What do you make of this?

[Hardy]

Define common sense as it applies in an organisation applying rules agreed by its membership, specifically to provide for how it will deal with any given situation. How does it avoid the type of anarchy that says "we've agreed these rules, but they're only to be applied when they don't cause controversy, upset people or lead to hard decisions. In these situations, we'll abandon the rules (which exist precisely to guide us in these hard situations) and apply something undefined, upon which no two parties (especially the parties in dispute) are likely to agree, called "common sense"?

Can you outline for me the common sense process that replaces the rules in these situations and especially how this "common sense" works when people use the "common sense" decision to point out, in all future cases where the rules need to be applied, that precedent dictates that "common sense" supersedes all rules?

[Zulu]

Rules are repeatedly ignored in the GAA and many other organisations, decisions made which aren't truly democratic but the result of deals made. You're not naive enough to think otherwise Hardy yet you seem be suggesting that GAA officials should abandon their ability to think and simply check up the rule book, if the rule says one thing then go with that and ignore the context, and why? Well, no reason really other than the rule book says so. That shouldn't be supported by any sensible person, it's not like we're talking about applying the rules willy nilly but when cases come up that clearly should be dealt with in a flexible manner then we should do that.

Two young kids want to play football with their friends in a small struggling club that they view as their club (and is), but we're not going to allow them because the club is not in their parish. Applying the rule in this case is idiotic and serves no purpose other than to make us look stupid and deprive two kids football with their friends.

[Pickas]

Is the GAA a community based organisation or a parish based organisation?
The fact is that it that it cannot be both  If the GAA truly believes the parish is the 'cornerstone' of the organisation this "parish rule" could be made an enforceable rule in the Official Guide, rather than an option as it currently stands.  But to do so, it would have to remove all references to community, including the following:
Mission:
"The GAA is a community based volunteer organisation promoting Gaelic games, culture and lifelong participation"
Values:
Community Identity
• Community is at the heart of our Association.   Everything we do helps to enrich the communities we serve.
• We foster a clear sense of identity and place.

[Lar Naparka]

This isn't a GAA rule, Waterford don't apply it for one but like all rules it should be applied sensibly and not dogmatically. This is a victory for rules over commonsense and that always leads to disaster.

What 'disaster' do you foresee here?  NB the loss of two children to the GAA does not represent a disaster

I think it depends on who is making the call. Certainly it's not a disaster for the GAA but the kids and their parents and friends may regard it as a disaster for them.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other because I don't think all the facts have been made public. But there are practical issues that concern me and they don't appear to have come into the reckoning at all.
I'm thinking of transport and safety in particular.
Sending a pair of kids off on their bikes on a fine summer's day is one thing but having to drive them to and from training sessions on wet and windy days in mid-winter is quite another.
I've seen no mention in anything I have read or heard so far of the possibility of one of the children getting injured while training or playing with the Firies club. Okay, I know the possibility of this happening is remote and accidents could happen if they were members of the Listry club but if I were their father I'd much prefer to have them within easy reach if anything untoward happened.
As I've already indicated, I don't know the ins and outs of this particular case but if those children were mine, I'd opt to have them giving up football altogether rather than sending them to a club outside their locality.

[deiseach]

Are we meant to believe that we're doing it better in Waterford where the entire football programme was postponed last weekend for the 'benefit' of the hurlers?

They might have been better off postponing the hurling for the benefit of the hurlers.

Post that to last week when it might have been some use to us

[deiseach]

So hardy you think that the speed limit, for example, should be applied in all cases, the guy going 42 in a 40 zone should be done the same way the guy who is doing 100 in a 40 zone? Rules are there to prevent people taking the piss not to be rigidly applied even when common sense tells us otherwise, especially in a sporting context. 

I don't think the speed limit should apply in all cases. I don't think there should be no derogations from the parish rule. But I don't think that you can go yerra, let's not bother applying the speed limit because other people may get away with it or because we have to think of the children.And so on.

Deiseach, the loss of two kids who want to kick a bit of ball but are prevented by muppet adults applying a rule in a ridiculous situation is a disaster IMO. We have two kids who want to join a smaller club, not for glory but to play with their friends and the GAA are telling them they can't and must play with strangers 7 miles away, if that isn't a disaster for an amateur sporting organisation I don't know what is.

Your definition of 'disaster' is so broad as to render the word meaningless

[AZOffaly]

Deiseach, you're a Waterford man, and Zulu has mentioned that Waterford doesn't apply the parish rule and it's fine. I'm wondering do Waterford club folk share the same attitude though? I know Eoin Kelly, for one, transferred from his junior club to Mount Sion (obviously a more glamourous club) and when he had enough of them he moved back to his own club. The problem there is probably that his own club has missed out on his peak days.

Does that happen a lot down there? Is it just accepted, or do the Junior clubs rail against it? And can any man play for any club in Waterford he feels like, and switch from year to year, or is there any other restriction?

[deiseach]

Deiseach, you're a Waterford man, and Zulu has mentioned that Waterford doesn't apply the parish rule and it's fine. I'm wondering do Waterford club folk share the same attitude though? I know Eoin Kelly, for one, transferred from his junior club to Mount Sion (obviously a more glamourous club) and when he had enough of them he moved back to his own club. The problem there is probably that his own club has missed out on his peak days.

Does that happen a lot down there? Is it just accepted, or do the Junior clubs rail against it? And can any man play for any club in Waterford he feels like, and switch from year to year, or is there any other restriction?

Did Eoin Kelly transfer from another club to Mount Sion? You ahve the advantage on me there. I don't think moving club is that common. You only have to look to the Waterford panel to see some distinctly unglamorous clubs in it. There was a phase in the late 90's where Mount Sion seemed to be hoovering up the talent but thankfully it passed. You have to remember that while there is no parish rule a club can still prevent a player from moving if they so choose, so if the County Board doesn't approve the transfer then it doesn't happen. In this respect we are no different to Kerry.

[Zulu]

So hardy you think that the speed limit, for example, should be applied in all cases, the guy going 42 in a 40 zone should be done the same way the guy who is doing 100 in a 40 zone? Rules are there to prevent people taking the piss not to be rigidly applied even when common sense tells us otherwise, especially in a sporting context. 

I don't think the speed limit should apply in all cases. I don't think there should be no derogations from the parish rule. But I don't think that you can go yerra, let's not bother applying the speed limit because other people may get away with it or because we have to think of the children.And so on.

Deiseach, the loss of two kids who want to kick a bit of ball but are prevented by muppet adults applying a rule in a ridiculous situation is a disaster IMO. We have two kids who want to join a smaller club, not for glory but to play with their friends and the GAA are telling them they can't and must play with strangers 7 miles away, if that isn't a disaster for an amateur sporting organisation I don't know what is.

Your definition of 'disaster' is so broad as to render the word meaningless

I didn't suggest a 'yerra' approach to club affiliations but I advocate a sensible approach to them. It makes no sense for the KCB or the 'local' club to dig their heels in here yet that is what they've done.

As for what constitutes a disaster, well when rules are applied so idiotically and result in kids not playing our sports  then that is a disaster in a sporting context, what the hell are we about if not getting kids to play GAA. More importantly this will become ever more common as society changes and if we don't cop on many more kids could turn to other sports. I wonder what mothers with no GAA affiliations make of this, will they be more inclined to send little jonny done to the local soccer or rugby club as a result?

[deiseach]

I don't think there's much point in carrying on this discussion, Zulu. You have stated your opinion very reasonably but it's mutually incompatible with mine

[AZOffaly]

Deiseach, you're a Waterford man, and Zulu has mentioned that Waterford doesn't apply the parish rule and it's fine. I'm wondering do Waterford club folk share the same attitude though? I know Eoin Kelly, for one, transferred from his junior club to Mount Sion (obviously a more glamourous club) and when he had enough of them he moved back to his own club. The problem there is probably that his own club has missed out on his peak days.

Does that happen a lot down there? Is it just accepted, or do the Junior clubs rail against it? And can any man play for any club in Waterford he feels like, and switch from year to year, or is there any other restriction?

Did Eoin Kelly transfer from another club to Mount Sion? You ahve the advantage on me there. I don't think moving club is that common. You only have to look to the Waterford panel to see some distinctly unglamorous clubs in it. There was a phase in the late 90's where Mount Sion seemed to be hoovering up the talent but thankfully it passed. You have to remember that while there is no parish rule a club can still prevent a player from moving if they so choose, so if the County Board doesn't approve the transfer then it doesn't happen. In this respect we are no different to Kerry.

I thought Eoin Kelly moved from a junior club to Mount Sion, and then moved back in recent years. Maybe he was never with the junior club at all before that. In that case, how do Mount Sion feel about junior clubs poaching their best players

Fair point about the transfers, but we all saw the issue with Eamonn Fennell up in Dublin so I'm not sure that's as cut and dried either. I do think that might be the best solution though. Have a parish 'guideline' as opposed to a rule, but allow players to transfer if there are exceptional circumstances and both clubs are agreeable.

[Hardy]

Rules are repeatedly ignored in the GAA and many other organisations, decisions made which aren't truly democratic but the result of deals made. You're not naive enough to think otherwise Hardy yet you seem be suggesting that GAA officials should abandon their ability to think and simply check up the rule book, if the rule says one thing then go with that and ignore the context, and why? Well, no reason really other than the rule book says so. That shouldn't be supported by any sensible person, it's not like we're talking about applying the rules willy nilly but when cases come up that clearly should be dealt with in a flexible manner then we should do that.

Two young kids want to play football with their friends in a small struggling club that they view as their club (and is), but we're not going to allow them because the club is not in their parish. Applying the rule in this case is idiotic and serves no purpose other than to make us look stupid and deprive two kids football with their friends.

That's great, Zulu but I'm no wiser about how you propose to run the GAA without rules. Well, OK, with rules that are not really rules because we may choose to ignore them on some unspecified basis. I'm serious - how does this work?

[Pickas]

Why is it a case of "us v. them"?
Are we not all part of the GAA?
Are those with the power to enact and enforce rules acting responsibly if they choose to continually ignore the aims and the values of the GAA?

Also, as more influential committees within the administrative structure of the GAA have apparently chosen to ignore flaws with  the "parish rule" following the 'Strategic Review' in 2002, how can lower levels of this organization enact effective and lasting change to the "parish rule" without leadership?

Can loyalty be forced? Should it not be earned?
"Loyalty is a feature in a boy's character that inspires boundless hope." Sir Robert Baden-Powel

[AZOffaly]

Pickas, would you be advocating a situation where any player can play for any club they want?

[Zulu]

Hardy, I'm not saying we should have no rules and I'm not saying we should ignore them when difficult situation arise but there are times when we should look at the context of a situation. This already happens, the GAA already ignores it's own rules on occasion and exceptions are made to the parish rule, if the same happened here the GAA would float serenely on. By acting as they have Kerry have brought the parish rule into focus and we will increasingly see this type of thing in the future. This isn't the banks, we are a sporting organisation and we don't always need to adhere to rules that are patently daft in some situations. What would have happened if they had ignored this rule in this situation? Two young fellas would probably be playing a football match this weekend, as it is they might never play again and all because they want to play for a small struggling club down the road from their house.