Ulster IFC and JFC Club Championships 2015

[galwayman]

Question: If Kerry are consistently producing Intermediate and Junior teams that are dining at the top table and this is a symptom of their superior club system rater than a skewed set-up. Why is it that they have struggled to win an AI senior Club for 20 years. If the standard is high it should filter up should it not?

No doubt the club scene is strong in Kerry but it stands to reason if you have only 11 or 12 senior clubs then the next level down is going to have stronger clubs than if you had for example 20 like there are in some counties.
In Galway there are 20 senior and 16 intermediate clubs which is ridiculous.
It has resulted in the junior championship only having a handful of first teams with the remainder made up of club second teams.
Madness.

[Blue Island]

Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.

On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.

Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.

What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.

Even if you ignore the issue about league placings, surely if you actually win the county intermediate championship that would mean promotion to the senior championship. Is it correct that St Marys, who are in the All Ireland intermediate final, are in the draw for the Kerry intermediate championship 2016?

[From the Bunker]

Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.

On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.

Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.

What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.

Even if you ignore the issue about league placings, surely if you actually win the county intermediate championship that would mean promotion to the senior championship. Is it correct that St Marys, who are in the All Ireland intermediate final, are in the draw for the Kerry intermediate championship 2016?

In fairness it won't have any bearing on next years competition. 

[general_lee]

If an intermediate team finishes 2nd in a senior division 1 league (behind Connacht SFC champions and Al club SFC semi finalists), surely it stands to reason that they are of senior standard?

The Kerry set up is all over the place. Any wonder you produce strong Junior teams when they've to bet Division 1 and 2 teams to win it

[DownFanatic]

Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.

On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.

Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.

What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.

1. Lot of posters on here saying that a good few teams in Kerry don't take league football seriously. However, you are obviously of a different opinion.

2. Of course they are two different competitions. My point is that the likes of Glenbeigh-Glencar were JFC last year but yet were playing Division 1 football. Similarly this year Templenoe are going to be IFC but playing against some very strong teams in Division 1. I am re-enforcing the skewed nature of your competitions. This does not happen in the majority of other counties.

3. What is your point here?

4. I disagree.

[westbound]

The whole point of the kerry club system is to give as many club players as possible the opportunity to play senior championship football. This is what increases the standard of players throughout the county.

Now you can call it ''unfair' or whatever you want, but the option is there for every county in the country to set up their club system in whatever way they want.

IMO, the kerry system is one of the best systems at improving the standard of club players throughout the county. Shouldn't that be the aim in every county?

[AZOffaly]

Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.

On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.

Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.

What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.

1. Lot of posters on here saying that a good few teams in Kerry don't take league football seriously. However, you are obviously of a different opinion.

2. Of course they are two different competitions. My point is that the likes of Glenbeigh-Glencar were JFC last year but yet were playing Division 1 football. Similarly this year Templenoe are going to be IFC but playing against some very strong teams in Division 1. I am re-enforcing the skewed nature of your competitions. This does not happen in the majority of other counties.

3. What is your point here?

4. I disagree.

Lads, unless ye put 20 teams in Division 1, and call them all Senior, the reality is no matter how you break it down, there will be good intermediate and Junior Clubs. in Kerry. It's not unfair, and it is the way most counties run their systems too.

When I said Kerry don't take the league seriously, I meant in comparison with the championship. Teams fluctuate wildly in divisions, hence Templenoe up to D1 next year.

Equally, I have personally seen teams 'given the points' in the League down there to help with promotion/relegation, so I don't think that would happen in a championship match!

the one quibble I have is for next year. the Marys *should* be a Senior Club Championship side next year, even if they elect to stay with South Kerry for the County Championship. Other than that, I think it is perfectly fine to run your championship as a completely separate competition, and to base grading on prior championship performance, rather than current league standing.

[DownFanatic]

Templenoe played 2 Kerry senior clubs last year and won both games, including one against the County semi-finalists. They also played 3 Kerry intermediate clubs and won all 3 games including the intermediate All- Ireland finalists, St. Marys who they beat comfortably.

On that basis I think Templenoe deserve to be favourites. However Ardnaree probably didn't get to play Mayo senior and i'mediate clubs and perhaps if they did play Ballina or Crossmolina they might beat them.

Again, in a lot of other league systems in Ireland this would never happen. You can tell me all day long that league isn't important in Kerry but it has to be one of the main barometers and I don't subscribe to this theory that all clubs there don't take league football seriously. Still of the belief that Kerry football is seriously skewed and their massive successes at provincial and All Ireland Club level are more to do with the inadequacies and unevenness of their system rather then them producing outstanding teams at their own respective levels.

What are you on about?
1.The Kerry league is taken very seriously, that's one of the strengths of the whole thing.
2. It is a completely separate competition to championship and teams may be playing Div 1 or 2 football but still be in Junior championship if they can't win that competition.
3. What exactly is skewed about a system that makes every single championship competitive, and I include divisional championships in that. Templenoe were in the Novice (4th tier) championship 3 years ago and Division 5 in the County league which is the bottom. They are from a parish with not even a primary school. 7 or 8 years ago St Marys were in Division 3 and in the Junior championship.
4. The last sentence of your post is utter nonsense.

1. Lot of posters on here saying that a good few teams in Kerry don't take league football seriously. However, you are obviously of a different opinion.

2. Of course they are two different competitions. My point is that the likes of Glenbeigh-Glencar were JFC last year but yet were playing Division 1 football. Similarly this year Templenoe are going to be IFC but playing against some very strong teams in Division 1. I am re-enforcing the skewed nature of your competitions. This does not happen in the majority of other counties.

3. What is your point here?

4. I disagree.

Lads, unless ye put 20 teams in Division 1, and call them all Senior, the reality is no matter how you break it down, there will be good intermediate and Junior Clubs. in Kerry. It's not unfair, and it is the way most counties run their systems too.

When I said Kerry don't take the league seriously, I meant in comparison with the championship. Teams fluctuate wildly in divisions, hence Templenoe up to D1 next year.

Equally, I have personally seen teams 'given the points' in the League down there to help with promotion/relegation, so I don't think that would happen in a championship match!

the one quibble I have is for next year. the Marys *should* be a Senior Club Championship side next year, even if they elect to stay with South Kerry for the County Championship. Other than that, I think it is perfectly fine to run your championship as a completely separate competition, and to base grading on prior championship performance, rather than current league standing.

Suppose I'm coming from my own counties POV where there is a very high correlation between league standing and championship grade. It works well here and it's probably what I'm used to.

[AZOffaly]

I think that's it. I understand what you're saying, and I also understand the sense of that. It certainly makes the league an integral part of the championship proper, which is something I wouldn't mind seeing at county level.

However, I balk at the suggestion that Kerry are doing anything underhanded, or seeking to get an advantage. They are not fixated on winning intermediate and junior club championships. They *are* fixated on winning Senior All Ireland Inter County championships, and that is why their championship is structured as it is to try and raise all standards.

Someone else asked if their system is so great, why are there not a glut of all Ireland club winners. To that I would say, again, they are competitive at that level, but their system is not really designed to create superclubs that dominate, it's more designed that there are many clubs (even in intermediate and junior ranks) who can play at a high level, and raise their respective player standards through a competitive club scene at each level, which incorporates divisional sides at Senior County Championship. A high level of clubs, spread throughout the county, as opposed to a couple of clubs who are exceptional.

[AZOffaly]

For 2016, just for arguments sake, these are the league divisions. Lets ignore the County Championship at Senior Level, and assume that there are only Senior, Intermediate, Junior and Novice Or Junior and Premier Junior.

I think it's reasonable to say that 10-12 teams is the ideal number in a championship. You can run it knockout, with a losers second chance, or you can run it in groups round robin. I don't think it would be in Kerry (or anyone else's) interest to have massive numbers in Senior, as that just dilutes things. As I said, in Offaly we have 8 Senior A clubs. Let's say 12 in Kerry, which happens to be the number in the divisions.

So if you based it on League positions, rather than previous Championship Performance, the Senior Club Championship would have
Dr. Crokes, Austin Stacks, Killarney Legion GAA, Kerins O`Rahilly's, Castleisland Desmonds/Na Deasmúnaigh, Milltown/Castlemaine, Glenbeigh-Glencar, Daingean Uí Chúis, Kilcummin,
Waterville Frank Caseys,  Templenoe, John Mitchel's/Na Mistéallaigh.

Aha says you, there's Templenoe and Glenbeigh straight away. See, they should be Senior Clubs.

But if we look at Division 2, and say this is intermediate, then you have
St Michael's-Foilmore, Finuge, Spa Killarney, Kenmare Shamrocks, Rathmore, St Mary's, Emmetaigh/Listowel Emmets, Glenflesk, Laune Rangers, Currow, Beaufort, An Ghaeltacht

Some big names there including All Ireland Senior Club winners, and current and past Munster and All Ireland Intermediate Club winners.

And even if we continue into division 3, or Junior say, we have
Listry, Annascaul, Brosna, Keel, St Patrick's Blennerville, Ardfert Football Club, Beale, Na Gaeil, Skelligs Rangers G.A.A. Club, Ballymacelligott, Ballydonoghue, Dromid Pearses

There's another list of Munster and All Ireland winners there.

So my point is, even if you align with Leagues, unless you 'force' Kerry to just have big championships at each grade, you are going to have good teams playing in intermediate and junior grades no matter what.

[blanketattack]

Most junior clubs in Kerry are of a high standard and it's little to do with the grading. They have top class facilities, they rarely lose any eligible players to other sports, they train as hard as senior clubs. A few of their players will play with and against top class senior players with the divisional side. They might play against senior or i'mediate players in the league which isn't a priority but also in divisional c'ship which is a priority. Getting to play with and against top class opponents improves standards. Compared this to other countries where a lot of clubs B or C team are playing in the junior c'ship.

Teams from a lower grade beating higher grade teams happens all the time e.g. the c'ship often sees national league teams from 2 divisions down winning, similarly in the FA cup.

[westbound]

I think that's it. I understand what you're saying, and I also understand the sense of that. It certainly makes the league an integral part of the championship proper, which is something I wouldn't mind seeing at county level.

However, I balk at the suggestion that Kerry are doing anything underhanded, or seeking to get an advantage. They are not fixated on winning intermediate and junior club championships. They *are* fixated on winning Senior All Ireland Inter County championships, and that is why their championship is structured as it is to try and raise all standards.

Someone else asked if their system is so great, why are there not a glut of all Ireland club winners. To that I would say, again, they are competitive at that level, but their system is not really designed to create superclubs that dominate, it's more designed that there are many clubs (even in intermediate and junior ranks) who can play at a high level, and raise their respective player standards through a competitive club scene at each level, which incorporates divisional sides at Senior County Championship. A high level of clubs, spread throughout the county, as opposed to a couple of clubs who are exceptional.

This is the best post on the subject!

Well said.

[AZOffaly]

If we look at previous finalists at intermediate and junior all Ireland club level, there's a few names that are, according to league, operating at a lower level now than in the recent past when they won their championships. There are others who would probably be in the same championship again based on current league position.

Kerry Junior All Ireland Finalists
2016 - Templenoe (2016 Division 1)
2015 - Brosna (2016 Division 3)
2013 - Kenmare Shamrocks (2016 Division 2)
2011 - St. Mary's Cahirciveen (2016 Division 1)
2010 - Skellig Rangers (2016 Division 3)
2009 - Duagh (2016 Division 5)

Intermediate
2016 - St. MAry's Cahirciveen (2016 Division 1)
2015 - Ardfert  (2016 Division 3)
2013 - Finuge (2016 Division 2)
2012 - Milltown Castlemaine (2016 Division 1)
2010 - Spa (2016 Division 2)
2009 - Bally Foilmore (2016 Division 2)

[Farrandeelin]

Ardnaree finished 3rd from bottom in the second tier (Div 1B) in Mayo. League and championship separated for quite a while now in Mayo.

[From the Bunker]

The Issue is not where teams finish in their their Divisions. The issue is the small number of Senior teams for such a Large county. This means you have teams seeded to low for their standard? If you have a senior championship with 4 teams less. That's 4 more  really  strong teams in intermediate and in turn 8 stronger teams in Junior? So really the Senoir Championship is Senior. The intermediate Championship is Senior B. And the Junior Championship is Intermediate.