GAA must 'reach out' to unionism

[Evil Genius]

If you are going to continue to insist that discussion of political commemorations by soccer clubs/bodies in the north is somehow unrelated to discussion of how such commemorations are handled by GAA, then it's really just a waste of time trying to engage with you. And you're just wasting your own time trying if you think anyone will take you seriously.

The thread title is: "GAA must 'reach out' to unionism" 

The opening line of the first post is:
"Fermanagh GAA player and journalist Colm Bradley has said further steps should be taken to encourage unionists to play gaelic games."

Do you agree with Mr. Bradley and if so, do you think that this memorial, whether allowable or not, is helpful to that end?

Or do you disagree with him?

Humour me with an answer.

You know, as the only Unionist about the place...

[tiempo]

If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?

Or would he/she just shrug it off?

Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.

Personal choice
Personal choice

Hope this helps

Sorry, but it doesn't really help, since you don't disclose what your choice would be (i.e. carry on in, or turn on your heels and leave).

Just wondering, would you advocate violence against cultural expression or have unionists given that up? Reaching out to the oppressor, what a deranged concept, leave that for lickspittles and the like

May I deduce from that that you consider all of your Unionist neighbours/friends/workmates etc to be your "oppressors"?

And if so, does that mean you think the GAA must not attempt to reach out to Unionists (that being the topic of this discussion and all).

I would not partake (personal choice)

Only those who actively actively partook in you know what, their supporters and their apologists, a sizable majority in the context of the oppression otherwise it wouldn't have been possible

The GAA would be well advised to try and build bridges while also being careful not to alienate their longstanding base, there is always room for outreach, it works both ways, lets see how Unionists get on in May and then tell me their readiness for outreach

[Evil Genius]

evil genius
not defending your right to challenge,
but i would say
1 the clonoe memorial is a memorial made by a gaa club not by the gaa as a generic organisation which is deliberately trying to stay clear of this minefield in both the South with the civil war commemorations and the North.
my own feelings are that   anyone is entitled to recognise their fallen on both sides , it isnt one sided, but its a political point.


i would be surprised if consent was sought and obtained from the trustees given rule 1.11 but maybe i am wrong.

OK, for the sake of argument, let us assume that this memorial does not contravene the Trustees' rules or those of the GAA.

Let us further agree that it is not comtravening the law of the land, along with the general principle that people understandably want to commemorate their dead etc.

That being so, do you accept that such memorials and commemorations can only serve to deter even moderate Unionists from getting involved with the GAA, not just the usual bucketmouths who, as has been pointed out, are ever looking for a stick with which to beat you, regardless of what you say or do?

And if you do agree - and this moderate Unionist would strongly advise that you should - then is it more important to you that clubs should be permitted to maintain this sort of activity, than it is to reach out to their Unionist neighbours?

[Snapchap]

A quick glance through your old posts suggests you have no qualms about discussing things that actually are unrelated to the thread. You've discussed the A5 road project in a thread specifically about Casement Park. You've discussed your thoughts on Hunger Strike in a thread specifically about attitudes of people in the south to the north. In a thread about GAA finances, you discussed soccer broadcasting. In a thread about potentially merging the LGFA and Camogie associations into the GAA, you discussed such a wide range of topics as offensive chanting and even the history of the Swastika.

So yeah, you're very particular about keeping threads on topic aren't you?

In fact, in a thread about East Belfast GAA, you were more than keen to discuss ni soccer and Winsdor park and GSTQ.

But in a discussion about political commemorations in GAA grounds, you simply point blank refuse to discuss such commemorations in soccer grounds, because it it's not the subject of the thread?

Away and cop yourself on and stop being a coward.

EDIT:

Besides, if, as you keep insisting, you cant bring yourself to discuss soccer/windsor park here because, in your words, "This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists" and that "if I want to discuss the IFA" then I should "start another thread", then why do you simultaneously ask about how UVF memorials in soccer grounds would go down among nationalists? Are we allowed to discuss commemorations by by IFA/soccer clubs or not? Make your mind up!

[Itchy]

Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.

Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.

I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.

I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.

[naka]

evil genius
not defending your right to challenge,
but i would say
1 the clonoe memorial is a memorial made by a gaa club not by the gaa as a generic organisation which is deliberately trying to stay clear of this minefield in both the South with the civil war commemorations and the North.
my own feelings are that   anyone is entitled to recognise their fallen on both sides , it isnt one sided, but its a political point.


i would be surprised if consent was sought and obtained from the trustees given rule 1.11 but maybe i am wrong.

OK, for the sake of argument, let us assume that this memorial does not contravene the Trustees' rules or those of the GAA.
(simple google search shows the rules , so rule 1.11 bans party political so am not assuming), 

Let us further agree that it is not comtravening the law of the land, along with the general principle that people understandably want to commemorate their dead etc.

That being so, do you accept that such memorials and commemorations can only serve to deter even moderate Unionists from getting involved with the GAA, not just the usual bucketmouths who, as has been pointed out, are ever looking for a stick with which to beat you, regardless of what you say or do?
[



my club has a fair few unionists and indeed i have gone to watch the North, most fair mainded people on both side see the greater good, and arent interested in what the belligerents on both sides spouts.
[/font]
And if you do agree - and this moderate Unionist would strongly advise that you should - then is it more important to you that clubs should be permitted to maintain this sort of activity, than it is to reach out to their Unionist neighbours?



clubs like soccer clubs have their own agendas/ views, i dont disparage a whole section of a community because of what one club does.
the gaa is a force for good and  indeed in my own office it has come a long way from when i was training in my profession and having asked for the monday off because i was playing afinal the day before was told no and was asked was i playing that foreign game, thankfully most people from teh unionist persuasion are fairly nowledgeable about it at this stage 

[Evil Genius]

I would not partake (personal choice)

Only those who actively actively partook in you know what, their supporters and their apologists, a sizable majority in the context of the oppression otherwise it wouldn't have been possible

I'm sorry, it may be me, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.

The GAA would be well advised to try and build bridges while also being careful not to alienate their longstanding base, there is always room for outreach, it works both ways

Fair enough, except that when it comes to the crunch, building such memorials is incompatible with building bridges. That is, you may have the former, but you won't have the latter. Meaning there's a choice to be made.

(I won't tell you what that choice should be, since that must be one for the GAA to make).

lets see how Unionists get on in May and then tell me their readiness for outreach

Why on earth should an election have anything to do it? Isn't it for the GAA to address on its own merits?

Or are you suggesting it's Unionists' fault that the GAA is facing this conundrum? That is, we should just be expected to put up with this sort of thing if we are to participate?

[Solo_run]

If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?

Or would he/she just shrug it off?

Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.

If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?

Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?

This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists.

If you wish to discuss eg the IFA reaching out to Nationailists, why not start a separate thread on that in the appropriate section?

After all, we wouldn't like to think you were hoping to deflect the discussion on this thread, would we?

Which brings us back to my original question. Any answer?

What a laughably pathetic reply. Surely even you could read that back and realise who cowardly it comes across.

If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of political memorials in GAA grounds, then it's perfectly within the same sphere of discussion to discuss how political memorials are handled by other sports organisations in the same geographical region, by people who lived through the same shared experience of the same conflict.

SO enough dodging.

So start a separate thread on the topic and see whether I dodge that one then.

In the meantime, my entirely on-topic question was a simple one - UVF memorial" in a soccer club: head on in or turn away?


* - Not that I know of any, since it would undoubtedly be contrary to the rules and regs of the IFA.

If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?

Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?

You're quite the fan of this Whataboutery game, aren't you?

How are you on Wordle, I'm having a bit of a problem with today's puzzle.

I could probably answer this as there are three situations that come to mind.

I have been in Larne (have family there) and I have been into a Rangers supporters club with flags, pictures etc. They knew we were catholic and it certainly helped they knew my uncle but if that had not been the case we wouldn't have been welcomed in they made that quite clear at one point.

On another occasion, I have never been in the place but I use to live across the road from a Rangers supporters club. A protestant girl was having a 21st birthday and her friend was catholic and I think she was the same age went to the party. The men in the club beat the shit out of the girl when they found out she was catholic - I think they found out by her surname or knew of her.

You can't tarnish everyone with the same brush. However, based on my experiences I would have to say I could probably go into a pub that is staunchly unionist but I definitely wouldn't feel welcome or would want to stay even with a friend present.   

I have been to catholic places with protestant mates and from experience no trouble whatsoever. My best friend is a protestant and we have gone to a few GAA games again no problems there.

[Snapchap]

Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.

Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.

I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.

I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.

They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.

[Evil Genius]

A quick glance through your old posts suggests you have no qualms about discussing things that actually are unrelated to the thread. You've discussed the A5 road project in a thread specifically about Casement Park. You've discussed your thoughts on Hunger Strike in a thread specifically about attitudes of people in the south to the north. In a thread about GAA finances, you discussed soccer broadcasting. In a thread about potentially merging the LGFA and Camogie associations into the GAA, you discussed such a wide range of topics as offensive chanting and even the history of the Swastika.

So yeah, you're very particular about keeping threads on topic aren't you?

In fact, in a thread about East Belfast GAA, you were more than keen to discuss ni soccer and Winsdor park and GSTQ.

But in a discussion about political commemorations in GAA grounds, you simply point blank refuse to discuss such commemorations in soccer grounds, because it it's not the subject of the thread?

Away and cop yourself on and stop being a coward.

EDIT:

Besides, if, as you keep insisting, you cant bring yourself to discuss soccer/windsor park here because, in your words, "This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists" and that "if I want to discuss the IFA" then I should "start another thread", then why do you simultaneously ask about how UVF memorials in soccer grounds would go down among nationalists? Are we allowed to discuss commemorations by by IFA/soccer clubs or not? Make your mind up!

Ok, since you clearly will not answer a simple question, I am forced to deduce that you are foresquare behind the erection of this memorial and the ceremony which went with it etc, and you don't care if it alienates Unionists from participating in the GAA, including its outreach programme.

Fine - your organisation, your choice.

As a soccer fan who firmly believes in "Sport For All", I shall just have to console  myself with the knowledge that while we'll always attract eg "your" Pat Jennings, you'll never attract "our" George Best.

Oh well.

P.S. You might want to change your User Name, since your "chat" isn't so "snappy". 

[clubman21]

P.S. You might want to change your User Name, since your "chat" isn't so "snappy". 

Hardly much of a genius, walked into that one i'm afraid.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?

If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.

I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.

Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.

Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.

And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?

This is pure whataboutery.

Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.

Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested

[Evil Genius]

I could probably answer this as there are three situations that come to mind.

I have been in Larne (have family there) and I have been into a Rangers supporters club with flags, pictures etc. They knew we were catholic and it certainly helped they knew my uncle but if that had not been the case we wouldn't have been welcomed in they made that quite clear at one point.

On another occasion, I have never been in the place but I use to live across the road from a Rangers supporters club. A protestant girl was having a 21st birthday and her friend was catholic and I think she was the same age went to the party. The men in the club beat the shit out of the girl when they found out she was catholic - I think they found out by her surname or knew of her.

You can't tarnish everyone with the same brush. However, based on my experiences I would have to say I could probably go into a pub that is staunchly unionist but I definitely wouldn't feel welcome or would want to stay even with a friend present.   

I have been to catholic places with protestant mates and from experience no trouble whatsoever. My best friend is a protestant and we have gone to a few GAA games again no problems there.

Thank you for your answer. But with respect, a self-appointed supporters club (in this case Glasgow Rangers) is not the same as an official member club, which will be subject to the rules and disciplinary measures of the governing body, whether IFA, SFA or GAA etc.

I myself have been at an NI away game and upon stepping into a bar, heard "party tunes" being sung from within, at which point me any my mates turned on our heels and found another bar, the point being that there was no such repetition of that carry-on at the match the next day.

As for the rest of your post, sadly the bitterness and bigotry you describe is all too common, even now, and must be roundly deplored in all quarters, without reservation or qualification.

[Snapchap]

A quick glance through your old posts suggests you have no qualms about discussing things that actually are unrelated to the thread. You've discussed the A5 road project in a thread specifically about Casement Park. You've discussed your thoughts on Hunger Strike in a thread specifically about attitudes of people in the south to the north. In a thread about GAA finances, you discussed soccer broadcasting. In a thread about potentially merging the LGFA and Camogie associations into the GAA, you discussed such a wide range of topics as offensive chanting and even the history of the Swastika.

So yeah, you're very particular about keeping threads on topic aren't you?

In fact, in a thread about East Belfast GAA, you were more than keen to discuss ni soccer and Winsdor park and GSTQ.

But in a discussion about political commemorations in GAA grounds, you simply point blank refuse to discuss such commemorations in soccer grounds, because it it's not the subject of the thread?

Away and cop yourself on and stop being a coward.

EDIT:

Besides, if, as you keep insisting, you cant bring yourself to discuss soccer/windsor park here because, in your words, "This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists" and that "if I want to discuss the IFA" then I should "start another thread", then why do you simultaneously ask about how UVF memorials in soccer grounds would go down among nationalists? Are we allowed to discuss commemorations by by IFA/soccer clubs or not? Make your mind up!

Ok, since you clearly will not answer a simple question, I am forced to deduce that you are foresquare behind the erection of this memorial and the ceremony which went with it etc, and you don't care if it alienates Unionists from participating in the GAA, including its outreach programme.

Fine - your organisation, your choice.

As a soccer fan who firmly believes in "Sport For All", I shall just have to console  myself with the knowledge that while we'll always attract eg "your" Pat Jennings, you'll never attract "our" George Best.

Oh well.

P.S. You might want to change your User Name, since your "chat" isn't so "snappy". 

Glad to hear you're finally willing to discuss the soccer parallel. So: my position is that so long as commemorations with political connections are allowed in sports grounds, such as in places like Windsor Park, then they should be permissible in a GAA ground too.

A unionist might not be kicking the door down today to join the Clonoe Club purely because of this memorial. By the same token, a young nationalist may not be kicking the doors down to get to Windsor Park, upon seeing British War dead being commemorated there.

Either you oppose both and believe both should be banned, or you accept that both can continue and decide to live with the ones that you mightn't like, or you are a hypocrite. So which is it: Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from all sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?

PS. Interesting that you are going to again make assumptions about the religions of GAA players, not a week after making incorrect (sectarian motivated?) assumptions about the religious make-up of the Down hurling team on another thread. Did you learn nothing then?

[Snapchap]

Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?

If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.

I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.

Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.

Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.

And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?

This is pure whataboutery.

Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.

Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested

Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.

And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.