prods in the 26

[Milltown Row2]

I suspect they would want to considered as Irish as Robbie in the sense of being from and belonging to the island of Ireland, regardless of whether they feel an allegiance to a parliament in Dublin or London. Too many posters on this board would still be of the opinion that Ulster prods are 'invaders' or 'immigrants'. Ridiculous view, imo.

As far as unionists are concerned, The North is part of the UK/Britain. I wouldn't imagine they would recognise themselves as being in any way similar to someone from the the South. They have a Btitish identity, so being on the same island means diddly squat to them. In the same way, folk in Gibraltar are in the same country/area as Spain, but they don't consider themselves as Spanish.

They are similar to someone from the south in that they belong to the same island. The fact that they believe that their part of the island should have a political connection with Britain is a political view. You, and people who share your view, seem to think that this political opinion somehow disqualifies them from being considered properly Irish (i.e belonging to or from the island of Ireland). I disagree. Politics, religion, sporting preferences, etc, shouldn't come in to it.

Shouldn't, but it does. That's the reality.

I'm not the one saying Northern Protestants aren't Irish. They say it themselves.

Do you know any Prods personally? And if you do, do they know your views?

[deiseach]

we could snipe away for 6 months at this. what do we I know about prods in the 26? its all hearsay and comparisons with nordie land not really much point..

Fixed that for you.
I think myself and Deiseach might know a little biteen about some of them anyway.

are you sure you don't actually live in the film 'the quiet man' take a quick look around. is john wayne spanking Maureen ohara again for being bold?
you point to two isolated examples of 1. carol singing in Waterford at xmas and 2. people of dubious parentage who married prods and 'ass' ume that its a done deal. when in fact if your looking for examples of trouble in the 26 you need look no further than this years football season to see problems between gaelic players in relation to religion.
graham Norton 'IS' a 26 prod and a highly paid tv/radio presenter and he has written and talked about this feeling of isolation and loneliness as a prod being brought up in west cork. 'HE' has described 26 county Ireland as an unwelcoming place for prods in the british press.. I obviously need to let him know about your 'sort of' relations and deiseachs carol service and tell him hes got it all wrong.. for nearly 35 years

The reason I mentioned the civic carol service was to demonstrate how central an act of Protesant worship - nine lessons and carols - was to the life of the city, but for you it seems to be a symbol of division because . . .well, I don't know. You've already made up your mind in your original questions about the position of Prods in the 26 counties based on the viewpont of a man who has decided (not that we can be sure,  you have chosen not to link to what he said) that his sense of isolation was to do with being Protestant, despite coming from a part of the world which gave us the saying "where even the pigs are Protestants", and had nothing to do with being gay. And again I ask, if you have already decided that such an unreliable witness trumps the viewpoint of everyone else, what was this thread all about?

[Myles Na G.]

I suspect they would want to considered as Irish as Robbie in the sense of being from and belonging to the island of Ireland, regardless of whether they feel an allegiance to a parliament in Dublin or London. Too many posters on this board would still be of the opinion that Ulster prods are 'invaders' or 'immigrants'. Ridiculous view, imo.

As far as unionists are concerned, The North is part of the UK/Britain. I wouldn't imagine they would recognise themselves as being in any way similar to someone from the the South. They have a Btitish identity, so being on the same island means diddly squat to them. In the same way, folk in Gibraltar are in the same country/area as Spain, but they don't consider themselves as Spanish.

They are similar to someone from the south in that they belong to the same island. The fact that they believe that their part of the island should have a political connection with Britain is a political view. You, and people who share your view, seem to think that this political opinion somehow disqualifies them from being considered properly Irish (i.e belonging to or from the island of Ireland). I disagree. Politics, religion, sporting preferences, etc, shouldn't come in to it.

Shouldn't, but it does. That's the reality.

I'm not the one saying Northern Protestants aren't Irish. They say it themselves.

When they say it themselves, they are rejecting the notion that being Irish means being Catholic and gaelic and holding a belief in a 32 county independent state; that seems to be only type of Irish offered to them as 'genuine'.

[trueblue1234]

I suspect they would want to considered as Irish as Robbie in the sense of being from and belonging to the island of Ireland, regardless of whether they feel an allegiance to a parliament in Dublin or London. Too many posters on this board would still be of the opinion that Ulster prods are 'invaders' or 'immigrants'. Ridiculous view, imo.

As far as unionists are concerned, The North is part of the UK/Britain. I wouldn't imagine they would recognise themselves as being in any way similar to someone from the the South. They have a Btitish identity, so being on the same island means diddly squat to them. In the same way, folk in Gibraltar are in the same country/area as Spain, but they don't consider themselves as Spanish.

They are similar to someone from the south in that they belong to the same island. The fact that they believe that their part of the island should have a political connection with Britain is a political view. You, and people who share your view, seem to think that this political opinion somehow disqualifies them from being considered properly Irish (i.e belonging to or from the island of Ireland). I disagree. Politics, religion, sporting preferences, etc, shouldn't come in to it.

Shouldn't, but it does. That's the reality.

I'm not the one saying Northern Protestants aren't Irish. They say it themselves.

When they say it themselves, they are rejecting the notion that being Irish means being Catholic and gaelic and holding a belief in a 32 county independent state; that seems to be only type of Irish offered to them as 'genuine'.

How do you know this and feel you can speak for them?

[Myles Na G.]

I suspect they would want to considered as Irish as Robbie in the sense of being from and belonging to the island of Ireland, regardless of whether they feel an allegiance to a parliament in Dublin or London. Too many posters on this board would still be of the opinion that Ulster prods are 'invaders' or 'immigrants'. Ridiculous view, imo.

As far as unionists are concerned, The North is part of the UK/Britain. I wouldn't imagine they would recognise themselves as being in any way similar to someone from the the South. They have a Btitish identity, so being on the same island means diddly squat to them. In the same way, folk in Gibraltar are in the same country/area as Spain, but they don't consider themselves as Spanish.

They are similar to someone from the south in that they belong to the same island. The fact that they believe that their part of the island should have a political connection with Britain is a political view. You, and people who share your view, seem to think that this political opinion somehow disqualifies them from being considered properly Irish (i.e belonging to or from the island of Ireland). I disagree. Politics, religion, sporting preferences, etc, shouldn't come in to it.

Shouldn't, but it does. That's the reality.

I'm not the one saying Northern Protestants aren't Irish. They say it themselves.

When they say it themselves, they are rejecting the notion that being Irish means being Catholic and gaelic and holding a belief in a 32 county independent state; that seems to be only type of Irish offered to them as 'genuine'.

How do you know this and feel you can speak for them?

I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone. I'm expressing a personal opinion, but it's one based on conversations with my wife of 15 years, my in laws, and a few good friends, all of whom are proud to be from the Ulster protestant-Ulster British tradition.

[LeoMc]

It appears that on one hand you are arguing that you should be allowed to be Irish in NI but on the other hand when it comes to a United Ireland that Unionists should just put up with having their identity taken?

Being Irish in Ireland is wishing to be part of the community, being British in Ireland is divorcing yourself from the community with all of the problems that causes. I am not being perfectly logical here, I also expect the Irish in Britain to be responsible members of British society even if they wish to retain an affinity to Ireland. Do you think the Irish in Britain should march up and down seeking the tricolour on their city hall?

So under the current political arrangements you would you be against the Tricolour being flown over Belfast City hall?
If we want / expect symbols of "Irishness" be accepted in NI we have to allow the converse.

[trueblue1234]

I suspect they would want to considered as Irish as Robbie in the sense of being from and belonging to the island of Ireland, regardless of whether they feel an allegiance to a parliament in Dublin or London. Too many posters on this board would still be of the opinion that Ulster prods are 'invaders' or 'immigrants'. Ridiculous view, imo.

As far as unionists are concerned, The North is part of the UK/Britain. I wouldn't imagine they would recognise themselves as being in any way similar to someone from the the South. They have a Btitish identity, so being on the same island means diddly squat to them. In the same way, folk in Gibraltar are in the same country/area as Spain, but they don't consider themselves as Spanish.

They are similar to someone from the south in that they belong to the same island. The fact that they believe that their part of the island should have a political connection with Britain is a political view. You, and people who share your view, seem to think that this political opinion somehow disqualifies them from being considered properly Irish (i.e belonging to or from the island of Ireland). I disagree. Politics, religion, sporting preferences, etc, shouldn't come in to it.

Shouldn't, but it does. That's the reality.

I'm not the one saying Northern Protestants aren't Irish. They say it themselves.

When they say it themselves, they are rejecting the notion that being Irish means being Catholic and gaelic and holding a belief in a 32 county independent state; that seems to be only type of Irish offered to them as 'genuine'.

How do you know this and feel you can speak for them?

I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone. I'm expressing a personal opinion, but it's one based on conversations with my wife of 15 years, my in laws, and a few good friends, all of whom are proud to be from the Ulster protestant-Ulster British tradition.

Well your post above doesn't read like a personal opinion.

[lawnseed]

26 prods! They live in a soverign state. They have done so for their whole lives (unless theyre 100) why would they not feel equally irish. They speak the language become politicians join the army/gardai run businesses live on huge farms.. Wait!! Live on huge farms.. Emmm...yeah they own a disproportionite ammount of land in comparison to thier catholic neighbours.. The best land

[armaghniac]

It appears that on one hand you are arguing that you should be allowed to be Irish in NI but on the other hand when it comes to a United Ireland that Unionists should just put up with having their identity taken?

Being Irish in Ireland is wishing to be part of the community, being British in Ireland is divorcing yourself from the community with all of the problems that causes. I am not being perfectly logical here, I also expect the Irish in Britain to be responsible members of British society even if they wish to retain an affinity to Ireland. Do you think the Irish in Britain should march up and down seeking the tricolour on their city hall?

So under the current political arrangements you would you be against the Tricolour being flown over Belfast City hall?
If we want / expect symbols of "Irishness" be accepted in NI we have to allow the converse.

Under the current political arrangements they should simply fly the Belfast coat of arms on the Belfast city hall and stop arguing about it.

In general, my proposition is that Irishness rank above others things in Ireland, that Britishness rank about other things in Britain, Frenchness in France and so on. This is simple normality.

[ONeill]

Protestant is a strange word.

[Myles Na G.]

It appears that on one hand you are arguing that you should be allowed to be Irish in NI but on the other hand when it comes to a United Ireland that Unionists should just put up with having their identity taken?

Being Irish in Ireland is wishing to be part of the community, being British in Ireland is divorcing yourself from the community with all of the problems that causes. I am not being perfectly logical here, I also expect the Irish in Britain to be responsible members of British society even if they wish to retain an affinity to Ireland. Do you think the Irish in Britain should march up and down seeking the tricolour on their city hall?

So under the current political arrangements you would you be against the Tricolour being flown over Belfast City hall?
If we want / expect symbols of "Irishness" be accepted in NI we have to allow the converse.

Under the current political arrangements they should simply fly the Belfast coat of arms on the Belfast city hall and stop arguing about it.

In general, my proposition is that Irishness rank above others things in Ireland, that Britishness rank about other things in Britain, Frenchness in France and so on. This is simple normality.

Define 'Irishness' as you see it. Also, I note that you talk about Britishness in Britain, as opposed to Britishness in the UK. Any particular reason why you chose that form of words?

[lawnseed]

26 prods! They live in a soverign state. They have done so for their whole lives (unless theyre 100) why would they not feel equally irish. They speak the language become politicians join the army/gardai run businesses live on huge farms.. Wait!! Live on huge farms.. Emmm...yeah they own a disproportionite ammount of land in comparison to thier catholic neighbours.. The best land

I'd be fairly sure this "difference" is related to a perception in the aborigional irish that these prods took this land and are undeserving of it. That they have enjoyed the benefits of being loyal to the crown and now thats over.. Theres going to be payback. I feel my monaghan prod farmer example is just his family's way of preventing his huge holding falling into papish hands

[armaghniac]

Also, I note that you talk about Britishness in Britain, as opposed to Britishness in the UK. Any particular reason why you chose that form of words?

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has two parts. In any normal union people would be clear which bit there were from, and staunch in their identity to that part,  rather than identifying with the other bit. The UK is not a real union, it is Britain and a colonial appendage. In the original act of Union with Ireland  the British simply carried on talking about the British government and the British Army etc. as if nothing had happened, because of course nothing had happened  as it was not intended to be an equal union. In a real union people in NI would object to this onsidedness and insist on the term UK being used for official purposes. But were someone to propose greater use of the term UK the greatest opposition to it would be in NI where people would object to being UKites, but would demand to be "British". That is because their affinity is not with their own part of the union, but the colonial identity. If unionist had any real wish for an inclusive NI, inclusive of the Irish people there, remaining in the UK indefinitely they would drop this British this and emphasise the UK thing. But there is zero chance of them doing that.

[Milltown Row2]

26 prods! They live in a soverign state. They have done so for their whole lives (unless theyre 100) why would they not feel equally irish. They speak the language become politicians join the army/gardai run businesses live on huge farms.. Wait!! Live on huge farms.. Emmm...yeah they own a disproportionite ammount of land in comparison to thier catholic neighbours.. The best land

I'd be fairly sure this "difference" is related to a perception in the aborigional irish that these prods took this land and are undeserving of it. That they have enjoyed the benefits of being loyal to the crown and now thats over.. Theres going to be payback. I feel my monaghan prod farmer example is just his family's way of preventing his huge holding falling into papish hands

Are you quoting yourself??


Anyway plenty of land in South Armagh that has fallen into papish hands over the years This is pants, Prods down south have as much affinity to Britain as the Dutch/German/Danish Prods do to Britain. Maybe 90 odd years ago they probably felt like we did here in the North, left out, but surprising what time does and hopefully we here in the North will be able to cross that bridge.

As for people marrying their own it happens due to who they grow up with, church with school with, Jews stick with their own as do Muslims but we don't seem to be bringing that up as a problem, strange that I wonder do they see themselves as Irish or not lol

[LeoMc]

It appears that on one hand you are arguing that you should be allowed to be Irish in NI but on the other hand when it comes to a United Ireland that Unionists should just put up with having their identity taken?

Being Irish in Ireland is wishing to be part of the community, being British in Ireland is divorcing yourself from the community with all of the problems that causes. I am not being perfectly logical here, I also expect the Irish in Britain to be responsible members of British society even if they wish to retain an affinity to Ireland. Do you think the Irish in Britain should march up and down seeking the tricolour on their city hall?

So under the current political arrangements you would you be against the Tricolour being flown over Belfast City hall?
If we want / expect symbols of "Irishness" be accepted in NI we have to allow the converse.

Under the current political arrangements they should simply fly the Belfast coat of arms on the Belfast city hall and stop arguing about it.

In general, my proposition is that Irishness rank above others things in Ireland, that Britishness rank about other things in Britain, Frenchness in France and so on. This is simple normality.

So because we live in a British jurisdiction we should rank being British (or UKish) ahead of being Irish?