Dublin v Mayo 2020 All-Ireland final

[seafoid]

Kilkenny phased out a load of great or very good players through the 2000s

DJ
Charlie Carter
Willie O'Connor
Brian McEvoy
Peter Barry
John Power
Denis Byrne
Andy Comerford
John Hoyne
Philip Larkin
Cha Fitzpatrick

Pretty similar to what Dublin have done with:
Flynn
Brogan x 2
Connolly
Bastick
O'Gara
Barry Cahill
Kevin Nolan
Ger Brennan
Bryan Cullen
Rory O'Carroll

Kilkenny brought in some very good players post-2009:
TJ Reid really only established himself after 2009
Same with Richie Hogan
Paul Murphy
Cillian Buckley
Walter Walsh
Colin Fennelly
Padraig Walsh
Kieran Joyce
Conor Fogarty

But good as they were, the whole package was always waning because the players that were leaving were true all time greats and most of the new players weren't quite at that level

In six years' time, how many of the current main men for Dublin will still be there

Probably only Howard and Con

Lads who are good but not as good will likely replace the current main men

It's easier to manufacture footballers. Skill levels are lower.
The Dublin machine can continue indefinitely.

[Rossfan]

Happy Christmas all.
There aren't 1.4m people in Kilkenny.
Limerick with twice KK's population have got their act together.
Cork now that they've pensioned off Frank are into all sorts of 5 year plans which may see them push little KK back further.
However debts on de Páirc and deficits in the last few years may hinder things.....unless Mícheál does a Bertie.....m

[seafoid]

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1185918/
Every county can produce good players but so many are lost on the journey because of flaws in the pathway.

There are very few flaws in the Dublin pathway and that is a credit to their organization and the resources they can pour into it.


Dublin will bring through a higher percentage of their potentially quality players than any other county for that reason and they already have far bigger numbers as a starting point. 

The players still have to do the work but they have an environment around them that makes the sacrifices worth it in the short and long term and a realistic vision of what the rewards may be. 

For those reasons, the county will continue to produce fully developed players perpetually.

That translates into depth and although we are only at the beginning of the return of what is a sustained financial investment, depth of squads was a significant factor in this final.

[sid waddell]

Kilkenny phased out a load of great or very good players through the 2000s

DJ
Charlie Carter
Willie O'Connor
Brian McEvoy
Peter Barry
John Power
Denis Byrne
Andy Comerford
John Hoyne
Philip Larkin
Cha Fitzpatrick

Pretty similar to what Dublin have done with:
Flynn
Brogan x 2
Connolly
Bastick
O'Gara
Barry Cahill
Kevin Nolan
Ger Brennan
Bryan Cullen
Rory O'Carroll

Kilkenny brought in some very good players post-2009:
TJ Reid really only established himself after 2009
Same with Richie Hogan
Paul Murphy
Cillian Buckley
Walter Walsh
Colin Fennelly
Padraig Walsh
Kieran Joyce
Conor Fogarty

But good as they were, the whole package was always waning because the players that were leaving were true all time greats and most of the new players weren't quite at that level

In six years' time, how many of the current main men for Dublin will still be there

Probably only Howard and Con

Lads who are good but not as good will likely replace the current main men

It's easier to manufacture footballers. Skill levels are lower.
The Dublin machine can continue indefinitely.

If skill levels in hurling are more specialised and take longer to perfect than Gaelic football, ie. if skill levels in Gaelic football are lower - and I'd agree they are - then the excuses for the rest start to fall away

[sid waddell]

I don't understand the point of the list of names there. Kilkenny had players who needed replaced. Dublin had players who needed replaced. What does that show? If you'd listed one all time great being replaced by another fair enough but they're just lists of players who played and then needed to be replaced because they stopped? Some of those Dublin players weren't even starters most of the time. I'm not even sure Byrne or Horne always started for Kilkenny?

The pertinent Dublin ones who have been replaced are to me Flynn, two brogans, Connolly and arguably o' Carroll who was a very good full back. (Actually a guy who Dublin based a lot on was O'Sullivan at chb so him too). There is five boys who would grace any team in any era and a boy who you base your defense round replaced seamlessly.

To be fair hogan and Reid replaced top quality with top quality but the likes of Walsh etc just not the same level. To me they replaced DJ with henry(slight overlap) and Henry with tj (again slight overlap).

That is not to forget the Cody factor. The thing that stands out to me as well on Dublin is that I don't think anyone will ever credit Jim gavin with how good he really was because of this dominance. For all the talk of money etc it had to gel together and he made that happen and created a setup which doesn't look it will be undone for a very long time.

(So Dublin had to get their house in order and did very much so but really aren't the same as KK at all imo)

It is a common talking point that Dublin's success from 2011 to 2020 is not generational - that no previous team in GAA history had seamlessly replaced players yet managed to still be dominant

Yet Kilkenny from 2000 to 2009 did the exact same thing - they seamlessly replaced pretty much an entire team while still being dominant

In fact they did it to a greater degree than Dublin have done - Dublin have had a good few more players from 2011 still knocking around the panel in 2020 than Kilkenny had players from 2000 still knocking around in 2009

[seafoid]

I don't understand the point of the list of names there. Kilkenny had players who needed replaced. Dublin had players who needed replaced. What does that show? If you'd listed one all time great being replaced by another fair enough but they're just lists of players who played and then needed to be replaced because they stopped? Some of those Dublin players weren't even starters most of the time. I'm not even sure Byrne or Horne always started for Kilkenny?

The pertinent Dublin ones who have been replaced are to me Flynn, two brogans, Connolly and arguably o' Carroll who was a very good full back. (Actually a guy who Dublin based a lot on was O'Sullivan at chb so him too). There is five boys who would grace any team in any era and a boy who you base your defense round replaced seamlessly.

To be fair hogan and Reid replaced top quality with top quality but the likes of Walsh etc just not the same level. To me they replaced DJ with henry(slight overlap) and Henry with tj (again slight overlap).

That is not to forget the Cody factor. The thing that stands out to me as well on Dublin is that I don't think anyone will ever credit Jim gavin with how good he really was because of this dominance. For all the talk of money etc it had to gel together and he made that happen and created a setup which doesn't look it will be undone for a very long time.

(So Dublin had to get their house in order and did very much so but really aren't the same as KK at all imo)

It is a common talking point that Dublin's success from 2011 to 2020 is not generational - that no previous team in GAA history had seamlessly replaced players yet managed to still be dominant

Yet Kilkenny from 2000 to 2009 did the exact same thing - they seamlessly replaced pretty much an entire team while still being dominant

In fact they did it to a greater degree than Dublin have done - Dublin have had a good few more players from 2011 still knocking around the panel in 2020 than Kilkenny had players from 2000 still knocking around in 2009

Dublin have added a few players every year
They have a much bigger pool.of quality players.
Did Kilkenny ever move all stars into the subs the year after ?

[Halfquarter]

I don't understand the point of the list of names there. Kilkenny had players who needed replaced. Dublin had players who needed replaced. What does that show? If you'd listed one all time great being replaced by another fair enough but they're just lists of players who played and then needed to be replaced because they stopped? Some of those Dublin players weren't even starters most of the time. I'm not even sure Byrne or Horne always started for Kilkenny?

The pertinent Dublin ones who have been replaced are to me Flynn, two brogans, Connolly and arguably o' Carroll who was a very good full back. (Actually a guy who Dublin based a lot on was O'Sullivan at chb so him too). There is five boys who would grace any team in any era and a boy who you base your defense round replaced seamlessly.

To be fair hogan and Reid replaced top quality with top quality but the likes of Walsh etc just not the same level. To me they replaced DJ with henry(slight overlap) and Henry with tj (again slight overlap).

That is not to forget the Cody factor. The thing that stands out to me as well on Dublin is that I don't think anyone will ever credit Jim gavin with how good he really was because of this dominance. For all the talk of money etc it had to gel together and he made that happen and created a setup which doesn't look it will be undone for a very long time.

(So Dublin had to get their house in order and did very much so but really aren't the same as KK at all imo)

It is a common talking point that Dublin's success from 2011 to 2020 is not generational - that no previous team in GAA history had seamlessly replaced players yet managed to still be dominant

Yet Kilkenny from 2000 to 2009 did the exact same thing - they seamlessly replaced pretty much an entire team while still being dominant

In fact they did it to a greater degree than Dublin have done - Dublin have had a good few more players from 2011 still knocking around the panel in 2020 than Kilkenny had players from 2000 still knocking around in 2009

What Kilkenny did was truly exceptional and is rightly admired by everyone .

The advantages they had was their hurling tradition, fierce drive to win, their exceptional  skill levels and of course Brian Cody.

It is a small county , with limited resources and hasn't been bankrolled by GAA headquarters.

Oh, and it doesn't play all it's matches at home.

[imtommygunn]

I can see your point to a degree Sid but I don't think it is the same. E.g. kk couldn't replace hickey so pulled Delaney back, they couldn't replace Delaney, it's debatable whether tyrrel or kavanagh have been replaced. Walsh certainly hasn't. Shefflin too. Reid is superb but can't take a game by the scruff of the neck the way shuffling did imo.

Basically the spine of that kk team imo could not be replaced. They were a lot stronger than any opposition for years and got weaker as every key player dropped off. Dublin aren't batting an eyelid at any key player dropping off. Maybe that will change but they are showing no signs of weakening nine years later. They re in fact getting further away from the pack.

[sid waddell]

I can see your point to a degree Sid but I don't think it is the same. E.g. kk couldn't replace hickey so pulled Delaney back, they couldn't replace Delaney, it's debatable whether tyrrel or kavanagh have been replaced. Walsh certainly hasn't. Shefflin too. Reid is superb but can't take a game by the scruff of the neck the way shuffling did imo.

Basically the spine of that kk team imo could not be replaced. They were a lot stronger than any opposition for years and got weaker as every key player dropped off. Dublin aren't batting an eyelid at any key player dropping off. Maybe that will change but they are showing no signs of weakening nine years later. They re in fact getting further away from the pack.

It's definitely the same

The notion that Dublin are different to Kilkenny rests on the notion they will continue to bring through new players of the calibre of Fenton, McCaffrey, Kilkenny, Mannion, Howard and O'Callaghan - at least four of those six already are or will be top tier all time greats and the other two aren't far behind

They haven't brought through anybody who is near that calibre in 2019 or 2020

Bring a few more players like Davy Byrne, Robbie McDaid and Paddy Small into the Dublin team and you'll soon start to see cracks - these lads are nothing special

Where Dublin do very well is in getting the mid-tier players to excel, the lads who wouldn't be all time greats or near it but make the absolute most of themselves - Fitzsimons, Scully, Rock, John Small, Philly McMahon, McAuley, Paddy Andrews

Dublin are going to lose about 10 key panel members in the next two years - Cluxton, McCarthy, Rock, Fitzsimons, Cooper, McAuley, O'Sullivan, McManamon, Andrews, McMahon

And by then Fenton, Kilkenny, McCaffrey, Small and Mannion will be 30 or thereabouts and probably not as good

If Dublin have brought through six or seven top tier all time greats by 2025 or 26 get back to me, but I bet they won't

[seafoid]

The 12 Days of Dublin footballers at Christmas

12 GAA administrators doing nothing
11 pissed off Leinster counties
10 in a row Leinster
9 times 2 million
8 fans turning away
7 is next year
6 in a row all Ireland
5 matches in Croke Park
4 in a row was the previous limit
3 all star subs
2 - divide Dublin into at least 2
1 They only won 1 in the 90s

[imtommygunn]

I can see your point to a degree Sid but I don't think it is the same. E.g. kk couldn't replace hickey so pulled Delaney back, they couldn't replace Delaney, it's debatable whether tyrrel or kavanagh have been replaced. Walsh certainly hasn't. Shefflin too. Reid is superb but can't take a game by the scruff of the neck the way shuffling did imo.

Basically the spine of that kk team imo could not be replaced. They were a lot stronger than any opposition for years and got weaker as every key player dropped off. Dublin aren't batting an eyelid at any key player dropping off. Maybe that will change but they are showing no signs of weakening nine years later. They re in fact getting further away from the pack.

It's definitely the same

The notion that Dublin are different to Kilkenny rests on the notion they will continue to bring through new players of the calibre of Fenton, McCaffrey, Kilkenny, Mannion, Howard and O'Callaghan - at least four of those six already are or will be top tier all time greats and the other two aren't far behind

They haven't brought through anybody who is near that calibre in 2019 or 2020

Bring a few more players like Davy Byrne, Robbie McDaid and Paddy Small into the Dublin team and you'll soon start to see cracks - these lads are nothing special

Where Dublin do very well is in getting the mid-tier players to excel, the lads who wouldn't be all time greats or near it but make the absolute most of themselves - Fitzsimons, Scully, Rock, John Small, Philly McMahon, McAuley, Paddy Andrews

Dublin are going to lose about 10 key panel members in the next two years - Cluxton, McCarthy, Rock, Fitzsimons, Cooper, McAuley, O'Sullivan, McManamon, Andrews, McMahon

And by then Fenton, Kilkenny, McCaffrey, Small and Mannion will be 30 or thereabouts and probably not as good

If Dublin have brought through six or seven top tier all time greats by 2025 or 26 get back to me, but I bet they won't

Why will they lose rock in the next two years?  The last five there they won't bat an eyelid at. Cooper arguably tougher to replace as they need some needle from somewhere though John small has a good bit in him.

Paddy small no harm to him probably shouldn't be on. Mannion on the bench is much better.

It will be very interesting if losing Cluxton has a significant bearing. McCarthy almost as big a one there to me.

I don't fully agree you are the same as kk and you do not need six or seven all time greats. You have a few all time greats and a significant number of exceptionally high standard players. I would say you could get another six or seven exceptionally high standard of player in six or seven years. Also it can not be overstated how much an advantage your strength and conditioning is giving.

You did not seem to lose anything losing McCaffrey.

The Gavin factor over the next few years is to me the big one. Can Farrell bring change the way he did. I don't know. I think they have a system in place they could. After all while it was boring it was "all about the process".

[sid waddell]

If Dean Rock is still first choice for Dublin in 2023, a year in which he turns 34, you'll know for sure that the players coming through are a cut below - I expect he'll be very peripheral by that stage if he's still involved

Dublin are relying a lot on the 2011/12 generation of minors, who then mostly made up the 2014 under-21s

That 2011 minor team didn't even win the All-Ireland - it was a freak loss - but I knew when I saw them play Kildare in the Leinster semi-final that year that that team would backbone the Dublin senior team for the next decade, they were that good

That generation contained Fenton (who didn't even get his game as a minor in 2011), Kilkenny, McCaffrey, Mannion, Small, Costello, Scully, McDaid, David Byrne, Lowndes, McHugh, O'Conghaile, Shane Carthy

Dublin have not produced a generation remotely like that since, it's one of the great underage generations of players ever, maybe the greatest

Strength and conditioning is catch uppable

[Armagh18]

I can see your point to a degree Sid but I don't think it is the same. E.g. kk couldn't replace hickey so pulled Delaney back, they couldn't replace Delaney, it's debatable whether tyrrel or kavanagh have been replaced. Walsh certainly hasn't. Shefflin too. Reid is superb but can't take a game by the scruff of the neck the way shuffling did imo.

Basically the spine of that kk team imo could not be replaced. They were a lot stronger than any opposition for years and got weaker as every key player dropped off. Dublin aren't batting an eyelid at any key player dropping off. Maybe that will change but they are showing no signs of weakening nine years later. They re in fact getting further away from the pack.

It's definitely the same

The notion that Dublin are different to Kilkenny rests on the notion they will continue to bring through new players of the calibre of Fenton, McCaffrey, Kilkenny, Mannion, Howard and O'Callaghan - at least four of those six already are or will be top tier all time greats and the other two aren't far behind

They haven't brought through anybody who is near that calibre in 2019 or 2020

Bring a few more players like Davy Byrne, Robbie McDaid and Paddy Small into the Dublin team and you'll soon start to see cracks - these lads are nothing special

Where Dublin do very well is in getting the mid-tier players to excel, the lads who wouldn't be all time greats or near it but make the absolute most of themselves - Fitzsimons, Scully, Rock, John Small, Philly McMahon, McAuley, Paddy Andrews

Dublin are going to lose about 10 key panel members in the next two years - Cluxton, McCarthy, Rock, Fitzsimons, Cooper, McAuley, O'Sullivan, McManamon, Andrews, McMahon

And by then Fenton, Kilkenny, McCaffrey, Small and Mannion will be 30 or thereabouts and probably not as good

If Dublin have brought through six or seven top tier all time greats by 2025 or 26 get back to me, but I bet they won't

the only ones Dublin may even miss there are Cluxton, McCarthy and maybe Rock. The rest won't even be noticed or have already been phased out. Given how little they have missed McCaffrey who is one of the best players I've ever seen, they may not even miss those 3.

[seafoid]

If Dean Rock is still first choice for Dublin in 2023, a year in which he turns 34, you'll know for sure that the players coming through are a cut below - I expect he'll be very peripheral by that stage if he's still involved

Dublin are relying a lot on the 2011/12 generation of minors, who then mostly made up the 2014 under-21s

That 2011 minor team didn't even win the All-Ireland - it was a freak loss - but I knew when I saw them play Kildare in the Leinster semi-final that year that that team would backbone the Dublin senior team for the next decade, they were that good

That generation contained Fenton (who didn't even get his game as a minor in 2011), Kilkenny, McCaffrey, Mannion, Small, Costello, Scully, McDaid, David Byrne, Lowndes, McHugh, O'Conghaile, Shane Carthy

Dublin have not produced a generation remotely like that since, it's one of the great underage generations of players ever, maybe the greatest

Strength and conditioning is catch uppable

Kilkenny had nobody who never lost a championship match.
You really want Dublin to be the same as Kilkenny , Sid, because then you could say to yourself that it was within the range of normal exceptional.

You can't admit to yourself that the aim is total domination.

[imtommygunn]

What county wouldn't want total domination seafoid?

Sid I am beginning to not be convinced that the strength and conditioning Dublin have is catch uppable.