New hurling format adopted

[Onlooker]

There has to be a hidden agenda in having Galway and Antrim playing one another in the 1st Round every year.  Fair play certainly does not come in to it.  Last year the 8 counties in Division 4 of the National Football League were not allowed play in the qualifiers.  That was grossly unfair and now Antrim are told that they will be playing Galway in the 1st Round every year.  Martin Breheny has a good article on the treatment given to Antrim in to-day's Indo.  

[Lecale2]

The betrayal of Antrim
Here is the article from the Indo:


The Antrim players, pictured here in action during training at Casement Park earlier this year, have now been condemned to being knocked out of the championship by the same team - Galway - every year.


The betrayal of Antrim

By Martin Breheny
Wednesday October 03 2007


LAST Saturday was one of the darkest and starkest days in the history of hurling, dark in that those charged with nurturing the game betrayed one of their own, stark in the brutal manner it extinguished a light across Antrim.


Draw a line from Dublin to Galway and you will find south of which, it appears, nobody gives a damn about Antrim or their likes. That's the only conclusion to be reached from the disgraceful way Antrim are being treated by the latest changes to the championship format.

Antrim are quoted at 1,000/1 to win next year's All-Ireland title but, in reality, it's more like 100,000/1. In fact, Antrim have little chance of ever winning another game in the All-Ireland series under the new system.

Their pleas for fair play were ignored by Special Congress which instead voted to hire the biggest bouncers to ensure that Antrim are ejected from the All-Ireland party with maximum force every year.

Yet while Antrim, who with Laois and Dublin are regarded as the weakest three in the 12-strong race for the Liam McCarthy Cup, face All-Ireland desolation year after year, Kilkenny, the most potent force in the land, have had their passage smoothed.

Horse-racing handicaps the better horses to improve competition; the GAA lifts the load off the strong and lumps it onto the weak.

It is, as Antrim chairman John McSparran has said, an absolute travesty. And if it wasn't bad enough to be handed by far the worst deal of all, Antrim had to listen to patronising guff from other counties about no system being perfect.

From 2008 on, Antrim will play Galway in their first game every year. They will lose that and then play the quarter-final losers in Munster. Year after year, Antrim will be whipped in two games. There will be no provision for a situation where they get a game against one of the weaker sides in Leinster.

Galway will beat Antrim and then take on a losing Leinster quarter-finalists which is a much easier route. Galway opposed the new system too, but they're strong enough to overcome its inequality.

By way of comparison, let's examine the path to the All-Ireland semi-finals facing Antrim, ranked 11th at best, and Kilkenny, the undisputed No1.

Kilkenny can book a semi-final place by winning two games in a lop-sided Leinster championship where their main rivals are Wexford and Offaly, who at 66/1 and 200/1 respectively for the 2008 All-Ireland, are 8th and 9th favourites.

So while Kilkenny book their place in the All-Ireland semi-final with two relatively straight-forward wins, Antrim will start their adventure with a defeat by Galway. They then take on one of five strong Munster teams. Let's assume that they somehow managed to upset the odds and win.

They would then play a beaten semi-finalist from Leinster or Munster. Given Leinster's weakness (other than for Kilkenny), Antrim would most likely face Munster opposition and even if they won that, they would still only be in the All-Ireland quarter-final where they would face the losing finalists from Leinster or Munster.

Based on this year's draw, Antrim (assuming they lost to Galway in the first round) would probably have had to beat Clare, Cork or Tipperary, then Limerick or Waterford to qualify for the same stage of the championship as Kilkenny would reach by beating Offaly and Wexford.

The system is so disgracefully weighted against Antrim that you really do wonder how 55 of the 72 delegates voted in favour last Saturday.

Joint-managers, 'Sambo' McNaughton and Dominic McKinley, two of Antrim's proudest hurling men, had high hopes of steering the squad forward over the next few years but Saturday's decision took a wrecking ball to their ambitions.

Scandalously, Antrim got very little support from Ulster counties in their battle against injustice.

Worst of all, the majority of the hurling fraternity from Leinster/Munster voted to support the most inequitable championship system yet introduced.

Shame on all concerned.

 

[tayto]

Agree with the general gist of that but it's written slightly over the top way ey.
Could we not start with Antrim coming into Leinster? They're for it arent they?

[theskull1]

I can sympathies with the county management here. Last years system of round robin games (whilst it suited Cork) also gave the weaker Counties a chance to develop over the three games and it was especially good to see Southern teams competing in Casement Park in the summer months. I think support would have grown in Antrim if this format was maintained This year guarantees no progress and from Sambo and Woodies perspective I can see why they would be livid.

On the other hand it provides an opportunity for the Div 1 club league. The middle order in Div 1 in Antrim was poor this year but St Johns/Ballycastle/Rossa & St Gall all have the potential to improve if the right efforts are made within those clubs. If Antrim provide a decent timetable of fixtures next year, I can see improvements in standards as well as an increase in interest levels, which it has to be said, have improved already this year due to a fairly well laid out league timetable this year

[Rossfan]

It's not often I agree with Breheny's bellyaching but this time I'm with him 100%.
Just what were they thinking of?
Surely they could have made the Galway/Antrim game a Qualifier of sorts e.g winner goes into Quarter Final,loser to first Round or else simply have an open draw -Galway/Antrim and Leinster and Munster first round losers?
Offaly got the NHL changed because they were going into Div 2 so I suppose Antrim will now go mad lobbying to get this changed.
Then we will have another short term solution which will annoy someone else etc etc. and the saga starts all over again.......

[the destroyer]

stop yer crying uy soppy heures. if u want to be up there in the top,u gotta beat the top teams. wise up

[Gnevin]

Kelly claims hurling changes may be illegal
09 October 2007

Former GAA president Sean Kelly has suggested that the recent Special Congress decision to revise the hurling championship format may be open to a legal challenge.

Describing the changes as "extraordinary", Kelly added that they are possibly illegal, firstly because Special Congress overturned a decision of annual Congress without that decision ever being implemented and, secondly, because the vote was not representative of Congress.

Writing in his weekly newspaper column, he questions whether a decision of annual Congress can be overruled by a special meeting six months later and adds: "The most serious grounds for believing Special Congress last Saturday week was illegal is on the basis of representation.

"If Galway or Antrim (who were both opposed to the hurling championship changes) were to appeal the matter on those grounds, they would almost certainly win their case."


And on it rolls
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=84446

[The Real Laoislad]

As i said b4

..........Provincial winners gained no advantage over Provincal losers as to progression in AI competition.
..........The Semple gate affair, handled terribly. Amateur players deserve better.
..........Cork could have won an AI having lost two games.
..........Kilkenny have not played a Munster team.
.........Waterford played 5 championship games this year yet only met two teams.
.........No one outside of the Big 8 made the breakthrough.
.........Limerick are in the final having played no one outside of Munster
.........League games proved to be a mess with Laois, Dublin, Antrim and Offaly getting hidings
.........Wexford got to a semi-final and distorted their standing.
........The doubling up of replays of quarterfinals with Semifinals to get 45 euro for tickets where often the other game was the other code.

Kilkenny and Cork win AIs. We have 4/6 others who can pretend. And we have 24 others who are just so far off of the mark it is not funny. The Ring and Rickard Cups have tried to address the problem in weaker counties but this has been nearly impossible to grade and the finals just end up one sided. Yes we got some good games but, there seemed to be a case of rearranging the deck chairs to the Championship. You lose here you go into a league Basis, it just seems to be about giving you chances and chances to qualify for the quarters. then again when you have a championship with 8 teams i suppose you have to do that. So much for it being called an "ALL" Ireland title.

Provincial champioship is holding back a successful format. If GAA is so caught up with Provincial format, why is there not provincial Ring/Rickard titles? (Would be a handy Munster Hurling title for Kerry!)

Laois didn't get any hidings in their League,They won Div 2
Did Dublin not beat Limerick and draw with Kilkenny?

[A Quinn Martin Production]

While we can all cry foul about the actions of the Leinster/Munster counties (who obviously don't give a rattlers about hurling outside their own domains) the biggest knife in the back came from those cnuts in Londondown who supported the proposals!!  I can forgive them for falling over themselves to let the PSNI into the Association but for this, (to quote our first minister), "Never, never,never"

[Gnevin]

McSparran taking to the courts for Antrim

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Tuesday, October 16, 2007

By Michael McGeary

The GAA in Antrim is set to mount a legal challenge to the controversial new hurling championship format.

Ironically they will proceed through the courts after taking advice from former GAA President Sean Kelly.

It was Kelly who questioned the legitimacy of the recent Special Congress to make a decision that will see Antrim play Galway each year in the All Ireland hurling championship.

You have to admire Antrim chairman Dr John McSparran for having the courage of his convictions to press ahead with the legal challenge.

A lesser individual would have talked the talked without ever walking the walk, but the North Antrim doctor feels there's far too much at stake.

Antrim has to stand up and fight and if that means going to the High Court so be it.

Under the new arrangement passed at the Special Congress Antrim would play Galway every year with the losers then playing one of the first round losers in Munster, hardly the ideal scenario.

"I have no hesitation in exploring all options in an attempt to overturn the decision taken by Special Congress in an attempt to create a more level playing field for both ourselves and Galway." said McSparran.

The management committee of the Antrim Board are now set to discuss the matter and McSparran said: "It's important we act in the best interests of our county hurling team.

"Whatever action that may be open to open to us we'll study it very closely in a bid to reverse the ludicrous decision taken at Special Congress.

"There are a number of hurling people in the south saying this decision was hard on Antrim.

"Yet they all voted for it. That's Pontious Pilate stuff."

The threat of a legal challenge is the last thing the GAA want to hear, especially given the fact that it's something they have been desperately trying to eradicate.

It's the last thing the sport wants, but at least they know now that Antrim and especially chairman John McSparran are deadly serious.

Genuine hurling people in Antrim believe they are now being isolated by the same people, who have patronised them for far too long.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/article3064579.ece

[thejuice]

I've been mulling over this for some time now, hows this sound for a hurling championship format.

12 teams

open draw, possibly a seeded draw

teams at come up agianst each other play each other 3 times with the aggregate score of those games being the decider. Before you criticise it. There would be no easy game where you could accept defeat because every score counts. So each team will be gauranteed 3 hell for leather matches as each teams will be trying to rack up the scores in every game.

The eventual losers go home to lick their wounds for a year except the 2 highest scoring losers.

4 of the 6 winners face off in a knock out stage and then the remaining 2 teams play the highest scoring losers in another knock out stage.

Then on to the semi's  and then the final.

Minimum total number of games: 25

Minimum games per team: 3

Maximum games per team: 6

The big + for this format is that every game is highly competitive, no second chance unless your one of the 2 high scoring losers and every one is garuanteed 3 games. The rivalries between teams will increase with every year aswell.

downside maybe if 2 uneven teams come up against each other. may make playing three games reduntant as fixtures but every format is going to have a similar problem. But if teams are seeded that might help the minnows stay away from the very top teams.ie: Kilkenny vs Laois/Dublin/Antrim can be avoided.

I think as a format it would work as every game would be played at 100%.

So what do you reckon, workable, need any tweaks. We can only help the minnows on so much you know.

[Gnevin]

I've been mulling over this for some time now, hows this sound for a hurling championship format.

12 teams

open draw, possibly a seeded draw

teams at come up agianst each other play each other 3 times with the aggregate score of those games being the decider. Before you criticise it. There would be no easy game where you could accept defeat because every score counts. So each team will be gauranteed 3 hell for leather matches as each teams will be trying to rack up the scores in every game.

The eventual losers go home to lick their wounds for a year except the 2 highest scoring losers.

4 of the 6 winners face off in a knock out stage and then the remaining 2 teams play the highest scoring losers in another knock out stage.

Then on to the semi's  and then the final.

Minimum total number of games: 25

Minimum games per team: 3

Maximum games per team: 6

The big + for this format is that every game is highly competitive, no second chance unless your one of the 2 high scoring losers and every one is garuanteed 3 games. The rivalries between teams will increase with every year aswell.

downside maybe if 2 uneven teams come up against each other. may make playing three games reduntant as fixtures but every format is going to have a similar problem. But if teams are seeded that might help the minnows stay away from the very top teams.ie: Kilkenny vs Laois/Dublin/Antrim can be avoided.

I think as a format it would work as every game would be played at 100%.

So what do you reckon, workable, need any tweaks. We can only help the minnows on so much you know.

I like the idea but couldn't KK or the big guns qualify in their first match by blasting Loais/Dub/Offaly/Antrim with 40/50 points?

[dec]

I have posted this before in another thread but I think it is on topic for this one as well.

My suggestion

Ulster championship played as a straight knockout. Winners go into Leinster Q/Fs. Rest of the teams go into Ring and Rackard Cup.

Connacht champions (Galway) go into Leinster Q/Fs.

Leinster championship (Dublin, Kilkenny, Laois, Offaly, Wexford, Galway and Ulster champions)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.

Munster championship (Clare, Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Waterford)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.

Backdoor

Round 1 (teams that don't make provincial final, 5 Leinster and 3 Munster)
Round 2 (4 winners of backdoor round 1)
Round 3 (2 winners of backdoor round 2 and 2 beaten provincial finalists)

Semi finals
Munster winners v One backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)
Leinster winners v Other backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)

[Bogball XV]

Just looking at the bookies odds shows what a balls up the new format is:

Kilkenny  4 - 5   
Tipperary  11 - 1   
Offaly  250 - 1   

Cork  7 - 2   
Limerick  14 - 1   
Dublin  500 - 1   

Waterford  5 - 1   
Clare  33 - 1   
Antrim  1000 - 1   

Galway  13 - 2   
Wexford  66 - 1   
Laois  1000 - 1   

Each Way Odds 1/3 places 1,2

Kilkenny odds on to win - ridiculous (not the price, but the thinking behind the format).

[tayto]

I have posted this before in another thread but I think it is on topic for this one as well.

My suggestion

Ulster championship played as a straight knockout. Winners go into Leinster Q/Fs. Rest of the teams go into Ring and Rackard Cup.

Connacht champions (Galway) go into Leinster Q/Fs.

Leinster championship (Dublin, Kilkenny, Laois, Offaly, Wexford, Galway and Ulster champions)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.

Munster championship (Clare, Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Waterford)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.

Backdoor

Round 1 (teams that don't make provincial final, 5 Leinster and 3 Munster)
Round 2 (4 winners of backdoor round 1)
Round 3 (2 winners of backdoor round 2 and 2 beaten provincial finalists)

Semi finals
Munster winners v One backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)
Leinster winners v Other backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)

That is spot on if you ask me. Makes so much sense. please send it to nicky B and the Galway and Antrim boards, I cant see why Glaway would have aproblem witht hat format. It reads so much easier then most formatts and that can only be a good thing.