"Half of all top IRA men worked for the security services "

[AQMP]

If half or a quarter or whatever fraction is current of IRA members were informers and the operation to kill these two policemen was months in the planning and involved a large number of people, how come the Guards/RUC seem to know nothing about it and hundreds of other IRA operations

Re the two RUC Officers, if their murder really had been "months in the planning", that would mean that the murderers knew the date of the RUC visit to Dundalk and the return route home months in advance.

That is patently impossible. In fact, the significance of their murder is alleged at Smethwick to be quite the contrary, namely the IRA were able to mount the ambush at relatively short notice, since they had an agent in Dundalk Gardai Station tipping them off.

And as for the "hundreds of other IRA operations", it is widely known and accepted that for every operation which was launched, many other proposed or planned operations were aborted variously because:

(a ) they were felt to be too risky for the operatives; and/or
(b ) the targets' own security precautions were too effective; and/or
(c ) the operatives were infiltrated by informers; and/or
(d ) Security Forces electronic interception and technical capabilities etc were increasingly to give them an advantage over the  IRA.

I take your point EG, but just to clarify the "months in planning" bit came from the BBC article above:

Mr Corrigan said he had information that the "execution" of the two officers had been planned months in advance and involved a considerable number of people, yet he had not received any hint in advance that the murders were to take place.

Your quote:  it is widely known and accepted that for every operation which was launched, many other proposed or planned operations were aborted variously because:

Feck me, the 'RA must have been wild busy if the number of attacks carried out represents a fraction of those planned or proposed!!  While it must be true that the IRA was infiltrated by security forces (I remember a veteran Republican telling me in the early 80s that "the war will be lost in the pubs") figures such as 50% or 25% seem to me to be more or less plucked out of the air.

[magpie seanie]

If you were getting paid by the British security services but the information you were giving was horse manure would you still be counted in the stats? Could have been a good way to fundraise 

[Evil Genius]

I take your point EG, but just to clarify the "months in planning" bit came from the BBC article above:

Mr Corrigan said he had information that the "execution" of the two officers had been planned months in advance and involved a considerable number of people, yet he had not received any hint in advance that the murders were to take place.

Your quote:  it is widely known and accepted that for every operation which was launched, many other proposed or planned operations were aborted variously because:

Re the BBC quotation ("months in the planning"), if Corrigan were an IRA agent, then it is in his interests to make this claim, since if it were a last minute job, then suspicion would inevitably fall on the Gardai officers on duty in the station in on the day.

Feck me, the 'RA must have been wild busy if the number of attacks carried out represents a fraction of those planned or proposed!!

Yes, the IRA certainly were "wild busy" - otherwise how do you think they managed to murder over 1500 people, whilst maiming thousands more and destroying untold amounts of property etc.

Anyhow, having been born and brought up in a border area and having had many friends, neighbours and relatives etc murdered etc, I have absolutely no doubt that this is true.

Some of the people murdered were attacked several times, over many years, before the IRA succeeded, and these were only the attacks that were mounted, known to have been mounted, and subsequently disclosed.

While it must be true that the IRA was infiltrated by security forces (I remember a veteran Republican telling me in the early 80s that "the war will be lost in the pubs") figures such as 50% or 25% seem to me to be more or less plucked out of the air.

It is in the interests of the Security Forces to exagerrate the number of informants, just as it is in the interests of the IRA to deny it.

I personally couldn't say exactly where the truth lies, but it is pretty much indisputable that the IRA came to be heavily infiltrated - increasingly so as The Troubles went on - including up to a very high (the highest?) level.

[Nally Stand]

If half or a quarter or whatever fraction is current of IRA members were informers and the operation to kill these two policemen was months in the planning and involved a large number of people, how come the Guards/RUC seem to know nothing about it and hundreds of other IRA operations

And how is it that a number of British army/govn figures admitted they couldn't beat the IRA?

Half or a quarter?! 

Because then the "Game" would be over.

The game would be over if they admitted they couldn't defeat the IRA? That's the thing though, they did say as much.

Here's the former head of the British Army:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRJGfe0k7rI&feature=related

And here's a report on a British Army document, uncovered by the Pat Finucane Centre:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6276416.stm

Tony Blair is even on record as stating that the IRA were not defeated.

[Agent Orange]

If the IRA were not defeated as you state Nally, then why did they surrender? Why did they surrender their arms as part of the terms of this surrender. And if they didn't surrender then where is their 32 county republic?

[Ulick]

Well he would say that wouldn't he. 

[Trout]

If the IRA were not defeated as you state Nally, then why did they surrender? Why did they surrender their arms as part of the terms of this surrender. And if they didn't surrender then where is their 32 county republic?

It was some defeat for the Brits, the North still in the Union, IRA out of action and decommissioned their weapons, unity further away than ever and Sinn Fein administering British rule in Stormont.

[Rossfan]

So  Trout ... what's your super solution ?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

So  Trout ... what's your super solution ?

Don't worry about him, he has a handshake like a wet fish. 

[mylestheslasher]

At the start of the thread 50% of the ira were informers, now its 25%. It will be 10% in 12 months I suppose.

[LeoMc]

At the start of the thread 50% of the ira were informers, now its 25%. It will be 10% in 12 months I suppose.

I think the claim was half of the leadership and 25% of the foot soldiers.

[Evil Genius]

Tony Blair is even on record as stating that the IRA were not defeated.

Has he got a Dossier on the matter, by any chance? 

Anyhow you may argue what you like, but the fact remains, just as only one undefeated Army gets to march through Belfast - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H97khaS0xqg&feature=related -   only one Armed Forces flag will be flying over the City Hall next week:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18546644

[Applesisapples]

So much for the shared future Unionist's spout on about. Alliance have shown themselves up for the unionist party they are. City hall should be a neutral venue. This is Alliance adding their voices to the croppies lie down chant...And Marty wants tea with the Queen. Lets see atricolour at city hall if they want a shared future. And lets not have any of the tried and trusted Flag of the country Shit it has only the support of half the population.

[Evil Genius]

So much for the shared future Unionist's spout on about. Alliance have shown themselves up for the unionist party they are. City hall should be a neutral venue. This is Alliance adding their voices to the croppies lie down chant...And Marty wants tea with the Queen. Lets see atricolour at city hall if they want a shared future. And lets not have any of the tried and trusted Flag of the country Shit it has only the support of half the population.

My post was nothing to do with "shared future" etc.

Rather it was in response to those who claim the IRA "was never defeated " by the British Army.

On which point I think it pertinent that now the conflict is over, only one of the two gets to parade and salute the flag etc in Belfast.

[Canalman]

So much for the shared future Unionist's spout on about. Alliance have shown themselves up for the unionist party they are. City hall should be a neutral venue. This is Alliance adding their voices to the croppies lie down chant...And Marty wants tea with the Queen. Lets see atricolour at city hall if they want a shared future. And lets not have any of the tried and trusted Flag of the country Shit it has only the support of half the population.

My post was nothing to do with "shared future" etc.

Rather it was in response to those who claim the IRA "was never defeated " by the British Army.

On which point I think it pertinent that now the conflict is over, only one of the two gets to parade and salute the flag etc in Belfast.

Let us know when the B Specials, RUC and UDR are parading down the streets.