Irish neutrality??

[lawnseed]

just wondering if anyone still thinks ireland is a neutral country? i cant help feeling that given the two state visits ie the queen of england and the president of the united states in quick succession that the country has been sucked into that powerpack that is at present policing the world. i cant get round the notion that things have changed for the worse and I'm  not thinking of money

[mannix]

Explain your thoughts please

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

just wondering if anyone still thinks ireland is a neutral country? i cant help feeling that given the two state visits ie the queen of england and the president of the united states in quick succession that the country has been sucked into that powerpack that is at present policing the world. i cant get round the notion that things have changed for the worse and I'm  not thinking of money

World War 2 hundreds of thousands of Irishmen (North & Rep.) fought for the allies.
World War 2 British Planes were allowed to fly through a zone of Donegal between their base on Lough Erne and their missions in the Atlantic.
World War 2 Éire signs carried numbers to give coded directions to American planes on way to take part in D-Day.
World War 2 weather details sent from Mullet Peninsula to London for D-Day landings.
World War 2 Irish Consulate in Vatican used to spy on Mussolini and report back to the Allies.
World War 2 many British and other Allies pilots let escape and papers given to help escape back to Britain.
World War 2 Fire Brigades of Counties Dublin and Louth rush to the aid of Belfast during its air-raid bombings.
World War 2 German spies arrested by Gardaí.

Bullshite that we were neutral in World War 2.

[thejuice]

What does our participation in the EU's Nordic Battle Group say about our Neutrality?

[Banana Man]

just wondering if anyone still thinks ireland is a neutral country? i cant help feeling that given the two state visits ie the queen of england and the president of the united states in quick succession that the country has been sucked into that powerpack that is at present policing the world. i cant get round the notion that things have changed for the worse and I'm  not thinking of money

World War 2 hundreds of thousands of Irishmen (North & Rep.) fought for the allies.
World War 2 British Planes were allowed to fly through a zone of Donegal between their base on Lough Erne and their missions in the Atlantic.
World War 2 Éire signs carried numbers to give coded directions to American planes on way to take part in D-Day.
World War 2 weather details sent from Mullet Peninsula to London for D-Day landings.
World War 2 Irish Consulate in Vatican used to spy on Mussolini and report back to the Allies.
World War 2 many British and other Allies pilots let escape and papers given to help escape back to Britain.
World War 2 Fire Brigades of Counties Dublin and Louth rush to the aid of Belfast during its air-raid bombings.
World War 2 German spies arrested by Gardaí.

Bullshite that we were neutral in World War 2.

i must have been off the day they taught there was a republic during WW2 

[lawnseed]

so its a given that ireland is not a neutral country so what is our role in the present world order? who should we start a row with? i think we should invade the isle of man.. we can set up an army/navy base there and patrol the irish sea stop and search a few ferries and fishing boats all in the name of preventing the spread of radical manxism.. while we're there we can help them develop their natural resourses for a small commission of course. we can teach them religion and turn them from their heathen ways.. and make them enter a team in both football and hurling showing them the true meaning of the celtic way of life, with the brits and yanks to back us up the mankers would last 5 minutes
whats the point of being part of an empire if we cant do a bit of conquering ourselves

[The Gs Man]

Radical Manxism!

[thebigfella]

so its a given that ireland is not a neutral country so what is our their role in the present world order? who should we they start a row with? i think we they should invade the isle of man.. we they can set up an army/navy base there and patrol the irish sea stop and search a few ferries and fishing boats all in the name of preventing the spread of radical manxism.. while we're they are there we they can help them develop their natural resourses for a small commission of course. we they can teach them religion and turn them from their heathen ways.. and make them enter a team in both football and hurling showing them the true meaning of the celtic way of life, with the brits and yanks to back us up the mankers would last 5 minutes
whats the point of being part of an empire if we cant do a bit of conquering ourselves

Fixed that for you

[ziggysego]

Rendition at Shannon Airport.

[Evil Genius]

just wondering if anyone still thinks ireland is a neutral country? i cant help feeling that given the two state visits ie the queen of england and the president of the united states in quick succession that the country has been sucked into that powerpack that is at present policing the world. i cant get round the notion that things have changed for the worse and I'm  not thinking of money

World War 2 hundreds of thousands of Irishmen (North & Rep.) fought for the allies.

No thanks to the Irish Government  (esp those from NI). Those brave people were volunteers and I know from family history how hard the Irish Government made it for many of them - despite the fact that they were all reducing the Irish dole queues back home, as well as repatriating desperately needed wages etc.

World War 2 British Planes were allowed to fly through a zone of Donegal between their base on Lough Erne and their missions in the Atlantic.

Only after enormous pressure from the UK who, unlike the Nazis, had overwhelming armed forces just over the border, available to deploy at an hours notice. Plus there is the small matter that the Donegal Corridor allowed an extra 100+ miles air  cover for the convoys which were bringing vital food and fuel to the UK and, ahem, the Irish Republic. (This was the same UK which, btw, was the only significant export market for the ROI during 6 years of "The Emergency")
Still, had Hitler succeeded in starving the Allies into submission, no doubt he'd have behaved very correctly when the Wehrmacht landed in the Republic, as was his wont with all occupied countries...

World War 2 Éire signs carried numbers to give coded directions to American planes on way to take part in D-Day.

Don't understand 

World War 2 weather details sent from Mullet Peninsula to London for D-Day landings...

... in June 1944. Somehow I doubt by then that Hitler was interested in/capable of doing much about Eisenhower's request for a few weather forecasts 

World War 2 Irish Consulate in Vatican used to spy on Mussolini and report back to the Allies.

Not quite, they reported back to Dublin, wherefrom certain information made its way to the UK.
Do not understimate the pressure which the Allies were willing/able to bring to bear on the ROI, at a time when they (Allies) were fighting for their very survival. Another example of this pressure was that which forced the Irish Government to prevent the German Ambassador, Hempel*, from sending intelligence reports on Britain back to Berlin by short wave radio.

World War 2 many British and other Allies pilots let escape and papers given to help escape back to Britain.

Again, a questionable interpretation. Prisoners from both sides were Interned, but eventually given daytime "parole" from captivity. German prisoners, unable to escape back to Nazi-occupied Europe, had to return to their camp each evening. British POW's immediately took trains etc to the border, from where they made their way back into the UK.
Of course, Dev might have withdrawn parole, but quite aside from the extra cost of confining and guarding British POW's etc, he knew his country was completely dependent on the UK for its own sustenance.

World War 2 Fire Brigades of Counties Dublin and Louth rush to the aid of Belfast during its air-raid bombings.

As a humanitarian act (to aid people whom the ROI claimed to be its own citizens, after all!), this could not reasonably be interpreted as an act of war which would compromise the ROI's neutrality.

World War 2 German spies arrested by Gardaí.

Wow!
Sovereign Government arrests foreign spies operating on its territory. Whatever next? 

Bullshite that we were neutral in World War 2.

Insofar as the Irish Government leaned more towards the Allies than the Axis, this was nor from choice, but rather from force of circumstance, or even outright duress.

Personally, I feel it morally reprehensible that any Government should seek to steer some sort of middle course between a democratic Allied coalition and the Third Reich. The fact that they were dependent upon the Allies for their own very survival makes it even worse.

P.S. In researching this post, I came across the minor curiosity that on its release, Charlie Chaplin's masterpiece, "The Great Dictator", was banned in Nazi-occupied Europe, certain South American Fascist dictatorships, and, ahem, the Irish Republic.
Well, we can't be upsetting old Adolph, can we? 


* - An "interesting" character, Hempel. After the War ended, the victorious Allies demanded that all overseas German diplomats be sent back to occupied Germany for investigation. The ROI was one of just two European countries which refused to comply (the other was the Vatican, btw). Eventually, after three years of asylum in the ROI, Hempel went back to the new (civil-administered) West Germany. He took with him a most complimentary reference from Dev, which allowed him to pass the WG Government's de-Nazification programme. Inter alia, this reference stated:
"Dr. Hempel always appeared to me as a man of intelligence, refined education, manners and complete honesty. Whilst he fulfilled his duty to his country with zeal, he conducted himself in conformity with the best traditions of the diplomatic service and did not act in any way as a propagandist for the National Socialist view of the world.".

Yet susbsequent investigation reveals that Hempel was not all Dev claimed him to be. For not only had he joined the Nazi Party before the war, but he was also a Lieutenant-Colonel in the SS. And being in the Diplomatic Corps, he was not just any old SS Obersturmbannfuhrer. There is evidence that he was actually part of the SD, Heydrich's Security Arm of the SS. As one of Heydrich's agents, Hempel will have been charged with spying on behalf of the SS, which could explain why Hempel was awarded the War Merit Cross, 1st and 2nd Class - apparently most unusual had he been a mere diplomat in a minor and Neutral country.
Still, I'm sure this "intelligent" and "refined" man, who was in no way "a propagandist for the National Socialist view of the world" would have been suitably embarrassed had he found he shared this honour with the likes of Adoplh Eichmann, Albert Speer and William "Lord Haw Haw" Joyce...

[gallsman]

Personally, I feel it morally reprehensible that any Government should seek to steer some sort of middle course between a democratic Allied coalition and the Third Reich. The fact that they were dependent upon the Allies for their own very survival makes it even worse.

While I largely agree with what you say and constantly laugh at MGHU's defence of anything any government of the 26 counties has done, it could be reasonably argued that getting into bed with Stalin was just as bad, could it not?

[Evil Genius]

Personally, I feel it morally reprehensible that any Government should seek to steer some sort of middle course between a democratic Allied coalition and the Third Reich. The fact that they were dependent upon the Allies for their own very survival makes it even worse.

While I largely agree with what you say and constantly laugh at MGHU's defence of anything any government of the 26 counties has done, it could be reasonably argued that getting into bed with Stalin was just as bad, could it not?

Except that when the UK and France etc declared war on Germany for invading their ally, Poland, in 1939, the USSR was not involved.

In fact, the USSR had not long signed a mutual Non-Agression Pact with Germany and so was neutral* at the outbreak of the war against the Nazis.

In fact, he Pact had been cynically negotiated for Hitler with a credulous Stalin, in order to buy Germany time whilst they built up their forces and dealt with Britain and France. As soon as he felt ready (1940), Hitler tore it up and launched Operation Barbarossa against the USSR, leaving a stunned Stalin to bring the USSR into the war.

At which turn of events, what would you say ther Allies should have done? Ask Stalin to stop fighting so as to keep their own cause unsullied? Or merely pretend that the USSR weren't actually in the war?



* - Just like the Irish Republic... 

[gallsman]

Personally, I feel it morally reprehensible that any Government should seek to steer some sort of middle course between a democratic Allied coalition and the Third Reich. The fact that they were dependent upon the Allies for their own very survival makes it even worse.

While I largely agree with what you say and constantly laugh at MGHU's defence of anything any government of the 26 counties has done, it could be reasonably argued that getting into bed with Stalin was just as bad, could it not?

Except that when the UK and France etc declared war on Germany for invading their ally, Poland, in 1939, the USSR was not involved.

In fact, the USSR had not long signed a mutual Non-Agression Pact with Germany and so was neutral* at the outbreak of the war against the Nazis.

In fact, he Pact had been cynically negotiated for Hitler with a credulous Stalin, in order to buy Germany time whilst they built up their forces and dealt with Britain and France. As soon as he felt ready (1940), Hitler tore it up and launched Operation Barbarossa against the USSR, leaving a stunned Stalin to bring the USSR into the war.

At which turn of events, what would you say ther Allies should have done? Ask Stalin to stop fighting so as to keep their own cause unsullied? Or merely pretend that the USSR weren't actually in the war?



* - Just like the Irish Republic... 

Thanks for the history lesson.

How Machiavellian of you.

[Farrandeelin]

I think we're neutral in name only.

[gallsman]

I think we're neutral in name only.

Perhaps that's part of the problem.