Money is Destroying the Game

[Dinny Breen]

So how much are Dublin's "match day expenses" and how much are everyone else's?

Considering Dublin play at home every Championship game, you'd expect them to be considerably less, wouldn't you? As Fogarty alludes to however you never get a detailed breakdown of expenditure.

Sure it's no wonder we've won 3 All Irelands in the last few years!

That can be simply re-framed as how many All-Irelands would you have won without all your financial and home advantages? Hypothetically if Dublin had to compete on the same budget as Leitrim and play at least 3 championship games away from CP, how many All-Irelands do you think they would have won?

[Croí na hÉireann]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/john-fogarty-how-the-gaa-can-level-the-playing-field-366701.html

Two years ago, outside of Jim Gavin and his selectors, Dublin had 14 backroom team members. That number has wavered little since. It was similar size when the county weren't winning All-Irelands under Paul Caffrey but the point is Dublin are the Texas of Gaelic football: where everything is bigger and often better.

It's known, for example, that they provide match-day expenses for the partners of their players.

Hmmm...

Why do I get the feeling that match-day expenses incorporate more than a complimentary match ticket and a burger and a pint?

Well the way Fogarty wrote it is designed to give you that feeling.
"provide match day meals for championship games" would be less dramatic. Saying they give them expenses could lead the easily led to think the girls get cash to keep the lads happy. Sure it's no wonder we've won 3 All Irelands in the last few years!

So it's just a ticket for the middle of the Hogan and a meal in the Gibson? They have to make their own way back and forth? The odd night over?

[Hound]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/john-fogarty-how-the-gaa-can-level-the-playing-field-366701.html

He spends the first part of the article saying how the draft system helps equalize things in NFL and Aussie Rules, but then dismisses it for GAA (why even bring it up if its an impossibility??, but I suppose he had column inches to fill)

But I'm not sure it is an altogether impossibility.

What if the likes of Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, etc. were told they had to pick a panel for the year one week before the league starts. Let's say 25-28 players over 21, along with any U21s they have. Any player over 21 who doesn't make the panel is free to enter the annual draft, where any of the 10-15 "weaker" counties can enter if they like - and the order is chosen based on some ranking system that someone can come up with.

Would say a Longford or an Offaly be interested in picking up lads that have been overlooked by the Dubs? For example, halfback Darragh Nelson and midfielder Declan O'Mahony are among the better known lads playing really well for Ballyboden at the moment, but highly unlikely to figure for the Dubs. St Vincents have a heap of strong players who can't get a look in.
Players would receive proper expenses, and all such additional costs funded centrally. 

Not sure whether many players would have the appetitie for it. Their clubs would be dead against it, no doubt.

[screenexile]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/john-fogarty-how-the-gaa-can-level-the-playing-field-366701.html

He spends the first part of the article saying how the draft system helps equalize things in NFL and Aussie Rules, but then dismisses it for GAA (why even bring it up if its an impossibility??, but I suppose he had column inches to fill)

But I'm not sure it is an altogether impossibility.

What if the likes of Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, etc. were told they had to pick a panel for the year one week before the league starts. Let's say 25-28 players over 21, along with any U21s they have. Any player over 21 who doesn't make the panel is free to enter the annual draft, where any of the 10-15 "weaker" counties can enter if they like - and the order is chosen based on some ranking system that someone can come up with.

Would say a Longford or an Offaly be interested in picking up lads that have been overlooked by the Dubs? For example, halfback Darragh Nelson and midfielder Declan O'Mahony are among the better known lads playing really well for Ballyboden at the moment, but highly unlikely to figure for the Dubs. St Vincents have a heap of strong players who can't get a look in.
Players would receive proper expenses, and all such additional costs funded centrally. 

Not sure whether many players would have the appetitie for it. Their clubs would be dead against it, no doubt.

That's a professional system I can't see that working. Would those lads want to ply their trade for a Longford or Offaly and all the travel etc. unless they were getting paid? I can't see it!! I agree with you his point about the draft isn't really a point unless we have free movement of players in a professional system.

The other point about the GAA centrally negotiating contracts for jerseys/sponsorship etc. is slightly more relevant but doesn't make sense either I don't think. Dublin and other countries are still going to have their high performance centres etc. Then you how do you police the extra funding Dublin and other Counties like Donegal/Kerry/Mayo get that's not included in official accounts?

It's admirable to try and think of ways to even up the score for the weaker counties but the article is just that... weak! It wouldn't surprise me if the Dub WAGs get a few bob following the lads around but the point is a bit useless and hyperbolic without any back up for it and just gives the Dubs another case to say the media are picking on them!!!

[From the Bunker]

But I'm not sure it is an altogether impossibility.
What if the likes of Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, etc. were told they had to pick a panel for the year one week before the league starts. Let's say 25-28 players over 21, along with any U21s they have. Any player over 21 who doesn't make the panel is free to enter the annual draft, where any of the 10-15 "weaker" counties can enter if they like - and the order is chosen based on some ranking system that someone can come up with.

Two problems with this:

1. There are a lot of good to great players who will not give the commitment to a weaker county. Why would a under 21 from a stronger county give his time?

2. Players who give their time to a weaker county are getting inter-county experience. They may improve and go back to the stronger county. Meanwhile the weaker county have blooded a player for a strong county and lost time in developing a player of their own.

[manfromdelmonte]

Not enough money is ruining the game in a lot of counties

Rural counties need coaching and development plans, full time GDAs on the ground promoting the games (ALL GAMES!) in schools and clubs across each county, more developmental style games for U8 - U13, more coaching courses and workshops for aspiring coaches.

Too much money being wasted on county teams, expensive managers for very little return and blown on centres of excellence and white elephant stadiums

[Hound]

But I'm not sure it is an altogether impossibility.
What if the likes of Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, etc. were told they had to pick a panel for the year one week before the league starts. Let's say 25-28 players over 21, along with any U21s they have. Any player over 21 who doesn't make the panel is free to enter the annual draft, where any of the 10-15 "weaker" counties can enter if they like - and the order is chosen based on some ranking system that someone can come up with.

Two problems with this:

1. There are a lot of good to great players who will not give the commitment to a weaker county. Why would a under 21 from a stronger county give his time?

2. Players who give their time to a weaker county are getting inter-county experience. They may improve and go back to the stronger county.

3. Meanwhile the weaker county have blooded a player for a strong county and lost time in developing a player of their own.

1. As I'd said, only players aged over 21 would be eligible. Whether they'd like to give it a go would be up to themselves. I'm sure there'd be a few takers.

2. That's the whole idea. Its a carrott for the player, in that he might impress his home county and get onto that panel next year, and in the meantime hopefully do well for his adopted county. Just because its not his home county doesn't mean he won't give it 100%. In every other sport players play for teams they have no personal link to, although of course we don't want to go for an completely open transfer system.

3. For the weaker county, they are losing nothing. Developing their own players clearly hasn't been working well enough, they always seem a few players short. So maybe 3 imports in any one year alongside 12 homegrown players (plus subs) would help them all improve.

Just an idea. The losers, if such a plan did take hold, would be the clubs in the bigger counties who lose additional players for some club matches.

[Ball Hopper]

1. As I'd said, only players aged over 21 would be eligible. Whether they'd like to give it a go would be up to themselves. I'm sure there'd be a few takers.

2. That's the whole idea. Its a carrott for the player, in that he might impress his home county and get onto that panel next year, and in the meantime hopefully do well for his adopted county. Just because its not his home county doesn't mean he won't give it 100%. In every other sport players play for teams they have no personal link to, although of course we don't want to go for an completely open transfer system.

3. For the weaker county, they are losing nothing. Developing their own players clearly hasn't been working well enough, they always seem a few players short. So maybe 3 imports in any one year alongside 12 homegrown players (plus subs) would help them all improve.

Just an idea. The losers, if such a plan did take hold, would be the clubs in the bigger counties who lose additional players for some club matches.

Kerry hurlers did this for the last two years.  Had players from Tipperary and Clare.  Finally got promoted to Div 1B for 2016, but cannot use imported players in that division.  The last point about clubs losing a player was one of the conditions - if a conflict of fixtures arose, the player must play for his club.  One import was lost on that rule for the final playoff game to go up (versus Antrim, I think).

It will be interesting to see how they get on in Div 1B with only home talent.

[AZOffaly]

1. As I'd said, only players aged over 21 would be eligible. Whether they'd like to give it a go would be up to themselves. I'm sure there'd be a few takers.

2. That's the whole idea. Its a carrott for the player, in that he might impress his home county and get onto that panel next year, and in the meantime hopefully do well for his adopted county. Just because its not his home county doesn't mean he won't give it 100%. In every other sport players play for teams they have no personal link to, although of course we don't want to go for an completely open transfer system.

3. For the weaker county, they are losing nothing. Developing their own players clearly hasn't been working well enough, they always seem a few players short. So maybe 3 imports in any one year alongside 12 homegrown players (plus subs) would help them all improve.

Just an idea. The losers, if such a plan did take hold, would be the clubs in the bigger counties who lose additional players for some club matches.

Kerry hurlers did this for the last two years.  Had players from Tipperary and Clare.  Finally got promoted to Div 1B for 2016, but cannot use imported players in that division.  The last point about clubs losing a player was one of the conditions - if a conflict of fixtures arose, the player must play for his club.  One import was lost on that rule for the final playoff game to go up (versus Antrim, I think).

It will be interesting to see how they get on in Div 1B with only home talent.

I don't think that was a rule, per se, I think it was up to the player. It's a lad from Tipp hurling with Kerry I think you're referring to. 

[heffo]

So how much are Dublin's "match day expenses" and how much are everyone else's?

Considering Dublin play at home every Championship game, you'd expect them to be considerably less, wouldn't you? As Fogarty alludes to however you never get a detailed breakdown of expenditure.

Sure it's no wonder we've won 3 All Irelands in the last few years!

That can be simply re-framed as how many All-Irelands would you have won without all your financial and home advantages? Hypothetically if Dublin had to compete on the same budget as Leitrim and play at least 3 championship games away from CP, how many All-Irelands do you think they would have won?

Playing in a regional ground in early Leinster would have made no difference.

Regarding the Financial argument you keep making, Kildare had the most expensive setup in the country under McGeeney and couldn't win a raffle, so you draw your own conclusions.

[johnneycool]

1. As I'd said, only players aged over 21 would be eligible. Whether they'd like to give it a go would be up to themselves. I'm sure there'd be a few takers.

2. That's the whole idea. Its a carrott for the player, in that he might impress his home county and get onto that panel next year, and in the meantime hopefully do well for his adopted county. Just because its not his home county doesn't mean he won't give it 100%. In every other sport players play for teams they have no personal link to, although of course we don't want to go for an completely open transfer system.

3. For the weaker county, they are losing nothing. Developing their own players clearly hasn't been working well enough, they always seem a few players short. So maybe 3 imports in any one year alongside 12 homegrown players (plus subs) would help them all improve.

Just an idea. The losers, if such a plan did take hold, would be the clubs in the bigger counties who lose additional players for some club matches.

Kerry hurlers did this for the last two years.  Had players from Tipperary and Clare.  Finally got promoted to Div 1B for 2016, but cannot use imported players in that division.  The last point about clubs losing a player was one of the conditions - if a conflict of fixtures arose, the player must play for his club.  One import was lost on that rule for the final playoff game to go up (versus Antrim, I think).

It will be interesting to see how they get on in Div 1B with only home talent.

I don't think that was a rule, per se, I think it was up to the player. It's a lad from Tipp hurling with Kerry I think you're referring to.

Kerry had a Clare lad and two Tipp lads, all who played their club hurling with their respective home clubs, not sure of the long term benefits of such rulings as they're now in Div1B without them, but sure they'll give it their best!

[westbound]

Heffo, I don't think anyone thinks that taking dublin out of croke park for the early round leinster championship matches will result in dublin losing any of those games. Dublin are too far ahead of the rest of leinster for that.

Where it could make a difference is in say an all ireland quarter final where dublin could be playing their 8th match in croke park in the year but are up against donegal (or tyrone/kerry/cork/mayo etc.) who are playing their first match there in the year. The little nuances of playing in familiar surroundings can make a big difference in a tight match.

I don't think anyone would suggest that it would turn around a 10 point margin!

And by the way, I actually think that if croke park is the only stadium big enough to take the crowd that want to go to a particular game then that's where it should be. I have no problem with dublin playing ALL their matches in Croke park, I think it is just one of those natural advantages that Dublin gain by being our capital city (and home of GAA HQ)

But don't go pretending that playing all of your matches in the same pitch is no advantage!

[Ball Hopper]

1. As I'd said, only players aged over 21 would be eligible. Whether they'd like to give it a go would be up to themselves. I'm sure there'd be a few takers.

2. That's the whole idea. Its a carrott for the player, in that he might impress his home county and get onto that panel next year, and in the meantime hopefully do well for his adopted county. Just because its not his home county doesn't mean he won't give it 100%. In every other sport players play for teams they have no personal link to, although of course we don't want to go for an completely open transfer system.

3. For the weaker county, they are losing nothing. Developing their own players clearly hasn't been working well enough, they always seem a few players short. So maybe 3 imports in any one year alongside 12 homegrown players (plus subs) would help them all improve.

Just an idea. The losers, if such a plan did take hold, would be the clubs in the bigger counties who lose additional players for some club matches.

Kerry hurlers did this for the last two years.  Had players from Tipperary and Clare.  Finally got promoted to Div 1B for 2016, but cannot use imported players in that division.  The last point about clubs losing a player was one of the conditions - if a conflict of fixtures arose, the player must play for his club.  One import was lost on that rule for the final playoff game to go up (versus Antrim, I think).

It will be interesting to see how they get on in Div 1B with only home talent.

I don't think that was a rule, per se, I think it was up to the player. It's a lad from Tipp hurling with Kerry I think you're referring to.

It was James Logue from Tipperary senior club Ballingarry, who had a championship game against Boherlahan-Dualla in Cashel the same day as Kerry played Antrim in the playoff for Div 1B status.

Logue qualified for Kerry under rule 6.9 of the GAA Official Guide ("special eligibility provisions for hurling"). The rule also states in the event of a clash of championship fixtures between club and adopted county, the player shall line out with his club.

As Kerry v Antrim was a league game, it may be determined that the rule doesn't apply. However, technically Logue was expected to chose Ballingarry under the legal definition "expressio unius est exclusio alterius" (to express one thing is to exclude another).

The interpretation could be that as league is a lesser competition than championship, Logue was compelled to play in the latter competition.

What do you think of that for an explanation?

[AZOffaly]

Yeah, that makes sense. Excellently explained

[Dinny Breen]

Excellent apart from messing up the quotes.