Free Staters and their hypocrisy on their violent, bloody past

[Snapchap]

It's quite delicious to see all our resident Provos suddenly coming across as the bastard love children of Eoghan Harris and Ruth Dudley Edwards. 

Their self hatred must be off the charts.

They hate the IRA of the war of independence era because they were led and manned by Southerners

And the key point

They Won

They drove the Brits out of their areas

Something they couldn't achieve in the north

They failed. They wanted to free ireland. They didn't

True, they only managed to free 26 of our counties.

[Franko]

The dublin guy's hot take (redner) is typical of the attitudes this thread has so clearly exposed.

A waffler who will drop names like Jean McConville and Paul Quinn like confetti but in reality, hasn't an actual f**king scooby doo.

Politics in the 26 is littered with plenty like him.

[dublin7]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?

Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

I'm not "happy" about any deaths but I regard the PIRA campaign as having been legitimate and the utterly discredited and sectarian RUC were willing protagonists in that conflict and as such were wholly legitimate targets.

You cannot separate the campaign which you describe as "legitimate" and the consequential deaths with which you are not "happy" with.

Should the PIRA have planted the bomb and hoped it didn't go off? Fire the bullet and hope it be blown off course? Kidnap the guy and hope he was Houdini?

So because you think an armed campaign was legitimate, that means you have to be happy about it and enjoy it? By that logic, people can only join armed groups because they like war and death, and not because they believe they are left with no alternative but to take up arms?

Francis Hughes, who died in Hunger Strike 40 years ago yesterday, talking about his involvement in attacks on British forces said "They're just kids. For God's sake, I don't want to be shooting them. I want them to bloody go home in the morning." He was perhaps the most active IRA Volunteer there was and he certaintly wasn't happy with there being a conflict.

I think it's sad that anyone had to lose a life as a result of violence here either in 1921 or 1969. The reality remains though that in each case, Irish republicans becoming involved in conflict was both inevitable and legitimate.

I don't like to hear of anyone being killed, but I'm not naive enough to believe bad things don't happen and innocent people don't get hurt/killed during conflicts such as during the Michael Collins era. It's some leap from that though to the PIRA carrying out a bombing campaign in England in civilian areas to deliberately target ordinary working people. That was a pretty sick and twisted "military strategy" to adopt and in reality it's just terrorism. They couldn't defeat the British (the many informers in their own organisation didn't help) so they adopted the most cowardly approach as possible. I don't see how you can consider that a legitimate campaign

Your careful use of language is revealing. You say the PIRA "targeted" civilians in a "sick and twisted strategy", but that civilians "got hurt or killed" by the Old IRA. They were TARGETED by the Old IRA. In the same, if not higher proportion than they were targeted by the PIRA did. So you're notion that it's "some leap" between targeting civilians in 1921 and targeting them in 1969 is just a symptom of your complete and utter hypocrisy. With your word games like that you could end up writing headlines for the Indo if you're not careful.

The provisonals deliberately targeted and wanted to kill/injure as as innocent people as possible when they planted bombs in places like Canary Wharf. Is that clear enough? If that's not terrorism, what is? Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll be saying no more on this

There's

Is that why they phoned in warnings for those bombs?

You really immune to bombing/killing in the north. A bomb has only one purpose, to detonate and kill/destroy anything in it's area. I'm not aware of any military targets in Canary Wharf. Lots of normal office workers based around there.

Gerry Adams did say the bombing was the fault of the British government so maybe I'm wrong blaming the IRA

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Oh dear 
He has now gone on to dig further and double down on his "the bomb was intended to kill" statement.
Freestaters haven't a notion.

[brokencrossbar1]

The Canary Wharf was a clear attack on the financial centre for London and was purely a commercial target. There were a number of warnings given, the first nearly 2 hours prior to the explosion. This gave the people in the area plenty of time to evacuate. It was clearly done to cause as much disruption to the economic centre of London. There were casualties, including 2 deaths, but the clear focus was financial and economic. It certainly made its point

[dublin7]

It certainly did. John Jeffries was one of the people killed by that bomb. He was known by all the workers who used to buy newspapers off him in the morning on the way into work. He'd always say hello in the morning and was always in a good mood. He was killed instantly in his shop when the bomb went off and is one if the many forgotten victims of republican/Unionists terrorists.

Compare and contrast this with the IRA member Ed O'Brien who was killed when the bomb he was carrying on a bus to blew up prematurely. He has his own song "The Ballad of Ed O'Brien" and had a SF councillor recently promoting an event (subsequently cancelled) commemorating him.

[Itchy]

It certainly did. John Jeffries was one of the people killed by that bomb. He was known by all the workers who used to buy newspapers off him in the morning on the way into work. He'd always say hello in the morning and was always in a good mood. He was killed instantly in his shop when the bomb went off and is one if the many forgotten victims of republican/Unionists terrorists.

Compare and contrast this with the IRA member Ed O'Brien who was killed when the bomb he was carrying on a bus to blew up prematurely. He has his own song "The Ballad of Ed O'Brien" and had a SF councillor recently promoting an event (subsequently cancelled) commemorating him.

Did you know him dublin7, sounds like you did or did you copy paste that out of a newspaper clipping.

[tonto1888]

It certainly did. John Jeffries was one of the people killed by that bomb. He was known by all the workers who used to buy newspapers off him in the morning on the way into work. He'd always say hello in the morning and was always in a good mood. He was killed instantly in his shop when the bomb went off and is one if the many forgotten victims of republican/Unionists terrorists.

Compare and contrast this with the IRA member Ed O'Brien who was killed when the bomb he was carrying on a bus to blew up prematurely. He has his own song "The Ballad of Ed O'Brien" and had a SF councillor recently promoting an event (subsequently cancelled) commemorating him.

Did you know him dublin7, sounds like you did or did you copy paste that out of a newspaper clipping.

He clearly and went and googled the victims

[dublin7]

It certainly did. John Jeffries was one of the people killed by that bomb. He was known by all the workers who used to buy newspapers off him in the morning on the way into work. He'd always say hello in the morning and was always in a good mood. He was killed instantly in his shop when the bomb went off and is one if the many forgotten victims of republican/Unionists terrorists.

Compare and contrast this with the IRA member Ed O'Brien who was killed when the bomb he was carrying on a bus to blew up prematurely. He has his own song "The Ballad of Ed O'Brien" and had a SF councillor recently promoting an event (subsequently cancelled) commemorating him.

Did you know him dublin7, sounds like you did or did you copy paste that out of a newspaper clipping.

My uncle new him when he worked on Canary Wharf and he told me about him. He got me a job in his company interning and he and his fellow workers told me about him when I worked there. There has been a plaque put up to comemerate him and his work colleague who also died (Inan  Bashir), but I haven't seen it.

The sad thing is John Jeffries had Irish roots and he would talk to my uncle about Ireland (if he wasn't too busy) when he'd be buying his morning paper before work

[Angelo]

It certainly did. John Jeffries was one of the people killed by that bomb. He was known by all the workers who used to buy newspapers off him in the morning on the way into work. He'd always say hello in the morning and was always in a good mood. He was killed instantly in his shop when the bomb went off and is one if the many forgotten victims of republican/Unionists terrorists.

Compare and contrast this with the IRA member Ed O'Brien who was killed when the bomb he was carrying on a bus to blew up prematurely. He has his own song "The Ballad of Ed O'Brien" and had a SF councillor recently promoting an event (subsequently cancelled) commemorating him.

Did you know him dublin7, sounds like you did or did you copy paste that out of a newspaper clipping.

My uncle new him when he worked on Canary Wharf and he told me about him. He got me a job in his company interning and he and his fellow workers told me about him when I worked there. There has been a plaque put up to comemerate him and his work colleague who also died (Inan  Bashir), but I haven't seen it.

The sad thing is John Jeffries had Irish roots and he would talk to my uncle about Ireland (if he wasn't too busy) when he'd be buying his morning paper before work

I'll translate that gibberish for you, Itchy.

Did dublin7 know John Jeffries?

No.

[Franko]

It certainly did. John Jeffries was one of the people killed by that bomb. He was known by all the workers who used to buy newspapers off him in the morning on the way into work. He'd always say hello in the morning and was always in a good mood. He was killed instantly in his shop when the bomb went off and is one if the many forgotten victims of republican/Unionists terrorists.

Compare and contrast this with the IRA member Ed O'Brien who was killed when the bomb he was carrying on a bus to blew up prematurely. He has his own song "The Ballad of Ed O'Brien" and had a SF councillor recently promoting an event (subsequently cancelled) commemorating him.

Did you know him dublin7, sounds like you did or did you copy paste that out of a newspaper clipping.

My uncle new him when he worked on Canary Wharf and he told me about him. He got me a job in his company interning and he and his fellow workers told me about him when I worked there. There has been a plaque put up to comemerate him and his work colleague who also died (Inan  Bashir), but I haven't seen it.

The sad thing is John Jeffries had Irish roots and he would talk to my uncle about Ireland (if he wasn't too busy) when he'd be buying his morning paper before work

Yeah, this is a lie.

[Armagh18]

What was the legitimate case for the Provos bearing arms in the 26?
And then using them to murder Gardai, Pte.Kelly, Prison Officer Stack, a Protestant Senator, Tom Oliver, bank robbing, kidnapping etc etc.
What ever happened to Army Order 8?

Didn't the Old IRA also rob banks and Post Offices, and do so on a routine basis?

Was it OK back then?

Your refusal to acknowledge any wrong doing by the IRA is remarkable and admirable in a strange way. Despite everything you're sticking to whataboutery from a century ago as if that somehow makes everything ok

I've never once denied wrongdoing by the IRA. If you can find a quote where I did, please post it up.

I have repeatedly said both the Old IRA and PIRA carried out unjustifiable actions. I have merely pointed out that the Old IRA  killed at least the same, and in all liklihood a higher, proportion of civilians than the PIRA did. How is it "whataboutery" to examine the actions of the Old IRA in a thread specifically about them?

Which PIRA actions were you happy enough about?  The 300+ RUC personnel murdered okay?

I'm not "happy" about any deaths but I regard the PIRA campaign as having been legitimate and the utterly discredited and sectarian RUC were willing protagonists in that conflict and as such were wholly legitimate targets.

You cannot separate the campaign which you describe as "legitimate" and the consequential deaths with which you are not "happy" with.

Should the PIRA have planted the bomb and hoped it didn't go off? Fire the bullet and hope it be blown off course? Kidnap the guy and hope he was Houdini?

So because you think an armed campaign was legitimate, that means you have to be happy about it and enjoy it? By that logic, people can only join armed groups because they like war and death, and not because they believe they are left with no alternative but to take up arms?

Francis Hughes, who died in Hunger Strike 40 years ago yesterday, talking about his involvement in attacks on British forces said "They're just kids. For God's sake, I don't want to be shooting them. I want them to bloody go home in the morning." He was perhaps the most active IRA Volunteer there was and he certaintly wasn't happy with there being a conflict.

I think it's sad that anyone had to lose a life as a result of violence here either in 1921 or 1969. The reality remains though that in each case, Irish republicans becoming involved in conflict was both inevitable and legitimate.

I don't like to hear of anyone being killed, but I'm not naive enough to believe bad things don't happen and innocent people don't get hurt/killed during conflicts such as during the Michael Collins era. It's some leap from that though to the PIRA carrying out a bombing campaign in England in civilian areas to deliberately target ordinary working people. That was a pretty sick and twisted "military strategy" to adopt and in reality it's just terrorism. They couldn't defeat the British (the many informers in their own organisation didn't help) so they adopted the most cowardly approach as possible. I don't see how you can consider that a legitimate campaign

Your careful use of language is revealing. You say the PIRA "targeted" civilians in a "sick and twisted strategy", but that civilians "got hurt or killed" by the Old IRA. They were TARGETED by the Old IRA. In the same, if not higher proportion than they were targeted by the PIRA did. So you're notion that it's "some leap" between targeting civilians in 1921 and targeting them in 1969 is just a symptom of your complete and utter hypocrisy. With your word games like that you could end up writing headlines for the Indo if you're not careful.

The provisonals deliberately targeted and wanted to kill/injure as as innocent people as possible when they planted bombs in places like Canary Wharf. Is that clear enough? If that's not terrorism, what is? Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll be saying no more on this

There's

Is that why they phoned in warnings for those bombs?

You really immune to bombing/killing in the north. A bomb has only one purpose, to detonate and kill/destroy anything in it's area. I'm not aware of any military targets in Canary Wharf. Lots of normal office workers based around there.

Gerry Adams did say the bombing was the fault of the British government so maybe I'm wrong blaming the IRA

If the aim had been to kill, the bomb would have been put in place and then detonated without warning (e.g. Narrow water). The fact the warning call was made means that the target was clearly property not people. Are you seriously so thick as to not get that?

[Main Street]

It is historical fact that the Canary Wharf bombing  effectvely put an end to attempts to scuttle the peace process and and end to ulster Unionist / minority Brit Gov demands that the IRA be de-militarised before peace talks began. The Canary Wharf bomb was in fact a peace bomb.

Dublin 7 is an anti peace processor.

[sid waddell]

If the aim had been to kill, the bomb would have been put in place and then detonated without warning (e.g. Narrow water). The fact the warning call was made means that the target was clearly property not people. Are you seriously so thick as to not get that?

Sure that's exactly what the Israelis say

If you're using their moral justifications maybe you need to get new ones, or better still abandon all pretences at any

[sid waddell]

Acknowledging the victims of the Provos were real people must not be allowed

They must be airbrushed from history

Did you know him dublin7, sounds like you did or did you copy paste that out of a newspaper clipping.

He clearly and went and googled the victims

Yeah, this is a lie.