Has Kieran Shannon lost it?

[bloody mary]

Did anyone read the article about Armagh in the Tribune? He tried to make out Armagh were the 'most important and influential' team of the decade, like Cork hurlers. You can't make a case for either (Kerry, Tyrone in football, Kilkenny in hurling) but he tried anyway and came up with some awful rubbish, which is unlike him, to be fair. Like... Armagh only lost the 05 semi to tyrone because of a 'dubious free... for a slight tug on Stevie O'neill's jersey'. Sorry Kieran, but the fact is that Stevie got past Ciaran McKeever and he pulled him back. Free. No question, not dubious at all. Also, like most Dublin journos, they ignored stuff like the Michael Collins 2 reds in the Ulster Final of that year which handed it to Armagh, McGeeney being hauled off by Big Joe in the 05 semi at a crucial time, the Fermanagh defeat, the collapse against Kerry, and now Wexford.

Still on the Tribune, they said in the match ratings that Davy Harte's 1-1 made him the top-scoring half-back in the championship. Aidan Carr has 0-24.

And, Liam Hayes said Sean Cavanagh should have been sent off for his shoulder into Whelan and a yellow just after it. He didn't mention at all the Whelan punch. Sounds to me like the Tribune boys were on the black stuff on Saturday night. 

[orangeman]

Liam Hayes would know all about giving a slap alright !


Kieran Shannon is rapidly losing any credibility he had !

[ildanach]

at least the player rating were more realistic. Did anyone see the sunday world where Colie Moran was given a 7 / 10 (or a 7.5 - i can not remember which). What game were they watching??

[David McKeown]

Read Shannon's piece on Armagh and to be honest a lot of made sense.  He also more or less excluded Kerry from the most important and influential accolade by giving them the best team of the decade title and made a strong argument to support his claim.  I thought it was one of the better pieces I have read in recent weeks on Armagh.  As for the sendings off canavan deserved to go for putting his hands on the linesman whilst attempting to get his hands on McKeever.  The O'Neill one was a mistake although I know a few who would swear blind that it was his second yellow.

[Jinxy]

Read Eamon Sweeneys article in the Indo about the Armagh footballers and Cork hurlers if you want the exact opposite viewpoint!

[Real1995]

Still on the Tribune, they said in the match ratings that Davy Harte's 1-1 made him the top-scoring half-back in the championship. Aidan Carr has 0-24.
. 

and remind me how many did aidan carr score this year from play??

[GalwayBayBoy]

I wasn't aware that he ever had it?

[cornafean]

Shannon lost it the day he compared the Cork footballers/hurlers going on strike to Mohammed Ali refusing to fight in Vietnam.

[tyssam5]

Shannon lost it the day he compared the Cork footballers/hurlers going on strike to Mohammed Ali refusing to fight in Vietnam.

Ain't no Vietnamese ever called me 'langer'! 

[Over the Bar]

Read Shannon's piece on Armagh and to be honest a lot of made sense. 

Which parts of it made sense?  I couldn't find much in it that did.

[David McKeown]

From another thread

From the Sunday Tribune............

Orchard picked off
Kieran Shannon
A once-great Armagh won't go away, they just won't go all the way for some time

Sometimes you have to wonder if you'd have been better off not winning anything at all. Mayo reach four All Ireland finals in the space of 10 years only to be tagged choke artists. Waterford go 35 years without reaching an All Ireland semi-final, then make six in 10 years only to be ridiculed for always getting that far. And then if you're Armagh, you keep getting it thrown at you that you could only translate seven Ulsters into the one All Ireland when Tyrone managed to claim two.


Well, there's a few things Messrs McDonnell, McGrane and Clarke ought to know, such men probably do already. It wasn't the one Armagh team that won all seven Ulsters; only McGrane started in them all. Peter McDonnell was right; the expectations in recent weeks were based on what previous sides had achieved, not this one. The Armagh of 2008 never had any notions of greatness. The Armagh of 2002 to 2006 did, but then they were right to because they were great.


Who says they weren't? The O'Dwyer-Loughnane maxim about a great side winning a second All Ireland was a guideline, not a stipulation. John O'Mahony's Galway won a second. Does anyone seriously think that side was greater than Joe Kernan's? Suppose Conor Gormley hadn't managed to pull off that remarkable block at the close of the 2003 All Ireland. Suppose Stevie McDonnell scored that goal, Armagh won that second All Ireland, and then, to paraphrase Anthony Daly, fecked off back across the border, never to be seen again; would that have made them a great side? Greater than the one who failed that time, but returned the following year to win the first ever Ulster final in Croke Park with one of the most complete team displays of recent times, and then, after being shocked by Fermanagh, return the following year to win their first league, the greatest provincial championship ever won, and contribute immensely to a classic All Ireland semi-final?


If ever there was one year two sets of All Ireland winners' medals could have been handed out, that year was 2005. Armagh won the league scoring 0-19 and 1-21 in their last two games. They became the first side in over 50 years to win the Ulster championship via the preliminary round, beating four sides that had all contested an All Ireland semi-final the previous two years – Fermanagh, Donegal, Derry and Tyrone. Then they destroyed a good Laois side, bringing their number of championship wins against elite opposition to five for the summer. In Kerry, a streak like that would constitute the capture of Sam Maguire and a ticket for the following year's All Ireland quarter-final.


As for that epic semi-final, just as Tyrone did not deserve to lose, neither did Armagh, and the theatre and brilliance of Peter Canavan's last-minute free should not obscure the fact a game of such magnitude should never have been decided upon such a dubious free as Paddy Russell awarded against Ciaran McKeever for a slight tug of Stephen O'Neill's jersey (the body shudders at the thought of Paul Galvin remonstrating over that one). Paddy can be forgiven for playing God that day, but Armagh should be granted absolution too. They were a great team, regardless of their All Ireland count. Just like the Cork hurlers, they weren't the best side the decade spawned but they were its most influential and important.


We say all this because that team, and most of its leaders, are now gone. After Wexford's brilliant display, Oisín called it a day, joining McGeeney and Marsden from last year. In the coming months, at least three of the quintet of McGrane, McNulty, McKeever, Francie and O'Rourke will call it quits too. Even Stevie might finish up. He's still only 30 and playing as well as ever, but he has a third kid and has often said the only reason he's kept playing on was to win that second All Ireland; even he must know, he isn't going to get it now. Should all the aforementioned retire, then you're looking at Ronan Clarke being the only starter from the side of 2002.


There is still the making of a good team there but it's hard not to think the county is into the kind of after-the-gold-rush era Galway experienced after 2002 – a provincial title and All Ireland quarter-final every couple of years is still within their grasp but hardly Sam Maguire.


The same could be said of the whole of Ulster. The province had been the standard-bearers for most of the decade but the power shifted when Paul Galvin thundered into Kieran McGeeney with that late, calculated, hit and Kieran Donaghy scored that goal in that 2006 quarter-final. Football itself changed that day. Kerry had absorbed all that was good about the Ulster and Armagh game – the defensive intensity along with the big-man option; there would never have been a Donaghy if there hadn't been a Clarke – without sacrificing their traditional flair. They still wanted half-forwards who could score as well as defend; Armagh, evidently, don't.


Cooper and Donaghy are the equal of McDonnell and Clarke yet Kerry don't depend on them for the majority of scores. Armagh need to find a third punch, the kind Oisín used to offer and Brian Mallon could, instead of leaving this ridiculous 50-yard gap between their two men up and everyone else. The reality is Armagh have not moved on from 2006, and they and Tyrone have been winning the last few Ulsters by default; Monaghan and Fermanagh lacked the smarts and punch to finish them off, just as those sides had too much honesty to be killed off by Derry, the province's serial, criminal, underachievers.


It still took a good team to see off those teams though. Armagh won't go away. They just won't go all the way for some time either, that's all.

Would agree that a lot of whats in bold makes sense

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Did anyone read the article about Armagh in the Tribune? He tried to make out Armagh were the 'most important and influential' team of the decade, like Cork hurlers. You can't make a case for either (Kerry, Tyrone in football, Kilkenny in hurling) but he tried anyway and came up with some awful rubbish, which is unlike him, to be fair. Like... Armagh only lost the 05 semi to tyrone because of a 'dubious free... for a slight tug on Stevie O'neill's jersey'. Sorry Kieran, but the fact is that Stevie got past Ciaran McKeever and he pulled him back. Free. No question, not dubious at all. Also, like most Dublin journos, they ignored stuff like the Michael Collins 2 reds in the Ulster Final of that year which handed it to Armagh, McGeeney being hauled off by Big Joe in the 05 semi at a crucial time, the Fermanagh defeat, the collapse against Kerry, and now Wexford.

Actually it was a reasonably decent piece of journalistic analysis where he backs up his opinions with evidence. You may not agree with what he says but judging by the rant above, there's only one of the pair of you who could be said to have "lost it". Indeed if you'd read the article at all, you'd see Shannon makes a clear distinction between the Armagh sides of 2002-2006 and the current team, with your reference to Wexford above, its clear this is something you fail to grasp.

[AZOffaly]

I'm a neutral, and I don't see anything totally crazy in it. He says they are not the 'best' team of the decade. I think it's only fair to say that Armagh have been a huge influence on the decade, from their amazing run in Ulster, to their repeated involvement in the business end of the All Ireland championship. Tyrone are obviously another team that can lay claim to being one of the teams of the decade, as of course can Kerry, who probably are the team of the decade.

[corn02]

The only person ranting here is from Armagh! Seriously, I doubt if anyone neutral would describe Shannon's story as a 'reasonably decent piece of journalism'. Yes, there's a few tangible arguments in there but the rest of it is so dubious that it undermines the overall piece.

Your on the rant son.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Who says they weren't? The O'Dwyer-Loughnane maxim about a great side winning a second All Ireland was a guideline, not a stipulation. John O'Mahony's Galway won a second. Does anyone seriously think that side was greater than Joe Kernan's?

I do Kieran. They won two All-Ireland's after all and were desperately close to a third which you may have forgotten about. All that sports pyschology must be playing havoc with your memory. Plus the one time they actually met that Galway team they were beaten by them.