The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[Zapatista]

It's all very complicated. I'll abstain.

Are you in the Green Party?

[AZOffaly]

No, if he was in the Greens, the issue wouldn't even exist.

[Zapatista]

I think the Green Party don't exist in regard to this issue. Have you been sucked into that vacuum Silky?

I was looking for a copy of the treaty and apparently it is only available to download (if your knowledge of the internet allows you and you can print the 100s of pages required) or, for the modest fee of E42 in Westmoreland St Dublin, and that's only the new treaty. Still no old treaty or third document to tell the difference. I will write to my local Cllrs to try and make it available in the library. I will let you know how I get on.

Here is the website for the independent group set up by the Government (FF-PD-Ind who support yes and the Greens who don't know there is a debate) to encourage debate on the issue -

http://www.forumoneurope.ie/index.asp

I attended a meeting they held recently (their first public meeting) and they we widely criticized for swaying towards a yes vote. They did say the would review and amend their approach.

[Zapatista]

Report here. Looks like an army to me.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&mode=XML&reference=A6-2008-0013&language=EN#title8

[Zapatista]

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86337

Sinn Féin Dublin MEP Mary Lou Mc Donald has this afternoon expressed her
"anger and incredulity" over the European Parliaments vote today NOT to
respect the result of the Lisbon Treaty referendum.

The plot thickens

[Zapatista]

Where to now? I'd say Ahern has a weakening position in relation to a big EU job. If this trearty dosen't pass you can rule him out. It's thought the referendum would be held in June. If it is put back we might not get time to run it again if we make the wrong choice.

[Zapatista]

I took this from P.ie. It's one of Dave Cochrane's posts with scaned pages from the Daily Mail. I'm sure he won't mind me posting it here?

" This morning's Daily Mail has a front page story on a leaked email that the Mail has obtained. Written by a civil servant in the Department of Foreign Affairs to a Diplomat in the British Embassy.

Amongst the items reported in the memo

1. The Government have ruled out a delay in the referendum to October for fear of the French Presidency

2. That Dermot Ahern has sought guarantees that the European Commission will tone down or delay any announcements that might damage the Yes campaign.

3. That developments in the area of Common Defence pushed by the French Presidency would damage the Yes campaign.

4. Concerns of losing support by the Agriculture community as a result of the latest WTO discussions.

5. An intention to not discuss the treaty but focus on the overall benefits of EU membership

6. A plan to fool No campaigners over the date of the referendum by playing with the date of the referendum - the memo suggests May 29th as the referendum date.

I've uploaded scans of the article, they are there below."


http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=33911

[Pangurban]

I tell you in all seriousness if this referendum wins assent, we are fecked. It will also be the last referendum ever held in this country, as Brussels will have been given a blank cheque to decide our future, we will in effect have torn up our own constitution and replaced it with a document which they dont even want us to see , discuss or understand.

[Owenmoresider]

I tell you in all seriousness if this referendum wins assent, we are fecked. It will also be the last referendum ever held in this country, as Brussels will have been given a blank cheque to decide our future, we will in effect have torn up our own constitution and replaced it with a document which they dont even want us to see , discuss or understand.

Indeed, but just like the grants debate at Congress, people won't see the wood from the trees, can't see what the long-term agenda of those pushing it is, and will do what they are told is good for them by their betters. Merkel and her ilk can f**k off and stay out of trying to influence the matter.

Incidentally, I believe there was an EU directive introduced some time ago seeking to impose an effective ban on turf cutting, and we are due to implement it soon. Haven't been able to locate any report on this (the Irish media report something negative on the EU, never!) but no doubt it'll be kept to one side, would do the 'yes' camp no good in this part of the country, not least in our own household. The EEC we joined (signed in by President Hillery incidentally, RIP) was broadly a trading market, and that was fine. But it's going too far, the fact that Govts have to implement directives, whether they like it or not, doesn't exactly smack of democracy. We didn't join back in 1973 to be told whether we can cut turf, or view people's corpses at wakes etc. And do we ever get to have our say on the EU Commission? Hell no, at least we get that with the Govt every five years max.

Whenever they decide to put it to us, my decision will be, in the words of a certain woman on the same topic, "No, No, No".

[Farrandeelin]

I think it's all going to be 'Imperialism by Stealth'. If we vote yes, we will be removing 32 more law-making decisions from Dáil Éireann to Brussells. I presume it's going to be the same for all the other parliaments. Yes, I saw that from a 'No' campaigner, but the fact that no Yes men/women have come out against it means it is probably true. And as for the bullshit of us getting kicked out if we vote no, well it's just a load of nonsense...

[Tankie]

I don't think we really have a choice on this one as all the European lads will go crazy if we vote No so i'm gonna vote Yes regardless. If we vote no we could find ourselves in trouble when to comes to looking for help down the line. Sure it cant be that bad if every government is going for it and even the opposition are going for it. except SF of course.

[Owenmoresider]

I don't think we really have a choice on this one as all the European lads will go crazy if we vote No so i'm gonna vote Yes regardless.

Marvellous. Sure we shouldn't even be an inconvenience to those wonderful Europeans by going through that awful democracy thing with a referendum? Maybe we should just avoid it like the other 26, what's a constitution between friends anyway eh?

Sure it cant be that bad if every government is going for it and even the opposition are going for it. except SF of course.

They always have, they would take on anything the EU says, FG especially. And Bertie wants a gig in Brussels too, wouldn't want to deny him that either I suppose.

[Zapatista]

I don't think we really have a choice on this one as all the European lads will go crazy if we vote No so i'm gonna vote Yes regardless. If we vote no we could find ourselves in trouble when to comes to looking for help down the line. Sure it cant be that bad if every government is going for it and even the opposition are going for it. except SF of course.

I see Tankie, the Irish people will not be bullied by the British Empire but if the EU want to bully us that's fine we will roll over and take it up the ****** willingly. How could we find our selves in trouble down the line? Will the EU implement a type of ethnic cleansing against the Irish? How about they act like a democracy and draw up a better and more acceptable treaty (like they have pretended to do since the French and Dutch rejected this treaty). SF are not they only party to oppose it. There are other parties and groups (trade Unions) in Ireland who oppose it not to mention the French and Dutch people, many Labour, Green and other partys across Europe. I think this is pure electioneering by FG and labour, the Greens can't convince their own people to support it and who knows what kind of deal FF have done to sell this treaty - will Celia Larkin be buying up property in South of France next year?

[Tankie]

We have to remember our place in Europe, we are one of the smallest countries in the Union and we must remember that. There has to be reform to get the Union working more freely for everyone in Europe, we have done very well out of this EU gig and i do not beleive that the government or the other 26 governments are out to screw themselves and us over. You always have to give something up but atleast we have kept control of our taxation and i would be will to give up a commissioner for that.

[Zapatista]

We have to remember our place in Europe, we are one of the smallest countries in the Union and we must remember that. There has to be reform to get the Union working more freely for everyone in Europe, we have done very well out of this EU gig and i do not beleive that the government or the other 26 governments are out to screw themselves and us over. You always have to give something up but atleast we have kept control of our taxation and i would be will to give up a commissioner for that.

We know our place in Europe. Our place in Europe is at an equal with the rest of Europe. Stop trying to divert from the treaty. You can talk all you want about Europe but the issue is the treaty.

Do you think the good people in Rossport should accept whatever Shell and the Government offer on the first go just because they are a small community or because the Government opened a FAS centre there 10 years ago? Have they no right to question what is on offer in order to decide if it is good or bad and maybe secure a better deal?

So are you admiting we are not gaining anthing but instead giving up something? But that it is fine as the benevolant EU are allowing us to keep a tax system which we already have? Germany and France (and some others) are in favour of one European Corperate Tax Rate. This Treaty allow more power to big Countrys such as Germany and France as it becomes population centred and does away with our veto. It is a very real posibility that in the near future the EU will have one CTR if this current Treaty on offer is accepted.