger (as I've said before). When the oil companies are coming here in their droves, then we can look at increasing taxes. But so far it clearly hasnt worked. Feck all oil and gas has come out of our shores. So I'm interested to see if Hobbs comes out something better or just the hyperbole nonsense around giving our resources away for free.

I do agree with the fisherman at the end. Our fishermen were completely rode by the terms of which we entered into the EU, while our farmers were paid to be unproductive! Probably down to our farmers having huge policital pull and our fishermen having none.

"It mentions the good oul 70% tax rate in Norway - but again (funnily enough) doesn't mention the fact that Norway refund 70% of the costs incurred to oil companies if they are successful in their operations."

I would happily refund 70% of the costs IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL. No problem with that at all, as long as we have the 70% tax rate and not the outrageous plundering that we have currently.

Typo of course.

Norway refunds them 70% of their money if they are NOT successful.

[muppet]

The above ideology assumes that there is a pressing need to get the fuel out of the ground, hence giving it away to speculators for nothing is seen as preferable to any other option.

[Hardy]

I'm no export on oil and gas exploration and much less on the economics of resource recovery, but the government's policy and strategy in this sector of the economy, in contrast with most other sectors, seems just about spot on to me. I simply don't understand how people can argue that we're giving away our resources and not explain why practically nobody's here availing of such generosity.

Our resources appear to be marginal at best. That's why the oil companies aren't interested even in our supposedly generous incentive regime. So policy needs to make it more, not less attractive for them to take the risk. If, after they've enjoyed a few years of generous tax write-offs, they've established that we actually do have viable resource deposits, then I'm all for taxing their profits at 70% or more if we can get it and still keep the oil flowing. But 70% of nothing is zero.

That's unless we want to undertake the cost of setting up a state-owned oil company, without any native expertise and send them out to look for the stuff. Does anyone seriously think a CIE or a FÁS of oil wouldn't make a complete bollix of it while, in the process, costing us exponential multiples of what the tax breaks for oil companies cost?

[muppet]

I'm no export on oil and gas exploration and much less on the economics of resource recovery, but the government's policy and strategy in this sector of the economy, in contrast with most other sectors, seems just about spot on to me. I simply don't understand how people can argue that we're giving away our resources and not explain why practically nobody's here availing of such generosity.

Our resources appear to be marginal at best. That's why the oil companies aren't interested even in our supposedly generous incentive regime. So policy needs to make it more, not less attractive for them to take the risk. If, after they've enjoyed a few years of generous tax write-offs, they've established that we actually do have viable resource deposits, then I'm all for taxing their profits at 70% or more if we can get it and still keep the oil flowing. But 70% of nothing is zero.

That's unless we want to undertake the cost of setting up a state-owned oil company, without any native expertise and send them out to look for the stuff. Does anyone seriously think a CIE or a FÁS of oil wouldn't make a complete bollix of it while, in the process, costing us exponential multiples of what the tax breaks for oil companies cost?

That tax has never happened despite decades of Kinsale gas and there is no sign of it coming for the Corrib gas either.

I agree our resources are marginal, at todays oil market and with today's technology.

Giving the stuff away for nothing still makes no sense, in any market. Your notion of raising taxes later would be fine if it were realistic. But it will never happen. Extraction of these fuels on the current terms does absolutely nothing for the Irish State or its taxpayers other than to deplete the resources. How is that a good idea?

And as for doing it ourselves, CIE and Fás are not the only examples of state organisations. Successive Governments allowed those particular companies to be run by trade unions. Bertie Ahern even made a trade union leader Chairman of Fás. But the reality is whenever, sometime in the future, market conditions make it realistic for us to do it, the oil companies will be chomping at the bit to get in.

Shell's profits for feb 2012 were $30.9bn, they don't need a hand from our taxpayer.

The more I think of it, this is a great euphemism for what happened our banks. We, the taxpayer, are bled to help out the beleaguered banks, or in this case the oil industry. When the banks make a profit they keep it, when they need a bailout, we pay for it. Heads they win, tails we lose.

We can get this one right for another generation. Leave it in the ground.

[Hardy]

Muppet, no time. Very briefly -

"No tax from Kinsale and Corrib" - is there cheating going on or is it that they haven't yet reached the threshold? The current tax regime is clearly NOT GENEROUS ENOUGH to incentivise significant exploration. Making a few short term bob out of Shell and Kinsale would be a false economy if it delayed or even completely blocked the prospect of proper exploration of our fields - which may prove unviable anyway. It's popular Sinn Féinery to create headlines about fat cats paying little or no tax, but it's no more than populist nonsense.

"Will it ever happen" (getting a proper tax rate)? Why shouldn't it happen? I know it's popular (and populist again) to engage in taxi-driver analysis and assume that "that crowd" would sell our birthright for a few brown envelopes. Again it's nonsense. We can easily make sure they don't get the chance, whether we're cynical enough to think they'd try or naive enough to think they wouldn't.

"Form our own oil company" - and take all the risks onto the exchequer? Not only unrealistic but lunatic.

"Shell don't need a handout" - It's not that Shell are here because they need a handout. It's that they wouldn't be here if they didn't get the handout - or reasonable tax incentives, to be less pejorative. To view it the other way is more taxi driver analysis and Sinn Féinery, with respect. It ignores economics in favour of emotion. To cut the incentive to Shell and jeopardise the future prospects of commercialising our resources, just to be able to say "at least we didn't give handouts to international corporations" would be childishly reckless.

"Banks vs. oil industry" - no equivalence. Again you talk about "helping out" the oil industry. Sorry, but let me out of the taxi. (Take the smiley and the respect as read.)

Once again, for emphasis, my two main points:

1. Our oil and gas resources may amount to nothing and not be worth extracting. Taking a multi-billion risk to find that out is unacceptable by any possible economic analysis, when we can let others take the risk at an exponentially reduced cost and cash in if and when there's actually something to tax.

2. If this is such a bonanza for the international oil and gas companies, where are they?