Proposals to change the All Ireland Football structures

[smelmoth]

I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed

OK - well I am. Supposing they get injured and are out for the season because they played in some totally unremarkable game in January in a swamp.

That would be unlucky or you might argue bad management but not a motivation to reorganise the game.

[Esmarelda]

Why complain about the amount of IC games and the impact on club games but then support a format that means two thirds of those IC games are pointless mismatches? Get rid of games like Limerick v Kerry or Dublin v Carlow and replace them with Dublin v Kerry and Limerick v Carlow, have games played every two weeks (max) and give everyone a chance to win Sam but via the same, clear pathway.

They are no pointless games in the current championship. That's what makes it the best option available. Every game is knockout, every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province. Then every team has one chance to win the All Ireland. Brilliant system.

Would be even better if there were 8 counties in each province, but there aren't any counties in Ulster or Leinster who will voluntarily move to Munster/Connacht, so it is what it is.

The Limericks and Carlows want to play the Dublins and Kerrys. Its good meaning but misguided neutrals who don't like it. If we could get 8 (or more) counties to volunteer to go into a Tommy Murphy/Junior/Intermediate/B championship, then great, we could look at an alternative 2 tier championship with 1 team promoted and 1 team relegated each year (similar to a well run county championship system). But we don't have 8 counties who want to play in a lower tier, so its a pointless argument.

I think you have a point. Some of the new proposals have merit but if we're to take the GPA at its word then there is no way a secondary competition can be enforced.

If we just tightened up the current system to be played over a shorter time then I'd be happy with the way things are.

[Zulu]

Why complain about the amount of IC games and the impact on club games but then support a format that means two thirds of those IC games are pointless mismatches? Get rid of games like Limerick v Kerry or Dublin v Carlow and replace them with Dublin v Kerry and Limerick v Carlow, have games played every two weeks (max) and give everyone a chance to win Sam but via the same, clear pathway.

They are no pointless games in the current championship. That's what makes it the best option available. Every game is knockout, every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province. Then every team has one chance to win the All Ireland. Brilliant system.

Would be even better if there were 8 counties in each province, but there aren't any counties in Ulster or Leinster who will voluntarily move to Munster/Connacht, so it is what it is.

The Limericks and Carlows want to play the Dublins and Kerrys. Its good meaning but misguided neutrals who don't like it. If we could get 8 (or more) counties to volunteer to go into a Tommy Murphy/Junior/Intermediate/B championship, then great, we could look at an alternative 2 tier championship with 1 team promoted and 1 team relegated each year (similar to a well run county championship system). But we don't have 8 counties who want to play in a lower tier, so its a pointless argument.

It's far from a pointless discussion. There are however, loads of pointless games in the championship. Carlow against Dublin is a pointless game as the result is never in doubt and the game itself offers neither county much. It's fanciful to say "every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province", when they clearly don't. Do you seriously think a system is brilliant when a great team like Dublin can get to QF stage without playing a single division 1 team?

If the championship was the secondary competition then Carlow v Dublin would be fair enough for a once off shot at an upset etc. but it isn't fair on either team as a main competition. Carlow don't want to play Dublin and Limerick usually don't want to play Kerry and to argue otherwise is nonsense. Sure they might like a shot at them once but I've never met a footballer who generally didn't prefer to play teams they had a chance of beating. The current system means the top counties sleep walk their way to the QF's, the weakest teams have absolutely nothing to play for and the middle teams plod along hoping for a decent run every so often. So two thirds of the teams have little or no chance of success and the rest dander towards a QF before getting serious. A whole year of activity to get, maybe, 3 rounds of decent games and all the while the club scene is put on hold for this farce - brilliant system indeed.

[Hound]

It's far from a pointless discussion. There are however, loads of pointless games in the championship. Carlow against Dublin is a pointless game as the result is never in doubt and the game itself offers neither county much. It's fanciful to say "every game means something. Every team has one chance to win their province", when they clearly don't. Do you seriously think a system is brilliant when a great team like Dublin can get to QF stage without playing a single division 1 team?

It'sa temporary glitch that neither Meath nor Kildare are in the top 8 in the country. But the current system means that more often than not, the best 8 teams in the country get into the quarter-finals. 

If the championship was the secondary competition then Carlow v Dublin would be fair enough for a once off shot at an upset etc. but it isn't fair on either team as a main competition. Carlow don't want to play Dublin and Limerick usually don't want to play Kerry and to argue otherwise is nonsense. Sure they might like a shot at them once but I've never met a footballer who generally didn't prefer to play teams they had a chance of beating. The current system means the top counties sleep walk their way to the QF's, the weakest teams have absolutely nothing to play for and the middle teams plod along hoping for a decent run every so often. So two thirds of the teams have little or no chance of success and the rest dander towards a QF before getting serious. A whole year of activity to get, maybe, 3 rounds of decent games and all the while the club scene is put on hold for this farce - brilliant system indeed.

Carlow want the Sam Maguire to be their main competition!
I think you are missing that major point.

If you can get 8 counties (I think you'd probably need that to have a decent alternative competition) to opt out of Sam Maguire and into a secondary competition, then you'd definitely have a point. But until weaker counties want a secondary competition, its utterly pointless to think about introducing one as an alternative.

[Zulu]

Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.

[Nihilist]

I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed

OK - well I am. Supposing they get injured and are out for the season because they played in some totally unremarkable game in January in a swamp.

That would be unlucky or you might argue bad management but not a motivation to reorganise the game.

I never mentioned about re-organising the FBD.
What I said was that seasoned inter county performers should not be playing in these competitions. Can you point out one thing that management expect to learn from the likes of Cafferkey, Boyle, McLoughlin, Doherty, Parsons and more, that they haven't already seen or won't see later on in the season when pitches are in better shape? 

[smelmoth]

I'm not too worried about them playing in those games. The majority of player do not over-play. They over-train. Its the latter that needs addressed

OK - well I am. Supposing they get injured and are out for the season because they played in some totally unremarkable game in January in a swamp.

That would be unlucky or you might argue bad management but not a motivation to reorganise the game.

I never mentioned about re-organising the FBD.
What I said was that seasoned inter county performers should not be playing in these competitions. Can you point out one thing that management expect to learn from the likes of Cafferkey, Boyle, McLoughlin, Doherty, Parsons and more, that they haven't already seen or won't see later on in the season when pitches are in better shape?

For the players themselves: A pre-league run out
For the players around them: A chance to get a run out in a strongish selection

[blewuporstuffed]

Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.

good post Zulu.
That sums up a lot of what is wrong with current structures

[twohands!!!]

44% of those asked to join up with the Longford squad declined the offer.

http://www.balls.ie/gaa/longford-dilemma-points-to-a-very-worrying-trend-in-gaelic-football/320782?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

[Catch and Kick]

Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.

good post Zulu.
That sums up a lot of what is wrong with current structures

Isn't that the Carlow proposal; to seed the Championship which gives them realistic chance of a win or maybe two? I would think the league is the priority for all the Division 4 counties. They are more aware of the realities than any of us.

I am afraid the GAA is heading down a bad route and is going to follow the rugby template. There will be 10/12 top counties, paid, there will be no interest by the rest in a secondary competition. Maybe it will all work out for the better in the end - if it means that those counties are only concerned about quality club championships played in the summer months. They would sae a lot of money and effort if that was so - and have a much healthier domestic competition !

[Nihilist]

Isn't that the Carlow proposal; to seed the Championship which gives them realistic chance of a win or maybe two? I would think the league is the priority for all the Division 4 counties. They are more aware of the realities than any of us.

I am afraid the GAA is heading down a bad route and is going to follow the rugby template. There will be 10/12 top counties, paid, there will be no interest by the rest in a secondary competition. Maybe it will all work out for the better in the end - if it means that those counties are only concerned about quality club championships played in the summer months. They would sae a lot of money and effort if that was so - and have a much healthier domestic competition !

Quite possible. Problem with this then of course is when a good player emerges from a weaker county  who no longer participates in the championship. Would end up with those guys going off to stronger counties to get paid and thus abandoning their own clubs. GAA would definitely be on the way out then.

[Nihilist]

Any thoughts on my previous post of just re-structuring the League to allow weaker counties play stronger ones earlier on and get a taste for it ?

[Hound]

Any thoughts on my previous post of just re-structuring the League to allow weaker counties play stronger ones earlier on and get a taste for it ?

Terrible idea. We need to be increasing the value of the league, not devaluing it.

Of all the ideas trialled for the league over the years the current one is the best as you play teams your own level, and if you want to play better teams, you have to earn it.

If I was to make one change I'd do away with the Div2, 3, 4 finals and bring back quarter-finals. This would go partially towards your idea in that the winners of Div 3 and 4 would get to play in the quarter-finals along with the top 2 in Div 2 and the top 4 in Div 1.

[Hound]

Sorry Hound and maybe I wasn't clear but I'm not suggesting Carlow can't compete for Sam. You're right they do want to play for it so we should allow them do it, however there are numerous better formats where they can do this - seeding teams from the leagues for example. At the moment Carlow get to play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship they've no chance of winning and an All Ireland series they've less chance of winning. Meanwhile Dublin play in a league which starts early in the season and is not taken overly seriously, a provincial championship with hardly any competition and an All Ireland series they only have to tune in for the last three games. So basically neither our strongest or weakest teams get much of a season. How anyone thinks that's good for the GAA is beyond me.

As a Dublin fan I really enjoy the current system. The league has 7 entertaining games. Teams aren't as well prepared and there's always a few new lads getting a chance, but once they cross the line, both teams go at it. Nobody wants to be relegated and most want to make the semis.

The Leinster championship has been dull in recent years, but I firmly believe that it's cyclical and Kildare and Meath will both be Top 8 again within a few years and will give us competitive games (Meath were a very debatable penalty away from beating Tyrone this year).

As mentioned Carlow want to play in Leinster and want to play in the All Ireland, so I don't see how you go about giving them more meaningful championship games.

The fact is there is already seeding in the current system to give Carlow some chance of winning a game. Leinster first round has the wekaest teams in Leinster in it (as previous years semi-finalists have a bye into the QF), so Carlow don't get thrown in against Dublin at the outset. Similary the losers of the first round can only meet other first round losers in the All Ireland series. Again, a potentially winnable game for any team - an Ulster team would be a hard draw, but there have been many many examples of so-called weak Leinster counties beating Ulster teams in the first couple of rounds of the All Ireland series.

[Zulu]

Any thoughts on my previous post of just re-structuring the League to allow weaker counties play stronger ones earlier on and get a taste for it ?

Terrible idea. We need to be increasing the value of the league, not devaluing it.

Of all the ideas trialled for the league over the years the current one is the best as you play teams your own level, and if you want to play better teams, you have to earn it.

If I was to make one change I'd do away with the Div2, 3, 4 finals and bring back quarter-finals. This would go partially towards your idea in that the winners of Div 3 and 4 would get to play in the quarter-finals along with the top 2 in Div 2 and the top 4 in Div 1.

Agree Hound, the league needs to be taken more seriously, not less. You don't get better by playing teams way stronger than you anyway.