After the Darren Graham Affair is settled

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Oh yeah, I'd kinda forgotten those! I'd have to say, if Unionists are going to be attracted to GAA in any significant numbers, then it will only be when GAA drops its traditionally Nationalist ethos. As such, the Tricolour and Anthem are integral parts of that ethos.

Frankly, I can't see any way the Unionist identity could also be reflected alongside the Nationalist one at GAA games, nor should it, even were it possible (imo), since I don't like "branding" people, nor mixing politics and sport.

The best solution I've seen is to follow the example of Cricket, which doesn't have any anthems before games and which in the Irish context merely flies the flag of the Irish Cricket Union.

Alternatively, at GAA games it might be workable to fly the respective Provincial Flags of the teams playing, plus perhaps a specially commissioned GAA Flag, if Central Council insisted.

Similarly for anthems, perhaps each province might have its own, non-political song ("Danny Boy" for Ulster?), and the GAA could commission its own equivalent to rugby's "Ireland's Call"?

On reflection, I've no doubt that the prospect of dropping the Soldiers Song and Tricolour will shock, even appall, many otherwise apolitical GAA fans, since they are a cherished part of GAA tradition. But the sky didn't fall in when GSTQ was played for the England Rugby Team at Croke Park a few months back, so I doubt it would scupper GAA entirely to have to select a new song or flag.

Anyhow, at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, such issues merely highlight the choice which is facing the GAA. That is, it may embrace Nationalism, or embrace Unionists, but not both at the same time.

Indeed and I have no doubt that soon over in Windsor Park a neutral anthem will be played with a neutral flag fluttering over it.   I have a lot of doubts that the swarms of nationalists won over by FFA feel comfortable with these trappings.   Of course though their love of their chosen sport means that they put up with and get on with it.  Likewise, so can those of the unionist tradition involved in GAA.

Of course if overtime the number of unionists (or nationalists or whatever) within the GAA decide they don't want the anthem or tricolour at matches then fine it will change.  

However for now I don't see it changing. (just like I don't see the IFA making changes of a similar ilk)

/Jim.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

While there has not been a huge number of Protestants in the GAA in recent years there probably were more Unionists than you think.  I can think of one county that was anchored at midfield for many years by a member of the Alliance party.

[ziggysego]

While there has not been a huge number of Protestants in the GAA in recent years there probably were more Unionists than you think.  I can think of one county that was anchored at midfield for many years by a member of the Alliance party.

Surely the Alliance Party is neither Unionist nor Nationalist

[A Quinn Martin Production]

While there has not been a huge number of Protestants in the GAA in recent years there probably were more Unionists than you think.  I can think of one county that was anchored at midfield for many years by a member of the Alliance party.

Surely the Alliance Party is neither Unionist nor Nationalist

Of course, another target market for the GAA to promote the games to!!  We really should be doing more to attract more neithers to the Association.  Croke Park is a cold house for neithers at the minute!!

[T Fearon]

Evil Genius

Perhaps you can set an example here by getting the IFA to jettison the protestant/unionist symbolism at Windsor Park which sustains the negligible Catholic/Nationalist support for the NI team.

This includes getting rid of

The unionist version of the Ulster Flag (both from the official flag pole and from fans)

The English National Anthem

Identifying those who add the words No Surrender to the aforementioned National Anthem

Removing unionist paramilitary members from supporters clubs afiliated to the NI Amalgamation

In other words more and own eye syndrome before you lecture anybody else

As well, don't you think that the Government Buildings at Stormont would look much better without the statue of the unionist paramiltitary gun runner?

[Evil Genius]

Oh yeah, I'd kinda forgotten those! I'd have to say, if Unionists are going to be attracted to GAA in any significant numbers, then it will only be when GAA drops its traditionally Nationalist ethos. As such, the Tricolour and Anthem are integral parts of that ethos.

Frankly, I can't see any way the Unionist identity could also be reflected alongside the Nationalist one at GAA games, nor should it, even were it possible (imo), since I don't like "branding" people, nor mixing politics and sport.

The best solution I've seen is to follow the example of Cricket, which doesn't have any anthems before games and which in the Irish context merely flies the flag of the Irish Cricket Union.

Alternatively, at GAA games it might be workable to fly the respective Provincial Flags of the teams playing, plus perhaps a specially commissioned GAA Flag, if Central Council insisted.

Similarly for anthems, perhaps each province might have its own, non-political song ("Danny Boy" for Ulster?), and the GAA could commission its own equivalent to rugby's "Ireland's Call"?

On reflection, I've no doubt that the prospect of dropping the Soldiers Song and Tricolour will shock, even appall, many otherwise apolitical GAA fans, since they are a cherished part of GAA tradition. But the sky didn't fall in when GSTQ was played for the England Rugby Team at Croke Park a few months back, so I doubt it would scupper GAA entirely to have to select a new song or flag.

Anyhow, at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, such issues merely highlight the choice which is facing the GAA. That is, it may embrace Nationalism, or embrace Unionists, but not both at the same time.

Indeed and I have no doubt that soon over in Windsor Park a neutral anthem will be played with a neutral flag fluttering over it.   I have a lot of doubts that the swarms of nationalists won over by FFA feel comfortable with these trappings.   Of course though their love of their chosen sport means that they put up with and get on with it.  Likewise, so can those of the unionist tradition involved in GAA.

Of course if overtime the number of unionists (or nationalists or whatever) within the GAA decide they don't want the anthem or tricolour at matches then fine it will change.  

However for now I don't see it changing. (just like I don't see the IFA making changes of a similar ilk)

/Jim.

Jim,
I deliberately chose my analogies for GAA from Cricket and Rugby, since these are both all-Ireland sports, which face the problem of reconciling two political entities and traditions within the one island. As such, both sports have been pretty successful (though Rugby is storing up potential problems for the forthcoming international vs Italy at Ravenhill, imo).

Soccer is different, since it is partitioned. Therefore, I have absolutely no problem whatever with the FAI playing the Soldiers Song and flying the Tricolour at their matches - indeed, it is the proper thing to do.

As regards NI, it is a FIFA requirement that each team flies its National flag at international matches. With the NI flag, I can see that it causes difficulties for Nationalists, but what other flag is there? The official flag of NI is actually the Union Flag, but I certainly don't require to see that replacing the present one!
Of course, if the NI government at Stormont were to agree a new flag (and pigs will fly before that happens! ), then I would happily accept that. In the meantime, the only flag I personally bring to Windsor is a Green and White one, in common with the majority of the fans.

As for the Anthem, I have long wanted to see GSTQ replaced by a peculiarly Norn Iron tune, whether specially commissioned, or an existing tune adopted (Danny Boy? - Not sure, or bothered, really).  As such, I am one of a growing number who thinks this way.
In the meantime, I shall continue to do what I do e.g. at Lansdowne Rugby matches when the SS is played: either stand respectfully till it's over (90 seconds?), or use that time to nip to the jacks for a late emptying of the bladder.

(Anyhow, this is a GAA thread; if you want to discuss the situation facing soccer, it would be better either to open a separate thread, or borrow any one of Fatboy Fearon's myriad interventions!)

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Also the soccer stadium shares the same name as the head of state of a country currently engaged in an illegal war...  While we're at it can we get local councils to re-name all the King William Parks and Queen Elizabeth Roads and Schomberg Gardens and Prince Andrew Ways across the North??  O'Connell Street should be renamed The Middle Way

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genius

Perhaps you can set an example here by getting the IFA to jettison the protestant/unionist symbolism at Windsor Park which sustains the negligible Catholic/Nationalist support for the NI team.

This includes getting rid of

The unionist version of the Ulster Flag (both from the official flag pole and from fans)

The English National Anthem

Identifying those who add the words No Surrender to the aforementioned National Anthem

Removing unionist paramilitary members from supporters clubs afiliated to the NI Amalgamation

In other words more and own eye syndrome before you lecture anybody else

As well, don't you think that the Government Buildings at Stormont would look much better without the statue of the unionist paramiltitary gun runner?

And this has exactly what to do with Darren Graham and the GAA?  

[Evil Genius]

Also the soccer stadium shares the same name as the head of state of a country currently engaged in an illegal war...  While we're at it can we get local councils to re-name all the King William Parks and Queen Elizabeth Roads and Schomberg Gardens and Prince Andrew Ways across the North??  O'Connell Street should be renamed The Middle Way

And this has precisely what to do with Darren Graham and the GAA?
 

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Jim,
I deliberately chose my analogies for GAA from Cricket and Rugby, since these are both all-Ireland sports, which face the problem of reconciling two political entities and traditions within the one island. As such, both sports have been pretty successful (though Rugby is storing up potential problems for the forthcoming international vs Italy at Ravenhill, imo).

Soccer is different, since it is partitioned. Therefore, I have absolutely no problem whatever with the FAI playing the Soldiers Song and flying the Tricolour at their matches - indeed, it is the proper thing to do.

As regards NI, it is a FIFA requirement that each team flies its National flag at international matches. With the NI flag, I can see that it causes difficulties for Nationalists, but what other flag is there? The official flag of NI is actually the Union Flag, but I certainly don't require to see that replacing the present one!
Of course, if the NI government at Stormont were to agree a new flag (and pigs will fly before that happens! ), then I would happily accept that. In the meantime, the only flag I personally bring to Windsor is a Green and White one, in common with the majority of the fans.

As for the Anthem, I have long wanted to see GSTQ replaced by a peculiarly Norn Iron tune, whether specially commissioned, or an existing tune adopted (Danny Boy? - Not sure, or bothered, really).  As such, I am one of a growing number who thinks this way.
In the meantime, I shall continue to do what I do e.g. at Lansdowne Rugby matches when the SS is played: either stand respectfully till it's over (90 seconds?), or use that time to nip to the jacks for a late emptying of the bladder.

(Anyhow, this is a GAA thread; if you want to discuss the situation facing soccer, it would be better either to open a separate thread, or borrow any one of Fatboy Fearon's myriad interventions!)

EG,

I am aware that soccer in Ireland is partitioned.  However, my understanding from OWC contributors like yourself is that is a cross-community sport subscribed to by all and sundry.  Hence, I'd expect it to adhere to same standards as any All-Ireland sport.  I am also well aware that this is a GAA thread but mindfulof where you are coming from I use soccer as a frame of reference.

I have no doubt that you (and others) attach less importance to symbols used by your sport but still you see no real prospect of change.  However, you do not see it as insurmountable barrier to those of another tradition.  The put up, show respect, it will over in a minute view of things.  That is what I am advocating in the GAA context.  It may change in time but for now c'est la vie.

I attach little credence to the "FIFA say" excuses proffered by those in the OWC camp.  The world of soccer is full of anchronisms when it comes to national stuff.  Welsh teams in English Leagues, anthems used/not used.  If the will was there to change the Northern Ireland soccer flag and anthem in the interests of community relations, FIFA would not stand in the way.  You and I both know that.

Hence, while I see the anthem and tricolour as an issue, it is far from an insurmountable barrier.  

/Jim.

[blast05]

Until your posts caused me to Google it, I had never even heard of Crossmolina.

But if you are typical of the inhabitants, I won't go out of my way to visit, should I ever be in the area...

Trust me, he is not. Based on the posts on this thread he would be considered an embarrassment

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Also the soccer stadium shares the same name as the head of state of a country currently engaged in an illegal war...  While we're at it can we get local councils to re-name all the King William Parks and Queen Elizabeth Roads and Schomberg Gardens and Prince Andrew Ways across the North??  O'Connell Street should be renamed The Middle Way

And this has precisely what to do with Darren Graham and the GAA?
 

Just widening the stadia naming point a little bit...also this thread is about the aftermath of the Darren Graham affair...you should know, you started it

[Evil Genius]

EG,

I am aware that soccer in Ireland is partitioned.  However, my understanding from OWC contributors like yourself is that is a cross-community sport subscribed to by all and sundry.  Hence, I'd expect it to adhere to same standards as any All-Ireland sport.  I am also well aware that this is a GAA thread but mindfulof where you are coming from I use soccer as a frame of reference.

I have no doubt that you (and others) attach less importance to symbols used by your sport but still you see no real prospect of change.  However, you do not see it as insurmountable barrier to those of another tradition.  The put up, show respect, it will over in a minute view of things.  That is what I am advocating in the GAA context.  It may change in time but for now c'est la vie.

I attach little credence to the "FIFA say" excuses proffered by those in the OWC camp.  The world of soccer is full of anchronisms when it comes to national stuff.  Welsh teams in English Leagues, anthems used/not used.  If the will was there to change the Northern Ireland soccer flag and anthem in the interests of community relations, FIFA would not stand in the way.  You and I both know that.

Hence, while I see the anthem and tricolour as an issue, it is far from an insurmountable barrier.  

/Jim.

Jim,
This is a thread about the GAA, in the context of the Graham affair. The Juice asked me my opinion on the GAA playing the SS and flying the Tricolour at its games and I replied strictly on those lines.

The arrangements for soccer have no place in this discussion, indeed, they serve only to sidetrack this thread down the usual "Yah, Boo, Sucks, Themmuns started it" line. Consequently, I have no desire to see what I think has been an interesting thread degenerate thus.

As I've said before, the GAA must do what the GAA thinks best, irrespective of what other organisations do. So why not leave the "Whataboutery" to the likes of Fearon?

[the Deel Rover]

Until your posts caused me to Google it, I had never even heard of Crossmolina.

But if you are typical of the inhabitants, I won't go out of my way to visit, should I ever be in the area...

Trust me, he is not. Based on the posts on this thread he would be considered an embarrassment

what the fcuk are you on about Blas05 what have i said that has caused you such embarrasment

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Jim,
This is a thread about the GAA, in the context of the Graham affair. The Juice asked me my opinion on the GAA playing the SS and flying the Tricolour at its games and I replied strictly on those lines.

The arrangements for soccer have no place in this discussion, indeed, they serve only to sidetrack this thread down the usual "Yah, Boo, Sucks, Themmuns started it" line. Consequently, I have no desire to see what I think has been an interesting thread degenerate thus.

As I've said before, the GAA must do what the GAA thinks best, irrespective of what other organisations do. So why not leave the "Whataboutery" to the likes of Fearon?

Fine EG,

Play it that way.  However using another example to set the context is far from whataboutery.  The substantive point of my view is that the anthems and flags used by the GAA are an issue yes, an insurmountable one, no.  Someone might feel uncomfortable for about 2 minutes while Amhrán na bhFiann is played but the rest of the time they will be fine.

I could give comparative examples but apparently that would be Fearon'esque whataboutery so I'll let the comment stand as it is.

/Jim.