Shamrock Rovers Ultras

[oneillcup2007]

i thought Shamrock rovers went out of business a couple of years ago.  Who is trying to bring them back into business.  Have they shares?  Will Rovers own or simplY have use of the ground?  It would be a valuable plot to own. 

[deiseach]

As for money paid to intercounty managers, if you were on this board for any length of time you would be aware that most posters here would be delighted if the practice could be eliminated. It's a blight on our association, and it needs stopping since it was one of the first steps towards pay for play. If you possibly have any concrete evidence of this practice I'd be delighted to report it. However most of the arguments you and Good Relations are putting forward are a bit short on that vital ingredient.

In the series of straw men that have been lined up in this debate, this one is the child of the Wicker Man and the Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz. As you say, most of us would be only too thrilled if the Revenue threw the book at county boards for paying managers.

[Lone Shark]

But yet you are prepared to petition the revenue to investigate rovers based upon the discrepancies between GR's boastings and someone else estimate of attendance’s from foot.ie. Concrete evidence indeed.

Incorrect. I am prepared to petition the revenue to investigate Rovers on the strength that last year Galway United reported at their official press conference that they topped division 1 attendances with 1100 average home attendance, as opposed to 1081 for Shamrock Rovers. Now allowing for a home season of 18 games, and even assuming everyone paid the full price admission of €15, that's total admission revenue for the year of €290,000, a figure which I would imagine is very generous when reduced prices for kids etc is taken into account. Today PP announced sponsorship of St. Pat's, an established Premier Division side that's top of the table for €100k a year. If we generously assume that Rovers got €70,000 from sponsors last year on that basis, which is large bearing in mind they weren't going to appear anywhere being in the first division, that's overall revenue in the vicinity of €360,000. I'm going to be ultra generous here and round this up to €420,000 allowing for jersey sales, programme sales and other minor revenue sources.

Now for more official data, all taken from a Rovers Press Release.

Last year Shamrock Rovers paid €102,000 in tax. Most GAA intercounty teams spent at least €50,000 on team preparation, and that's for a lot less games than Rovers played. If we ignore every other expense that the team could incur, or practical issues like public liability insurance, because I can't be arsed to think of them right now, that leaves just under €270,000. Now according again to the same press release, Rovers "employ upwards of 30 people".

So in other words each of these people get paid a salary of €9,000 each? Something ain't right.

And it was on this basis that I felt an email to the revenue was worth a shot. Something right ain't going on. Perhaps it's just that Rovers don't employ any of these people at all, and they're just claiming a contract cleaner who comes in once a week as an employee, but it's worth asking.


See? Facts, figures, sourced from real sources, rather than just beliefs. Ye should try them out some time.

[dublin15man]

the only relevant facts you have are the average attendance at Galway Utd home games for last season and the sum for Paddy Powers sponsorship of St Pats for this year. The rest is just one assumption after another.
You don't take into account that after they got relegated in 2004 they had to let go nearly all of their players on professional contracts. Also they were only kept running by the contributions from the fans. Which all bears no relationship whtsoever with Galway Utd.
Anyway I can't excatly see the revenue setting up another tribunal on the basis of your complaint.

[Lone Shark]

I don't expect a tribunal either, and I did not make a complaint - I merely pointed out some facts that appear incongruous. However, while some are assumptions, some are not. The 1081 average attendance for Rovers is an official FAI sourced number, available from Eircom LOI (I took the liberty of abusing my journalistic position to put in a call). The only reason I cited Galway utd was because that press conference is google-able and thus you could check it out for yourself - backing up the eveidence, y'see? The 102,000 paid in tax and the 30 employees are figures from a Shamrock Rovers press release, which you can read on their own website. If Shamrock Rovers are putting bad assumptions into their press releases something is grievously wrong. Perhaps they did have to let all their staff go, but they themselves are claiming they have thirty staff now, forming a big part of their claim to be making a contribution to the state and community. If these are all let go, then the official letter submitted to the Irish Times on behalf of the club looks rather foolish.

As for the other numbers, every single one of them is a very kind estimate to Rovers, and yet there is a huge shortfall. These numbers do not add up. If you're able to point out where the €200k is that is gone missing from my numbers, I will take my hat off to you and thank you for the first factual contribution you've made to this debate. If you're not, I'll merely remark to myself that it is striking how Rovers budget seems short by exactly the amount they would be making if their attendances were in fact over 2000 per match, despite the fact that they are reporting half that.

[behind the wire]

big craic on the thread today lads!!! i definitely think loneshark should be  brought in to present TD's argument!

by the way, i see we got dublinfella back today but havent seen any sign of 'good vibrations' - any coincidence? or has good vibrations finally saw sense?

[dublinfella]

(1) There are indeed hundreds of municipal facilities across the country. Facilities that are open to the public, and can be used by anyone who wishes to take part in the sport(s) for which it is intended. Now maybe I'm wrong, but if I, a useless runabout, wishes to play soccer in this new stadium, how do I go about it? Can I book a regular Friday night at 7pm slot for me and my mates? Because I can with every other municipal facility I know of.

i agree 100%. but the stadium is designed and intended for soccer.

as far as im aware, yes, you will be able to book the ground in a similar way to a municpal golf couse, once the members are fixed up its first come first served. and im sure they would welcome bodies in the club house after. 

(2) FOR. THE. LAST. TIME!!!! Thomas Davis are not objecting to Rovers getting funding. Thomas Davis are objecting to the ministerial interference that forced the SDCC to reverse their earlier decision. I do not like the idea of soccer clubs in this country with their track record being funded, but as a citizen in a democracy I have to take the good with the bad. Some public funds will be spent in ways that I approve, and some won't. However as a citizen of a democracy I have a right to live in something better than a banana republic where a minister from Kerry can stick his nose in to an affair not of his direct concern. Perhaps he was correct to do so, perhaps - but the initial judgement from the courts suggests the question at least needs to be asked. I wholeheartedly support TD in their efforts to keep the Kerry gombeen in check and within the law.

not of his direct concern? despite the fact he is responsible for the funding? thats poor. Again, a GAA club is entitled to 'interfere', but the minister for sport cannot. come on LS, thats bollocks and you know it. whats next, the minister for health not being allowed an input into how hospitals are run? he has an obligation to deliver value for money, and he feels that replanning, rebuilding and having 2,000 seats is in his opinion not acceptible for the money involved. shite talk LS and clutching at straws.

(3) As for the GAA planning and costing this setup, you may remember the Dublin County Board offered to develop the stadium back when Rovers were in "difficulty" to put it mildly. This was turned down. Why should they, or TD, put any funding in now when Rovers aren't?

I offered to ride Angelina Jolie. Doenst mean it was going to happen.

(4) Your point about whether they fit or not remains uncertain. You, Shamrock Rovers, and the minister, maintain that architects reports do not allow for a GAA pitch and anything more than 2000 capacity. Thomas Davis have an architect's report saying otherwise. I don't know you, but I know that John O'Donoghue and Shamrock Rovers both have a track record of not being completely honest, so my initial reaction is to believe TD - but it probably requires independent corroboration.

TD have failed to produce this report. They or their 'architects' didnt have access to the site. If they could produce this report they would be in, no arguments from either the councilm the minister or Rovers. But they havent. I smell rodent.

(5) I don't know exactly who is funding TD's case, but I know this. It's not the taxpayer, so what issue is it of yours, or mine for that matter? If either the club members or some benefactor thought that this was a useful use of the club's funds, funds that were got the hard way, something a soccer club would know nothing about, then who are we to argue?

As a member of the association who fundraises, Im entitled to ask if millions of GAA money is being used on this. If TD actually needed 2,000 seats, the cost of the case would pay for it. Rovers and the SDCC have declared how they are paying their bills, TD have refused. I can categorically assure you TD members never got a vote on whether to take the case, let alone asked if they were willing to fund it.

(6) Finally - where do you stand on the attendances issue? Rovers are being reported as having an average attendance of just over 1,000. Our new poster Good Relations believes it to be 3,000. Either your new, honest club is under-reporting attendances, or our new buddy is talking through his hole. Care to enlighten the rest of us on which it is?
[/quote

I have less than no opinion on Rovers crowds, but, the figures quoted were from eyewitness guesstimates from foot.ie. Rovers arent being reported as saying a thing. Their league crowds in the first with no away fans were probably averaging the 1,000 mark, their cup games against pats and bohs were closer to 7,000. Whats the Dubs average crowd? 8,000 or 65,000? 

Rovers cant ask who is funding TD's case but you are entitled to imply they are fiddling with absolutly no access or insight into their figures? Just when you thought it couldnt get any more surreal....

[magickingdom]

dublinfella as good relations has yet to get back maybe you can answer these two questions if you can. 1) how many members in rovers 400 (not trying to be smart) 2)what is the ownership structure of the new rovers ie the benificial owners..

[Fishead_Sam]

Irish Soccer

Dublin City - Bust
Shelbourne - Bust & demoted
Dundalk - Nearly Bust a few years back
Sligo Rovers - About to go Bust
Shamrock Rovers - Just back up from demotion, sold their ground 25 years ago now have the begging bowl out for money
Republin of Ireland are worse than Northern Ireland (or Northern Healy Ireland to be more accurate)
Landsown Road - Squatting there for 30 years, first they try and take it off the IRFU, now they want to get to get their hands over GAA   HQ

New McHale Park will be close in size to New Lansdown

[Rossfan]

Some facts -for the umpeenth time- SD CoCouncil paid €1.5mil to get their own land back from Shambeggars. They also have to pay the Builder and various architects/engineers/Q Surveyors outstanding debts left by the Shambeggars.
At this point app €3.4m or €3.7 m of public monies has been spent on the ruin in Tallaght.- estimated at over €600,000.
Then there's the whole question -even if the Council get the go ahead to build a soccer only stadium- of public procurement. The Council can hardly just appoint the same builder that Shambeggars had without going to tender.That is against Irish and EU Law.
Why are the Shams backers spreading so many pseudo fictional comments about this whole sad sorry saga which could be sorted out in 5 minutes around a table.l

[dublinfella]

Some facts -for the umpeenth time- SD CoCouncil paid €1.5mil to get their own land back from Shambeggars. They also have to pay the Builder and various architects/engineers/Q Surveyors outstanding debts left by the Shambeggars.
At this point app €3.4m or €3.7 m of public monies has been spent on the ruin in Tallaght.- estimated at over €600,000.
Then there's the whole question -even if the Council get the go ahead to build a soccer only stadium- of public procurement. The Council can hardly just appoint the same builder that Shambeggars had without going to tender.That is against Irish and EU Law.
Why are the Shams backers spreading so many pseudo fictional comments about this whole sad sorry saga which could be sorted out in 5 minutes around a table.l

What are you talking about? Why would they need to re-tender for the same project? The council have the go ahead its a section 8 completion of a facility that has pp already, the delay is because TD injunted. And rovers are spreading fiction? That post makes no sense.

Any other Dubs see the 11 page letter TD gave to their members? Vicious stuff. They have constituted a board to fight the Govt on 'all fronts' and they announced that local FF TD Conor Lenihan has been barred from their clubhouse for refusing to side with them. 

Kennedy has finally lost the plot and his temper. They must be howling with laughter on the Rovers forum. Nasty stuff, Ill try and get it scanned.

[magickingdom]

dublinfella, any chance you answering my two questions?

[dublinfella]

dublinfella, any chance you answering my two questions?

1: i believe about 500 and 2: members owned not for profit club, any excess at the end of the year is put into the youth side. i dont know what you mean by beneficial owners?

[magpie seanie]

they announced that local FF TD Conor Lenihan has been barred from their clubhouse for refusing to side with them

They must mean business. The legal fees AND this massive drop in bar profits!

[magickingdom]

Dublinfella,
"1: i believe about 500 and 2: members owned not for profit club, any excess at the end of the year is put into the youth side. i dont know what you mean by beneficial owners?


foxrock golf club is a members owned not for profit club, its for sale with the members getting a few hundred grand each and their moving on. this cannot happen with gaa clubs, even if they sell their ground the money goes into the gaa. thats why benifical ownership is important (ie who eventually gets the benifit of an asset). public money should NEVER go into these organisations. their community organisations in name only