Championship structures - the never ending saga?

[Zulu]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm backing you up, this is not an elitist proposal, it is a meritocratic proposal. But I still don't like his comment. Why mention Tipp or Galway at all?

Don't known AZ but until people give some new format a chance and not shoot everyone down because they aren't perfect then we won't move forward. At this stage the football championship is utterly depressing. we've three games left and bar the novelty of Tipp's progression we have hardly had a single notable thing happen.

[AZOffaly]

Clare did well also.  I don't think Duffy's is the worst in the world. I just don't like when people make comments that suggest they like the old guard being at the top table. Just present the proposal and leave it at that. It's obviously something that will reward teams who are playing well, so just leave it at that and never mind hostages to fortune.

[Cunny Funt]

Championship is about finding the best or champion team.


By the way it was Congress changed the under age competitions to u17 and u20 in the interests of player welfare.

When did the current championship format not find the best or champion team. The cream rises to the top and all that.

For 9 years Pauric Duffy tried to scrap U21 competition he finally convinced those in congress with a watered down U20 competition. If in the interests of player welfare then why was the Sigerson cup untouched?

[Rossfan]

Never claimed the current system doesn't find the best team. Was responding to points made about having shocks in a "cup competition".
That sigerson thing should be played before Christmas and Counties only in the FBD etc.

[Beard]

That last one is so contorted and contrived that my head hurts. 3 groups here, 4 groups there, you go that way, now you stand over there, you don't bother. Too many contortions.

The NFL based one prior to it has a fundanental flaw which destroys it: there is no draft system in GAA, so there is absolutely no way to artificially control the quality of county teams. Supporters might put up with the occasional dead rubber but won't put up with a year full of them or several years worth of them. The second flaw is that nobody will care a damn if they win their group, so you can save money and not bother with the trophies for doing so.

The way around the first flaw is for teams to take the second and third tier knock-out competitions, and qualification for same, seriously so there is always something at stake. By my count only 11 counties have won the All-Ireland since 1960 so for, say, 20 odd (not necessarily the same) counties winning the All -Ireland is a totally unrealistic objective. Teams outside the top 12 should be aiming to win a second or third tier competions and look to build. Supporters would also need to buy in to this.

110% accept, however, that there is no appetite for 2nd/3rd comps at the moment so I agree, until this mindset changes it is a fatal flaw.
Something needs to change though, at the moment the entire Leinster Championship is a dead rubber.

Fair enough re the second flaw. Could hand out special rainproof 'division winners' flat caps as an alternative.

[BennyHarp]

If there was promotion and relegation to and from the first, second and maybe third tier then over time teams would have to take it seriously if they ever want to play at a higher level. Playing at that higher level will be a process build upon by a few years of development rather than a one off, maybe flukey, draw. Counties may be forced to put long term strategies in place to get promotion, which may make them more competitive when they get there. It may take a few years to embed but I feel it's the only viable way forward. Would, say for example, Armagh fans not be excited at the prospect of winning an intermediate championship which meant they were back playing senior football the following year?

[Main Street]

The combination of the traditional provincial format and the added on open qualifier draw has worked well.
Since the qualifiers have become embedded,  most every semi finals have been competitively contested by the 4 best teams.
Is that not a criteria of a functioning competition?
The 1/4 finals have been hit or miss, but that's down to a quality gap, not a championship format issue per se.
Reducing the gap between top and bottom  should be one of the priorities and progress in that sphere  (in reducing that gap) is a true sign of achievement/health.
.Changes in the format can be made, but for what purpose? so that a county like Tipp  can't ever turn over one of the fancied teams and make it into the top 4? I think that's an example of seriously defective thinking.

[Rossfan]

Tipp have had a number of good minor and u21 teams from hard work at their underage set ups.
There was always the probability of them coming good.
The semi final will let us know how good or were they just lucky that they got Galway?

[Jinxy]

I think it would be easier for people to get their heads around proposed structures if they were accompanied with multiple simulated outcomes.
Particularly if you're trying to sell them as being beneficial to weaker counties.
Pick 3 counties from each province and use their recent history to simulate how far they might progress, how many games they might play etc.

Lets say from Leinster you took Dublin, Laois and Carlow.
From Munster you took Kerry, Tipperay and Waterford.
From Connacht you took Mayo, Ros and Leitrim.
And from Ulster you took Tyrone, Cavan and Antrim.

Then you have a clearer picture of how the proposed changes will effect the genuine All-Ireland contenders, the mid-ranking teams that are 'competitive' but a good bit off the genuine contenders, and the teams that are likely to go out early under the current system.
Otherwise, it's too difficult to get your head around, particularly in the social media age where it takes far less energy to talk than it does to think.

[6th sam]

i have been an active Gaa member for over 40 years , and have witnessed massive advances during that time. However in recent years , the association seems to be losing it's way. So much so that I think there must be a double agent from the FAI or IRFU operating at headquarters(only half-joking). We seem to be continually be shooting ourselves in the foot. What seperates us from other sports is the strength of our grass roots, our sense of identity: parish, county, country, diaspora. We can't match other sports in terms of global appeal and income generation.
The crisis for our association is not at the higher echelons , it's the increasing marginalisation of the grass roots. We try constantly to mimic other sports, whilst neglecting our strengths.
Surprise , surprise, the Kerry chairman supports the AIFC proposed change, but presumably the Dublin chairman will be crafty enough not to come out in support, for fear it will stir up the culchies into opposing it. Kerry Dublin Cork Tyrone have been in most qfinals over the past 20+ years. Kerry & Dublin particularly, for differing reasons , would be virtually guaranteed to qualify for these groups every year, and can plan accordingly . For ulster counties it'll be far more difficult to have a sustained presence at the top table.
With this proposal the rich get richer, while the masses suffer.
You only have to look at how such elitism has completely undermined hurling in Antrim, Down and Derry.
Let's work on a proposal that gives more football to ALL counties and rewards the weaker counties , within year, eg B championship finalists  re-entering the All Ireland series at a later point.
Let's have clear Intercounty and club blocks of games , to ensure our players get playing games as opposed to constant training.

Ps. How our administrators came up with a system that effectively runs the risk of dead rubber games in August , baffles me. The fact that this proposal coincides with the extra monies for the GPA ( who, by the way have done some excellent work) , concerns me that there may be an inevitable path to professionalism . I think we need to look after and reward ALL county players but recent changes and proposals , seen to be favouring the precious few.  The GAA top table need to be careful what they wish for!

[The Trap]

Great post 6th Sam......how do we halt the slide to professionalism though? And if it goes down that route within 10-20 years there will be about 8-12 GAA franchises as that is all the country could cope with......

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

The slide towards professionalism is inevitable. Laois and Fermanagh (I am led to believe) both had professional players (paid by benefactors) over 10 years ago, sales reps who did not have to make many sales were a common feature in almost all counties at some stage, 100's of players get paid every summer in America leaving their clubs and sometimes counties stranded. Plenty of Kerry players leaving jobs to train full time too.
You could well argue professionalism is here already, just very badly organised and resources distributed in a messy fashion.

[BennyCake]

A first round game 25 years ago is still talked about - Meath v Dublin. Can you remember who your county played in the first round 25 years ago? (It was Down actually, but that's not the point).

Imagine an open draw, Kerry v Dublin in first round. We need the c'ship started by big games like that. And maybe we'll be talking about a first round cracker 25 years later.

Big teams knocking each other out if drawn. And on other side, Sligo, Louth, Longford etc ending up in a final or semi. That's what the c'ship is all about.

[Farrandeelin]

I forsee a total separation of club players and county players in the future. Obviously I hope I'm wrong, as it would be the ruination of club football. Like what happened with the rugby.

In saying that, the saving grace would probably be that the GAA can't afford to go pro, I don't think there would be much appetite for about 10 or 12 franchises.

[Zulu]

Why would the separation of club and county be the ruination of club football?